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Who struggled more in the transition to 3D? Game Freak or Sonic Team?
- Thread starter Uncle at Nintendo
- Start date
Sonic's problem isn't 3D, because the 2D sections in these Sonic games are easily the worst parts of those games. Like the physics and level design are just plain awful compared to classic Sonic/Mania. Visually and technically, 3D Sonic games are quite good.
I wasn't a big fan of Sword and Shield, but it's a fine enough game. The worst you can say about mainline Pokémon titles is that some have been unambitious and lacking in content. But Shadow the hedgehog? 06? Black Knight? These are legitimately poorly made games.
Specifically with the transition to 3D, easily Sonic Team. They still struggle with making good Sonic games in the 3D space, with Generations and Colors being the only ones that were generally good, whereas Game Freak didn't suffer nearly as much since the Pokemon formula still works in 3D (though their general ambition has generally declined since X/Y's release).
However, Game Freak's struggles, specifically in HD development, are more prone to being scrutinized, since they are the primary developer of games in the highest-grossing media franchise in the world. The scrutiny is honestly well-deserved, too; their recent output is miles behind their contemporaries in the JRPG space, and it seems like they lack both ambition and overall competence as a developer. They're basically approaching a AAA franchise like a D-tier developer, and it's pretty sad to see.
However, Game Freak's struggles, specifically in HD development, are more prone to being scrutinized, since they are the primary developer of games in the highest-grossing media franchise in the world. The scrutiny is honestly well-deserved, too; their recent output is miles behind their contemporaries in the JRPG space, and it seems like they lack both ambition and overall competence as a developer. They're basically approaching a AAA franchise like a D-tier developer, and it's pretty sad to see.
Nothing about 3D Pokemon games gameplay-wise would be fixed by reverting back to 2D. Meanwhile it took Sonic Team multiple generations of 3D hardware to get to a genuinely good game with Sonic Colors and Generations.
The way I see it what´s hurting GF is the change from handheld to console, they basically, (almost never) worked on console. The 3DS games were good, Sega doesn´t have that excuse, they been primarily stationary console for a while.
I feel like the 3D aspects of Pokémon are, essentially, aesthetics. 3D Pkmn is still the same as the 2D games. For examples, battles don't involve positioning in 3D space or anything.
Sonic in 3D is fundamentally different from the 2D titles. Quality of those mechanics aside, some Sonic titles have been on par with contemporary video games. Stuff like Unleashed and Generations look good for when they came out.
I'd still be somewhat inclined to say Sonic Team has struggled more, but mostly because they've actually attempted to transition Sonic gameplay to 3D. Game Freak hasn't really attempted to take advantage of the unique aspects of 3D gameplay-wise outside of the Wild Area in SwSh, and that's still pretty negligible.
Sonic in 3D is fundamentally different from the 2D titles. Quality of those mechanics aside, some Sonic titles have been on par with contemporary video games. Stuff like Unleashed and Generations look good for when they came out.
I'd still be somewhat inclined to say Sonic Team has struggled more, but mostly because they've actually attempted to transition Sonic gameplay to 3D. Game Freak hasn't really attempted to take advantage of the unique aspects of 3D gameplay-wise outside of the Wild Area in SwSh, and that's still pretty negligible.
LMAO! This is true! Some of these 3D Sonic games are just impossible for me to play.
Sonic at least had some decent 3D games early on, and it's style had to change the most by going 3D. GF's 3D outings have been so weak that I'd legit rather they go back to 2D; they don't really use it to elevate the series in any way. The battles still look basic with minimum animation, the field isn't effected by the battle, and the models themselves are pretty lifeless, even the overworld is barely changed. Sonics quality shot down after Adventure 2, but I think they did a way better job elevating the series with 3D than mainline Pokemon games ever have.
you asked, you recieved. don't bother trying to move the goalposts
I don't really understand the poll, 3D Pokemon's main issues are graphical. They transitioned the classic gameplay into 3D fine, but that's kind of the other issue, not enough innovation. But with Sonic team it's the complete opposite, so what are we comparing?
Sonic team, it's no contest. The graphics for both are great imo, so it comes down to gameplay for me and all of the 3D Pokemon games are all really fun to play, as for Sonic? All I have to say is Sonic 06.
With the exception of Sword and Shield DLC that I haven't played (and I guess the Wild Area, but I can't give a flat featureless land of nothing much credit), Game Freak's core design in 3D is essentially identical to their design in 2D, just with a change in perspective. Fixed camera angles, routes are still straight line paths highly sectioned off by trees or cliffs, the little ledges that you can only jump down, etc. It's sort of like calling A Link Between Worlds a 3D Zelda. Technically true, but its core design is still firmly planted in its 2D roots, even if it has a 3D presentation. I will give them credit for moving away from grids with Sun and Moon, but not much more than that.
Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Generations, and Sonic Colors are all decent to good 3D Sonic games. I wouldn't say it's 3D that's the culprit for bad Sonic games, just an abundance of poor ideas and execution on Sonic Team's part.
Sonic Team is unquestionably the worse developer, but to answer the thread I guess I would say Game Freak. They've yet to have their Mario 64 or OoT moment and fully embrace 3D design. Legends appears to be the first full game with that, so I'm hopeful that it goes well.
Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Generations, and Sonic Colors are all decent to good 3D Sonic games. I wouldn't say it's 3D that's the culprit for bad Sonic games, just an abundance of poor ideas and execution on Sonic Team's part.
Sonic Team is unquestionably the worse developer, but to answer the thread I guess I would say Game Freak. They've yet to have their Mario 64 or OoT moment and fully embrace 3D design. Legends appears to be the first full game with that, so I'm hopeful that it goes well.
Game Freak's 3D efforts so far maybe don't look stellar but they function just fine.
Sonic Team had dysfunctional games YEARS into their 3D efforts.
Sonic Team had dysfunctional games YEARS into their 3D efforts.
I think the Pokemon 3D games have been fine, if not a bit unremarkable. I've never liked any of the 3D Sonic games I've played, including Generations.
I know these are drive-bys and these kinds of posts never respond to counter points (I'd love to be wrong though!) but between SA1/2/Colors/Generations, we've legit had at least 4 3D Sonic games that reviewed well on release and were overall critically well received.
Like I get that these games may not be your thing, but does it help your case at all needing to reinvent history saying stuff like "there's never been a good/7-out-of-10 game" when that's factually not the case?
With that said, GF clearly wins the battle here, even if their games are boring as hell to me and I'm barely interested in them. Despite the peaks, lows are just too low for Sonic, compared to Pokemon which has never released a title in an alpha state or given your main character a gun just for funzies.
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Sonic Colors
An extraordinary amusement park has been seen orbiting around the home planet of Sonic the Hedgehog, and rumors are spreading that an alien race of Wisps, who have a unique colorful energy, are being held captive there by the evil Dr. Eggman. Soon after arriving at the amusement park, Sonic...www.metacritic.com
Sonic Generations
Set across three defining eras from 20 years of Sonic the Hedgehog video game history, the instantly recognisable environments of Sonic Generations have been re-built in stunning HD and are now playable in both classic side scrolling 2D from 1991, as well as modern 3D style found in Sonic's most...
Era be like
I don't really care about review scores. To me, no 3D Sonic games could give the same kind of joy that Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles (and Sonic 3 & Knuckles) provided. More than that, a lot of them either made me very bored, or physically sick.
So yeah, to me the Sonic games definitely struggled a lot more with the transition to 3D.
Lol, as if they would even respond at all. It's the same shit every time, and the same radio silence when engaged. Drive-by's be drivin by.
For me, the more the industry changes away from a lot of these things, the more I don't want them to change in Pokemon. By being conservative, Pokemon ends up in a place where nothing else really plays like it. And I think variety of experiences is more important than ambition.
Game Freak seems to agree which is why we are getting the more ambitious Legends with the DP remakes (which brings back random battles and I'm happy about that, since I love random battles.)
I don't see how Game Freak had a super rough time?
Did they do it the way everyone wanted? 'Course not.
That said the last several games have tons of people who love and adore them where even most Sonic fans will argue that shit like 06, Lost Worlds, and Unleashed are trash.
Did they do it the way everyone wanted? 'Course not.
That said the last several games have tons of people who love and adore them where even most Sonic fans will argue that shit like 06, Lost Worlds, and Unleashed are trash.
I don't think Colors and especially Generations are good at all and them not being as bad as the truly terrible Unleashed and 06 isn't high praise.
Hey a response!
I mean I totally get that. I just get frustrated with the usual "was never good" rhetoric that plagues Sonic topics, where the same black/white mentality spills over into the 3D game discussion (or lack thereof).
For example, BotW even after 20 hours in simply bored me and I had to put it down. But I would never say it was a bad game or the Switch never had good 3D Zelda. It just wasn't my thing. I just wish people would articulate this instead of the three word post drive-by speaking in absolutes.
Game Freak makes more stable games but they're also completely lacking ambition. Sun & Moon has been the only mainline Pokemon game I've played since Gen 5 since all their other output has been wholly uninteresting. X&Y still looked and played like a 2D game (this was extremely disappointing to me when I first saw it) and Sword & Shield doesn't really have a hook to it outside of the Wild Area. At least Sun & Moon finally created a proper 3D space to explore, which is why I got it and enjoyed it. I also appreciated the change in structure it had with Pokemon Gyms being replaced by trials. I just want Game Freak to do more, and I really hope Legends turns out well since it's probably their most divergent effort from the series staples to date.
In comparison, I still love Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 to this day, Sonic Heroes, Unleashed (sorta), and Colors are fun, and Generations is amazing. There are definitely some stinkers among the 3D titles, but I like how Sonic Team actually was willing to take risks even if it didn't always pan out. Sonic '06 is such a magnificent dumpster fire that it's still talked about 15 years later, and there's something I can sorta respect about that. Compare that to the reception a mediocre game like Sonic Forces got. Like, who even talks about that game anymore? Heck, it's the first mainline Sonic game I didn't purchase because it did absolutely nothing special. I don't want Sonic to be stagnant like Pokemon feels right now even if the games are technically better, and if future games take cues from Forces then my interest in the series will likely continue to wane.
And frankly, the problems with Sonic mostly came from Sega going 3rd-party as opposed to Sonic going 3D.
In comparison, I still love Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 to this day, Sonic Heroes, Unleashed (sorta), and Colors are fun, and Generations is amazing. There are definitely some stinkers among the 3D titles, but I like how Sonic Team actually was willing to take risks even if it didn't always pan out. Sonic '06 is such a magnificent dumpster fire that it's still talked about 15 years later, and there's something I can sorta respect about that. Compare that to the reception a mediocre game like Sonic Forces got. Like, who even talks about that game anymore? Heck, it's the first mainline Sonic game I didn't purchase because it did absolutely nothing special. I don't want Sonic to be stagnant like Pokemon feels right now even if the games are technically better, and if future games take cues from Forces then my interest in the series will likely continue to wane.
And frankly, the problems with Sonic mostly came from Sega going 3rd-party as opposed to Sonic going 3D.
Compared to Sonic Team, Gamefreak had no trouble, but I explained in my earlier comment that they had a rough time in terms of actual technical ability and in actually region/level design actually using 3D in any meaningful way.
In terms of technical design, they'd had trouble with their games looking fairly simplistic, having low poly models, low quality textures, poor lighting, etc.
In terms of gameplay, pretty much all the 3DS games were flat or used tiered topography like the 2D games. They arguably didn't actually design 3D worlds till the Wild Area, but Legends looks to be a big improvement (hopefully it isn't empty)
Tough comparison, but an interesting question.
Haven't played the 3D Pokemon games, but I feel like not nailing what's essentially a lite 3D RPG is far more inexcusable. Surely, there's plenty of examples for them to follow?
Translating the 2D Sonic gameplay to 3d on the other hand seems like a much harder nut to crack.
Haven't played the 3D Pokemon games, but I feel like not nailing what's essentially a lite 3D RPG is far more inexcusable. Surely, there's plenty of examples for them to follow?
Translating the 2D Sonic gameplay to 3d on the other hand seems like a much harder nut to crack.
They got it right on the first attempt.
Like, I enjoy Generations and such, but 3D Sonic has never felt better to control than in the Adventure games.
Young me LOVED Sonic Adventure 2, but it's very clear that Sonic Team really struggled in figuring out how to do Sonic in 3D.
Game Freak's 3D strategy is the equivalence of if Sonic Team has made Sonic 4 on Dreamcast and it was just a new 2D Sonic game with CG graphics. Sun/Moon's problem is they tried to both maintain the original Pokemon flavour and add in a big modern open world. That's not an issue with 3D, it's an issue with intent.
Game Freak's 3D strategy is the equivalence of if Sonic Team has made Sonic 4 on Dreamcast and it was just a new 2D Sonic game with CG graphics. Sun/Moon's problem is they tried to both maintain the original Pokemon flavour and add in a big modern open world. That's not an issue with 3D, it's an issue with intent.
Honestly 808's I hadn't seen it as I was largely responding to the Op.
In regards to what you said, I can kinda get it? I don't think the simplistic look was full a technical hurdle. Maybe that played a bit into it, but I never got the impression they had wanted to go that much further, or that they aimed for higher and technical issues held them back/was hard on them.
That said the gameplay systems I think is much more something I can agree on and happy to see/hear that it looks as though Legends is taking a step forward in world design.
Sonic's early 3D games were some of my favorites as a kid. They may be spotty, but no way I'm gonna disrespect my childhood by saying they're worse than Pokemon Sword/Sheild! Way more ambitious and fun than that derivative game.
I will go to my grade saying Sonic's early 3D outings surpass the latest Pokemon games.
I will go to my grade saying Sonic's early 3D outings surpass the latest Pokemon games.
Pokemon at least adheres to a formula that ensures a base level of competence in their games, even though the 3D games are underwhelming and frequently undercooked they're never an outright mess like virtually every 3D Sonic. Tbh Sun and Moon were one 'skip cutscene' function away from being great entries. Sonic on the other hand tries to re-invent the wheel in a way nobody asked for in practically every entry, makes some buggy-ass unfinished mess that does nothing to conjure the feel of the classic entries in the franchise
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Yeah, part of it was an intentional style, but you can still do simplistic, but technically solid. I look at Animal Crossing: New Horizons as a game with really simple designs, but the animations, texture/material work, and lighting all make it look really good. I think the Pokemon games are still missing those extra details.
Good post.
The adventures are legit good games, especially for the time, and actually evolved the gameplay of the classics. 3D Pokémon is the exact same thing as 2D Pokémon but way worse. Only thing they got going for them is that they never releasing unplayable messes like 06 and Boom.
Both are bad transitioning from 2D to 3D
At least Sonic had two great games - adventure 2 and generations while there were a few okay games like lost world and forces (which I enjoyed still)
The Pokemon games after fifth gen were still good but not as memorable or great as the 2d games
At least Sonic had two great games - adventure 2 and generations while there were a few okay games like lost world and forces (which I enjoyed still)
The Pokemon games after fifth gen were still good but not as memorable or great as the 2d games
gamefreak games after the 3D leap were at worst pretty meh
sonic 06 is a disaster on every level
sonic 06 is a disaster on every level
Legends looks to be. No more super flat surfaces, no more fixed camera, for the whole game. Hopefully it works out