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Personablue

Member
Feb 10, 2019
1,227
Byleth, Corrin are a new type of protagonist in the Fire Emblem series. Before avatar characters, if present, played a side character role but in the last two games (excluding echoes) they were themselves the protagonist. The Ike and Black Knight rivalry was very personal, Ike followed Black knight to avenge his father's death and BK wanted to defeat Ike at his prime to prove something to himself, they constantly exchange words, and their last fight in Radiant Dawn was something else, unlike the fail attempt of Death knight and Byleth. Ike's reaction to his father death were 100 times more expressive, while Byleth forgot about his father's death a few chapters later. The point I am trying to make is that my making the protagonist the unvoiced avatar, the story takes a great toll. Byleth, Corrin will be certainly less remembered than Marth or Ike. Your opinion Era?
Black-Knight-let-Ike-live.png
 
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Iyagovos

Verified
Jan 18, 2018
198
I don't think Byleth is the protagonist at all in Three Houses. I think Edel, Dimitri and Claude are the main characters of their games, and we're just there to guide them, in a similar way to Robin in Awakening.
 

Lord Vatek

Banned
Jan 18, 2018
21,507
I'd say Corrin is better than Byleth and will definitely be remembered. If not for the same reasons.
 

ggdeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
758
I agree. Unvoiced self inserts are boring and I wish we would go back to having the lords themselves be the protagonists.
 
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Personablue

Personablue

Member
Feb 10, 2019
1,227
I don't think Byleth is the protagonist at all in Three Houses. I think Edel, Dimitri and Claude are the main characters of their games, and we're just there to guide them, in a similar way to Robin in Awakening.
Byleth is bestowed the sword of creator, he is often told multiple times in the story that he is the Savior, the story is seen through his eyes, that makes him the protagonist. Robin was quite different in awakening.
 

Ramsay

Member
Jul 2, 2019
3,621
Australia
I'd say Corrin is better than Byleth and will definitely be remembered. If not for the same reasons.
Byleth is uninteresting, but he/she's inoffensive, and the game doesn't place that much focus on him (it definitely feels like Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude were more important to the plot, similar to Robin in the first two acts of Awakening). He/She, at the very least, doesn't drastically undermine the plot like Robin and Corrin did. Corrin was way worse, as nothing important in Fates could exist without revolving around him. This, combined with his/her's idiocy in Fates ended up ruining what could have been a great story.
 
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CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
I agree on Byleth, whose characterization being "I literally have no personality" feels stiff and weird.

Corrin though has a complete characterization. Problem is that Corrin's character is complete shit. Worst protag in the series.

Marth has a pretty thin characterization too though. Ike is solid, but trying to drag Marth into this kinda just tells me you've got a bias.
 

Lord Vatek

Banned
Jan 18, 2018
21,507
Byleth is uninteresting, but he/she's inoffensive, and the game doesn't place that much focus on him (he's more like Robin in the first two acts of Awakening). Corrin was way worse, as nothing important in Fates could exist without revolving around him. This, combined with his/her's idiocy in Fates ended up ruining what could have been a great story.
I'll take a bad character over an emotionless pile of plot devices.
 

Xavi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,771
Lightning for Smash
In defense of Byleth, they didn't forget about Jeralt. They play the sad music and Byleth makes a sad expression when choosing an activity until the timeskip hits, also there's a plot reason why Byleth is so emotionless
 

Sterok

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,083
Corrin and Robin are fully fleshed out protagonists and characters with established histories and relationships on par or even exceeding the other static lords. When Robin chooses to sacrifice themselves, or Corrin has to fight their family to death, the emotions and meanings of those actions are on full display, regardless of whatever you think the writing quality is. They may be customizable, but they're not silent player inserts. Especially Corrin.

Byleth is a whole separate matter, but there is still a semblance of character buried behind that mute stare.
 

Gearkeeper 8A

Member
Oct 27, 2017
616
Lol marth is your "generic" lord as much as I like this design, in fact very few fire emblem lord are unique, why you think ike is the most popular one
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
It's nothing new. Fire Emblem 7 on GBA also had a self insert character. Although they rarely appeared on screen.
 

Zache

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,776
Byleth and Corrin aren't even being worth called characters. It'll never be a contest.
I never actually played Fates but I was under the impression Corrin wasn't a complete blank state like Byleth and that they were full characters like Robin, just customizable.

Like I can't even fathom a female and male Byleth support convo like this
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,459
This is a weird take, considering Byleth isn't the lord of their game, and so is not very comparable to someone like Ike.

That comparison should be reserved for Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude -- who are all better characters than Ike, IMO. (Which speaks to the quality of Three Houses' lords' characterization, since Ike was one of the best pre-3H lords.)

Marth, though? Marth is not interesting in the slightest.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,348
Lol marth is your "generic" lord as much as I like this design, in fact very few fire emblem lord are unique, why you think ike is the most popular one

Ike got more votes than any other lord (albeit split over his two versions) in Fe heroes cyl 1, which is the only official international poll we have to go with. Ike probably is the most popular lord, at least prior to three houses, despite his games not selling that well, which is a bit weird.


Byleth not having a voiced set of lines, both for story and supports in game is probably the biggest blemish in three houses.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,316
The Stussining
The English voice actor for the young male corrin voice is Cam Clarke. Which means Corrin is voice acted by Liquid Snake. I love Ike but he can get fucked my boy Liquid Snake is in Fire Emblem by proxy.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,927
I agree but now that the waifu stuff is such a huge draw, avatars are here to stay. At least Three Houses had the good sense to properly flesh out the house leaders as the real protagonists.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
I never actually played Fates but I was under the impression Corrin wasn't a complete blank state like Byleth and that they were full characters like Robin, just customizable.

Like I can't even fathom a female and male Byleth support convo like this
You're correct. People who say Corrin is a non-character are letting their hate of Fates affect their memory. Corrin's characterization is actually fairly thorough. That's not Corrin's problem.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,099
Byleth is bestowed the sword of creator, he is often told multiple times in the story that he is the Savior, the story is seen through his eyes, that makes him the protagonist. Robin was quite different in awakening.

I dont think the sword of the creator bit is relevant, the sword does nothing. Is not a "choosen one" sword or anything. It isnt specifically designed to kill the big bad evil either, it doesnt even get bonus damage to any relevant story boss in the GD route. Heck he isnt the only one that can potentially use it and get all benefits
 
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Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,764
Byleth is more an avatar for the player since you're the one making the choices and he has often replies to someone's life story with an "OK." and the same hand gesture every time without any expression. It's a bit weird when they address this in the story when they mention Byleth never laughed or smiled.

I'm fine with this in most cases but when you do a game that's heavily focused on a deep story and make interactions and characters interacting with you the main focus it stands out like a sore thumb, especially when everyone including the faceless dudes are voiced but the only voice lines he has when he does faculty training. Adding VO to the few lines he/she has wouldn't be too much.
 

udivision

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,031
The silent protagonist thing just gets less appealing overtime. Also depends on the game of course.
 

Renteka-Bond

Chicken Chaser
Member
Dec 28, 2017
4,259
Clearwater, Florida
Byleth is worse for being the double whammy of being a bland self insert AND not being customizable. If I'm being honest, I only ever used him because his stat growths were really good and he's mandatory on every story mission.

I also only used the guy because you can't marry Manuela as a girl, though I'm not overly fond of either of their designs.
 

Deleted member 49438

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 7, 2018
1,473
Byleth is just "Mark the Tactician" from FE7 if he were a godly mercenary known as the Ashen Demon. Lords talk to Mark in FE7 as well, looking directly at the player when addressing "Mark." The protagonists have typically always been the lord characters, but Awakening & Fates kind of bucked that trend by leaning harder into the self-insert stuff.
 

Gearkeeper 8A

Member
Oct 27, 2017
616
Ike got more votes than any other lord (albeit split over his two versions) in Fe heroes cyl 1, which is the only official international poll we have to go with. Ike probably is the most popular lord, at least prior to three houses, despite his games not selling that well, which is a bit weird.
Probably because he is the only lord that got 2 games that weren't remakes, and it helps that in these two games are well liked not to mention how ike is different from other lords in the series.
 
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Personablue

Personablue

Member
Feb 10, 2019
1,227
Byleth is just "Mark the Tactician" from FE7 if he were a godly mercenary known as the Ashen Demon. Lords talk to Mark in FE7 as well, looking directly at the player when addressing "Mark." The protagonists have typically always been the lord characters, but Awakening & Fates kind of bucked that trend by leaning harder into the self-insert stuff.
The problem is Byleth is given significance in the story, his half hearted rivalry with death knight, his petty story sections, his emotionless, expressionless state dampens the tone while Mark in Fe7 was harmless
 

Cipher Peon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,796
Ike > Corrin > Byleth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marth

Marth is by far the worst lord in the entire series imo. I love Ike and Corrin, not super crazy about Byleth.
I like having the avatars, but definitely wish Byleth was more of an agent in the story of Three Houses.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Man the lack of imagination you guys have, when you get so agitated over a very static narrative format with a silent protagonist. Why can't people just project themselves into the character they play? Is that honestly so hard?
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
This is a weird take, considering Byleth isn't the lord of their game, and so is not very comparable to someone like Ike.

That comparison should be reserved for Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude -- who are all better characters than Ike, IMO. (Which speaks to the quality of Three Houses' lords' characterization, since Ike was one of the best pre-3H lords.)

Marth, though? Marth is not interesting in the slightest.
Pretty much. Marth is popular because he was the first FE protagonist, but his characterization was always thin. And the true Lords of the game are the house leaders while Byleth is the Avatar protagonist. Byleth does have similarities to Ike in terms of their history and the nature of their fathers, but that's about the extent of how far those two can be directly compared.

The fairest comparison for Byleth is to put them up against other Avatars. I did this a few days ago in the OT and will just copy/paste into here for convenience.

Kiran (Heroes)
Kiran is literally an isekai protagonist with zero personality and a barely-there presence in the story, with next to no customization to speak of. They're present as the stand-in for the player in this goofy crossover mobile game and that's about it.

Mark (The Blazing Blade)
Mark was created as an avatar for the player given that The Blazing Blade was written with series newcomers firmly in mind. That being said, their presence in the story is barely above Kiran's, their sole physical presence in the game is a map sprite with no definition, and their characterization is that they're a tactician that just happened to meet Lyn one day. You can give Mark a name, gender, and a birth month (or a blood type in the Japanese version), but that's about it. Their ending is, however, dependent on how skilled you are at the game.

Kris (New Mystery of the Emblem)
I actually don't know much about Kris since I never played New Mystery, other than the fact that they're the prototype for Robin and Corrin. I'm not sure that New Mystery needed an avatar unit inserted into it, but on the other hand, Shadow Dragon was bland and lacking in basically every improvement it desperately needed and that New Mystery got.

Corrin (Fates)
Corrin Discourse has been completely and utterly exhausted to the point that all that's left is an abandoned strip mine, and the less that this thread gets derailed by more Fates talk, the better. That being said, Corrin's default appearances stand out and the attempt at making an avatar the actual lead was an interesting idea even if it was complete sabotaged by the general quality of the writing. But Corrin is also one of the best and most unique FE characters in Smash, so they've got that going for them.

Robin (Awakening)
Robin exists in that weird space where they're just as customizable as Corrin and play a vital role in the story, but without actually being the lead. And this is despite the fact that the game's actual lead (Chrom) is comparatively dull. Robin is an interesting character, but like Mark, is a tactician of inexplicable talent despite being found in the middle of a field with amnesia. Robin is entertaining and easily the best of any of the previously stated characters, but there are elements that just feel too convenient (and also, there's time travel involved that gets convoluted if you think about it too much).

So why is Byleth better than any of these characters? For me, it comes down to the full combination of their presentation, personality, history, and interaction. And yes, I realize that Byleth is a mostly silent protagonist cut from cloth similar to that of Persona and other JRPG characters. You can't customize them beyond name and birth date, they don't have voiced dialogue outside of battle or increasing skills through tutoring, and why in the fuck would the church name a mercenary barely over two decades old an academy professor?

But it really becomes clear why things are the way that they are the more you learn about Byleth. Because Byleth basically, would not be alive if it weren't for actions Rhea had taken in transferring Sothis's Crest stone from the heart of their mother to their own heart. They were a still born baby, and even after their revival don't have a heartbeat or a capability for strong emotion. Byleth is a broken person caught between Rhea's desire to see Sothis and Jeralt's unknowing fear of what Rhea had done, not realizing that Byleth would otherwise be dead. So they end up getting raised by Jeralt as a mercenary. An effective one with a reputation and appropriate nickname to go along with it.

Byleth is just such a strange, tragic character because of who they are. They aren't the heir to some peculiar invisible kingdom or the alternate timeline version of an ancient Fell Dragon's vessel that's actually with the good guys. Byleth is a vessel for the progenitor god, sure, but that status comes with a lot of personal costs to them in addition to the benefits. Robin can kill their alternate timeline self no problem and come back from it with no issue, and Corrin is too perfect. Even after coming into their full power, Byleth is a weird doll-person whose choices always result in tragedy because there is no timeline in which they can save everyone (even if you try to game the system and recruit as many students as you can). The continent would be absolutely fucked without Byleth, but in no case do their decisions result in a magical cure-all.

My take at the end of the day is that, as far as Avatar characters go, and this includes all of them dating back to FE7's Mark, Byleth is easily the best, or at least the one that I like most, and who also fits into why Three Houses is easily the best of any of those games when it comes to their place in and the overall quality of the narrative.
 

Deleted member 49438

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 7, 2018
1,473
The problem is Byleth is given significance in the story, his half hearted rivalry with death knight, his petty story sections, his emotionless, expressionless state dampens the tone while Mark in Fe7 was harmless

I disagree. The Death Knight has a bone to pick with Byleth for some reason, but it doesn't seem to go the other way. I think the Byleth is the natural evolution of the Mark character, and haven't felt like the character has detracted from the game at all 160 hours in. It would be great if they were fully voice acted or something, but if anything I think Byleth fits the tone of the game pretty well.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,616
Marth was just the Lord of the first Fire Emblem, and will always be a part of Smash Bros (since Melee).

That's all he's got going for him. But that's definitely enough for people to hold him in high regard as a character.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Man the lack of imagination you guys have, when you get so agitated over a very static narrative format with a silent protagonist. Why can't people just project themselves into the character they play? Is that honestly so hard?
Some people find that boring

And not being able to customize hurts the boring
 
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mjc

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,879
FE needs to do away with silent player-ghost main characters and go back to Ike and Marth for sure, you always lose something that way.
 

Lord Azrael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
Not sure why you brought Corrin into this. Well Corrin is shitty, but s/he is a fully fleshed out character. And it doesn't matter that Byleth can't carry the story by him/herself when you've also got Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude and the rest of the cast. Most of which are better than the nothing side characters in most other Fire Emblem games.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
or even Chrom, im no big fan of these Avatar main characters either, at least they get the job done
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,499
Earth, 21st Century
Mute protagonists are terrible.

Even worse when they don't commit to it.

Venom Snake

Joker

BotW Link

Byleth

All of these characters have speaking lines at some point in their game but are also basically dolls that barely react to their world.

It's the worst modern design trope and I absolutely hate it.

Even this guy (Luminary, DQXI) talks in a flashback, with a distinct personality!!

Denh-GBU0AE826i.jpg


All of these characters have defined personalities as seen through dialogue choices (sometimes with there only being ONE dialogue "choice," the dumbest thing of all), play an important role in their world, have other characters regularly interact with them and their personalities, and, most baffling of all, are mostly leaders who are supposed to be charismatic.

The original excuse for the silent protagonist was that it was supposed to be "us," the player, taking their shoes. Now they half-ass that idea while making us a very specific, defined character who talks but also doesn't.
 

YaBish

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,340
I see Byleth specifically as an attempt to put a face on the tactician pc that you were in the older games. In 3H Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude are the protagonists so far as I am concerned.

I don't think their stories would be as fleshed out as they are if Byleth was more involved in the politics of 3H

Edit:
The original excuse for the silent protagonist was that it was supposed to be "us," the player, taking their shoes. Now they half-ass that idea while making us a very specific, defined character who talks but also doesn't.
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Byleth is bestowed the sword of creator, he is often told multiple times in the story that he is the Savior, the story is seen through his eyes, that makes him the protagonist. Robin was quite different in awakening.

Byleth isn't the main character though. Sure, you get some emphasis put on you at the beginning but by chapter 10 when it all goes to shit, the focus switches strongly to the lord you follow. It's the lord that's the most important part of that story, not you.
 

Kouriozan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,067
Much like Xenoblade X, you avatar is not the main character of the game.
Hence why you help one of the house leader and the story is focused on that one.
 

YaBish

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,340
I actually appreciate that 3H is more of a third-person narrative. There aren't enough games like that.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Some people find that boring

And not being able to customize hurts the boring
To be honest, I found the customization of Robin and Corrin superfluous, and the need to constantly frame cutscenes from their POV to mask their custom character features isn't nearly as good as actually seeing Byleth act.