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James or Sirius?

  • James was kind of a jerk

    Votes: 618 62.0%
  • Snape WAS a loser

    Votes: 379 38.0%

  • Total voters
    997

LinkSlayer64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 6, 2018
2,294
Dumbledore asks him to do that. And that's just revenge.

We have absolutely no reason to believe Snape grew out of being a Nazi, and nothing in the text supports him being cruel and vindictive to others students to keep up appearances.

Cut the bullshit.
Apart from working against the wizard Nazis and undermining them ever getting to power.

We don't have much to go off as to whether he stopped being a racist or not afterwards, as the only time we are certain he is actually being himself is the private interactions he has with Dumbledore, and in those all we see directly is that he is upset when he finds out that both Dumbledore and Harry have to die. Aside from that we know that Dumbledore repeatedly vouches for him despite the evidence to the contrary, and despite Dumbledore being a needless troll most of the time, he is always right at judging a persons character.

Again, I don't think this redeems Snape to be a nice/good person. Just not a Nazi.

I did just reread the books this past week actually.
He isn't a wizard nazi anymore, he works against them the whole time after he turns to Dumbledore. He rejects the former slytherin headmaster's portrait calling Hermione a mudblood. As for being a shithead, it's arguable he does it to keep up appearances because Dumbledore even tells him when Lily and James die that "The Dark Lord will return, and their child will be in great danger when he does." So it's best to appear that you are in fact a huge asshole still when you're trying to be a good spy.

But regardless, he is a huge shithead, under pretenses or not. Just gotta agree with this guy - he's not a nazi anymore. But he was one! Which squarely puts him worse than James in my opinion. At least James stopped being an asshole.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,431
I love how you contradict yourself in the end by saying "except for this one character people misinterpret all the time. With him it's weird."

Nigga. No. It's always weird, and we should absolutely be allowed to call attention to that to encourage people to think critically about the content they're consuming in a way that forces them to engage with what that has to say about their biases in reality.
I didnt clarify enough with the exceptions. My point is that Punisher has been co-opted by real life hate groups so that crosses a line when people say they sympathize or identify with him.
I just don't see how Snape is at that level, unless some incels start to wear robes and get death eater tats.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,760
If the time or two we see James being a jerk back when he was a teenager makes him worse than a racist who grows up to treat kids like the bully he hated.....

Yeah. Snape is much, much worse.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,007
James much more of a loser in his school days than Snape, because he came from privileged, well to do family. He was a spoiled, pure blooded brat.

James wasn't punching Nazis- Death eaters did not become a thing until after James graduated. Snape was neither a Slytherian or a death eater one his first trip to Hogswart- so what was James justification for picking on Snape then? His clothes? His hair? Talking to a girl? James was picking on anyone weaker and poorer than himself because he was raised with a chip on his shoulder.

Sorry, people don't grow out of being bullied- the scars of bulling stay with people for life. Snape came from an abusive household- hating the muggle side of himself. He final was going to escape to the wizarding world where life could be better, and his first introduction was two pure-bloods verbally abusing him and Lilly. He went from one place abusing him to another. It is no wonder Snape became enthralled first with Slytherian, then the Death Eaters- they welcomed him, made him feel wanted.

Snape, while evil, is tragic. The wizarding world is just as messed up as the real world when it comes to social services, racism, class, worshiping of celebrity sports figures. Instead teaching kids to get along, the whole system of Hogwarts was set up on bullshit house rivalries. It just breeding ground for life long enemies and resentment.

In a story world, James through his on hubris and actions creating his worst enemy, Snape. I expect better from story heroes.

The Death Eaters were the final form of the racist nazi clubs that already existed at Hogwarts. Snape was a racist Nazi. While what you said about James is true, he grew out of it even while in Hogwarts. Snape only retreated further into racism and exclusion. He's the worst person.
 

Alcoremortis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,575
That was a spell that hangs people upside down in midair that Snape created to torment people. James was just giving him a taste of his own medicine after being in a position to learn it (after either witnessing Snape use it on others, or being one of Snape's victims).

Snape joined the Hitler youth of the wizarding world while he was still in school. Come on people. if you don't properly remember the series then don't vote.

ec83df3a644596086eadff08230f22c0aebcf2ce.png


This is probably what people are remembering about the pants bit.
 
Dec 22, 2018
432
ec83df3a644596086eadff08230f22c0aebcf2ce.png


This is probably what people are remembering about the pants bit.

Ah, his pants. Okay. I admit my memory was off. Though now I'm just confused as hell.

Under his robes his "greying underpants" were exposed . . . But then the scene ends with James threatening to go one step further and take off his "pants"? That seems a little inconsistent, unless people in the U.K. use the words pants and underpants interchangeably.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Okay a few things people are forgetting:

1. Snape was a child of an alcoholic and abusive father who was a Muggle, who both abused his wife and child as hinted in the text. Shapes only connected with the muggle world was basically a father who hurt him and his mother. The mother also seemed to be not to nice to the son, and, as based on his clothing, did not care to clean or help him be a better person. On top of that Lilly's sister was treating her horribly when he found them and pretty much his view of muggles was shaped for the most part.
Petunia wasn't treating Lily horribly. Petunia was afraid of and fascinated by Lily's abilities. She was also concerned that Lily was rulebreaking, because their parents had told Lily not to use her powers in public. Petunia clearly became envious and didn't want to be separated from her sister, so she wrote a letter to Hogwarts asking if she can go with Lily and learn to be a Wizard too.

Snape was stalking Lily, watching her from the bushes, and he opened their mail and read Petunia's gently-worded response letter from Hogwarts, and showed it to Lily for the sole purposes of laughing at Petunia, whom Snape considered a Mudblood. Imagine, a Muggle having the audacity to wish they were a Wizard. When an upset Petunia tried to insult Snape's clothes, 10-year-old Snape in a rage hit her in the head with a tree branch and made her cry.

Snape may have had terrible parents who sent him down the wrong path in life, but he was clearly on the incel/Nazi path long before he ever met James Potter.

2. Lilly was the only friend and outside connection to the world that Severus had. It's shown in the books that, like Harry, he's treated like shit for being poor and who he is. When he and Lilly were on the train James and Sirius came to the back of the cars they found them and started to mock the hell out of Severus and Lilly (for being around him).
Lily was crying on the train to Hogwarts, because Snape had made Petunia hate Lily (in Lily's own words), and Snape told Lily that she must join Slytherin house (because that will solve the problem of giving a damn what your Muggle sister thinks).

James and Sirius were already in the same car, sitting across from the two of them, when James expressed disgust at Slytherin, and Sirius said that his parents were gonna try and railroad him into Slytherin, and James (having been asked by Sirius) said he was aiming for Gryffindor. Snape insulted James, and James insulted Snape. Then Lily decided to break things up by moving herself and Snape to another car.

Lily joined Gryffindor, and (knowing full well that she went to Gryffindor) Snape joined Slytherin, because his hormones hadn't fully kicked in yet, and his Nazi side was bigger than his incel side.

5. Snape fell in with that group because that was how he thought he could keep from being targeted by the pure bloods himself.

That's BS. There's no indication that Snape was bullied by the Nazis into becoming a Nazi. The closest we have to that is that Snape recognized that being a half blood put him on a lower tier than the pure bloods, so he started using the name "Severus Prince" instead of "Severus Snape", to show that he had no allegiance to his filthy Muggle father. He was one of the "good" half bloods.

Snape was a Nazi at age 10. He knew for certain that he wanted to be in House Nazi, that he hated the members of Gryffindor, and his only regret was that he wasn't able to drag his waifu into House Nazi with him.

Pre-war, he willingly joined the Hitler Youth while he was still in school, and quickly advanced to become the right hand man of Wizard Hitler, a man he greatly admired.

Even before the "bullying" incident, Lily pulled Snape aside and asked "What the fuck dude? What are you doing with those Hitler Youth guys? Have you seen what they are doing to people? They are literally evil." And Snape says "It's just pranks bro."

The most damning thing about the James Potter "bullying" incident is that James used the spell that Snape invented. James had to have seen it in use often enough to learn it. Yes, he enjoyed using it on Snape, he enjoyed the feeling of being the bully and the bad guy, but that does not make James and Snape anywhere near the same thing when James was just giving Snape a taste of his own medicine.

And, James was eventually sorry that he did that to Snape.

Snape meanwhile built and carried around at school a laceration shotgun, capable of inflicting wounds that can never be healed, and/or maybe death.

"What's your problem with Snape?" Lily asks of James. "I dunno, maybe the fact that he exists" answers James. That sounds like bullying logic, until you discover who Snape actually is and was as a person.

Snape went on to join the Death Eaters, became Wizard Hitler's right hand man and was directly involved in uncounted acts of murder and torture.

He gave Voldemort info that he knew would lead to the murder of children and families, and only became concerned when he learned that his unrequited waifu love was among one of the family members. Snape's attitude was "Fuck Neville Longbottom. Fuck Neville's parents. Fuck baby Harry. Double-fuck James Potter. They can all die, all of them. But please someone, save Lily Evans-Potter!"

Snape swore an oath to Dumbledore, and he openly assessed the value of his incel obsession at "infinity", so Dumbledore claimed ownership of his soul in exchange, and Snape was like "Damn your math, but you can't argue with math, so okay." Snape stopped being a Nazi because his incel side had grown more powerful than his Nazi side, and Dumbledore took advantage of that.

There's no evidence that Snape ever did any personal growth. He tormented Neville (a kid whose parents were tortured into insanity by Snape's friends thanks to Snape's direct actions). And Snape's last act was to stare in Harry's eyes as he masturbates to the fantasy image of Harry's dead mom, because "Fuck all of you, I have earned this." Also, Harry names his kid after Snape, because WTF Harry?

Snape was trash from A-to-Z, and that includes his school years. James Potter at his worst could not even hope to be as bad of a person as Snape was.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,849
James was a dick but he grew out of it.

Snape was bordering on the wizard equivalent of a school shooter (straight up making his own hexes, and they weren't all harmless. Sectum Sempra is super NOT harmless) and joined magic nazis when he grew up, only really face turning back because they went after the girl he liked.
 
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lemonade

Member
May 8, 2018
3,044
James was privileged from birth and he was again privileged to "redeem" himself outside of his bully phase.

Basically James was the rich white boy who was "popular" by being a bully and later get the chance to be a hero.
 

Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
James was privileged from birth and he was again privileged to "redeem" himself outside of his bully phase.

Basically James was the rich white boy who was "popular" by being a bully and later get the chance to be a hero.
James was best friends with outcasts like Lupin and Pettigrew
 

Soran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
697
James was privileged from birth and he was again privileged to "redeem" himself outside of his bully phase.

Basically James was the rich white boy who was "popular" by being a bully and later get the chance to be a hero.
James never abused his privilege like Malfoy did. When Sirius was disowned for not buying into the pure blood supremacy of his family it was James who offered a place to stay. Not to mention how far he went to make Lupin feel accepted and accepting weirdos like Pettigrew.
 

Annubis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
Oh boy, I read that as "Who was a worse person in School Days".

Potter was a bully so 100% Potter.
 

Rampage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,140
Metro Detriot

So was Snape. That is my point. 11 old kids tend to be terriable humans, regardless of up bringing, as shown both by Snape and James.

They come from opposite life styles: one from a poor abusive home in the muggle world, the other from a rich, supportive life of privilege in the wizarding world. Yet both were bullies.

James had the benefit to growing out of being a bully though popularity, family, friends, and supportive school life.

Snape, as this very poll presents was a loser from the start. He had no good family, only one real friend due to his self loathing of his muggle half due to his shitty father, and a school house that thrived on cut throat competion.

Snape was mentally damaged goods when he stepped on the Hogwarts Express, James had everything going for him.

Snape racist and bully stem from childhood trauma and fucking Hogwarts and the wizarding state should have stepped in ( just like they should have for Harry).

James had no reason to be a bully other than he wanted too. And because he was rich and popular, no one stopped him.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
why does hogwarts take all the asshole kids and isolate them into their own house anyways
Hogwarts was formed by four great Wizards who had four different teaching styles. They decided to divide the students into four groups.

Then Salazar Slytherin said "Oh, BTW guys, did I forget to mention? I'm a literal Nazi." He got side-eye from the other three until he decided to quit.

The other three didn't shut down his 1/4 of the school then and there. Too many parents and students liked the Nazi. The remaining teachers agreed that Slytherin's teaching methods were valid, it was just him personally who was a Nazi, so they hired a replacement teacher who was better about keeping his mouth shut and skeletons buried. And so, Slytherin House survived, as the Nazi-generating cancer of Hogwarts.

It should probably be noted that if the Slytherins were kicked out of Hogwarts, they'd just go somewhere else. Durmstrang, for example, has a former Death Eater as a Headmaster, and that school actually teaches "Dark Arts" as a subject (unlike Hogwarts, which only teaches Defense Against the Dark Arts).
 

Alcoremortis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,575
Ah, his pants. Okay. I admit my memory was off. Though now I'm just confused as hell.

Under his robes his "greying underpants" were exposed . . . But then the scene ends with James threatening to go one step further and take off his "pants"? That seems a little inconsistent, unless people in the U.K. use the words pants and underpants interchangeably.

In the UK, what Americans call pants are usually called trousers. And pants exclusively refers to underpants, I think.
 

n00bs7ay3r

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Aug 21, 2018
1,159
So was Snape. That is my point. 11 old kids tend to be terriable humans, regardless of up bringing, as shown both by Snape and James.

They come from opposite life styles: one from a poor abusive home in the muggle world, the other from a rich, supportive life of privilege in the wizarding world. Yet both were bullies.

James had the benefit to growing out of being a bully though popularity, family, friends, and supportive school life.

Snape, as this very poll presents was a loser from the start. He had no good family, only one real friend due to his self loathing of his muggle half due to his shitty father, and a school house that thrived on cut throat competion.

Snape was mentally damaged goods when he stepped on the Hogwarts Express, James had everything going for him.

Snape racist and bully stem from childhood trauma and fucking Hogwarts and the wizarding state should have stepped in ( just like they should have for Harry).

James had no reason to be a bully other than he wanted too. And because he was rich and popular, no one stopped him.
James was a kid on an unsupervised train who made fun of another kid because that is what kids do. They both had a chance to learn and grow. One of them became a nazi.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Wait James died at 21? He looked to be in his 40s in the movie
They messed around with the ages in the movies because Alan Rickman was 55 when they filmed Philosopher's Stone. That means that Snape (and by extension James and Lily) was 45 when Harry was born.

In the books, James and Lily graduated from high school, got married, got busy having their first kid, and then Snape/Voldemort came along and murdered them before they ever really had a chance to live adult lives.

It was worth messing with the timeline to get Alan Rickman as Snape.
 

Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,966
James was a kid on an unsupervised train who made fun of another kid because that is what kids do. They both had a chance to learn and grow. One of them became a nazi.

Did they really? Snape's environment surrounded by fellow Slytherin students was almost definitely worse than James' in Gryffindor.
 

RiOrius

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,081
There's admittedly some ambiguity to that scene. Whether James goes through with it isn't shown, but the exact words he uses (which I can't remember verbatim) suggested he was going to go through with it. Maybe it was a hollow threat just meant to scare Snape, but that's not how I interpreted the scene at the time I read it. I remember having a pretty visceral reaction to James' actions, not unlike Harry's reaction.

As for the Death Eaters, yes they're nazis and yes Snape (when we look at his life as a whole and not just a specific point in time) is clearly a worse piece of shit. I think it's heavily implied he's a murderer because he only becomes Dumbledore's double agent after he realizes Lily has been added to Voldermort's hit-list, which was well after Voldie's "war" was underway. As far as I'm concerned, he's an unredeemed dumpster fire of a human being, and he never truly repented for his crimes.

That being said, I'm not convinced that Voldie's school group was actively torturing/ killing people while they were in Hogwarts. Honestly, besides the creation of illegal curses, I don't think we were shown that they were much worse than most modern day Slytherins, who are routinely shown to be elitist, slur spewing, hex throwing jack asses.

While Voldie was taking his group down a dark path, I always interpreted his school days to be the "indoctrination" years where he radicalized his followers while playing the role of an honors student and class rep. If at that point he'd revealed to all of his followers that he'd murdered a girl in the bathroom and was slicing up his soul like confetti to make horcruxes, there's a chance some of them would have gone running for the hills.

It's hard to say for sure though because JK doesn't give us a ton of information about who knew what and when. I can fully accept Snape may have actually been a shittier person during his school days, but at the end of the day I just don't think JK gave me enough info to make that call.
I think you're a bit confused on timelines here. Snape was in Hogwarts from 1971-1978. Voldemort graduated Hogwarts in 1945. Snape wasn't one of Tom Riddle's friends: by the time he was in school, Voldemort was a grown-ass adult, going by the name Lord Voldemort, and already terrorizing the countryside.

In 1975, the year of the Underpants Incident, Voldemort was already such an active political figure that the then-Minister of Magic was forced out of office for failing to stop him.

Snape may not have murdered anyone himself, but Voldemort wasn't flying under anyone's radar at that time.
 
Oct 26, 2017
337
I recently listened to the The Ringer Binge Mode of Harry Potter (Like all 70+ hours of this shit).

The Ringer Archives - Binge Mode - Page 6

Presented by Chase Freedom

I never read the books from beginning to end so to listen to a podcast where they do a deep dive into the books was rather interesting. I think to answer the OP question if you're going off the books it not even a contest Snape. As someone who is more fimilar with the movies then yes it is definitely James.

I think the poll pretty much reflect who read versus watched the movies.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,819
James had no reason to be a bully other than he wanted too. And because he was rich and popular, no one stopped him.

The pity party for Snape really has to end. James didn't bully Snape they were both antagonistic towards each other from day one.

On the train we see Snape almost go full Anti-Muggle/Wizard supremacist on Petunia.

Screen-Shot-2020-02-17-at-9-19-17-PM.png


James chimes in when he hears Snape trying to sell another student on Syltherin House. James is being snarky but why wouldn't he speak up if its an an open secret in the Wizarding world that Syltherin is basically a school sanctioned 4Chan containment board/hate group.
Screen-Shot-2020-02-17-at-9-20-09-PM.png


Sirius is a good counterpoint to Snape. Sirius had a terrible family life and legacy but he choose different. Snape had Lily and even with all the rope she gave him he still kept doing a bunch of dark magic/joined the death eaters.
Screen-Shot-2020-02-17-at-9-24-45-PM.png
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,386
If you watch the movies, James, because this is all we get which does not exactly paint a picture of Snape being a racist turned nazi who came up with awful spells and bullied people just as much as James did.


In the books it is unequivocally Snape.
 

Keuja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,185
James is your usual douchebag. Snape joined a racist supremacist organisation advocating genocide.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,888
Manchester, UK
Nah, this is exposing some gross truths about how people view problematic/intolerant people in reality.

I don't view him positively, just the bar of "literal nazi" is a pretty low one to clear - and which Snape is able to do by his actions after Lily dies.

I think the redemption of Malfoy fits much better with what you are saying here. He is basically seen as ok by the end of the book, despite having done absolutely nothing to correct/address the actions that him and his family took throughout all 7 books.

I did just reread the books this past week actually.
He isn't a wizard nazi anymore, he works against them the whole time after he turns to Dumbledore. He rejects the former slytherin headmaster's portrait calling Hermione a mudblood. As for being a shithead, it's arguable he does it to keep up appearances because Dumbledore even tells him when Lily and James die that "The Dark Lord will return, and their child will be in great danger when he does." So it's best to appear that you are in fact a huge asshole still when you're trying to be a good spy.

But regardless, he is a huge shithead, under pretenses or not. Just gotta agree with this guy - he's not a nazi anymore. But he was one! Which squarely puts him worse than James in my opinion. At least James stopped being an asshole.

Thank you

why does hogwarts take all the asshole kids and isolate them into their own house anyways

Welcome to the British Public School system (which despite the name, are actually the most exclusive private schools in the country)
 

Rampage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,140
Metro Detriot
The pity party for Snape really has to end. James didn't bully Snape they were both antagonistic towards each other from day one.

That doesn't clear James and Sirius from their own actions. That is just favoritism toward the rich elite pure blood boy over poor halfblood boy. It takes two antogonize each other, they both should be sharing the blame.

On the train we see Snape almost go full Anti-Muggle/Wizard supremacist on Petunia.

Because he was a messed kid who never got any positive role model his entire life, then his shitty ideal were reinforced Wizarding world allowing him to join a known racist house. The Muggle world beat him, the Wizarding world disowned him because he was a half-blood. Yes, I can have pity for a 11 year old Snape because society- muggle and wizard, turned their back on him. 18 and older, no- his spark of "I fucked up" came to late.

I have no pity for 11 year old James. With all his positive up bring, he choose to be a dick. He choose violent means to deal with the world around him. He outgrew bullying phase. But did he ever atone for it? Everyone just assumes James was only "fighting Nazi", yet one of his friends, Pettigrew, willingly betrayed James and Lilly. Pettigrew was willing to let them be killed- Snape was not.

Sirius is a good counterpoint to Snape. Sirius had a terrible family life and legacy but he choose different.

Sirius went from living with one other the richest families, to moving in with his buddy who family was slightly left rich because he had the privilege of connection and means to do so. Sirius also mistreated a literal slave, Kreecher. So he is selectively racists- he is okay with variant humans- but house elves- fuck them. Sirius tried to murder Snape using the Womping Willow. Like Snape, Sirius never outgrew his violent, childhood mentality. This was James' best friend.

Snape had Lily and even with all the rope she gave him he still kept doing a bunch of dark magic/joined the death eaters.

No denying it- because Sytherin welcomed him with open arms. Lilly was the only good person trying.
 
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Dec 22, 2018
432
I think you're a bit confused on timelines here. Snape was in Hogwarts from 1971-1978. Voldemort graduated Hogwarts in 1945. Snape wasn't one of Tom Riddle's friends: by the time he was in school, Voldemort was a grown-ass adult, going by the name Lord Voldemort, and already terrorizing the countryside.

In 1975, the year of the Underpants Incident, Voldemort was already such an active political figure that the then-Minister of Magic was forced out of office for failing to stop him.

Snape may not have murdered anyone himself, but Voldemort wasn't flying under anyone's radar at that time.

Whoa, okay. Thank you for breaking down the timeline and even providing a link. The timeline has always been a bit blurry to me, even back when I was reading through the books for a second time, and it's only become harder for me map the sequence of events in my mind. Things like how Professor McGonagall was handled in Fantastic Beasts 2 also don't help.

This honestly re-contextualizes things for me and makes it much harder to give Snape the benefit of the doubt during his school years. I knew there was a significant age difference between Voldie and Snape, but I didn't know it was thirty years or that at that point Voldie was the wizarding world's most wanted criminal. For me, there's a difference between blaming an impressionable kid from joining what on the surface looks like an edgy dark magic club, and joining what's essentially the youth branch of a hate group that was started by, and is still affiliated with, a known criminal.

All that aside, even if I feel compelled to change my vote from James to Snape, that doesn't somehow justify James' actions. He was an obvious bully ever since that confrontation with Lily and Snape on the Hogwarts express, and there's straight-up no "legitimate" or "justified" reason to expose a kid's genitalia to a sneering crowd just for laughs (which is what's heavily implied to have happened at the end of the pensieve memory). But that's just my two cents, people are free to disagree.
 
May 13, 2019
1,589
Only tangentially related, perhaps, but I was reading the HP wiki and I'm actually surprised that Draco's parents Lucius and Narcissa remained pureblood supremacists despite everything that happened during the saga. To the point of them being disappointed that Draco's wife Astoria chose to not taught his son Scorpius that muggles are the scum of the Earth.
 

Maedhros

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,872
The reaaaaaaaaaaaaaach some of the arguments trying to defend Snape here are ASTOUNDING...