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Which Ganon is your favorite?

  • The Legend of Zelda - Ganon, Prince of Darkness

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • A Link to the Past - Ganon, Prince of Thieves

    Votes: 39 3.6%
  • Ocarina of Time - Ganondorf, King of the Gerudo

    Votes: 304 28.4%
  • The Wind Waker - Ganondorf, the Defeated

    Votes: 591 55.2%
  • Twilight Princess - Ganondorf, the Imprisoned

    Votes: 79 7.4%
  • A Link Between Worlds - Yuga Ganon, the Resurrected

    Votes: 2 0.2%
  • Breath of the Wild - Calamity Ganon, the Abomination

    Votes: 36 3.4%

  • Total voters
    1,070

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
Wind Waker Ganon easy.

He punches the living shit out of Link on multiple occasions.

Link's confrontation with Ganon is a bit more personal as well, since he kidnapped Link's little sister. So yeah any other vote other than WW is completely wrong in this case.

Ganon is a cardboard box in every other Zelda game by comparison. Especially TP and OOT.
 
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mindsale

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,911
Yeah this is just a Wind Waker threat. Actually humanized his motivations, make him sympathetic, didn't want to kill children until he went mad.
 

Oreiller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,831
Wind Waker's is the only Ganon that actually seems like a character and not a boring caricature.
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,605
Well, actually... *pushes up glasses*

Ganon doesn't make an appearance in The Wind Waker, only Ganondorf. There are phantoms and puppets based on Ganon, but aren't actually him.

So the TWW votes obviously need to be discarded.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Oh man, how did I not vote Wind Waker???

But really, I voted Ocarina because they just nailed the aesthetic and tone of a genuinely evil character, and evil isn't a word that should be used lightly. A lot of this depiction is about what villainy and cruelty means in terms of poetry. It's an evil power-hungry lord, that wants to use the very forces that made the world happen in the first place, in order to take over the seat of government and cripple anything in the world he does not care for. Hyrule is left in the dirt under his rule, and people have to live by what is left in smaller communities that they have any control over, but the world that surrounds them has become unfriendly and uncaring, cold and dying.

To me, that is the simplest throughline I've ever seen that describes what evil truly means... and you sense the creepiness and the rise to his darkness as you climb up his tower. In his isolated lair in a tower narrowing to a single top, you can tell that there is only one source of this evil, and it isn't the structures of the things he made that's the cause of it, there's just Ganondorf. Alone and by himself as a pin at the top of his own castle, something not even the former rulers of the land did. That isolation is a characterization of the ego of evil lords, who only has concerns for themselves.

Ganondorf is Zelda's definition of what "Evil" means. That is the franchise's message to the world.

3f3a34f294d8a218ce7b026fe2e6c7d4.jpg

296px-Zeldaganonscastle.jpg
 
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Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I really liked the idea of BotW Ganon. Given up on resurrecting as a man or pigman, and destroyed everything. He's not very interesting in terms of character, but as a theme I really liked him. He felt like a real threat. He won the first time around.
I liked the idea that the resurrection brough out the "blight" into hyrule and there's some applicability to themes of environmentalism and global warming and such to righting the wrongs of a world corrupted by man-made mistakes.

I sort of over-interpreted it initially, but the boss room ganon is in is a Shiekah laboratory and Ganondorf is like a frankenstein. Aonuma explained this room as being the "culmination of all the areas Link has gone to" represented in glyphs of each Divine beast on four sides - a motif Aonuma also used for Majora's Mask's final boss-room. However, to me there's some really underlying cynicism to this room because it's Shiekah, who are portrayed as good guys that are somewhat ancient and their golden age has passed. Our current Shiekah that are left are trying to either relive or rediscover the Shiekah Greatness. I just couldn't help but think that even good people like Impa or Purah tinkered with powers they shouldn't be able to use, and that Ganon was brought back from the dead as a frankenstein "Calamity Ganon" because someone couldn't watch their own curiosity.

I think there's such a genuine sense of "secrecy" to the fact that there's this huge Shiekah lair underneath the throne room, and it's something I would gush pretty hard about if BoTW2 retroactively expanded upon. Perhaps Ganondorf can arise from the dead now and reveal that one of the living Shiekah has betrayed Hyrule wanting his Triforce of Power or something.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,470
New York
i hate the game with my dying last breath but i love how SS set him - er, i mean, "demise" - up

latest
It's odd because that's probably the single greatest thing I hated about SS by a significant margin. Demise to me is such a shit character and introduction to the series. It's like they wanted to top Ganondorf and did so in the lamest and most extreme way possible. While an enemy of pure evil isn't exactly new, least of all new for the series, his being the pure embodiment and origin of all evil was just terrible. Ganon/dorf of the past may have been a pretty one dimensional character but Demise is even worse since he just has to one-up Dorf in evilness.

And worst of all was his stupid curse that retroactively undermines and permeates every single game in the series and every game to come. Ganondorf is no longer just some power hungry evil dude in his own right, no instead he's just some unwitting puppet of Demise's carrying out his will and revenge against the Goddess in some endless battle. Same for Link and Zelda. It's such a wasted and foolish thing to concretely layout some literal embodiment of evil in a series like this as well as establish definitive Lore reasons for why the hero/princess appear. I'll be very happy if they never mention Demise and his stupid curse ever again.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Wind Waker Ganon. In that game he just felt like more than a villain, he actually felt like a real character.
Nah, that's Twilight Princess. A completely flavorless form of Ganondorf who accomplishes nothing, doesn't have a prescence throughout the story and only threatens you with mundane taunts and stops your progress right at the end to be a final boss. I have nothing but bad things to say about that version of Ganon, and we should all be directing our hatred towards that.
 

WestEgg

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
Ocarina of Time Ganondorf was such a good villain. He doesn't have the depth of Wind Waker Ganondorf, but for the story he's in, he plays the part so well that I can't not vote for him.
 

mrfusticle

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,548
Fuckin Twilight Princess gets a grand disservice on this board.






He's never been done better. No Zelda game has ever had as a great of an end as the series of battles you go thru against him. Straight up dream come true. Ganon pulled out all the stops in the game. He was the Demon King.


If you like cheesy Saturday morning cartoon villains I guess .. WW Ganon had menace and pathos... easy winner
 

OmegaX

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,119
I think there's such a genuine sense of "secrecy" to the fact that there's this huge Shiekah lair underneath the throne room, and it's something I would gush pretty hard about if BoTW2 retroactively expanded upon. Perhaps Ganondorf can arise from the dead now and reveal that one of the living Shiekah has betrayed Hyrule wanting his Triforce of Power or something.
The Yiga clan are Sheikah that betrayed Hyrule. I'm sure we'll see more of them in the sequel.
 

Krathoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
482
I liked how OoT Ganon gets so pissed at the end.

There is an Aha! moment when fighting TP Ganon.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Wind Waker Ganondorf is the more interesting character...

But Ocarina of Time's Ganondorf/Ganon is the more effective and engaging villain.
giphy.gif
 

WhtR88t

Member
May 14, 2018
4,580
I voted Wind Waker because it's the best design, but I always remember being blown away at the final battle in Skyward Sword. The music, the reflections, sword controls (they mostly worked) all came together.

 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
I voted Wind Waker because it's the best design, but I always remember being blown away at the final battle in Skyward Sword. The music, the reflections, sword controls (they mostly worked) all came together.


Just have to add my own anecdote story here...

This SHOULD have been an epic fight for me. The atmosphere, the intense battle, the high stakes, the music swells... I'm one hit away from victory... and one mistake away from defeat. I go in for the final blow and...

... Fi pops up to inform me that my batteries are running low and I need to change them.

I have never had a "moment" ruined as hard for me in a video game or been sucked out of a game as hard as I did at that pivotal moment.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Just have to add my own anecdote story here...

This SHOULD have been an epic fight for me. The atmosphere, the intense battle, the high stakes, the music swells... I'm one hit away from victory... and one mistake away from defeat. I go in for the final blow and...

... Fi pops up to inform me that my batteries are running low and I need to change them.

I have never had a "moment" ruined as hard for me in a video game or been sucked out of a game as hard as I did at that pivotal moment.
Lmao!!!! That's so lame
 

WhtR88t

Member
May 14, 2018
4,580
Just have to add my own anecdote story here...

This SHOULD have been an epic fight for me. The atmosphere, the intense battle, the high stakes, the music swells... I'm one hit away from victory... and one mistake away from defeat. I go in for the final blow and...

... Fi pops up to inform me that my batteries are running low and I need to change them.

I have never had a "moment" ruined as hard for me in a video game or been sucked out of a game as hard as I did at that pivotal moment.
That's a shame. I didn't mind Fi except for the constant nagging.

Skyward Sword has its issues for sure, but it also has some of the best moments, dungeons, bosses etc of any Zelda game. Shame a lot of people slept on it.
 

Lwill

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,627
As a character, Wind Waker's, but in terms of music, the fight itself, the presentation, the design, the setting, the stakes, and pound-for-pound overall it's Ocarina's.

That simple "GANON" boss text, with no appended subtitle for the first time ever, was extremely impactful. It's never been done better.
Yes, I love that boss title scene from OoT, and it was part of the reason why it became a core memory. Every other boss in the game had a subtitle with their name, but seeing just "GANON" on the screen as he was finishing the transformation felt very epic.

With that said, I like WW Ganondorf's characterization the best with his more calm, calculating, and wiser demeanor.

BOTW's Calamity Ganon is not really Ganondorf anymore, and that seems to be a part of the story in the sequel. I'm interested in how that will go.
 

CurseVox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,356
Massachusetts (USA)
Loved loved loved the final battle with Ganon in Windwaker. I remember playing it all night and had that battle as the sun was rising outside my livingroom. It felt so epic. Definitely one of my favorite moments gaming.
 

eraFROMAN

One Winged Slayer
Member
Mar 12, 2019
2,877
OoT, he's a young psycho that becomes less young and more psycho in 7 years. There's no reason to try to like him, outside of meeting his adoptive parents (which you brutally murder anyway.) He ends up being an interesting villain because you never see him doing anything, you just see his influence through the world and the dialogue, then find out he's a massive nerd playing his organ at the top floor of his stolen castle.
 

WestEgg

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
OoT, he's a young psycho that becomes less young and more psycho in 7 years. There's no reason to try to like him, outside of meeting his adoptive parents (which you brutally murder anyway.) He ends up being an interesting villain because you never see him doing anything, you just see his influence through the world and the dialogue, then find out he's a massive nerd playing his organ at the top floor of his stolen castle.
Ganondorf playing his own theme music at the top of his tower is something that should by all rights be incredibly silly, but at the time I was so floored by just how fucking cool it was.
 

DiK4

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,085
If you like cheesy Saturday morning cartoon villains I guess .. WW Ganon had menace and pathos... easy winner
WW Ganon was well done and it was nice to feel sorry for him once, but Ganondorf in TP is him in his rawest and most pure villainous state before he just becomes a complete monster and loses his humanity.

Which is why he is masterfully done because he does damn near everything possible to exact his revenge. He does not make foolish Saturday morning cartoon mistakes like WW Ganon or even OOT Ganon.

He straight up orchestrates a war between fucking dimensions.
 

Mejilan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,836
I don't know, the dude you fight at the end looked really Ganondorf-ish to me.

Otherwise Breath of the Wild should probably also excluded.

You have it backward. Ganondorf resembles Demise, and there's good reason for that. I'll get into that, eventually.
Doesn't change the fact that Demise and Ganondorf are two extremely separate entities; both as characters and in sheer power.
I'm writing all this not to be condescending, but because I'm not sure if you've actually played the game.
Lots of folks slept on SS because it hit kind of late in the Wii's life, it required a Wii Motion Plus remote, or due to their dislike of the Wii's motion controls in general.

Skyward Sword is essentially the first game in the series. It predates the birth of the first Ganondorf by at least centuries (I'm a little murky on exactly how much time), the establishment of the kingdom of Hyrule and it's royal family, and for much of the game, the creation of the Master Sword.

Demise is basically an ancient god of pure hatred, one that hails from an underworld realm spills out of fissures on the surface with armies of monstrous minions and battles the surface-dwellers and the Goddess Hylia to something of a stalemate. Technically, Hylia wins and seals away Demise, but she fails to kill him, and in turn loses her own divinity in the process. IIRC, when the three Golden Goddesses of Creation (Din, Nayru, Farore) left the world after its creation, leaving behind the three Triforce pieces, the goddess Hylia was tasked with being their steward. Demise wanted that power, and the ensuing battle left the surface world ruined, Demise imprisoned, and Hylia with limited time to take steps to ensure the future of the world and her subjects.

She took the last survivors off the surface by ripping chunks of what remained of the world, creating Skyloft. She also created the Goddess Sword and Fi to lead the hero prophesied to end Demise for good, then effectively died as a goddess and chose to be reincarnated as a mortal, the priestess Zelda. The residents of Skyloft still worshipped Hylia, and came to be known as the Hylians whose descendants make up the residents of later games' Hyrule, taking their name from hers.

Link and Zelda each have their own separate but parallel journeys in SS, Link bonding with Fi and the Goddess Sword on quest to reforge it into the Master Sword, and Zelda traveling with Impa (one of the Sheikah, ancient servants of the Goddess Hylia) to various purifying springs/shrines to awaken her latent abilities granted by the Goddess Hylia. Their paths occasionally intersect, and in a neat twist, you actually get to see snippets of Zelda's and Impa's journey as the credits roll.

By the end, you have Link, the hero of prophecy, wielding the first form of the Master Sword, and the first Zelda to ever wield Hylia's ability to seal away evil. Demise and Link have an ultimate showdown (a pretty epic one, at that). Demise dies, his darkness gets absorbed into and sealed by the Master Sword, the blade itself locked away to let Demise's essence decay away over time (establishing its legacy as the Sword of Evil's Bane and the Sword that Seals the Darkness), and Link and Zelda ultimately remain behind on the surface to establish the kingdom of Hyrule. Demise leaves behind a curse, however, one that establishes the cycle of rebirth we see in most of the future mainline Zelda games. A cycle that sees an incarnation of his hatred return again and again to plague Link's and Zelda's descendants. This incarnation is, of course, Ganondorf (and Ganondorf's red hair is clearly meant to evoke Demise's flaming hair). But Demise himself is done, and he was powerful enough to practically extinguish the surface-dwellers and essentially take out a primary Goddess of Hyrule in the process, WITHOUT the Triforce (he never attained it during, before, or after SS, IIRC).

As we know, Ganondorf WAS ultimately able to attain the Triforce, or at least a third of it, but even with it, he was never able to come close to achieving what Demise did without the Triforce. He's a significantly weaker incarnation of Demise. Yes, he's occasionally managed to usurp Hyrule's rulers and take the country over for a time, or even bring the civilization to the brink (100 years prior to BotW, as an example), but he's never taken out a deity, directly or indirectly.

Calamity Ganon is an interesting twist when taking all this context into account. He's obviously not a character in the sense that Ganondorf is in the older games. BotW takes place in a far-future Hyrule, especially relative to Skyward Sword's place in the timeline. Read a bit between the lines, one can infer that the person known as Ganondorf is so far gone, that pretty much nothing remains other than Demise's remnant Malice (which is essentially what fuels and perpetuates the cycle of rebirth). Ganon is no longer a character with any actual agency, but has rather devolved over the millennia (and countless defeats) into a nigh-unstoppable force of nature. Or unnature, if you will. One could argue that he's the purest distillation of Demise's remnant Malice yet, but it's taken literal ages and innumerable defeats to get to that point.

BotW2 may add to or modify this narrative. That mummy from the trailer apparently buried and seemingly suppressed (by some unknown power that may resemble Twili magic) beneath Hyrule Castle is most likely Ganondorf, and it's probably safe to assume that we'll see him resurrected or resuscitated fairly early into the game. This will also probably give us more retroactive insight into the nature of BotW1's Calamity Ganon. Perhaps it isn't that Ganondorf is so far gone as I mentioned in the paragraph above, but that he's simply displaced and divorced from the Malice that fuels Calamity Ganon. Missing in action, if you will. We won't know until the sequel hits. Certainly, BotW isn't the first Zelda game that features a Ganon without a Ganondorf. But all other instances are much, much closer to Skyward Sword's origin story than Breath of the Wild is.

It's been almost 3 years since I played BotW, and around 5 since I played SS, so I apologize if I got some details wrong. I think I nailed most of the important story beats, however. And as is the nature with the Zelda games, there's always SOME room for interpretation. This is by design. I personally don't accept an interpretation that Demise = Ganondorf, however. To me, Ganondorf is the realization of an evil god's (or demon lord's) dying curse. There's a clear and unambiguous link (if you'll pardon the word-play) between Demise and Ganondorf/Ganon, but they're not even remotely the same creature. Given what we know of the lore, it's probably safe to assume that had Demise actually secured the Triforce, or even one-third of it, he would have become truly unstoppable in a way that Ganondorf/Ganon has never managed. Similarly, the original Zelda was a mortal reincarnation of the Goddess Hylia, but wasn't Hylia herself, and could only wield, at best, a fraction of Hylia's power. Much like Ganondorf perpetuating across the ages, Zelda's power has been passed down to her descendants via her bloodline. All part of the same cycle of rebirth.

But the point of this long-winded spiel (apologies for its length), is that there's plenty of in-game lore justification for leaving Demise out of the poll while including Calamity Ganon, and it has little to do with how Skyward Sword was received by a vocal and toxic minority.
 

Thornquist

Member
Jan 22, 2018
1,499
Norway
Musou Ganon has the best design
hyrule-warriors_33.jpg
Urgh.

Overdesigned anime crap. I can smell the belt-buckles.

Everyone keeps going WW Ganondorf because of some throwaway lines at the end.
As a all around villain, he has never surpassed his introduction in OoT, and you find his best beast design there too.

Its OoT. You don't always need a sympathetic villain - Kefka proved that a couple of years prior.
 

xendless

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Jan 23, 2019
10,622
Best: Ocarina, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess
Worst: Breath of the Wild, hopefully better in the sequel
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,630
I voted Wind Waker because it's the best design, but I always remember being blown away at the final battle in Skyward Sword. The music, the reflections, sword controls (they mostly worked) all came together.



Yeeeeees. It was such a great moment for me too. I was cheering when I finally knocked him down and put down that final blow.

Just have to add my own anecdote story here...

This SHOULD have been an epic fight for me. The atmosphere, the intense battle, the high stakes, the music swells... I'm one hit away from victory... and one mistake away from defeat. I go in for the final blow and...

... Fi pops up to inform me that my batteries are running low and I need to change them.

I have never had a "moment" ruined as hard for me in a video game or been sucked out of a game as hard as I did at that pivotal moment.

As a SS defender, I can absolutely feel you on this. That game drank AA batteries like nothing I've ever seen.

You have it backward. Ganondorf resembles Demise, and there's good reason for that. I'll get into that, eventually.
Doesn't change the fact that Demise and Ganondorf are two extremely separate entities; both as characters and in sheer power.
I'm writing all this not to be condescending, but because I'm not sure if you've actually played the game.
Lots of folks slept on SS because it hit kind of late in the Wii's life, it required a Wii Motion Plus remote, or due to their dislike of the Wii's motion controls in general.

Skyward Sword is essentially the first game in the series. It predates the birth of the first Ganondorf by at least centuries (I'm a little murky on exactly how much time), the establishment of the kingdom of Hyrule and it's royal family, and for much of the game, the creation of the Master Sword.

Demise is basically an ancient god of pure hatred, one that hails from an underworld realm spills out of fissures on the surface with armies of monstrous minions and battles the surface-dwellers and the Goddess Hylia to something of a stalemate. Technically, Hylia wins and seals away Demise, but she fails to kill him, and in turn loses her own divinity in the process. IIRC, when the three Golden Goddesses of Creation (Din, Nayru, Farore) left the world after its creation, leaving behind the three Triforce pieces, the goddess Hylia was tasked with being their steward. Demise wanted that power, and the ensuing battle left the surface world ruined, Demise imprisoned, and Hylia with limited time to take steps to ensure the future of the world and her subjects.

She took the last survivors off the surface by ripping chunks of what remained of the world, creating Skyloft. She also created the Goddess Sword and Fi to lead the hero prophesied to end Demise for good, then effectively died as a goddess and chose to be reincarnated as a mortal, the priestess Zelda. The residents of Skyloft still worshipped Hylia, and came to be known as the Hylians whose descendants make up the residents of later games' Hyrule, taking their name from hers.

Link and Zelda each have their own separate but parallel journeys in SS, Link bonding with Fi and the Goddess Sword on quest to reforge it into the Master Sword, and Zelda traveling with Impa (one of the Sheikah, ancient servants of the Goddess Hylia) to various purifying springs/shrines to awaken her latent abilities granted by the Goddess Hylia. Their paths occasionally intersect, and in a neat twist, you actually get to see snippets of Zelda's and Impa's journey as the credits roll.

By the end, you have Link, the hero of prophecy, wielding the first form of the Master Sword, and the first Zelda to ever wield Hylia's ability to seal away evil. Demise and Link have an ultimate showdown (a pretty epic one, at that). Demise dies, his darkness gets absorbed into and sealed by the Master Sword, the blade itself locked away to let Demise's essence decay away over time (establishing its legacy as the Sword of Evil's Bane and the Sword that Seals the Darkness), and Link and Zelda ultimately remain behind on the surface to establish the kingdom of Hyrule. Demise leaves behind a curse, however, one that establishes the cycle of rebirth we see in most of the future mainline Zelda games. A cycle that sees an incarnation of his hatred return again and again to plague Link's and Zelda's descendants. This incarnation is, of course, Ganondorf (and Ganondorf's red hair is clearly meant to evoke Demise's flaming hair). But Demise himself is done, and he was powerful enough to practically extinguish the surface-dwellers and essentially take out a primary Goddess of Hyrule in the process, WITHOUT the Triforce (he never attained it during, before, or after SS, IIRC).

As we know, Ganondorf WAS ultimately able to attain the Triforce, or at least a third of it, but even with it, he was never able to come close to achieving what Demise did without the Triforce. He's a significantly weaker incarnation of Demise. Yes, he's occasionally managed to usurp Hyrule's rulers and take the country over for a time, or even bring the civilization to the brink (100 years prior to BotW, as an example), but he's never taken out a deity, directly or indirectly.

Calamity Ganon is an interesting twist when taking all this context into account. He's obviously not a character in the sense that Ganondorf is in the older games. BotW takes place in a far-future Hyrule, especially relative to Skyward Sword's place in the timeline. Read a bit between the lines, one can infer that the person known as Ganondorf is so far gone, that pretty much nothing remains other than Demise's remnant Malice (which is essentially what fuels and perpetuates the cycle of rebirth). Ganon is no longer a character with any actual agency, but has rather devolved over the millennia (and countless defeats) into a nigh-unstoppable force of nature. Or unnature, if you will. One could argue that he's the purest distillation of Demise's remnant Malice yet, but it's taken literal ages and innumerable defeats to get to that point.

BotW2 may add to or modify this narrative. That mummy from the trailer apparently buried and seemingly suppressed (by some unknown power that may resemble Twili magic) beneath Hyrule Castle is most likely Ganondorf, and it's probably safe to assume that we'll see him resurrected or resuscitated fairly early into the game. This will also probably give us more retroactive insight into the nature of BotW1's Calamity Ganon. Perhaps it isn't that Ganondorf is so far gone as I mentioned in the paragraph above, but that he's simply displaced and divorced from the Malice that fuels Calamity Ganon. Missing in action, if you will. We won't know until the sequel hits. Certainly, BotW isn't the first Zelda game that features a Ganon without a Ganondorf. But all other instances are much, much closer to Skyward Sword's origin story than Breath of the Wild is.

It's been almost 3 years since I played BotW, and around 5 since I played SS, so I apologize if I got some details wrong. I think I nailed most of the important story beats, however. And as is the nature with the Zelda games, there's always SOME room for interpretation. This is by design. I personally don't accept an interpretation that Demise = Ganondorf, however. To me, Ganondorf is the realization of an evil god's (or demon lord's) dying curse. There's a clear and unambiguous link (if you'll pardon the word-play) between Demise and Ganondorf/Ganon, but they're not even remotely the same creature. Given what we know of the lore, it's probably safe to assume that had Demise actually secured the Triforce, or even one-third of it, he would have become truly unstoppable in a way that Ganondorf/Ganon has never managed. Similarly, the original Zelda was a mortal reincarnation of the Goddess Hylia, but wasn't Hylia herself, and could only wield, at best, a fraction of Hylia's power. Much like Ganondorf perpetuating across the ages, Zelda's power has been passed down to her descendants via her bloodline. All part of the same cycle of rebirth.

But the point of this long-winded spiel (apologies for its length), is that there's plenty of in-game lore justification for leaving Demise out of the poll while including Calamity Ganon, and it has little to do with how Skyward Sword was received by a vocal and toxic minority.

Excellent synopsis. Very good read.
 
May 25, 2019
6,026
London
You have it backward. Ganondorf resembles Demise, and there's good reason for that. I'll get into that, eventually.
Doesn't change the fact that Demise and Ganondorf are two extremely separate entities; both as characters and in sheer power.
I'm writing all this not to be condescending, but because I'm not sure if you've actually played the game.
Lots of folks slept on SS because it hit kind of late in the Wii's life, it required a Wii Motion Plus remote, or due to their dislike of the Wii's motion controls in general.

Skyward Sword is essentially the first game in the series. It predates the birth of the first Ganondorf by at least centuries (I'm a little murky on exactly how much time), the establishment of the kingdom of Hyrule and it's royal family, and for much of the game, the creation of the Master Sword.

Demise is basically an ancient god of pure hatred, one that hails from an underworld realm spills out of fissures on the surface with armies of monstrous minions and battles the surface-dwellers and the Goddess Hylia to something of a stalemate. Technically, Hylia wins and seals away Demise, but she fails to kill him, and in turn loses her own divinity in the process. IIRC, when the three Golden Goddesses of Creation (Din, Nayru, Farore) left the world after its creation, leaving behind the three Triforce pieces, the goddess Hylia was tasked with being their steward. Demise wanted that power, and the ensuing battle left the surface world ruined, Demise imprisoned, and Hylia with limited time to take steps to ensure the future of the world and her subjects.

She took the last survivors off the surface by ripping chunks of what remained of the world, creating Skyloft. She also created the Goddess Sword and Fi to lead the hero prophesied to end Demise for good, then effectively died as a goddess and chose to be reincarnated as a mortal, the priestess Zelda. The residents of Skyloft still worshipped Hylia, and came to be known as the Hylians whose descendants make up the residents of later games' Hyrule, taking their name from hers.

Link and Zelda each have their own separate but parallel journeys in SS, Link bonding with Fi and the Goddess Sword on quest to reforge it into the Master Sword, and Zelda traveling with Impa (one of the Sheikah, ancient servants of the Goddess Hylia) to various purifying springs/shrines to awaken her latent abilities granted by the Goddess Hylia. Their paths occasionally intersect, and in a neat twist, you actually get to see snippets of Zelda's and Impa's journey as the credits roll.

By the end, you have Link, the hero of prophecy, wielding the first form of the Master Sword, and the first Zelda to ever wield Hylia's ability to seal away evil. Demise and Link have an ultimate showdown (a pretty epic one, at that). Demise dies, his darkness gets absorbed into and sealed by the Master Sword, the blade itself locked away to let Demise's essence decay away over time (establishing its legacy as the Sword of Evil's Bane and the Sword that Seals the Darkness), and Link and Zelda ultimately remain behind on the surface to establish the kingdom of Hyrule. Demise leaves behind a curse, however, one that establishes the cycle of rebirth we see in most of the future mainline Zelda games. A cycle that sees an incarnation of his hatred return again and again to plague Link's and Zelda's descendants. This incarnation is, of course, Ganondorf (and Ganondorf's red hair is clearly meant to evoke Demise's flaming hair). But Demise himself is done, and he was powerful enough to practically extinguish the surface-dwellers and essentially take out a primary Goddess of Hyrule in the process, WITHOUT the Triforce (he never attained it during, before, or after SS, IIRC).

As we know, Ganondorf WAS ultimately able to attain the Triforce, or at least a third of it, but even with it, he was never able to come close to achieving what Demise did without the Triforce. He's a significantly weaker incarnation of Demise. Yes, he's occasionally managed to usurp Hyrule's rulers and take the country over for a time, or even bring the civilization to the brink (100 years prior to BotW, as an example), but he's never taken out a deity, directly or indirectly.

Calamity Ganon is an interesting twist when taking all this context into account. He's obviously not a character in the sense that Ganondorf is in the older games. BotW takes place in a far-future Hyrule, especially relative to Skyward Sword's place in the timeline. Read a bit between the lines, one can infer that the person known as Ganondorf is so far gone, that pretty much nothing remains other than Demise's remnant Malice (which is essentially what fuels and perpetuates the cycle of rebirth). Ganon is no longer a character with any actual agency, but has rather devolved over the millennia (and countless defeats) into a nigh-unstoppable force of nature. Or unnature, if you will. One could argue that he's the purest distillation of Demise's remnant Malice yet, but it's taken literal ages and innumerable defeats to get to that point.

BotW2 may add to or modify this narrative. That mummy from the trailer apparently buried and seemingly suppressed (by some unknown power that may resemble Twili magic) beneath Hyrule Castle is most likely Ganondorf, and it's probably safe to assume that we'll see him resurrected or resuscitated fairly early into the game. This will also probably give us more retroactive insight into the nature of BotW1's Calamity Ganon. Perhaps it isn't that Ganondorf is so far gone as I mentioned in the paragraph above, but that he's simply displaced and divorced from the Malice that fuels Calamity Ganon. Missing in action, if you will. We won't know until the sequel hits. Certainly, BotW isn't the first Zelda game that features a Ganon without a Ganondorf. But all other instances are much, much closer to Skyward Sword's origin story than Breath of the Wild is.

It's been almost 3 years since I played BotW, and around 5 since I played SS, so I apologize if I got some details wrong. I think I nailed most of the important story beats, however. And as is the nature with the Zelda games, there's always SOME room for interpretation. This is by design. I personally don't accept an interpretation that Demise = Ganondorf, however. To me, Ganondorf is the realization of an evil god's (or demon lord's) dying curse. There's a clear and unambiguous link (if you'll pardon the word-play) between Demise and Ganondorf/Ganon, but they're not even remotely the same creature. Given what we know of the lore, it's probably safe to assume that had Demise actually secured the Triforce, or even one-third of it, he would have become truly unstoppable in a way that Ganondorf/Ganon has never managed. Similarly, the original Zelda was a mortal reincarnation of the Goddess Hylia, but wasn't Hylia herself, and could only wield, at best, a fraction of Hylia's power. Much like Ganondorf perpetuating across the ages, Zelda's power has been passed down to her descendants via her bloodline. All part of the same cycle of rebirth.

But the point of this long-winded spiel (apologies for its length), is that there's plenty of in-game lore justification for leaving Demise out of the poll while including Calamity Ganon, and it has little to do with how Skyward Sword was received by a vocal and toxic minority.

Really nice post. There were definitely parts of SS I found annoying: the lack of a true overworld, backtracking one time too many to the three main locations, and occasionally some of the controls. But I really love how it reframed the entire series' lore and story.
 

nicolasacmf

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,515
TWW had the best Dorf, easily. The only one that is an actual character.

Beast Ganon is definitely between ALttP and OoT. That said, Calamity > Beast.
 

falcondoc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,213
You have it backward. Ganondorf resembles Demise, and there's good reason for that. I'll get into that, eventually.
Doesn't change the fact that Demise and Ganondorf are two extremely separate entities; both as characters and in sheer power.
I'm writing all this not to be condescending, but because I'm not sure if you've actually played the game.
Lots of folks slept on SS because it hit kind of late in the Wii's life, it required a Wii Motion Plus remote, or due to their dislike of the Wii's motion controls in general.

Skyward Sword is essentially the first game in the series. It predates the birth of the first Ganondorf by at least centuries (I'm a little murky on exactly how much time), the establishment of the kingdom of Hyrule and it's royal family, and for much of the game, the creation of the Master Sword.

Demise is basically an ancient god of pure hatred, one that hails from an underworld realm spills out of fissures on the surface with armies of monstrous minions and battles the surface-dwellers and the Goddess Hylia to something of a stalemate. Technically, Hylia wins and seals away Demise, but she fails to kill him, and in turn loses her own divinity in the process. IIRC, when the three Golden Goddesses of Creation (Din, Nayru, Farore) left the world after its creation, leaving behind the three Triforce pieces, the goddess Hylia was tasked with being their steward. Demise wanted that power, and the ensuing battle left the surface world ruined, Demise imprisoned, and Hylia with limited time to take steps to ensure the future of the world and her subjects.

She took the last survivors off the surface by ripping chunks of what remained of the world, creating Skyloft. She also created the Goddess Sword and Fi to lead the hero prophesied to end Demise for good, then effectively died as a goddess and chose to be reincarnated as a mortal, the priestess Zelda. The residents of Skyloft still worshipped Hylia, and came to be known as the Hylians whose descendants make up the residents of later games' Hyrule, taking their name from hers.

Link and Zelda each have their own separate but parallel journeys in SS, Link bonding with Fi and the Goddess Sword on quest to reforge it into the Master Sword, and Zelda traveling with Impa (one of the Sheikah, ancient servants of the Goddess Hylia) to various purifying springs/shrines to awaken her latent abilities granted by the Goddess Hylia. Their paths occasionally intersect, and in a neat twist, you actually get to see snippets of Zelda's and Impa's journey as the credits roll.

By the end, you have Link, the hero of prophecy, wielding the first form of the Master Sword, and the first Zelda to ever wield Hylia's ability to seal away evil. Demise and Link have an ultimate showdown (a pretty epic one, at that). Demise dies, his darkness gets absorbed into and sealed by the Master Sword, the blade itself locked away to let Demise's essence decay away over time (establishing its legacy as the Sword of Evil's Bane and the Sword that Seals the Darkness), and Link and Zelda ultimately remain behind on the surface to establish the kingdom of Hyrule. Demise leaves behind a curse, however, one that establishes the cycle of rebirth we see in most of the future mainline Zelda games. A cycle that sees an incarnation of his hatred return again and again to plague Link's and Zelda's descendants. This incarnation is, of course, Ganondorf (and Ganondorf's red hair is clearly meant to evoke Demise's flaming hair). But Demise himself is done, and he was powerful enough to practically extinguish the surface-dwellers and essentially take out a primary Goddess of Hyrule in the process, WITHOUT the Triforce (he never attained it during, before, or after SS, IIRC).

As we know, Ganondorf WAS ultimately able to attain the Triforce, or at least a third of it, but even with it, he was never able to come close to achieving what Demise did without the Triforce. He's a significantly weaker incarnation of Demise. Yes, he's occasionally managed to usurp Hyrule's rulers and take the country over for a time, or even bring the civilization to the brink (100 years prior to BotW, as an example), but he's never taken out a deity, directly or indirectly.

Calamity Ganon is an interesting twist when taking all this context into account. He's obviously not a character in the sense that Ganondorf is in the older games. BotW takes place in a far-future Hyrule, especially relative to Skyward Sword's place in the timeline. Read a bit between the lines, one can infer that the person known as Ganondorf is so far gone, that pretty much nothing remains other than Demise's remnant Malice (which is essentially what fuels and perpetuates the cycle of rebirth). Ganon is no longer a character with any actual agency, but has rather devolved over the millennia (and countless defeats) into a nigh-unstoppable force of nature. Or unnature, if you will. One could argue that he's the purest distillation of Demise's remnant Malice yet, but it's taken literal ages and innumerable defeats to get to that point.

BotW2 may add to or modify this narrative. That mummy from the trailer apparently buried and seemingly suppressed (by some unknown power that may resemble Twili magic) beneath Hyrule Castle is most likely Ganondorf, and it's probably safe to assume that we'll see him resurrected or resuscitated fairly early into the game. This will also probably give us more retroactive insight into the nature of BotW1's Calamity Ganon. Perhaps it isn't that Ganondorf is so far gone as I mentioned in the paragraph above, but that he's simply displaced and divorced from the Malice that fuels Calamity Ganon. Missing in action, if you will. We won't know until the sequel hits. Certainly, BotW isn't the first Zelda game that features a Ganon without a Ganondorf. But all other instances are much, much closer to Skyward Sword's origin story than Breath of the Wild is.

It's been almost 3 years since I played BotW, and around 5 since I played SS, so I apologize if I got some details wrong. I think I nailed most of the important story beats, however. And as is the nature with the Zelda games, there's always SOME room for interpretation. This is by design. I personally don't accept an interpretation that Demise = Ganondorf, however. To me, Ganondorf is the realization of an evil god's (or demon lord's) dying curse. There's a clear and unambiguous link (if you'll pardon the word-play) between Demise and Ganondorf/Ganon, but they're not even remotely the same creature. Given what we know of the lore, it's probably safe to assume that had Demise actually secured the Triforce, or even one-third of it, he would have become truly unstoppable in a way that Ganondorf/Ganon has never managed. Similarly, the original Zelda was a mortal reincarnation of the Goddess Hylia, but wasn't Hylia herself, and could only wield, at best, a fraction of Hylia's power. Much like Ganondorf perpetuating across the ages, Zelda's power has been passed down to her descendants via her bloodline. All part of the same cycle of rebirth.

But the point of this long-winded spiel (apologies for its length), is that there's plenty of in-game lore justification for leaving Demise out of the poll while including Calamity Ganon, and it has little to do with how Skyward Sword was received by a vocal and toxic minority.

Thanks for the write up.
 

Mejilan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,836
Really nice post. There were definitely parts of SS I found annoying: the lack of a true overworld, backtracking one time too many to the three main locations, and occasionally some of the controls. But I really love how it reframed the entire series' lore and story.

I'm a pretty big Zelda fan. Have been since the O/G. I'm actually ashamed to admit that the vitriolic backlash against SS kept me from playing the game for a loooooong time. And I mostly LIKED the Wii and it's motion controls. Especially once WM+ came around to improve things further. I fiiiiinally decided to play SS for the first time on my Wii U like a year or so before BotW hit (and during a time when my BotW hype was climbing and climbing). Felt wrong to skip a mainline entry and jump right to BotW just because of, what, message board FUD? Game wound up with pretty stellar reviews, after all.

So, unsurprisingly, I wound up not just being pleasantly surprised by the game, but actually loving it. Great bosses. Great dungeons. Looooots of fluff cut (though yes, perhaps there was one round of revisits too many). Some of my favorite Zelda one-on-one combat even today (love BotW's sandbox and toolset, but for one-on-one fights, SS still wins IMO). And the lore. It's just as you said. It did a great job of respecting the later games while simultaneously reframing the narrative in an interesting way. It came way late in the franchise to be an origin story, but despite that, it just works.

I know that some folks weren't too keen on the concept of Demise or even the idea of Zelda being a Goddess reborn as a mortal, but as a big fan of the Lunar JPRGs (well, the first two, at least), I definitely dug the latter. Demise was fine. I liked the concept, though maybe I have some minor execution complaints. The final boss fight was epic as hell though. The Nameless King fight in Dark Souls 3 seems somewhat inspired by the Demise fight, IMO. I'm not entirely sure if he was a minor deity even lower on the rung than Hylia, or a demon lord, or what. I don't claim to be an expert on the Zelda pantheon. For the longest time, I thought Din, Nayru, and Farore were it. But he was definitely more powerful than, and distinct from, Ganondorf, IMO. Or even Ganon.