no post the one page where Spidey gets mad at Cap for knowing about Venom Flash.
He hits Cap so hard he goes flying
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Who would win in a fight: MCU Cap or Raimi Spider-Man?
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no post the one page where Spidey gets mad at Cap for knowing about Venom Flash.
He hits Cap so hard he goes flying
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If Raimi Spidey wanted to kill Cap he's not getting another chance to get back up. This isn't a matter of will. Besides lifting up the hammer there isn't a physical feat that Cap can do that Raimi Spidey can't. Can't say the same for Cap when it comes to comparing to what Spider-Man can do.
It really is a wash. Pound for pound Cap is outmatched. The moment he throws his shield it's getting webbed out of commission and Raimi Spidey has his way with him.
I understand what you mean, but I think we disagree on imaginary premise In which this fight to takes place. Like, I can't ever imagine spider man killing captain America... spider man doesn't even want to kill bad guys, there's no way he's gonna kill the goody good cap. Technically he might be able to kill captain America right off the bat, but that's not his character. If we were talking about the punisher vs cap then sure I'd say that's plausible. Or like these two characters at their power levels in a vacuum or like in a fighting game which one of them runs out of health first, sure. Spider man wins on stats alone.
But I'm imagining a scenario where to two characters from the two universes are pitted against each other for reasons, even if it's just for one fight. I think by the virtue of cap taking a beating but not giving up he wins out in the end... because Spider-Man would have to kill to him to win and spidey would give up before then.
I probably could've elaborated a bit more where I said "I can't see Raimi Spiderman losing".
IMO, Spiderman neutralizes Cap's shield, which is normally Cap's best weapon. Spiderman's webs, agility, and spider-sense seem to beat that shield easily, just due to an unfavorable "type" matchup.
But Cap doesn't nearly need the shield to win. Cap's an extremely good fighter while Spiderman is a pretty terrible one. Get Cap close to Spiderman, and Spiderman is going to be receiving some serious punishment. But Spiderman's durability is way too high. Spiderman can tank some serious stuff. He doesn't like doing that, because it hurts, but he can do it. And with Spiderman's strength/speed/mobility advantage, Cap can't really cut off Spiderman's retreat. The two would get close, Cap would give Spiderman a pounding, and then Spiderman would back away. And at a distance, Spiderman gets the advantage again. Cap would win all of the points in a scored contest with a referee, but in a fight, one side has to win by putting the other one down for the count. I can't see Cap having the ability to put Spiderman down (I mean, it's possible, but not likely, I don't think). Meanwhile, I can see Spiderman being able to do it, if he manages to get his head in the game and get serious. Spiderman's physical advantages are just too damn high. He's faster, stronger, he's got superhuman evasion, on top of superhuman durability... Spiderman's gonna take some hits, but once he connects (and he will connect), he can cause damage that Cap can't cause. Like, one solid body blow could give Cap broken ribs and have him coughing up blood. "Willpower" won't do Cap any good at that point. If Cap can't break Spiderman while at full heath (because Spiderman's durability is too damn high), then he can't break Spiderman while injured. Spiderman won't win in any pretty way, but I think he'll win because the power balance is tipped way too far in his favor.
Give Cap the hammer and that changes everything. Spiderman's durability becomes nothing. Spiderman's speed becomes nothing. His ability to predict and avoid an attack is almost certainly beaten by an attack that's too fast to dodge. Close range, Spiderman gets wrecked even harder than he did in the above paragraph. Long range, that's not Spiderman's advantage anymore, that's Cap's advantage. It's theoretically possible for Spiderman to win against the hammer, but not really.
Giving Spiderman the black suit really changes nothing, except maybe making him more willing to use his full power.
I feel like people are dipping into the comics for some of their analysis. MCU Cap isn't some great tactician. He knows mixed martial arts and some fancy shield moves. Raimi's Spidey is young and emotional. He's done shit that could flat out kill people. Dropped walls, knocked people of buildings and flung a clock arm like a ballista.
If you wanna go by stats, Spidey comes out on top. Wanna go by movies, Spidey would probably accidentally kill Cap while fighting back.
If you wanna go by stats, Spidey comes out on top. Wanna go by movies, Spidey would probably accidentally kill Cap while fighting back.
MCU Caps takes punches from Thanos and manage to not get get knocked out. The same punches used to knock Thor around. I think y'all overestimating how strong Raimi spider is. You guys also forgetting that Raimi Spider's strength in stopping wasn't just due to his raw strength but was also due to the tensile strength of this web. If they snapped, he'd been run over.
Cap stopped a helicopter, and nobody is gonna argue that trains are cooler than helicopters because trains can't even fly so what are you even trying to say.
It's weird because physics apply least to Peter. He's simultaneously the strongest person ever when he's rescuing people, and just kind of normal when he's fighting people. Like Peter should be able to crush Cap's head with his bare hands, but according to the Raimi movies he actually isn't that strong.
Meanwhile Steve's super strength is pretty consistent throughout. And his experience in combat is probably enough to win out over Peter's smarts.
Meanwhile Steve's super strength is pretty consistent throughout. And his experience in combat is probably enough to win out over Peter's smarts.
Raimi Spiderman stopping a Train isn't really a feat of Strength as much as it's a feat of Durability. Spidey didn't just stand in front of it and put his arms out and absorb the force, bringing the train to a stop. And when he tries to use his legs, not only does he not slow the train down at all but he's shown clutching his knee as he was hurt by the process, even if minimally.
The technique he uses to stop the train relies far more on the tensile strength of the webbing and his bodies ability to withstand being stretched than a use of strength. The only actual strength he's utilizing there is grip strength. That's not to say that he's not strong, just that the feat isn't really one that measures strength. The way the scene is shown, Spidey doesn't actually ever even have a chance to engage his strength before his upper body is pulled to a point where he can't.
By contrast Cap's chopper scene, while similar, actually does showcase Cap's strength because he grabs both the chopper and the railing with his arms in flexion and is able to keep that flex in one arm while eventually pulling the chopper back closer. This doesn't mean that Cap's stronger but that the helicopter scene is one that does actually showcase a feat of strength.
So it's a case where using those particular scenes 1:1 to compare strength isn't great.
The technique he uses to stop the train relies far more on the tensile strength of the webbing and his bodies ability to withstand being stretched than a use of strength. The only actual strength he's utilizing there is grip strength. That's not to say that he's not strong, just that the feat isn't really one that measures strength. The way the scene is shown, Spidey doesn't actually ever even have a chance to engage his strength before his upper body is pulled to a point where he can't.
By contrast Cap's chopper scene, while similar, actually does showcase Cap's strength because he grabs both the chopper and the railing with his arms in flexion and is able to keep that flex in one arm while eventually pulling the chopper back closer. This doesn't mean that Cap's stronger but that the helicopter scene is one that does actually showcase a feat of strength.
So it's a case where using those particular scenes 1:1 to compare strength isn't great.
the fight would go little like this:
Yeah, the Spider-Sense in the Raimi Movies is far more developed and effective then the counterpart in the MCU. Theoretically, MCU Cap should not be able to get a single hit in, even if he is way out of Peters league combat-wise.
He needs the grip strength to actually hold on to the webbing. It's a display of durability and strength.
A more relevant comparison would be 200 000 N to 15 000 N. Still hugely in favor of Spider-man of course.
Spidey would stop that chopper in his sleep.
Put Cap on that train and those civilians are dead.
Honestly Ock would just toss him off and Cap wouldn't be able to retaliate. That train scene showcases exactly what makes Spider-Man so unique. His overall power set is just too much for Cap.
Raimi Spider-Man also includes Bully Maguire, the most powerful of Marvel movie characters. Game over.
A single hit? Raimi's spider-man gets sucker punched/regular punched all the time. Doesn't matter how good the spider sense is when dude can clearly get distracted/tricked. The Super Serum Cap took is at least on par if not better than the Green Goblim formula.
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Don't forget that Cap is waaaaayyyy faster and stronger than Flash. Now if it were Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, who can dodge gunfire at point-blank range, I agree that Cap wouldn't be able to touch him.
Peter's leg vs the train rails at runaway speed indicate absurd durability.
Cap doesn't have a chance unless he has an outside force of some kind
Cap doesn't have a chance unless he has an outside force of some kind
Ya'll keep claiming the spider-sense is some invincible defense mechanism but he still gets his ass beat in the movies. Yea sure, you can claim it's for plot purposes cause it's not fun watching your main character wreck shit, but it doesn't change the fact that his spider-sense ain't saving him from getting knocked around.
Case in point below:
He's getting his ass beat cause of his lack of experience in fighting. His Spider-senses isn't making his body automatically dodge or deflect attacks. It isn't making him plan his counter attacks.
If it was Spider-Man like, five or ten years after his start, yeah, he'd probably drop MCU cap.
Case in point below:
A single hit? Raimi's spider-man gets sucker punched/regular punched all the time. Doesn't matter how good the spider sense is when dude can clearly get distracted/tricked. The Super Serum Cap took is at least on par if not better than the Green Goblim formula.
He's getting his ass beat cause of his lack of experience in fighting. His Spider-senses isn't making his body automatically dodge or deflect attacks. It isn't making him plan his counter attacks.
If it was Spider-Man like, five or ten years after his start, yeah, he'd probably drop MCU cap.
I mentioned the grip strength. But grip strength is not representative of the type of strength people are talking about when comparing the two scenes.
My post was about comparing the two situations 1:1 as a representation of overall strength. It's not a good comparison. And swapping the two into each others fights isn't a good comparison either because the way they approach things is incredibly different. There's no way to know that the train situation would've even happened if Cap was in that story instead of Spidey. Same of the Chopper situation with Spidey.
Raimi Spider-Man gets KO'd, free. Spider-Sense nothing, he still gets his shit rocked in by Green Goblin in the first movie, gets tricked by Ock's tentacles dozens of times in the second, and still gets knicked by Harry in the third.
Tobey is too emotional to win a prolonged fight against MCU Cap (and the fight WILL go on for a while). The symbiote would help in focusing his emotions to actually want to hurt someone, but it's not like it'd give him extra strength.
Tobey is too emotional to win a prolonged fight against MCU Cap (and the fight WILL go on for a while). The symbiote would help in focusing his emotions to actually want to hurt someone, but it's not like it'd give him extra strength.
Peter is always holding back punches canonically similar to Supes, which is why when SpOck smacked someone and as someone else put it, took their jaw off he was like "wut".
If a non-green, pissed off Parker went at Cap it would be bad. I don't immediately count out Cap but it's way different from when Spidey is sandbagging.
People have to realize that the entire Raimi trilogy takes place over TWO YEARS. Raimi Spider-Man is inexperienced as hell. For the premise of this thread a seasoned MCU Cap who has fought super solders,aliens,androids, space gods ect would wash 30 year old Peter Parker in his sophomore year of college lol.
Quote starts at 2:21
From the Spider-Man 3 novelization
As someone who mentioned the Spidey Sense, I would say that it's not an invincible defense mechanism, but it is literally a superhuman evasion advantage.
If you look at the Flash fight in Spiderman 1, Peter makes Flash really, really angry, then goes off and starts opening his locker. His focus is entirely on unlocking his lock, and then he gets a tingle, his eyes go wide, and suddenly he can "see" everything that's going on around him. He can see a paper airplane in flight. He can see a fly buzzing in the air. And he can see Flash's fist coming towards the back of his head. So he dodges the punch using his superhuman agility, without even looking.
Then he's fighting Flash and it's as if Flash is standing still (because Spiderman's agility level is crazy high). But while all of Peter's focus is on his slow-mo fight with Flash, someone tries to sucker punch him from behind, and the Spider Sense activates again (with an audio cue) and Peter does a backflip over his new attacker, again without looking.
In Spiderman 2, Peter has "lost" all of his Spiderman powers (he's mentally suppressing them, because he blames them for his hard life of great responsibility), until Doc Ock throws a car at him, from behind, and his eyes go wide and he reacts with superhuman speed to save himself and Mary Jane.
Raimi Spiderman basically has eyes in the back of his head, and it's difficult/impossible to sneak up on him. He also has the reflexes and speed to perform some pretty amazing dodges, regardless of what direction the attack comes from. And once you get past his superhuman dodging ability, he's fast and strong and durable as hell. Spiderman can and does get hit, but the Spidey Sense is a huge factor working in Spiderman's favor.
I think the Spidey Sense comes into play firstly when dealing with Cap's shield. Cap tends to throw his shield, have it reflect off some object, and bounce it towards hitting a guy in their blind spot. But that's exactly the sort of attack that the Spidey Sense works best against. Also, Cap's shield works amazingly well at deflecting large amounts of force (like Thor hitting it with his hammer in Avengers 1), but Spiderman's webs have about as much attack power as getting gum in your hair. Cap's shield is wasted in a fight against Spiderman. Webs are not about attack power, but if you glue the shield to the ground (with webs capable of stopping a train), that shield is taken completely out of the fight. Rock beats scissors, and Spiderman beats Cap's shield.
The second benefit of Spider Sense, I would say, comes in how I feel Cap has the advantage in close quarters, but Spiderman has the advantage at range. I do agree that Cap is a much better fighter, so regardless of Spiderman's strength/speed/durability/Spidey Sense, Spiderman will be out-fought by Cap at close range. But when Spiderman retreats to catch his breath, Cap won't just let him do that. Cap will pursue Spiderman, but he can't sneak attack Spiderman, because the Spidey Sense will tell him when it's time to move again.
Incidentally, I said earlier that Cap wins if he has the hammer, no contest, but I just realized that there's something Spiderman can do to put up a fight. It's the shield. The shield can put up a fight against the hammer (as seen in Avengers 1), but you've gotta be strong to use the shield effectively, and Spiderman's got that in spades. If Spiderman can steal Cap's shield, then Spiderman probably stands an even chance in his fight against Cap with the hammer.
Flash is a normal ass human being while MCU cap is on the super soldier serum.
The trilogies best example of his spider-senses kicking was that Flash fight in the first movie. The same movie with Green Goblin rocking him.
Cap throws his shield at spidey, he dodges it cause of his senses, but turns out, Cap made him jump in mid air and he's unable to dodge the real attack. Like I said, Spider senses don't make him a better or smarter fighter. He's just way too young and inexperienced to go toe to toe with MCU Cap without taking an L.
I suppose it's kind of an unfair fight seeing as the Raimi movies takes place in the span of two years through three movies while MCU Cap has been in a lot more movies and has gained even more experienced fighting various kinds of enemies.
The trilogies best example of his spider-senses kicking was that Flash fight in the first movie. The same movie with Green Goblin rocking him.
Cap throws his shield at spidey, he dodges it cause of his senses, but turns out, Cap made him jump in mid air and he's unable to dodge the real attack. Like I said, Spider senses don't make him a better or smarter fighter. He's just way too young and inexperienced to go toe to toe with MCU Cap without taking an L.
I suppose it's kind of an unfair fight seeing as the Raimi movies takes place in the span of two years through three movies while MCU Cap has been in a lot more movies and has gained even more experienced fighting various kinds of enemies.
I blame MCU for the people voting Cap. MCU has made Spider-man look like an impotent loser for several movies now.
Head-on collision too. Somebody add up these force vectors.is Cap stronger than a train?
I dont think so.
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Do people even know that Spidey pulls his punches? He is incredibly overpowered given he is a street level hero. Unrestrained punches will knock someone's jaw clean off as Otto discovered when he inhabited his body. Peter fights to cripple or disable, not kill. He's not a soldier like Cap.
Here he is trying to keep Otto from Aunt May and disable him as gently as he possibly can while fending off 4 super strong mechanical arms. More importantly against someone he just met.
He could have killed Otto right here but obviously he needed to find MJ and of course he's not going to intentionally kill you unless severely blood lusted
Raimi Spider-Man is a brawler, more of a get in your face type and beat you up. His reflexes are on another level and can keep the momentum going even after being tossed at high speed. And of course durable as fuck as he survived getting hit by a train with no visible issues.
I like Cap but if Cap is an obstacle for Peter, for whatever reason, Cap is going down. If it's just a sparring match, I still feel Peter would eventually wear him down due to enhanced spider physiology.
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Tobey: Pizza Time.
Cap: Hail Hydra.
Tobey: I missed the part where that's my problem.
Cap: I understood that reference.
Tobey: That's a cute outfit, did your husband give it to you?
Cap: Yeah I know, I know.
Tobey: Stings doesn't it?
Cap: I can do this all day.
Tobey: You'll get your rent when you fix this damn door!
Cap: Language!
If we were comparing memes, tobey is waaaay above cap, with more god-tier memes in 3 movies compared to how many ever cap was in.
Cap: Hail Hydra.
Tobey: I missed the part where that's my problem.
Cap: I understood that reference.
Tobey: That's a cute outfit, did your husband give it to you?
Cap: Yeah I know, I know.
Tobey: Stings doesn't it?
Cap: I can do this all day.
Tobey: You'll get your rent when you fix this damn door!
Cap: Language!
If we were comparing memes, tobey is waaaay above cap, with more god-tier memes in 3 movies compared to how many ever cap was in.
Cap is obviously incomparably better than Flash, I just used him for the examples of how the Spidey Sense works. Which is basically that he can see things coming from any direction. Cap wouldn't know that Spiderman has a Spidey Sense, so he wouldn't immediately know to exploit it to put Spiderman in a worse position. And even if Cap learned it pretty quick, he'd just be able to get a couple punches in before Spiderman backed off.
Regarding Green Goblin, he's basically got some version of a Super Soldier Serum, an armor suit, and a lot of toys.
Goblin Fight #1 - Goblin attacks the parade. Spiderman jumps in to stop him while saving people. Goblin manages to stop one of Spiderman's punches and kicks him. Spiderman dodges machineguns and missiles. Spiderman is annoyed as Goblin tries (and fails) to stop Spiderman from saving people. Spiderman fucks up Goblin's glider, and Goblin retreats.
Goblin Fight #2 - Goblin attacks the Daily Bugle. Spiderman tries to talk. Goblin hits Spiderman with sleeping gas, and then talks when Spiderman wakes up, and leaves before Spiderman regains his strength.
Goblin Fight #3 - Goblin arranges to speak to Spiderman inside a burning building, with shit exploding everywhere. Manages to surprise and sucker punch Spiderman by pretending to need a rescue. Throws a bunch of flying blade drones around Spiderman. Spiderman dodges the shit out of them, but gets cut once while taking them out. Uses his Spidey Sense to get the last two of them to crash into each other. Kicks Goblin around for a while, and then leaves while Goblin isn't looking.
Goblin Fight #4 - Goblin kidnaps Mary Jane and a bunch of children, and tries to make Spiderman chose which one dies. Spiderman chooses "neither", saves Mary Jane, and then swings around to save the kids. This makes Goblin mad, so he punches Spiderman around for a while as he tries (and fails) to stop Spiderman from saving people.
Goblin Fight #4.5 - Goblin manages to carry Spiderman off to an isolated location and drops him. Hits Spiderman in the face with a Goblin Bomb which is strong enough to blast Spiderman clean through a brick wall. Goblin punches Spiderman a lot. Doesn't let up or give Spiderman a moment to reset the flow of the fight. Goblin makes Spiderman mad by threatening Mary Jane. Spiderman overpowers Goblin, drops a brick wall on him, and then beats the shit out of Goblin for several minutes. Goblin tries to get Spiderman to drop his guard with a fake surrender while he tries to skewer Spiderman from behind. Spiderman uses his Spidey Sense to dodge the skewer and Goblin skewers himself.
Green Goblin was never on Spiderman's level, not even with some sort of Super Soldier Serum, armor, flight, guns, bombs, and blade weapons that are particularly useful against webs. Gas and hostages are the only things that really worked in Goblin's favor.
Cap ain't got any of that, except for the Super Soldier Serum, an amazing shield that works fantastic against just about anybody except Spiderman, and maybe Thor's Hammer (that last one is Cap's best bet against Raimi Spiderman).
Nah man, it's definitely about strength. It's the same as lying on your back on a bench with heavy ass weights in your outstretched hands. It's a static hold. You need your muscles to exert the opposing force of, in this case, a runaway train. You don't need to visually show flexion to have your muscles exert force. Go sit up against the wall with your knees in a ninety degree angle. Still takes strength.
If there would not be any muscle tension in his chest, shoulders, biceps and forearms, Spideys arms would be ripped out of his sockets and his elbows and wrists would just snap. Matter of fact, there is so much strength in his muscles that his joints are protected against the force of a runaway train. And the fact his bones don't snap (which are biomechanically unprotected from the strength/function of muscles) from the force of the train means he has INSANE durability.
The two scenes are actually really comparable because they're both static holds. But in stead of using his chest/shoulders/biceps to stop the helicopter Cap is using just his biceps, which gives you far less strength. If Cap where to have been in a same position as Spidey, using the same muscles he'd have much less difficulty with the chopper. Though also a far less impressive flex ;)
However, this does not the negate the fact Jarmel pointed out that the force of the train is a HUNDRED times more than that of the chopper. If I can hold 30 kilo's in both arms for ten seconds in a static biceps hold, for a total of sixty kilo's, doesn't mean I can hold 3000 kilo dumbells in a static dumbell hold. Would be really cool though.
Given the train and helicopter comparison the difference in just strength, and associated durability, is just way, waaaay to big to even make this a fair fight. Spidey takes this. And I'm even a pretty big Cap fanboy. Like him much better than Tobey.
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Strongly disagree. The only thing the current movies are better at is CGI special effects.
It's not a legitimate static hold. The comparison to being on the bench doesn't work because on a bench your arms aren't getting support. With the train scene, Spidey's completely supported through his entire arm, with exception to his wrists, and the webbing is flush with and bending around the train essentially taking the brunt of the immediate pressure as the fulcum and changing the the direction of the force from being towards his back (like it would be towards the ground if on a bench) to being outwards. Your evaluation could work if Spidey had been shown to engage his muscles groups before being forced backwards but that's not how they chose to choreograph the scene. It would essentially be pulling his arms straight out of the sockets in a direction that the muscles aren't built to assist in preventing. Had they shown Spidey pull his arms up from his elbows (as in towards the sky as his grip is shown to be thumbs up) then an argument could be made about strength being used but they didn't so he's really only using grip strength to hold on to the webbing which is doing most of the work. The physics shown in the scene are not exact of course. That's a given and honestly to be expected. But from what's shown it's not a test of strength but rather his bodies natural ability to withstand being pressured in an unnatural direction.
Cap's scene has a similar directional pull but he's able to utilize his strength precisely because he started from a position of flexion. Had his arms been fully extended, there wouldn't be much he could use outside of grip strength to keep the Chopper from escaping. The really interesting thing about the Cap scene though is that whoever designed it seems to have known about how the body works to some degree because Cap switching his grip gives him the ability to recruit more muscles groups in securing the Chopper with his flexed left arm and then he somehow leverages very underutilized muscles groups with his right to pull down rather than in. Maybe's it's just coincidence though and the grip switch was done for the precise reason you suggest. Impressive flex. :D
Raimi Spider-Man's strength changed so frequently to make a scene work it makes it difficult to guess. He can stop a train and hurl tons of wreckage, so by rights he should have punched Doc Ock's head clean off - for example.
I'd give it to MCU Cap due to sheer quickness and ability.
I'd give it to MCU Cap due to sheer quickness and ability.
You're forgetting Spider-Man 3, in which Harry snatches Peter right up off his scooter, and the Spider-Sense does nothing.
People keep saying that Peter was holding back against Ock, but it makes zero sense for him to not at least hit the guy hard enough to knock the dude out. It was bad writing for the sake of the plot that makes either Peter weak or Ock super human because even if Peter was holding back and punching at normal man strength Ock shouldn't be able to take that.
MCU Cap got rocked by Tony in the Iron Man suit. I don't remember Tony having any fighting skills and that suit isn't stronger than Spiderman's natural strength. Shit Tony took on Cap and Bucky.
This never made any sense to me. Doc Ock was threatening aunt May and posing a real damage to all the people on the streets below. You'd at least want to punch him out, right? Not hold back so much that he'd still continue to cause a threat. I agree it's bad writing.
Oh yeah, you're right. Without having the exact scene in mind I kind of forgot that a train is indeed wider than a gym bench :p I agree that makes the directional pull pretty similar. And looking at the scene now it's obvious Spidey isn't activating as many muscles as Cap is. I'd hope Spidey is activating some stabilizers to keep his arms being pulled out of his sockets though. If not...poor (and impressive!) joints. Which would only further add to his durability.
And while you're absolutely right in everything you said, it doesn't really change the '100 times stronger part', since grip strength is highly correlated with average strength. Though it could be argued that Spidey's web is sticky, as are his hands, so he'd need less...squeezing power? And Spidey obviously used all his strength to stop the train. While Cap had an extremely disadvantageous grip on the helicopter, while still holding on to it, and he wasn't completely beat afterwards. Which speaks in favor of Cap. Still...would that all be enough to make up for the huuuuge difference in force between the runaway train and the chopper that's only lifting of? I kind of doubt it.
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