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Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,894
User Banned (1 Day): Inflammatory Generalization
If people can convince themselves that a magical being created the universe and looks down upon us expecting worship and adoration, or face eternal damnation, then yes... I'm going to think they're deranged.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
Because game writers cater to people who think Rick and Morty is a sophisticated show. Also, the villain organization always being a Nazi metaphor is very tiresome.
Dismissing Rick and Morty as a show people only think is sophisticated must be some sort of passive-aggressive meme. I won't say it's the most cleverly written show ever, but it's nowhere close to the least. The sophistication of the meta-commentary on character tropes and story structure is well beyond the abilities of some random hack writer.
 

Maligna

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,802
Canada
Without religion, good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things.

It's takes something like religion to make otherwise good people do bad things.
 
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Grips

Member
Oct 5, 2020
4,929
Mainframe
I think the only game I know that represent muslims as regular people instead of the "muhammad jihad" caricature is Marvel Avengers.

Im not a religious person but it was sure overwhelming to see my culture and its religion being used in gaming as the #1 enemy for like 2 decades.
 

Gnorman

Banned
Jan 14, 2018
2,945
This thread got me thinking. I don't think I would play game where the protagonist was religious.
 

DemonFox

Member
Oct 29, 2017
220
Religion in and itself isn't a bad thing. It's just more often used as a reason to do bad things. And by that, I mean certain people twist and turn those believes in a way to manipulate people into thinking they are doing something for the greater good. That's an incredible easy and sometimes kind of lazy way to give an antagonist motivation. Of course they are also those "edgy" atheist who think they are real smart for saying "religion is the reason for all conflict. It's your believe that's destroying the world and you are an idiot for believing in a God."

I'm an atheist as well but I would never make fun of someone who believes in God.
And everyone here saying that relegion is the cause for most of the fighting are not fair to themselves. It's not religion. God didn't say to kill each other. It's people who are using God as a justification to do this. If it weren't for religion they would find another reason. It's just that this is easiest way to create conflict.
As for why videogames don't have more devout people in it? I don't know. How would you make that interesting from a gameplay perspective? Most people just believe in God and that's that. They don't walk around making it incredibly obvious. Would you want to see your Character go to church or pray everytime something happens? I can imagine it's hard to do that without making it kind of tedious or obnoxious.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,449
Ireland
I was trying to think of examples of games where churches and religions are shown in a positive light rather than fronts of something evil that gets revealed later in the game and Breath of Fire 2 was one of the few that came to mind. Although I didn't finish it so thought it best to check the wiki about it and whoops maybe not!

I guess there's always Harvest Moon
 

YellowBara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,066
It's easy to make a villain or general antagonistic character that is unable to be reasoned with, bigoted, or generally extreme in their actions and willingness to commit atrocities by pinning them to religion.

History has shown this as a common thread and it makes an easy to understand shorthand for character intention and storytelling. Doesn't seem that unclear to me.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
This thread got me thinking. I don't think I would play game where the protagonist was religious.
In FE Three Houses you have the choice to abondon the church and be part of that kingdom you choose the be mentor of in the beginning of the game.
I would always choose to not be part of a church.
 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,804
If people can convince themselves that a magical being created the universe and looks down upon us expecting worship and adoration, or face eternal damnation, then yes... I'm going to think they're deranged.

Indoctrination, regardless of belief system, is a powerful thing. A lot of people don't have a choice in the matter.
 

Graven

Member
Oct 30, 2018
4,095
Religion simply isn't necessary.

I would suggest folks do everything they can in their individual communities to reduce the spread of religion as much as possible. This includes not donating to, or through, religious institutions. It also includes educating your sons/daughters friends who may be being mislead as well. Let them know that god is not real or welcome.

Feel like the question in the title kind of answers itself, OP.

Impressive how these are allowed to fly by here.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,779
The video game industry historically has not had a very good relationship with religion. These groups spent the 90's and early 00's trying to get games tossed into the gutter so understand that the best impressions aren't going to be there.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Some of the most complicated portrayals of faith in video games I've seen have been in Dragon Age series were you have multiple characters that have faith , and they aren't one dimensional, have good parts and bad parts and also the religion has good parts and bad parts were it was used to discriminate against others , and the series does not gloss over those parts and nor do the religious characters who have times when they question their faith as well. Shame there's not more games like it as it's still mainly focused on the Chantry in game which is heavily influenced by Christianity and games should have more good portrayals of different religions. I do remember there's a good character who's a Buddhist monk in Ghost of Tsushima that I remember finding good?
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,008
This thread got me thinking. I don't think I would play game where the protagonist was religious.
As a very irreligious person I would, but there are few topics that could make me more indifferent than some superstition based motives of the player character. Since I play almost exclusively for gameplay it would probably not hurt my enjoyment much.
 

Trode

Member
Mar 27, 2018
310
Astronomy was something of major importance in the Middle Ages. A good understanding of astronomy was necessary for calculating the changing date of Easter, the most important holiday in the Christian calendar. Theologians such as Bede built upon Easter tables from Late Antiquity and developed sophisticated computation methods for calculating Easter that acknowledged the Spherical nature of the Earth and utilised mathematics and sequencing. Going back earlier, astronomers have used the precise astrolonomical observations of comets within the Irish annals to more reliably predict when they appear. And after the 12th century, the re-emergence of the astrolabe and then the creation of the Rectangulus allowed for a more sophisticated understanding of astronomy and thus more precise measurements of time. To conclude, there was a vigorous scientific engagement with astronomy throughout the Middle Ages that was anything but stagnant.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,000
UK
Religion is a quick and easy way to give motivation to characters/a group to do awful things, mainly because there is a lot of history where people do evil things in the name of religion

That said, it can be done really poorly and when that is the case it should be criticised.

I was trying to think of examples of games where churches and religions are shown in a positive light rather than fronts of something evil that gets revealed later in the game

The church/religion in Trails of Cold Steel is not evil/a front for evil
 

CaptainDreads

Member
Nov 7, 2017
232
If I had to guess it's because in many contexts a for "regular" religious person their religion is not a particularly noteworthy important detail for the story, and thus isn't shown.
If someone has good morals I don't think an audience necessarily expects a justification. Unless it's crucial to the plot _why_ someone is neutral/good it's just the default we expect of everyone.

The extremes is where you get the interesting stories.
This person/people is evil because of their fanatical devotion to religion/money/power is a much better story.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,402
Germany
People having faith in whatever they want is fine.
The moment organized religion happens, it leads to power structures, control, abuse of control, indoctrination, "othering" etc...
That's why it is shown like that so often cause it has been and is used like that throughout history.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
Impressive how these are allowed to fly by here.
I mean... why not? Religious people use their platforms and voices to convince others of their teachings, wile those in disdain user theirs. As long as nobody get's harmed or oppressed in any way I persdonally think this is ok. Also the second quote is kinda right. Cause OP it talking about religious fanatics.
 

Selphie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,713
The Netherlands
Because religions are organizations, the biggest organizations of them all. So they make a good blueprint for people who want to put in a big evil organisation in their game world, they are based on the fact that those giant groups do exist in the real world, not on the fact that they are evil.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I was trying to think of examples of games where churches and religions are shown in a positive light rather than fronts of something evil that gets revealed later in the game and Breath of Fire 2 was one of the few that came to mind. Although I didn't finish it so thought it best to check the wiki about it and whoops maybe not!

I guess there's always Harvest Moon
I was quite surprised by the religion in Octopath Traveller, I expected the usual JRPG twist of the religion being evil but it actually was genuinely good and beneficial to all the characters throughout unless I missed something.
Dragon Quest XI and the builders games are the only ones I've played of that series and they all seemed to be the same too
 

Graven

Member
Oct 30, 2018
4,095
sure but we don't need to think of hypotheticals when in the real world religion does exist and is responsible for most of the violence we see

Then we do not live in the same world, money is and always have been the name of the game, that's the main source of the atrocities that have been happening since ever.

Specially considering that violence is not just someone putting a gun to your face. Working people to the bone(including children) for profit, human traffic, sexual exploitation etc. follow the trail and it's always about the money.
 

Embedded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
616
Normal religious people are those who do not live their everyday life by their religion's rules.
They are as religious as i am vegan, and i am eating bacon as i type. The difference is they still for some reason say that they believe in God and they are followers of X religion.

Those people though, who suppress their needs and wants because their imaginary friend say so, are usually the kind of people who are defined by their religious beliefs.

So to answer your question, i believe that if a game's world includes religion as our world does, most NPCs are religious but you do not listen to them saying it because they are the "normal" ones.
 

dstarMDA

Member
Dec 22, 2017
4,289
If people can convince themselves that a magical being created the universe and looks down upon us expecting worship and adoration, or face eternal damnation, then yes... I'm going to think they're deranged.
Please try not to be so close-minded. This is a very insulting, ignorant thing to say.

This forum is as progressive as you can find on the internet regarding gaming but it's still way too comfortable with tolerating bigoted things like this.

Normal religious people are those who do not live their everyday life by their religion's rules.
They are as religious as i am vegan, and i am eating bacon as i type. The difference is they still for some reason say that they believe in God and they are followers of X religion.

Those people though, who suppress their needs and wants because their imaginary friend say so, are usually the kind of people who are defined by their religious beliefs.

So to answer your question, i believe that if a game's world includes religion as our world does, most NPCs are religious but you do not listen to them saying it because they are the "normal" ones.
Same thing - I'm appalled to read things like this around here (and I'm an atheist myself).
 

JavelinR

Member
Mar 1, 2018
286
A lot of non-religious conflicts are inexplicably glorified by history, even today, no matter how petty the reason for fighting. The Church is one of the very few bodies who recognize its past conflicts as bad, which to some has been stretched to mean most conflicts in the world come from religion. The truth is most evil stems from resource desires or tribal mentalities. Religion may often be used as a way to justify something the justifier wanted to do anyway, but what a lot of people miss is that if not for religion some other excuse would be created. There is also a lot of good religion has done in the past thats worth exploring through games, but I'm not brave enough to try and argue with a place like Era about that
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,000
UK
This thread got me thinking. I don't think I would play game where the protagonist was religious.

In a medium where you can play as a purple fire breathing dragon, an anthropomorphic bandicoot, the literal God of war, a collection of dead cells that have been reanimated, an astro bot, morally despicable war criminal CoD protagonists, MMO catboys, sentient rectangles, super sonic hedgehogs and white wolf gods, it seems really weird to me that a character with religious faith would be too unbelievable to deal with

I'm an atheist as well but I wouldn't have any issues playing as a character who isn't (Unless the game itself was religious propaganda)

If someone told me Leon from Resi 4 believes in God, that literally makes no difference to anything lol
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,662
USA
I'd imagine that most characters that you pass in a game are religious because they make up the majority. Most religious people are boring every day people, they just don't talk about it all day long.
 

Naner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,012
A lot of people (obviously not all) who make religion a central point of their personal identity are often extremists, in the sense that they are unwilling to consider an alternative to their way of thought, or are dumb, in the sense that they have not thought that maybe an alternative exists. So these are the religious people most likely to go overboard in their beliefs and become a villain of some sort. This could also apply for other types of extremists, not only religious.

There are plenty of religious protagonists (they believe in something), but that's rarely a central point of their character development, partly because it wouldn't make an interesting narrative, and because it would make it seem like the game is pandering to one group or another.

There are also plenty of games that depict one religion or more as something that actually exists within its canon.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
Religious people are just like other people. They just live a bigger lie and often think others should live that same lie. This has been done with violent oppression and sadistic force for decades and is still going on in parts of the world.
 
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astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,864
Most videogames are not known for the finesse of their stories and characters - usually it's caricatural and painted in broad strokes.
If you look at this forum and the internet - everything is sorted in 2 categories without any gradation in between : Love / Hate or Best of all time / Worst of all time.

Also games usually need a quick way to excuse and justify all the murders you commit in gameplay so an extremist is an easy choice.

But also if you just look at past and present history, religions have been and still are the source of many wars, backwards thinking, genocides, homophobia and transphobia, oppression...

I don't doubt there are genuinely good religious people, but from my experience as a 50 years old Gay man ; religious people around me always were bigots, racists and often related to the far right politics. And usually hypocrites who were bad people masquerading as pious on sundays...
The funny thing is that this post is the very hyperbole it is seemingly pointing out.

There is a lot of blunt binary bullshit on this forum, but there are many posters who consistently have nuanced discussion, same with the internet.

I know you were making a point, but it just reads amusingly. :p

Agree with the rest of your post completely.
 

Wulfram

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,478
The Chantry in Dragon Age is fairly nuanced, I think. And DnD settings and their imitators have good gods and evil gods and religions both.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
In a medium where you can play as a purple fire breathing dragon, an anthropomorphic bandicoot, the literal God of war, a collection of dead cells that have been reanimated, an astro bot, morally despicable war criminal CoD protagonists, MMO catboys, sentient rectangles, super sonic hedgehogs and white wolf gods, it seems really weird to me that a character with religious faith would be too unbelievable to deal with

I'm an atheist as well but I wouldn't have any issues playing as a character who isn't (Unless the game itself was religious propaganda)

If someone told me Leon from Resi 4 believes in God, that literally makes no difference to anything lol
Yeah I wouldn't have a problem with it unless it was a dialogue heavy game and it influenced the characters choices (or if it was like a Persona game and I had to go to church every Sunday haha)
 

psychedelic

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,317
I'm playing Ace Attorney: Spirit of Justice right now and there's a religious community with hospitable side-characters in it.

Obviously games won't incorporate real religions to portray good or bad people, because that would evoke unwarranted reactions from a lot of people, which would overshadow the rest of the game.

Also, I don't see how strong protagonists can be defined by their religion; even if it's a fictional religion within the game world. I feel like all character building would be negated if all actions of a main character are dictated by a religion.
 

Jane

Member
Oct 17, 2018
1,251
Most stories need a villain, and an evil cult or religious order is a good an option as any. I mean, evil warlords and CEOs also are also very common in fiction and not necessarily accurate to real life, because you need an evil villain to have conflict and drama. And like many people have already said, there are many, many games where religion is portrayed neutrally or positively.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,000
UK
Yeah I wouldn't have a problem with it unless it was a dialogue heavy game and it influenced the characters choices (or if it was like a Persona game and I had to go to church every Sunday haha)

Dragon Age: Orgins lets you either praise the Maker (God, in the games universe) or say you don't believe in the Maker, which was pretty cool

I can't think of any other games where you're basically able to decide if you believe in God or not
 

MiDoZ

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
828
Astronomy was something of major importance in the Middle Ages. A good understanding of astronomy was necessary for calculating the changing date of Easter, the most important holiday in the Christian calendar. Theologians such as Bede built upon Easter tables from Late Antiquity and developed sophisticated computation methods for calculating Easter that acknowledged the Spherical nature of the Earth and utilised mathematics and sequencing. Going back earlier, astronomers have used the precise astrolonomical observations of comets within the Irish annals to more reliably predict when they appear. And after the 12th century, the re-emergence of the astrolabe and then the creation of the Rectangulus allowed for a more sophisticated understanding of astronomy and thus more precise measurements of time. To conclude, there was a vigorous scientific engagement with astronomy throughout the Middle Ages that was anything but stagnant.
What about this?
en.m.wikipedia.org

Galileo affair - Wikipedia

 

Graven

Member
Oct 30, 2018
4,095
I mean... why not? Religious people use their platforms and voices to convince others of their teachings, wile those in disdain user theirs. As long as nobody get's harmed or oppressed in any way I persdonally think this is ok. Also the second quote is kinda right. Cause OP it talking about religious fanatics.
Why would they not be allowed?
Because they were generalizing?

But if that's ok, don't mind me, carry on.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,926
Then we do not live in the same world, money is and always have been the name of the game, that's the main source of the atrocities that have been happening since ever.

Specially considering that violence is not just someone putting a gun to your face. Working people to the bone(including children) for profit, human traffic, sexual exploitation etc. follow the trail and it's always about the money.
Atrocities have been happening since long before currency. Money is just a stand-in for the real struggle over power in general. A good way to hold onto power is to convince the people that you deserve it, and a good way to do that is to convince that it is not only moral that you have that power, but it is in fact your divine right.
 
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plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,631
A lot of non-religious conflicts are inexplicably glorified by history, even today, no matter how petty the reason for fighting. The Church is one of the very few bodies who recognize its past conflicts as bad, which to some has been stretched to mean most conflicts in the world come from religion. The truth is most evil stems from resource desires or tribal mentalities. Religion may often be used as a way to justify something the justifier wanted to do anyway, but what a lot of people miss is that if not for religion some other excuse would be created. There is also a lot of good religion has done in the past thats worth exploring through games, but I'm not brave enough to try and argue with a place like Era about that

Eh, i have seen people telling me Hitler reasoning was based on christianity. It's a narrowminded View and people that see behind that know, that religion is just taken as an excuse to do certain things.

Also agree with you on the last part. But these are brushed away or declared as "would have happened anyway, even earlier without religion".
 

Elog

Member
Oct 21, 2020
155
For truly bad things to happen there is a need for large organisations. We have fundamentally only three types of organisations in terms of motivation: Profit maximising (the 'corporation'), belief structure maximising organisations (religions) and power maximising organisations (political parties). All organisations can to some extent float back and forth between the three.

I do not really understand the OP since all three exist in computer games in equal measure as the evil antagonist - the evil corporation, the lunatic political group and the evil religious zealots. It does not mean that all corporations are evil, all political parties are evil or that all religions are evil.

However, the only one that is truly over represented in literature, movies and games is the evil corporation. In reality, evil corporations has accomplished close to zero evil deeds compared to political and religious movements.
 

Elephant

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,786
Nottingham, UK
Video games have come at a time of a cultural shift where the perception of religion is becoming more and more pessimistic.

That being said, we get games like Hades and God of War dealing with the cool religions. Balls to all the modern day cults who can't even agree on which version of their own faith to follow.
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
I was trying to think of examples of games where churches and religions are shown in a positive light rather than fronts of something evil that gets revealed later in the game and Breath of Fire 2 was one of the few that came to mind. Although I didn't finish it so thought it best to check the wiki about it and whoops maybe not!

I guess there's always Harvest Moon
Strangely enough the religion in 40k, despite being deeply corrupt and against any sort of modern day morality serves to give humans the mental strength to avoid the corruption of chaos. Humans are a giant fascistic, theocratic, feudalistic nightmare civilization in that world and will regularly commit genocide in the name of their religion while holding back their own technological development with it but the ones that abandon their faith become even worse.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,302
If you're going to make a game about oppressors who believe they're doing the right thing by oppressing minorities... Then making the villains religious makes complete sense. The vast majority of games OP is talking about were made by developers from in countries where religion has a heavy history of extreme oppression. That's going to influence the writers.
 
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