When was a gamed bashed by publishers just because it had a female protagonist?

[_zoipi]

I was just wondering, that having regularly female protaginists starts being not so weird anymore (according to own impression, correct me if i'm wrong). But there was a time when a game was deemed a comercial failure just to have a game not aimed at girls having a female protagonist.

I rmemeber that Shantae had problems and thought they selected the second player option (possibly when the game was still on PSX). And Dontnod had problems with both Life is Strange and Remember Me for having female protagonists and that was a hill Dontnod wanted to die on.

Any more examples of that? Not players bashing female protagonists, i say publishers and people on the industry claiming it wouldn't sell a dime.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I mean the issue is this type of discussion occurs before a game is even greenlit, so the vast majority of cases where it happens will never see the light of day

 

[¡ B 0 0 P !]

2K vetoed the Bioshosck Infinite cover with Elizabeth on it, fearing that she would turn off traditional FPS players.

 

[NDA-Man]

Back around 2010ish, there was a report that Activision would veto big budget games with female protagonists on the belief they wouldn't sell.

 

[UCBooties]

The developers of Indivisible said they needed to do a Kickstarter because no publisher would accept a female POC as a protag.

 

[scar654]

I remember Ubisoft saying that adding female characters would 'double the work'.

A shitty excuse.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

2K vetoed the Bioshosck Infinite cover with Elizabeth on it, fearing that she would turn off traditional FPS players.

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Oh yeah, on that same note Naughty Dog had to FIGHT for Ellie to be on the cover of TLOU

 

[VeryBerryPunch]

Remember Me

"That doesn't mean Nilin's sex wasn't on other people's minds, though. By the time Remember Me was shown to prospective publishers, it was too late to change Nilin from a woman to a man, and this was enough to cause potential backers to abstain from publishing the game. "We had some that said, 'Well, we don't want to publish it because that's not going to succeed. You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that,'" Moris told the Report. "

 

[_zoipi]

I remember Ubisoft saying that adding female characters would 'double the work'.

A shitty excuse.

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Yep. They could have savaged their asses just saying "never passed that idea through our heads". This screams just a developer mistake at worse. Maybe they chose from the designs they liked more and none were female. Not saying that they're saints, but they're not the evil people thought.

 

[Weiss]

Unless I'm mistaken Naughty Dog had to fight real hard to get Ellie onto the cover of The Last Of Us.

 

[TrafficCoen]

Hellblade was intended to just be called Senua's sacrifice but Ninja Theory's publisher told them games with a woman's name in the title sell worse so they decided on the title Hellblade and had the original name as a subtitle.

Now, I don't know if that's factually backed or was just the publisher thinking it was but the only game I can think of with female names in the title is Zelda and they sell pretty well.

 

[Chief Malik]

Remember the bullshit Microsoft pulled about a black female protagonist being on the cover of fable 3?

 

[Evolved1]

It was quite prominent for a long stretch, but always bullshit. There have always been successful female protags for major franchises... Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, etc. Unfortunately this industry has been run by fucking dorks wrongly believing they had to cater solely to even bigger fucking dorks, despite all evidence to the contrary. The industry would be even more successful if it had been more open during the PS2/3 era. It was around the time of TLoU releasing when the tide started to shift toward inclusion and representation. We're healthier and better for it, with a great deal of room for growth yet ahead.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Oh yeah like what the fuck, Resident Evil 5 had Chris AND Sheva both displayed prominently on the cover and that was one of the best selling RE game ever.

What the fuck are they talking about can't have a woman on the cover.

 

[Vervain]

I still remember the reports from 2015 about Sony being 'concerned' about having a female lead in Horizon: Zero Dawn, and how they brought in an external marketing group to basically confirm I'd having a female lead would tank the game's sales.

Sony was worried about a female protagonist in Killzone dev's new IP

Horizon Zero Dawn, the new game from the makers of Killzone, was the sort of title that had Shuhei Yoshida, head of Sony Computer Entertainment's head of world wide studios, nervous. It was, he...

www.polygon.com

 

[NDA-Man]

Now, I don't know if that's factually backed or was just the publisher thinking it was but the only game I can think of with female names in the title is Zelda and they sell pretty well.

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On occasion, Square Enix releases smaller budget games (XBLA-style, or mobile ones) titled " Lara Croft ______", like Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light , Lara Croft GO, and Lara Croft Relic Run. I think the "Lara Croft" branding is because the games all feature the classic version of Lara Croft, rather than the reboot version. But since those are all less ambitious spinoffs (to admittedly one of the most well-known female-led franchises in gaming history), they may not count.

 

[Evolved1]

I remember Ubisoft saying that adding female characters would 'double the work'.

A shitty excuse.

Click to shrink...

I always dislike when this example comes up, because it's actually true, what they said. If you want bespoke animation it IS double the work. It's complicated because that excuse always felt like a cop-out, to avoid having to admit representation wasn't a priority for them. But gamer reaction was that the statement was ridiculous bullshit (when it was 100% factual truth) they downplayed or outright dismissed the work required, instead of challenging the devs on their priorities, or their weak attempt to deflect criticism. Honestly everybody came out of that with egg on their faces. And still too, apparently.

 

[Mentalist]

I'm pretty sure a female protagonist was one of the reasons cited for why Mirror's Edge didn't sell well.

 

[LumberPanda]

Oh yeah like what the fuck, Resident Evil 5 had Chris AND Sheva both displayed prominently on the cover and that was one of the best selling RE game ever.

What the fuck are they talking about can't have a woman on the cover.

Click to shrink...

They chose to put Chris in front for a reason.

It was nice of them to put her in front on the gold edition though I guess.

 

[808s & Villainy]

It's all been hypothetical/behind closed doors with suits. I don't think there's ever been a case of a released game being bashed for a female lead

 

[Mórríoghain]

2K vetoed the Bioshosck Infinite cover with Elizabeth on it, fearing that she would turn off traditional FPS players.

Click to shrink...

And then we had this fucking travesty:

 

[Khanimus]

And Dontnod had problems with both Life is Strange and Remember Me for having female protagonists and that was a hill Dontnod wanted to die on.

Click to shrink...

While this is true, more specifically the developer mentioned how they received pushback against the notion of Nillin having a male love-interest because it would make the presumably male-centric playerbase "uncomfortable."

 

[_zoipi]

I always dislike when this example comes up, because it's actually true, what they said. If you want bespoke animation it IS double the work. It's complicated because that excuse always felt like a cop-out, to avoid having to admit representation wasn't a priority for them. But gamer reaction was that the statement was ridiculous bullshit (when it was 100% factual truth) they downplayed or outright dismissed the work required, instead of challenging the devs on their priorities, or their weak attempt to deflect criticism. Honestly everybody came out of that with egg on their faces. And still too, apparently.

Click to shrink...

Wait, so that excuse was really a valid one and people downplayed the work it needed to animate playable women?

 

[darz1]

Mass Effect has both male and female Commander Shepherds but despite that male Shep is clearly by most portrayals the default.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

They chose to put Chris in front for a reason.

It was nice of them to put her in front on the gold edition though I guess.

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They put Jill in front for the other version too

 

[scar654]

I always dislike when this example comes up, because it's actually true, what they said. If you want bespoke animation it IS double the work. It's complicated because that excuse always felt like a cop-out, to avoid having to admit representation wasn't a priority for them. But gamer reaction was that the statement was ridiculous bullshit (when it was 100% factual truth) they downplayed or outright dismissed the work required, instead of challenging the devs on their priorities, or their weak attempt to deflect criticism. Honestly everybody came out of that with egg on their faces. And still too, apparently.

Click to shrink...

They released later Odyssey and still sold a lot. So the double work it's worth it. Also, double the work doesn't mean crunch.

 

[Cranster]

Mass Effect has both male and female Commander Shepherds but despite that male Shep is clearly by most portrayals the default.

Click to shrink...

That was only the third game though.

 

[Mentalist]

While this is true, more specifically the developer mentioned how they received pushback against the notion of Nillin having a male love-interest because it would make the presumably male-centric playerbase "uncomfortable."

Click to shrink...

Nilin had a love interest?

 

[Evolved1]

Wait, so that excuse was really a valid one and people downplayed the work it needed to animate playable women?

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The amount of work would depend on how much unique animation you were doing and your quality standards. But yes, it was downplayed. Unfortunately it felt like the devs were using that as a means to deflect criticism that they really didn't make female characters a priority. Whole thing was a mess.

They released later Odyssey and still sold a lot. So the double work it's worth it. Also, double the work doesn't mean crunch.

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Yup. And the game was better for it. Also a big success and she was the more popular protag.

 

[Alanood]

Publishers Turned Down 'Life Is Strange' Video Game Because Of Female Lead

 

[_zoipi]

Nilin had a love interest?

Click to shrink...

You could say that yes. You saved a guy, can't recall if there was a full blown romance between those two.

 

[Thorn]

Mass Effect has both male and female Commander Shepherds but despite that male Shep is clearly by most portrayals the default.

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Not justifying it but didn't Bioware share some analytics that said like 80% of Sheperds were male or some crazy number?

 

[Siggy-P]

I always dislike when this example comes up, because it's actually true, what they said. If you want bespoke animation it IS double the work. It's complicated because that excuse always felt like a cop-out, to avoid having to admit representation wasn't a priority for them. But gamer reaction was that the statement was ridiculous bullshit (when it was 100% factual truth) they downplayed or outright dismissed the work required, instead of challenging the devs on their priorities, or their weak attempt to deflect criticism. Honestly everybody came out of that with egg on their faces. And still too, apparently.

Click to shrink...

Didn't stop them copy and pasting Arno's animations onto Elise.

(I get what you mean though)

 

[R dott B]

Remember the bullshit Microsoft pulled about a black female protagonist being on the cover of fable 3?

Click to shrink...

I remember this.

 

[Khanimus]

Nilin had a love interest?

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It's specifically why they received pushback on open displays of physical intimacy.

https://www.pcgamer.com/remember-me-publisher-female-hero/

 

[Lant_War]

I still remember the reports from 2015 about Sony being 'concerned' about having a female lead in Horizon: Zero Dawn, and how they brought in an external marketing group to basically confirm I'd having a female lead would tank the game's sales.

Sony was worried about a female protagonist in Killzone dev's new IP

Horizon Zero Dawn, the new game from the makers of Killzone, was the sort of title that had Shuhei Yoshida, head of Sony Computer Entertainment's head of world wide studios, nervous. It was, he...

www.polygon.com

Click to shrink...

If we're lucky, Horizon selling like 10m+ killed any concept of this notion going forwards.

 

[Alanood]

Remember the bullshit Microsoft pulled about a black female protagonist being on the cover of fable 3?

Click to shrink...

Well, that's a double-problem for them. Being a woman is one, and being black is another.

 

[Evolved1]

If we're lucky, Horizon selling like 10m+ killed any concept of this notion going forwards.

Click to shrink...

Hopefully.

 

[Nappuccino]

2K vetoed the Bioshosck Infinite cover with Elizabeth on it, fearing that she would turn off traditional FPS players.

Click to shrink...

Didn't Naughty Dog have the same trouble with The Last of Us?

 

[ClickyCal']

Nintendo marketed dkc3 primarily as kiddy kong's game....the game named Dixie Kong's double troube.

 

[Evolved1]

Didn't Naughty Dog have the same trouble with The Last of Us?

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Yeah but they fought for it and won.

 

[salromano]

Hellblade was intended to just be called Senua's sacrifice but Ninja Theory's publisher told them games with a woman's name in the title sell worse so they decided on the title Hellblade and had the original name as a subtitle.

Now, I don't know if that's factually backed or was just the publisher thinking it was but the only game I can think of with female names in the title is Zelda and they sell pretty well.

Click to shrink...

But Hellblade was published by Ninja Theory.

 

[LavaBadger]

Not justifying it but didn't Bioware share some analytics that said like 80% of Sheperds were male or some crazy number?

Click to shrink...

These are self fulfilling prophecies when it comes to the way many games are marketed. And anything that's the "default" option is going to outweigh the rest by a significant margin. I'd bet default model Shep also made up 80% of that 80% because a) it was the default choice for male Shep and b) they clearly put a lot more effort into that character model vs all the other generic models.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Oh yeah like what the fuck, Resident Evil 5 had Chris AND Sheva both displayed prominently on the cover and that was one of the best selling RE game ever.

What the fuck are they talking about can't have a woman on the cover.

Click to shrink...

Capcom is probably one of the better publishers when it comes to games starring women.
They were strong with those types of titles even back on the PS1.

 

[Vitamin_B_Complex]

If we're lucky, Horizon selling like 10m+ killed any concept of this notion going forwards.

Click to shrink...

Horizon is IMHO one the most important games of all time.

First it is a brand new IP in a sea of sequels, remaster and remakes. Then it is a game by a studio that did one thing and one thing only, a "Halo competitor" for years. Than it is a game with a strong female lead. Than it is a game full of representation of different people.

This is basically everything gaming publishers are scared of. And it still sold like crazy proving all that shit wrong.

When The Last of Us 2 releases and sells 20+ million copies. It will cement the fact that woman LGBT protagonists can still rake in millions and millions and dispell this stupid notion even further.

Call Sony what you want, but they are doing some things right. And I hope Senua 2 also sells a bajillion copies.

As someone who only plays women characters when given the choice, this gen has been a blast.

These are self fulfilling prophecies when it comes to the way many games are marketed. And anything that's the "default" option is going to outweigh the rest by a significant margin. I'd bet default model Shep also made up 80% of that 80% because a) it was the default choice for male Shep and b) they clearly put a lot more effort into that character model vs all the other generic models.

Click to shrink...

This is true. There is this funny thing with D&D 5e where most people who play a cleric pick a dwarf as their race and the reason behind that is easy. In the rulebook there is a drawing of the dwarf cleric on the claric character page.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

These are self fulfilling prophecies when it comes to the way many games are marketed. And anything that's the "default" option is going to outweigh the rest by a significant margin. I'd bet default model Shep also made up 80% of that 80% because a) it was the default choice for male Shep and b) they clearly put a lot more effort into that character model vs all the other generic models.

Click to shrink...

This is the reason I went with generic Shephard. I tried to create my own, but it looked too doofy. I'm not a character designer for a reason, haha.

But all else being equal, I try to play a variety of different characters when given the option. It just makes each game more novel instead of just always playing as a generic straight male WASP.

 

[NDA-Man]

If we're lucky, Horizon selling like 10m+ killed any concept of this notion going forwards.

Click to shrink...

If we're lucky.

But... Lara Croft was always a million-plus seller, with even the lowest-selling games in the series moving at least one million (The remake of the original, Anniversary). The original, on just the PS1 and Saturn, sold 7 million. The 2013 reboot sold 11 million.

EDIT:
Now that I mention it... there were a bunch of female protags in the 1990s. Lara, Capcom always had some, Fear Effect, Aya Brea. Even in the Early 2000s, you had Bloodrayne and a few others... but it really petered out in the PS3/360-era, to my knowledge. The Legend era is actually my favorite incarnation ofTomb Raider , but of those, Legend was the highest seller of the franchise since 1999, but sold only 4 mill (and it only outsold the disastrous Angel of Darkness and Chronicles). Anniversary was very low for the franchise, and Underworld was better, but still underperforming.

 

[Mentalist]

You could say that yes. You saved a guy, can't recall if there was a full blown romance between those two.

Click to shrink...

I loved that game, got 88% of achievements in it, and I do not, remember anything resembling a love interest. Nilin had a couple of supportive figures, and there was a guy who was her admirer, yeah. And then there was the other guy who

Spoiler

turns out to be the evil amalgamation of everyone's digitized negative thoughts and ends up being the final boss

, but I don't recall anyone who's make me think "love interest" .

Unless they mean the guy whose ship gets busted up when that pilot lady lands and trashes it.

 

[Yuntu]

Hellblade was intended to just be called Senua's sacrifice but Ninja Theory's publisher told them games with a woman's name in the title sell worse so they decided on the title Hellblade and had the original name as a subtitle.

Now, I don't know if that's factually backed or was just the publisher thinking it was but the only game I can think of with female names in the title is Zelda and they sell pretty well.

Click to shrink...

Isnt Hellblade self-published?

 

[Jobbs]

Hellblade was intended to just be called Senua's sacrifice but Ninja Theory's publisher told them games with a woman's name in the title sell worse so they decided on the title Hellblade and had the original name as a subtitle.

Now, I don't know if that's factually backed or was just the publisher thinking it was but the only game I can think of with female names in the title is Zelda and they sell pretty well.

Click to shrink...

This makes no sense. Ninja Theory self published this game, and made a big deal of that fact