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Deleted member 40797

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T. S. Eliot is widely acknowledged as the greatest modernist poet. I return to his works constantly; they resonate with our postmodern condition and their literary merits are infinitely fruitful. However, he was an avowed racist, classist, misogynist and antisemite.

His early works beg the question: can prejudice have literary merit? This question resonates with Eliot moreso than contemporaries who shared his prejudices, because his early works often deploy anti-semitic tropes against the reader's sentiments - he is transparently rather than opaquely antisemitic. You cannot excuse his antisemitism as coincidence.

For example, take Sweeney Among the Nightengales - a sarcastic commentary on the state of modern society. The poem contrasts the plight of Sweeney, an animal drinking in a brothel entertained by prostitutes, with that of Agamemmnon, notoriously murdered by his wife, having sacrificed his daughter for favorable winds. The poem describes the brothel's owner as "Rachel née Rabinovich / [who] tears at the grapes with murderous paws." This plays on contemporary stereotypes of Jewish women as lascivious, duplicitous, and animalistic. In other words: to understand the poem, one must understand Eliot's opinion of Jewish women.

We can go further, citing Gerontion or Burbank with a Baedeker: Bleinstein With a Cigar, which contain even more repulsive antisemitic images. Fortunately, his later works are largely devoid of explicit antisemitic imagery. Nevertheless, I cannot shake the feeling that his comparison between the first world war and the Punic Wars in The Waste Land, along with his depiction of the foreign merchant and Phoenician sailor, have nothing to do with his earlier expressed antisemitism.

The TLDR of my post is twofold: (1) should we "cancel" Eliot for his prejudices, given that he never renounced them and should have known better; and (2) how should we respond to contemporary authors who display similar hatred, but produce works of great literary merit? I realize that this post is mostly a personal conflict between my love of Eliot's poetry and his ideologies, but am wondering whether beauty (something I would ascribe to Eliot's poetry) can arise from such deep prejudice?
 
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Blade24070

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Oct 26, 2017
6,994
I think this just comes down to personal morality. Can you separate the artist from the art? Can you enjoy something knowing the creator's morals, beliefs, and actions clash so much with your own? If yes, keep enjoying their content. If not, well, you'll stop, and it won't be hard.

For example, I was hardly a huge fan of Chris Brown before the Rihanna incident, but ever since, I've actively avoided any and all of his music, even if I liked the music (ie Birthday Cake with Rihanna). Even if she herself forgave him and interacted with him, I didn't think he deserved forgiveness (or a continued career).
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,290
Nottingham, UK
I was under the impression "cancelling" was about deplatforming or otherwise protesting against current public figures, not addressing historically questionable people and their works
 

Deleted member 2779

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I think you have to first consider what cancelling is, what it looks like, and whether it can even be achieved.
 

Deleted member 8861

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First- I don't think many people will know enough about T.S. Eliot himself to discuss your points about him in particular.

Second- History is complicated and it fucking sucks. We should be informed about the prejudices of the creators of any art we consume and determine how it influences their work. However, that's the thing that sucks about bigotry- it isn't committed by (only) fully irredeemable, ugly, worthless people; it's also committed by people who can see and express the beauty of (other) things, who can create and appreciate art, who can even care about the suffering of one demographic while pounding another into the ground. Bigots can be talented, and artistic, and beautiful in a certain way. Artistic merit (not just beauty) can arise from/despite prejudice. The Divine Comedy too, for example, depicts gay people and non-believers in hell and limbo respectively, it's the depiction and glorification of a stance on Christianity that would rightly be called bigoted and barbaric today, but it is still, unquestionably, art, and its artistic merit does stem from its prejudice to some extent. I wouldn't scorn someone who thought gay people don't belong in hell but still adored Dante's work.

If nothing else, bigoted art has value for the sole reason that it's a historical depiction and documentation of prejudice that can be tied to the sociological circumstances of its cultural and historical context
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,290
Nottingham, UK
This is 'Era though. Everyone's a target once people dig deeper beyond their initial adulation.
I'm not adverse to critiquing these people, there's absolutely a point to examining the shitiness of historical figures. But how does one cancel them? Just make sure when they are discussed their politics or positions are part of the conversation
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
First- I don't think many people will know enough about T.S. Eliot himself to discuss your points about him in particular.

Second- History is complicated and it fucking sucks. We should be informed about the prejudices of the creators of any art we consume and determine how it influences their work. However, that's the thing that sucks about bigotry- it isn't committed by (only) fully irredeemable, ugly, worthless people; it's also committed by people who can see and express the beauty of (other) things, who can create and appreciate art, who can even care about the suffering of one demographic while pounding another into the ground. Bigots can be talented, and artistic, and beautiful in a certain way. Artistic merit (not just beauty) can arise from/despite prejudice. The Divine Comedy too, for example, depicts gay people and non-believers in hell and limbo respectively, it's the depiction and glorification of a stance on Christianity that would rightly be called bigoted and barbaric today, but it is still, unquestionably, art, and its artistic merit does stem from its prejudice to some extent. I wouldn't scorn someone who thought gay people don't belong in hell but still adored Dante's work.

If nothing else, bigoted art has value for the sole reason that it's a historical depiction and documentation of prejudice that can be tied to the sociological circumstances of its cultural and historical context
Yeah, this. People fucking love Lovecraft. He was notoriously an ardent white supremacist, with extreme views for even the time period and sympathized with Hitler. His work, however, is pervasive in popular culture to the point of it being absolutely ridiculous to "deplatform" him. It's too late, he's already an integral part of history and science fiction. All we can do is keep that in people's memory, without trying to excise his immense impact on literature and fiction.
 

Deleted member 8593

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A pointless discussion without defining what the act of "cancelling" includes. Especially in regards to dead people.
 

Wilson

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User warned: threadwhining
Should cancel this thread, there's far more important issues in the world than whether TS Eliot was a dickhead or not.
 

Arkestry

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Oct 26, 2017
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I was under the impression "cancelling" was about deplatforming or otherwise protesting against current public figures, not addressing historically questionable people and their works
Yeah, this is always how it seemed to me. It's a pro-active move, and one that can hopefully either serve as a cautionary tale to other artists, or maybe even cause the artist in question to reassess and change their behaviours.

With T.S.Eliot, I think that the question isn't whether we should 'cancel' him for his abhorrent views, but rather that we should do what we can to ensure that the study of him, both academically and for personal enjoyment, shouldn't be done without awareness of those views. It's not necessarily about separating art from artist, but instead being able to digest the art while acknowledging the bigotry extolled by the artist. Obviously with some poems its easier to get away with not acknowledging it than others, as you've pointed out.

The question that really worries at me though, is what great art we have missed out on due to a white male-centric bias in Western culture over the past millennium.
 
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Deleted member 40797

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I think this just comes down to personal morality. Can you separate the artist from the art? Can you enjoy something knowing the creator's morals, beliefs, and actions clash so much with your own? If yes, keep enjoying their content. If not, well, you'll stop, and it won't be hard.

For example, I was hardly a huge fan of Chris Brown before the Rihanna incident, but ever since, I've actively avoided any and all of his music, even if I liked the music (ie Birthday Cake with Rihanna). Even if she herself forgave him and interacted with him, I didn't think he deserved forgiveness (or a continued career).

The dilemma isn't whether you can separate the art from the artist. For example, I can separate Paul Gauguin's works from his personal life. The dilemma is that a medium like poetry (perhaps like film) requires something like a belief in what the artist thinks. In other words, can we find poetic worth (aesthetic worth) in something so despicable as Eliot's sentiments?

I would also like to point out that my use of "cancel" was intended to provoke.
 

Dennis8K

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Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Cancel cancel

As for the topic, have the information be out there about them and let people choose whether to engage with a persons work or not. There is no universal as it depends on the individual if you can tolerate something that contains obvious prejudice like the T.S. Eliot example.
 

astro

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Oct 25, 2017
56,901
The dilemma isn't whether you can separate the art from the artist. For example, I can separate Paul Gauguin's works from his personal life. The dilemma is that a medium like poetry (perhaps like film) requires something like a belief in what the artist thinks. In other words, can we find poetic worth (aesthetic worth) in something so despicable as Eliot's sentiments?

I would also like to point out that my use of "cancel" was intended to provoke.

That is completely up to you.

For me, it would ruin a piece entirely to discover this, and while I could appreciate technical value of a piece as you mention it, I would not linger. Plenty of art to be moved by that isn't bigoted at its core.
 

Rassilon

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Oct 27, 2017
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The notion that we should erase historical figures and creatives from history because of a wide spectrum of fallibilities is p r o b l e m a t i c.

Surely these flawed individuals can serve as vehicles to learn more about historical context, and help avoid glorifying myths about the past?

There are often blindspots for particularly beloved authors, creatives and historical figures, and having as discourse about their issues is far more productive than just trying to erase them.
 
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Deleted member 40797

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For me, it would ruin a piece entirely to discover this, and while I could appreciate technical value of a piece as you mention it, I would not linger. Plenty of art to be moved by that isn't bigoted at its core.

You have hit upon my dilemma. The problem is that my knowledge (of the author's views) has infected my reading of his other works (which do not display such views as explicitly, but perhaps refer to them obliquely). I would appreciate a reference to a work as moving as The Waste Land of the Four Quartets.
 

astro

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah, that guy is a clown. I can't stand him. GTFO Mediking!

Agreed! I'm just glad I never have to read his posts again!

You have hit upon my dilemma. The problem is that my knowledge (of the author's views) has infected my reading of his other works (which do not display such views as explicitly, but perhaps refer to them obliquely). I would appreciate a reference to a work as moving and complex as Eliot's later works.
That's subjective. I'm not moved by Eliot's works at all, even if I can comprehend their technical worth.

Do the elements that move you exist aside from the problematic aspects?
 

Gakidou

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Oct 30, 2017
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pip pip cheerio fish & chips
I think my philosophy is "nothing is sacred"
You should be as open to gaining something great for yourself from marginalised art and literature as you do from widely regarded works. I think someone's problematic point of view will almost invariably undermine the messages in their work, but you should never be taking a single piece of writing as gospel anyway.
It's not like people publish books and diaries by known genocidal dictators and serial killers with the intent that we can all read them and go "hmm, maybe they had a point". It's to learn firsthand the nuances and insidiousness of prejudice, how even great thinkers often flit between profound truth and paranoid delusion, to be able to analyse these things is the point of both studying and recreationally enjoying literature. Don't burn books, burn pedestals.
 
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Deleted member 40797

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For what it's worth, I suggest that everyone attempt to read (speak aloud) and understand The Waste Lane (link above) before responding to my post.
 

astro

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Absolutely. I was convinced of their worth (in an academic and personal sense) before I learned about Eliot's political and social views.
Therefore I don't see an issue.

Honestly, how uncomfortable are you in this situation without considering how others might view you?
 

PogiJones

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Oct 27, 2017
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I'm of the firm belief that erasing someone's good contributions to the world because they did something else that's bad is a wrong mindset that's unfortunately common today. I think if a book has a positive impact on people, then it turns out the author murdered someone, the author should be imprisoned but the book should keep doing what good it can in the world. If the book advocates murder, then the work itself never had the value to begin with. I think it's a shame when something good exists and something bad happens, then we willingly exacerbate the badness by removing the good as well. So not only do we get bad, we lose good, by choice.

Your example, however, is a bit different than most (what I consider) absurd "cancellations," because if I take what you say as true (I haven't read him, except maybe back in middle school), then the work itself is marred.

Put another way: Does the work promote antisemitism? If no, then his personal flaws shouldn't erase the positive things he contributed to the world, because we just lose more by erasing good things. If yes, however, then there is a good argument to be made for not promoting the work any more.

In short, I'm a believer in a work being evaluated on the work's merit, not the author's merit. If the author's merit is manifest in the work, then that once again goes toward the work's merit being the thing to evaluate. So whatever that merit is would by my answer to you.
 
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Deleted member 40797

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Therefore I don't see an issue.

Honestly, how uncomfortable are you in this situation without considering how others might view you?

Entirely (and as I said above, this is a personal quarrel). I feel about as uncomfortable now reading or sharing Eliot's poetry as I do now reading Nozick in public (in other words, while I am a progressive socialist, I feel the public bearing upon me; it's like an argument that I reject but nevertheless rebut)).
 
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Deleted member 40797

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In short, I'm a believer in a work being evaluated on the work's merit, not the author's merit. If the author's merit is manifest in the work, then that once again goes toward the work's merit being the thing to evaluate. So whatever that merit is would by my answer to you.

The problem is: this is the very argument made to recover Eliot's works from the charges you (we) bring against it.
 

astro

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Oct 25, 2017
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Entirely (and as I said above, this is a personal quarrel). I feel about as uncomfortable now reading or sharing Eliot's poetry as I do now reading Nozick in public (in other words, while I am a progressive socialist, I feel the public bearing upon me; it's like an argument that I reject but nevertheless rebut)).

Case by case basis, then, imo. There's no real neat answer here, you'll just have to make peace with each piece.

I personally think if the work is a masterpiece of some kind and doesn't specifically proliferate these things, then it's a positive worth to us.
 
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Deleted member 40797

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Case by case basis, then, imo. There's no real neat answer here, you'll just have to make peace with each piece.

The problem is that making peace with a piece involves accepting the sentiments invoked by the piece. Hence my second question: can prejudice inform works of merit? We are accustomed to misogyny, but not racism or antisemitism (as Eliot invokes). Why do we consider one worse? It isn't, after all.
 

astro

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Oct 25, 2017
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The problem is that making peace with a piece involves accepting the sentiments invoked by the piece. Hence my second question: can prejudice inform works of merit? We are accustomed to misogyny, but not racism or antisemitism (as Eliot invokes). Why do we consider one worse? It isn't, after all.

My post answers your question.

"I personally think if the work is a masterpiece of some kind and doesn't specifically proliferate these things, then it's a positive worth to us."

IMO, there is enough work in the world without propping up any works that do specifically do this.
 
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Deleted member 40797

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My post answers your question.

"I personally think if the work is a masterpiece of some kind and doesn't specifically proliferate these things, then it's a positive worth to us."

IMO, there is enough work in the world without propping up any works that do specifically do this.

The point is that Eliot does exactly what your italicized portion describes. He deploys antisemitism with literary merit. That is the problem.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,290
Nottingham, UK
Should cancel this thread, there's far more important issues in the world than whether TS Eliot was a dickhead or not.
So we should just shut any threads that aren't discussing the absolute most important issues then? What a bad take
That is completely up to you.

For me, it would ruin a piece entirely to discover this, and while I could appreciate technical value of a piece as you mention it, I would not linger. Plenty of art to be moved by that isn't bigoted at its core.
That's how I see these situations.
 

8byte

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I'm not sure I see what the point is of this? If you want to cancel anything that has a problematic history, be prepared to stay in a bubble..in your living room...with the lights off and no electricity. What's important isn't that we cancel problematic things, but that we understand why they were problematic, and teach future generations why that is abhorrent.
 

Stinkles

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Oct 25, 2017
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If anything there's more value to be had from spotlighting the man, the history, the moment and the context so that his body of work can be considered warts and all. Forgetting and whitewashing history are why we have teenage lulz nazis. Forgetting and ignoring history are fatal diseases.