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krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,157
Gentrified Brooklyn
I am not surprised, that said it's kind of interesting to see that racism is the cause of 'the state' as opposed to the majority's own demands.

I mean, the slave trade looked pretty libertarian to me!
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,142
Every single libertarian I've ever met has been a selfish piece of shit who cares more about their own personal enrichment than the greater good of society at large.

Case in point, the teacher who introduced me to libertarian ideology in high school drove a fucking Alfa Romeo to and from school every day. The last person I want to hear about taxation from is a man who drives a $2 million car to and from a public school in NH every single morning.
How did teacher get that much money lol
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Let's not pretend there are smart Libertarians out there now. They are just fascist-lite that don't hold any actual positions with merit.

But if you believe in extremely limited government can you really be referred to as adjacent to fascism?

Libertarianism taken at face value sounds like it is adjacent to anarchism.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
But if you believe in extremely limited government can you really be referred to as adjacent to fascism?

Libertarianism taken at face value sounds like it is adjacent to anarchism.

That's the thing - just like Republicans, hypocrisy doesn't mean shit as long as minorities are shit on. They want limited government where it benefits the populace and they want a strong authoritarian to tell them what to do at the same time. Again, if there were smart Libertarians, we'd know by now.
 

xir

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,577
Los Angeles, CA
Libertarians take a very flat approach to common sense that's unstable
At any level beyond a kindergarten understanding. Cue the seatbelt clip
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
Libertarians are the right wing version of communists in my head.

Both have this utopia vision of society that is devoid of any realism or taking human nature into account.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,699
When and where, OP? Libertarians in my personal experience have been totally willing to let minorities suffer if the racism was coming from the "free market."
 

Sayuz

Member
Apr 29, 2019
954


I think there's a difference between an intellectual libertarian like someone who is a fellow at the CATO institute, and your run of the mill internet libertarian who does not want to seriously engage with ideas and consequences so they just say flippant, stupid shit and bow out of actually thinking critically about anything.


The point is that there is no real "libertarian ideology." Just like "liberalism," it's an umbrella term. In this case for a large collection of philosophies that all generally don't endorse authoritarian solutions for societal issues.

It's a spectrum that includes both Noam Chomsky and Milton Friedman. It also demonstrates how limited the prevailing binary political axis is.

I think this is a big problem with discussions about any kind of libertarianism. Most people only have a surface idea of what a libertarian is, thinking that loudmouth internet idiots who claim to be libertarian, while push Republican talking points and occasionally saying "But both parties suck", or agreeing with a pet peeve of theirs that the Libertarian Party also pushes for - drug decriminalization, legalizing prostitution, whatever - are the whole of the party, or of the philosophy.

But there's a lot more to it than what typically comes to mind for most people. Like how many self-described libertarians support universal basic income replacing the welfare system. Or how anti-war most libertarians are, and how critical they've been of the wars and bombings in the Middle East for the past 2 decades, which is the opposite of the mainstream Republican Party no matter what Trump might try to claim.

I think it's fair to say that all (real) libertarians start from the basic starting point of wanting less federal power, and more individual liberties, but the specifics start to get muddier from there depending on who you're discussing things with. Like, most want less restrictions at the borders, but not all of them want to abolish borders altogether.

Again, the video The Albatross posted really shows the trouble with our political system. If you're not center-right, you don't exist in our system. Really a great watch.

 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
Again, the video The Albatross posted really shows the trouble with our political system. If you're not center-right, you don't exist in our system. Really a great watch.



THat's a helpful video but... uhh... I didn't post it :D

I don't know how it got into my post you quoted, haha, but if you look at my post it's not there đź‘»
 

Sayuz

Member
Apr 29, 2019
954
THat's a helpful video but... uhh... I didn't post it :D

I don't know how it got into my post you quoted, haha, but if you look at my post it's not there đź‘»


I thought that was so weird that I didn't notice you had shared the same video I was about to when I posted my reply. So I quickly edited it in giving you credit, thinking I must've not noticed. I guess it got stuck in there on accident while I was editing it. Oops.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
I thought that was so weird that I didn't notice you had shared the same video I was about to when I posted my reply. So I quickly edited it in giving you credit, thinking I must've not noticed. I guess it got stuck in there on accident while I was editing it. Oops.

spooky ghosts doin spooky ghost shit
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,867
In my experience with the ones around here, if the government is doing it they will generally speak out. Not because they really care about racial issues, but because it is easy to use it as an example of how big government is bad.

I say that because when it is corporations doing the bullshit they are either silent or argue that it's just the "free market" and there is nothing racist about it.
 

Noog

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
May 1, 2018
2,867
True libertarianism is socially liberal but financially conservative. You can argue that those are mutually exclusive, but libertarians don't think so. They usually are good on social issues unlike, say, the average conservative, though many post-2016 libertarians are closeted conservatives
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
The problem with libertarianism, at least the American version, is that they prioritize businesses over individual rights. The idea that a business that refuses to serve minorities will just naturally go out of business because of the free market is some BS.

They don't tend to defend minorities when it comes to guns. Have we ever seen them address someone like Philando Castile?
 

nextJin

Member
Mar 17, 2018
455
Georgia
The fundamental base of libertarianism is limited government, individualism, peace, tolerance and free markets.

People usually say libertarians are socially liberal and economically conservative (ie best of both worlds) but that's actually wrong. Libertarians were against the war on drugs before anyone else, the war on crime, police brutality, gay marriage, etc. Those views are not fare weather takes on what's popular, they go against their beliefs (see 5 principles). The same can be said with conservative views. Their positions shouldn't change as politics change like the other parties or people within those parties.

There's been a huge influx of people into their party since the Hillary/Trump 2016 tickets and most of not all of those people are Conservatives or Democrats by their nature. True libertarianism is a small niche of the party or like me not part of the party at all.
 

nextJin

Member
Mar 17, 2018
455
Georgia
The problem with libertarianism, at least the American version, is that they prioritize businesses over individual rights. The idea that a business that refuses to serve minorities will just naturally go out of business because of the free market is some BS.

They don't tend to defend minorities when it comes to guns. Have we ever seen them address someone like Philando Castile?

Being able to shop at a store is what libertarians (and others as well not just them) call positive rights as opposed to negative rights.


So it's not as simple as they hate people and only care about businesses.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Being able to shop at a store is what libertarians (and others as well not just them) call positive rights as opposed to negative rights.


So it's not as simple as they hate people and only care about businesses.

It's not about hating. They don't care about minorities. It's why there are hardly any in their party.

Defend allowing businesses to not serve black people if that's what you feel. You won't do it though, because it's racist and you'll get banned.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,017
"Libertarians are socially liberal" but.. if we reduce regulations and the power of the government racism will run wild. literally the only reason it's held back is the government, not the kindness of peoples' hearts or the free exchange of ideas. I saw they want to legalize prostitution, okay but without VERY strict regulation that would be sex trafficking galore.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,204
Every single libertarian I've met in real life was a privileged white dude and a complete douchebag of the highest order. I may give libertarian intellectuals a benefit of the doubt in that, any political ideologies, taken to its ideological limits can be discussed, debated and may contain certain virtues. But there is a reason libertarianism attracts a certain core group of people with certain social beliefs and tendencies.
 

nextJin

Member
Mar 17, 2018
455
Georgia
It's not about hating. They don't care about minorities. It's why there are hardly any in their party.

Defend allowing businesses to not serve black people if that's what you feel. You won't do it though, because it's racist and you'll get banned.

They care about individuals, race is irrelevant. That's the whole point of individualism. They also don't care about group rights. If someone is attacked for being black, white, Asian, etc. their personal property (themselves) were obviously infringed upon. Those responsible would be held to the standards of the law. It's equally applied across the board. They view government as necessary only as far as needed to function to protect individual liberty and property rights. As far as race goes, they'd argue government holds power. Systemic racism = government, Jim Crow = government, slavery = government, etc. it can be applied to everything both major parties argue over.

In regards to the store owners, since individualism and free markets are 2 of their principles and they don't believe in positive rights (in terms of use of force via government) it's just not something they can get on board with. They don't endorse the practice of store owners doing that. It's obviously a deal breaker for liberals. Just like they have deal breakers for conservative viewpoints. Although it's easier for conservatives to transition over.

They do have a lot of fractures, abortion being one obvious example. Like other parties they have their own wings like the Mises Caucus, tI think there's even a libertarian socialist one too.

The point is libertarianism is more akin to a religion and not a political party. Their viewpoints don't change, at least for those few whom are no bs libertarian. The party itself is on board the BLM train from what I can tell. They've been saying it longer than Democrats have by a few decades. They just believe their solution is more sound.

The other point (as someone mentioned previously) is that they hold no power and will never be in a position of power other than maybe local county officials or something so it's irrelevant. I liked the phrase someone mentioned saying they are a weird intellectual group arguing theory never accomplishing anything which is true.
 

nextJin

Member
Mar 17, 2018
455
Georgia
I think this is a big problem with discussions about any kind of libertarianism. Most people only have a surface idea of what a libertarian is, thinking that loudmouth internet idiots who claim to be libertarian, while push Republican talking points and occasionally saying "But both parties suck", or agreeing with a pet peeve of theirs that the Libertarian Party also pushes for - drug decriminalization, legalizing prostitution, whatever - are the whole of the party, or of the philosophy.

But there's a lot more to it than what typically comes to mind for most people. Like how many self-described libertarians support universal basic income replacing the welfare system. Or how anti-war most libertarians are, and how critical they've been of the wars and bombings in the Middle East for the past 2 decades, which is the opposite of the mainstream Republican Party no matter what Trump might try to claim.

I think it's fair to say that all (real) libertarians start from the basic starting point of wanting less federal power, and more individual liberties, but the specifics start to get muddier from there depending on who you're discussing things with. Like, most want less restrictions at the borders, but not all of them want to abolish borders altogether.

Again, the video The Albatross posted really shows the trouble with our political system. If you're not center-right, you don't exist in our system. Really a great watch.



I agree, the problem with libertarianism is that when internet arguments/discussion/debate pops up libertarian views just don't fit. It's hard to get the point across because libertarians believe in open borders (generally speaking) but not with the welfare system. They contradict each other because they can't say open borders without first establishing you have to abolish the welfare state to make it work. That type of problem happens all the time with all sorts of scenarios. You have to get rid of a lot of things to end up where they want to be which is never going to happen.

It's like when Ron Paul was running and he said he'd have to abolish all but 3 Departments of government and pull all troops back. Could it all work in theory? Maybe, but it's too drastic of a change to make it work and no one is willing to even attempt such a thing.