Yeah.
The amount of shit which they (maybe somewhat rightfully...) recieved was crazy.
People only forgave them when they actually redeemed themselves.
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Why are gamers so eager to trust and even forgive the snake oil salesmen?
- Thread starter thomasmahler
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The amount of shit which they (maybe somewhat rightfully...) recieved was crazy.
People only forgave them when they actually redeemed themselves.
I developed immunity to Molyneux' hype after the first Fable. With Fable II my only expectation was to play a fun and whimsical action RPG with choices, and it absolutely delivered in that regard. It doesn't matter if "THE ACORN DOESN'T GROW INTO A TREE WORST GAME EVER". I'm not going to hold a grudge if the game is great.
When it's about huge AAA companies I tend to agree, but your take on Sean Murray and NMS is just wrong. They made mistakes and then worked their ass off to correct them. They didn't "run with the money", they sticked with the game and more than made up for the things that were absent.
It's pretty obvious now that they had nothing to gain from lying to people. When you are indie and you plan to stick around, your reputation matters a lot. They just weren't ready for the spotlight at all and Sean especially wasn't made for all that media buzz.
We should encourage people wanting to get better at what they do and working to correct their mistakes, especially when they are small indies.
Other people in this thread have already provided good points and content about that.
NEVER FORGIVE NEVER FORGET is a stupid mentality.
It's pretty obvious now that they had nothing to gain from lying to people. When you are indie and you plan to stick around, your reputation matters a lot. They just weren't ready for the spotlight at all and Sean especially wasn't made for all that media buzz.
We should encourage people wanting to get better at what they do and working to correct their mistakes, especially when they are small indies.
Other people in this thread have already provided good points and content about that.
NEVER FORGIVE NEVER FORGET is a stupid mentality.
The NMS one seems like such a weird one for people to keep bringing up. It was a small indie studio who got caught up in the AAA-marketing machine seemingly without any PR training and promised things they weren't able to complete before launch.
They more than made good on it, and the game at launch was still great. It definitely isn't comparable to the other two examples in the OP imo.
They more than made good on it, and the game at launch was still great. It definitely isn't comparable to the other two examples in the OP imo.
Wait, nevermind. Blent articulated this point better lol.
If people want read some details
No Man’s Sky developer Sean Murray: ‘It was as bad as things can get’
Murray and Hello Games coded a near-infinite universe and survived a harassment ordeal. For two years, they’ve stuck by the game that put them on the map – and led to death threats
www.theguardian.com
The stories Molyneux conjured were more fable than the games he created.
At least he was a predictable bullshitter.
At least he was a predictable bullshitter.
I really don't understand this. You don't need media training to answer truthfully to a simple question like "does your game have multiplayer?". He lied to people's face and he had a lot to gain from doing so.
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Not at all. I just think at this point we'd be in a better spot if gamers and especially the gaming press would look at things with a bit more of a critical eye instead of just buying into the hype. Generally speaking, if a game promises that 'you can do everything', I can assure you that you won't be able to. But it's apparently so enticing to believe that line that people just go absolutely fucking wild wanting to believe that magic is real.
And it's just never, ever, ever okay to outright lie about your product. I don't care if No Man's Sky is a good game now, it very well might be and good on Hello Games for fixing it up - But the act of lying is still deplorable. I think the hype culture and developers / publishers actively feeding into that is a real problem right now. Not just for gamers, but also for developers. Rewarding those that lie actively encourages those that don't do join in on the action. I don't think we should want that.
Because if I didn't care, I'd just move on and never think about it or them again. Hello Games could've easily gave up, they had already lost all fanfare and attention, but they stuck with it and imo went far beyond what was expected and all with free updates, I see no point getting hung up on the past with it, they fucked up, they fixed it and they eventually delivered a great game, going "but it was bad" seems pointless.
They are also hardly the only studio to release an unfinished game too, I'll still approach any future highly ambitious games from them with NMS' launch in mind, but that's about it.
They are also hardly the only studio to release an unfinished game too, I'll still approach any future highly ambitious games from them with NMS' launch in mind, but that's about it.
I remember this video. This also was a case of expectations not meeting reality. It got fixed in the end though.
I don't think this is a thing.
And yes, Molyneux and Murray lied. They also made games no others made.
Someone said Kojima should be in the list, and I agree. He also made games no others made.
Thinking those people are just liars is a mistake. They are believers. There big problem is what they want to do and what is achievable in a reasonable scope isn't compatible.
Last, you have to let it go. I am one of the day one NMS buyer and I was let down.
PS : BTW, the car comparison is rarely a good one to make.
EDIT : I forgot to add that, if they didn't cared, NMS wouldn't be what it is now.
I think that all games of Moulineux were special.
They were not like promised, but I think the personality's destruction of Peter Moulineux the press and the gamers made at the time was awful. Really awful.
"LIAR! WORST PERSON EVER IN THE INDUSTRY"
and then gamers and press saying "Uh, this game is like Theme Park, let's buy" "Uuuh I want a new Dungeon Keeer" "Uh, this game is really the successor of Theme Hospital!" or "We need another Fable!"
Yeah, maybe all his game were not as promised, but they are still wonderful games, with some problems but full of ideas, even if undercooked.
Also, Cyberpunk and No Man's Sky are good games, even if not as people has hoped they still are games worth buying and playing
They were not like promised, but I think the personality's destruction of Peter Moulineux the press and the gamers made at the time was awful. Really awful.
"LIAR! WORST PERSON EVER IN THE INDUSTRY"
and then gamers and press saying "Uh, this game is like Theme Park, let's buy" "Uuuh I want a new Dungeon Keeer" "Uh, this game is really the successor of Theme Hospital!" or "We need another Fable!"
Yeah, maybe all his game were not as promised, but they are still wonderful games, with some problems but full of ideas, even if undercooked.
Also, Cyberpunk and No Man's Sky are good games, even if not as people has hoped they still are games worth buying and playing
A) it's always weird to me seeing devs shit on other devs but you do you
B) if they fix the shitshow they made are we supposed to not appreciate and enjoy the fixed game and "cancel" the dev forever?
NMS is fantastic these days as far as I can tell but we're not supposed to "forgive" them?
B) if they fix the shitshow they made are we supposed to not appreciate and enjoy the fixed game and "cancel" the dev forever?
NMS is fantastic these days as far as I can tell but we're not supposed to "forgive" them?
This too, it ain't healthy. I mean I was disappointed in a bunch of games and the stories devs told prior to release throughout the years, am I meant to hold grudges against every single one of those studios and not look forward to anything they ever make again?
They lied. They got shit on and had a miserable couple of years.
If you think other devs want to be in that spot then you are naive. Nobody wants to live with fucking death threats sent to them every day.
I would argue that it was included in their original scope and he just thought that they could include it on time for launch. Obviously they couldn't do it but they already got raked for that and then some. They worked hard trying to get their reputation back up, are we supposed to never forgive them?
I was going to post this as well.
I loved the Ori games on PC, but let's not pretend that Ori 2 wasn't a shitshow on Xbox for a long time. Should we hold a grudge? I choose not to.
Again, since you've been zeroing in on NMS a lot (Which again, is pretty icky considering you admitted you may have had reasons for being bitter, since your own game was passed over in marketing) I have to point out that they -weren't- rewarded initially. They were absolutely 100% lambasted, and hounded, pretty aggressively by the industry and consumers alike. They no doubt had some of the worst months of their life following release
Yes, their efforts to try to fix things and stick with the product for -years- following launch, and make it into what it is today, has been rewarded, which by all means, they should be, considering so many studios release a game, maybe listen to some feedback and release cursory updates, before running into the aether never to be seen again, until their next title.
There is a -good- thing there by actually trying to make good on your vision.
I will never forgive you for Ori 2 crashing my Xbox multiple times when it launched and for selling a broken product at launch.
How does that feel to you? I forgave you, why would I not want to forgive other developers?
How does that feel to you? I forgave you, why would I not want to forgive other developers?
The continued hate and association with people like Molyneux for Sean Murray is really uncalled for and quite frankly terrible.
Yes he lied about the multiplayer aspect of the game but to be fair, he constantly would say that the chances of you actually running into another player were basically zero so it's not like he was promising some team based online experience and didn't deliver.
They also had the flood which destroyed a tonne of work which should be taken into consideration.
The fact that they have gone on to not only implement multiplayer but also expand the game in ways much greater than initially pitched should be something that is applauded, especially since they haven't charge for anything since the game released.
Honestly, the hate some people still have for him is pretty sickening. It's not like some of the other examples given where they would build up narratives around an upcoming game that had absolutely no basis in reality. CDPR were selling the game as something it really isn't. Features and systems were completely missing or just straight up broken, in far greater numbers than NMS was.
I'm all for calling out bullshit and lying companies but the vitriol Sean Murray gets still really needs to stop.
Yes he lied about the multiplayer aspect of the game but to be fair, he constantly would say that the chances of you actually running into another player were basically zero so it's not like he was promising some team based online experience and didn't deliver.
They also had the flood which destroyed a tonne of work which should be taken into consideration.
The fact that they have gone on to not only implement multiplayer but also expand the game in ways much greater than initially pitched should be something that is applauded, especially since they haven't charge for anything since the game released.
Honestly, the hate some people still have for him is pretty sickening. It's not like some of the other examples given where they would build up narratives around an upcoming game that had absolutely no basis in reality. CDPR were selling the game as something it really isn't. Features and systems were completely missing or just straight up broken, in far greater numbers than NMS was.
I'm all for calling out bullshit and lying companies but the vitriol Sean Murray gets still really needs to stop.
I feel with Molyneux, everyone knew he was a bullshitter. He was an entertaining/interesting character who made fun games, albeit ones where you couldn't do anything + everything.
If he was still making fun AAA games he'd still be saying things like his new game is set in the real actual future as predicted by a machine learning algorithm that uses the entirety of human knowledge, updated in real time by constantly processing the entire internet ("even the top secret parts", he'd add). The interviewer would nod politely, everyone else would laugh, we'd later enjoy his fun action rpg. No harm, no foul. It's not like people would buy his games and be shocked that you can't "do everything".
If he was still making fun AAA games he'd still be saying things like his new game is set in the real actual future as predicted by a machine learning algorithm that uses the entirety of human knowledge, updated in real time by constantly processing the entire internet ("even the top secret parts", he'd add). The interviewer would nod politely, everyone else would laugh, we'd later enjoy his fun action rpg. No harm, no foul. It's not like people would buy his games and be shocked that you can't "do everything".
Lying is bad. Saying something untrue to be deliberately deceptive is bad.
Saying something that you believe at the time to be true or that you don't then deliver on is also not great, but it's not always lying.
Sean Murray made a lot of claims and promises about NMS that, at the time, he probably believed were true and that he could deliver on. The biggest problem for me was in how they discussed multiplayer in the build up to release. That, he really did fuck up badly on.
But when it comes to the rest of the claims that they didn't live up to on release, they've managed to meet and often exceed post-launch.
Making promises and claims you genuinely mean at the time but don't keep makes you a fool, it doesn't necessarily make you a liar.
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No, I'm not arguing for that at all. If a game is good, enjoy it, celebrate it! It's insanely hard to make a good game, so let's be happy about it when it happens.
This isn't at all about what this or that game ultimately became, like I stated in my OP. This is about us agreeing that it shouldn't ever be okay to outright lie about your product. And if you know anything about development, until a feature is implemented, you really shouldn't talk about it, cause it might as well not work out... So I'd argue that developers should know very well in their PR Run what they can advertise with and what they can't.
This seems to diverge from the impression your OP gave.
I don't think anyone is disputing the problem about lying or misrepresenting your product, in the case of NMS Hello Games and Sean Murray in particular were dragged across the coals for a long time afterwards far beyond what might seem like proportionate measured critique.
They've earned good will in the years since, which you also seem to have an issue with. They haven't been rewarded for lying but applauded for the quality of their game as it is now.
I'm curious about what you would deem appropriate here, should Hello Games be forever blacklisted for their well documented launch issues, or NMS be essentially ignored regardless of its current quality?
I agree that lying is deplorable, and the hype cycle perpetuated by gaming media / journalism has a significant impact on situations like these, but what's your ideal endgame for examples where people have worked towards redeeming themselves?
He said that a few days before launch so there was no way he didn't know. Forgive? Sure. Forget? Absolutely not. He will have to keep proving himself for a very long time before anyone takes him at his word again. For that he has no one else to blame but himself.
I mean, as a developer, we would never talk about anything again until release if that's the case haha.
Because games are too much fun to view in terms of "lies" and "deceit" if you aren't some angry Youtuber.
Molyneux's been hounded out of the industry, Murray fixed his game for free and has been generally pro consumer with those fixes (as in, free upgrade for PS5 iirc), and well, CDPR, that's too soon to call.
I am frankly kinda appalled anyone has a take that gamers are too forgiving lol.
Molyneux's been hounded out of the industry, Murray fixed his game for free and has been generally pro consumer with those fixes (as in, free upgrade for PS5 iirc), and well, CDPR, that's too soon to call.
I am frankly kinda appalled anyone has a take that gamers are too forgiving lol.
NMS - do we have any way of knowing if the guy was lying?
I understand that multiplayer wasn't there at launch but isn't it likely they were working on it and it just wasn't ready ?
I understand that multiplayer wasn't there at launch but isn't it likely they were working on it and it just wasn't ready ?
You see the exact same thing in the car industry actually, just look at Tesla. They promise affordable cars with self-driving and free fast-charging and then when the cars finally come out:
Now Tesla stock is worth 7X the combined value of GM and Ford. That definitely worked for them.
As for why that works, that's because people get hyped about tech bullshit before any independent validation can be done. It's the FOMO effect or whatever and lots of people just want to jump on any new tech train before it becomes commonplace so they can show it off to their friends.
With NMS, they could have been transparent about what features are there at launch and what they'll work on as post-launch content. That's fine, it also kind of makes sense for a game with infinite exploration to have periodic content packs that add more depth to the core gameplay as time goes on.
I think the best case scenario is honestly something like Among Us, where word-of-mouth from impressions given by "real people" and not PR is what convinces people to try a game. Of course, that's sort of like aiming a rocket in the general direction of the moon (no pun intended) and hoping it lands correctly. You get a lot more attention paid to the fundamentals of how your game was designed when it's a journalist explaining it to readers versus the general public just installing a pre-launch demo on a whim and then enough people start talking about it to get a sizable group of gamers interested.
Ideally, you would always wait for a game to come out before getting hyped about it but that's unrealistic. People want to be able to discuss future games and the new concepts they're implementing. The car industry and the game industry both have a culture made up of nerds who just love to debate and compare things, for better or worse.
Maybe it would be good if devs took the discussion into a more technical path, explaining how they implement different features and the realities of the challenges they faced on the way to figuring out how to achieve a particular design goal. This could raise the level of discourse to something more empirical, get people hyped about studio's talent, and avoid just making everybody a jaded internet troll that hates everything unless it gets a final metacritic score of 90%.
- Have to wait a year or two to get the base model
- "Full Self-Driving Capability" isn't what it says at all. As shown by multiple accidents where Tesla blames the user for not taking over for the system
- FSD ends up being a $10,000 upcharge for them to unlock the feature on your car
- Fast-charging use becomes rationed and charged
- Holy hell at the production and quality issues, especially at launch.
Now Tesla stock is worth 7X the combined value of GM and Ford. That definitely worked for them.
As for why that works, that's because people get hyped about tech bullshit before any independent validation can be done. It's the FOMO effect or whatever and lots of people just want to jump on any new tech train before it becomes commonplace so they can show it off to their friends.
With NMS, they could have been transparent about what features are there at launch and what they'll work on as post-launch content. That's fine, it also kind of makes sense for a game with infinite exploration to have periodic content packs that add more depth to the core gameplay as time goes on.
I think the best case scenario is honestly something like Among Us, where word-of-mouth from impressions given by "real people" and not PR is what convinces people to try a game. Of course, that's sort of like aiming a rocket in the general direction of the moon (no pun intended) and hoping it lands correctly. You get a lot more attention paid to the fundamentals of how your game was designed when it's a journalist explaining it to readers versus the general public just installing a pre-launch demo on a whim and then enough people start talking about it to get a sizable group of gamers interested.
Ideally, you would always wait for a game to come out before getting hyped about it but that's unrealistic. People want to be able to discuss future games and the new concepts they're implementing. The car industry and the game industry both have a culture made up of nerds who just love to debate and compare things, for better or worse.
Maybe it would be good if devs took the discussion into a more technical path, explaining how they implement different features and the realities of the challenges they faced on the way to figuring out how to achieve a particular design goal. This could raise the level of discourse to something more empirical, get people hyped about studio's talent, and avoid just making everybody a jaded internet troll that hates everything unless it gets a final metacritic score of 90%.
sean murray/no man's sky doesn't deserve to be mentioned as an example of this. people mess up, but they've more than made up for it. there's no point in being stuck in the past, sometimes it's good to move on.
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Who is forgetting though? Acknowledging/giving credit to what NMS is now is not the same as forgetting what happened on launch.
I'm not a developer so I don't know how much time was needed to have a day one patch for a some type of multiplayer mode there. What I remember though, not 100% sure about this, was that instead of seeing another player all you can see is some sort of orb which suggests to me that it was indeed being worked on but never really got completed to be implemented fully on launch or a day one patch.
How long will he need to keep proving himself? 4 years is not enough? Did he blame anybody else for what happened with NMS?
Should we not reward devs who stick by their game and continually update it to the point of going above and beyond the original proposition at no cost to the player?
That's a good suggestion on paper, but I'm not sure it can be achieved in reality, you'll only know if the game failed to met expectations after it gets released. Plus, gaming press loves the hype because it brings clicks.
The problem is that to this day, developers still release games that are beyond broken or lacking in promised features. They try to get it out the door as soon as possible with the attitude that they can just fix everything post launch. Yes, it's good that they end up improving the game over time, but they are KNOWINGLY taking your money and giving you a subpar product out of the gate.
The hype cycle is fun. It's like buying a Lotto ticket. You don't expect that your dreams will come true but it is enjoyable to dream what life will be like if you actually won.
It's the same with games. You play a game and think it's neat but just not ambitious enough. The next game comes along and promises to be everything you wanted. You play that game and can see where they have pushed the medium forward but have ultimately fallen short of your lofty expectations. Not to worry, the next game is coming along and promising to finally do those things you always thought were impossible.
It's the same with games. You play a game and think it's neat but just not ambitious enough. The next game comes along and promises to be everything you wanted. You play that game and can see where they have pushed the medium forward but have ultimately fallen short of your lofty expectations. Not to worry, the next game is coming along and promising to finally do those things you always thought were impossible.
This weird vendetta is fucking wild. Hang your head in shame Sean Murray, gamer culture is built upon honour and, sir, you have none.
There are many reasons that can lead to a game not working properly at launch or not having every feature people were waiting for. I just think it's important to not put everything in the same basket, context matters.
People should generally wait for release day to see what the game actually plays like, absolutely.
Everyone will have to decide that for themselves. Would you feel comfortable in buying a Hello Games title day one? I personally wouldn't. If you feel differently I respect it but I don't agree with it.
There is no vendetta. Someone lied and as such threy have lost my trust. It has nothing to do with honor, it is the logical consequence of that person's actions.
Especially while doing a weird scare quote thing about journalists
This thread feels super weird... like the studio I work for cares about you gamers unlike ... Peter Molyneux and Sean Murray and "journalists"... weird
This post is so weirdly aggressive, especially coming from a dev. It's an interesting conversation to have, but you could've easily just made the post without going hard on people like Sean Murray. This is very clearly not just a "I thought this would be something interesting to talk about" post.
My friend, the wording of your post is not "this dude lost my trust". It is very much more dramatic than that so either rein yourself in or cop to your intentions and given your actions in this very thread those intentions seem pretty blatant.
This thread is really really weird, and nothing that you have posted since has really moved it past you pretty clearly having gripes with Hellogames and what happened to you. It is a shame that a dev behind a really admired game feels it is appropriate to basically seemingly call for the "Never forgive, never forget" mantra over a game
Oh come on dude you put bloody scare quotes around journalists, and called a bunch of your peers snake oil salesmen... you're absolutely encouraging toxic behavior.
Since then they released the last campfire, wich was great from day one.
Every NMS update is more content-packed than what people were hoping for, everytime.
So yeah I would feel confident.
I mean don't you think they would have learned a lot from their mistakes, after all they've been thru ?
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