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When up means down: why do so many video game players invert their controls?
- Thread starter oni-link
- Start date
Now I'm trying to remember what early 80s/90s games had y-invert as the default. And I'm thinking specifically of FPS games, not flight sim stuff.
Yes
Yes
I don't shoot rifles, but wouldn't the point of vertical rotation be at the shoulder, not your hand?
Are you currently scrolling this page down by pointing to the top or bottom of it? - is a simpler version of the same question. Mouse users are pointing downward, touch users pointing upward.
I invert y-axis and if the game won't allow me to, I'd stop playing it immediately. I'd also invert x-axis, but a majority of games still don't allow it.
Always invert
I grew up with it and got used to it. I can't go back. It feels wrong, I can't play on normal.
This also kinda feels like a "I'm old" topic. This was the normal once. So we are not weirdos for preferring inverted.
I grew up with it and got used to it. I can't go back. It feels wrong, I can't play on normal.
This also kinda feels like a "I'm old" topic. This was the normal once. So we are not weirdos for preferring inverted.
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But then if you wanted to aim down, both of your hands would be moving downward as they're both on the same side of the axis.
Fucked up if true.
So do this. That's literally what it is.
Do y'all also invert your cursor in Windows so that you have to move the mouse in the opposite direction of the icons you want to click?
Inverted controls used to be the norm. I remember when it changed it was a very hard adjustment. Now I struggle going back to games that are inverted and can't be changed.
For me, I have to assume it came from the ZX Spectrum/Commodore 16 era where you had a keyboard and a joystick and playing games like Chuck Yaeger. Also for me, I have rationalised it thus - there is no Z-Axis on a right analogue stick. Only X and Y. There is no UP. Only Forward, Backwards, Left and Right. You can't Push Up. You can apply pressure and push the stick down by moving your thumb forward = you look down in-game. I don't buy the immersion answer. It's a learned behaviour and our brains make sense of it for us. I cannot control a camera in-game if it is non-inverted. Just cannot fathom it.
I've heard inverters say they consider the camera to essentially be...a camera, like on a tripod. If you pull down, the camera looks up.
But I don't think they invert the X-axis, so I don't know that they actually think like that or just say that to try to make sense of their sacrilegious deviancy.
I think generally you start one way or the other, get used to it and keep on trucking.
Basically the good ol' "look up Master Chief", and then that's how you look up from then on.
Unless you had someone telling you to push a certain direction, it just seems instinctual to me.
You don't sit there mulling, contemplating, logicing and philosophizing the decision, you just move the stick in the direction you consider up to be.
If you want to switch, that seems easy to me, like you'll get used to it in an hour.
I think with a mouse it would mess me up forever though. Would have to switch in the OS as well.
Does anyone invert their mouse? ^^Yes.
But I don't think they invert the X-axis, so I don't know that they actually think like that or just say that to try to make sense of their sacrilegious deviancy.
I think generally you start one way or the other, get used to it and keep on trucking.
Basically the good ol' "look up Master Chief", and then that's how you look up from then on.
Unless you had someone telling you to push a certain direction, it just seems instinctual to me.
You don't sit there mulling, contemplating, logicing and philosophizing the decision, you just move the stick in the direction you consider up to be.
If you want to switch, that seems easy to me, like you'll get used to it in an hour.
I think with a mouse it would mess me up forever though. Would have to switch in the OS as well.
Does anyone invert their mouse? ^^Yes.
Neither. My brain flip-flops between the two, sometimes multiple times in the span of a few minutes. There is no setting for the y-axis that will remain ideal for me for an entire play session, I absolutely will fumble around constantly.
This is also true for the x-axis. Basically, fuck camera control.
This is also true for the x-axis. Basically, fuck camera control.
"Players who invert are 'acting on' the avatar, with the controls either behind or on top of the head controlling the avatar."
Completely disagree with this. Puts me inside as the rider. Anyway never thought of this, but what an interesting insight into people's view of consciousness. If only I could understand non-inverters maybe I could understand how they perceive their own consciousness....
I think my inverting the controls came from when I used to play FPS on PC. Inverting made me feel like I was controlling my characters head instead of just pointing a cursor on a screen. Gave me more immersion and then I just carried inverting to console without really thinking about it.
Completely disagree with this. Puts me inside as the rider. Anyway never thought of this, but what an interesting insight into people's view of consciousness. If only I could understand non-inverters maybe I could understand how they perceive their own consciousness....
I think my inverting the controls came from when I used to play FPS on PC. Inverting made me feel like I was controlling my characters head instead of just pointing a cursor on a screen. Gave me more immersion and then I just carried inverting to console without really thinking about it.
First games I played with Y axis camera controls were flight games, so always thought in that manner ever since. We're talking gaming 1979 or so, so no going back. Still make sense.
If I'm shooting a picture looking up, first instinct is to lean my body backward in space/ center of gravity...not to tilt the camera upward. You drop your body lower for an upward angle, not the camera. If you're shooting a IRL gun down from a sniper position I'd suggest you move your body to a higher position vs just moving the gun or you're gonna have someproblems.
Body dictates movement, not the camera or weapon
worst thing about this generation was when Xbox removed the permanent inversion tied to your gamer profile ala 360 era. That still mystifies me.
If I'm shooting a picture looking up, first instinct is to lean my body backward in space/ center of gravity...not to tilt the camera upward. You drop your body lower for an upward angle, not the camera. If you're shooting a IRL gun down from a sniper position I'd suggest you move your body to a higher position vs just moving the gun or you're gonna have someproblems.
Body dictates movement, not the camera or weapon
worst thing about this generation was when Xbox removed the permanent inversion tied to your gamer profile ala 360 era. That still mystifies me.
GoldenEye was the first FPS I ever played and it was inverted. I have been wired that way ever since.
Mostly inverted, but it can get weird sometimes.
FPS\3PS played with a dual-analogue controller: Inverted, because the right stick is your neck.
FPS\3PS played with a KB+M: Not inverted, because the controller/neck thing just doesn't work with a mouse.
Rail shooter like Starfox (any controller): Inverted, because you pitch forward to go down etc.
Rail shooter like Rez (any controller): Not inverted, because its just a cursor on a screen.
It all comes down to what my brain logically things pushing forward/up on a stick would do IRL. Why the same isnt true for left/right I'm not really sure, but it might be that... well, try this if you want.
Tilt your head back to look up. You can really feel the difference in your balance can't you?
Now, with your head level again, look left and right. Not much change in your sense of balance is there?
I think that's it. Looking up/down is just so much more pronounced as a movement because your entire sense of balance changes. Whereas side-to-side is more casual and you dont really 'feel' it. Maybe.
Also, I do remember it taking me quite a while to get used to dual-analogue controls back in the day. It took many hours and probably several games to finally settle on inverted Y and for it to become comfortable.
FPS\3PS played with a dual-analogue controller: Inverted, because the right stick is your neck.
FPS\3PS played with a KB+M: Not inverted, because the controller/neck thing just doesn't work with a mouse.
Rail shooter like Starfox (any controller): Inverted, because you pitch forward to go down etc.
Rail shooter like Rez (any controller): Not inverted, because its just a cursor on a screen.
It all comes down to what my brain logically things pushing forward/up on a stick would do IRL. Why the same isnt true for left/right I'm not really sure, but it might be that... well, try this if you want.
Tilt your head back to look up. You can really feel the difference in your balance can't you?
Now, with your head level again, look left and right. Not much change in your sense of balance is there?
I think that's it. Looking up/down is just so much more pronounced as a movement because your entire sense of balance changes. Whereas side-to-side is more casual and you dont really 'feel' it. Maybe.
Also, I do remember it taking me quite a while to get used to dual-analogue controls back in the day. It took many hours and probably several games to finally settle on inverted Y and for it to become comfortable.
This. My dad bought a PC and I played a lot of Descent and Flight Simulator, with a flight stick (my father was a Air Force pilot). So for so long pushing up was down and pushing down was up.
Thinking about it now, when I use my head to look up, I am physically bringing my head backward or down.
Anyway, I invert the Y.
It's bizarre, I used to think inverting the Y axis felt really strange and uncomfortable- then for some reason Mario Odyssey of all things came along, and there was something about that game's camera that felt really awful to me. So out of curiosity I tried it on inverted, and I haven't gone back since. Do it in all subsequent games and game types too, including FPSes. Why that game was the one to re-wire me I still have no idea.
I only invert when using Joy-Cons, and it has to be both X and Y.
Doesn't matter on the type of game, and I don't invert anywhere else. Even when using a normal dual-analog controller on the Switch I don't invert.
It's something to do with the way I use the back part of my thumb on the analog stick while keeping the pad of it on the buttons. No other weird justifications. It's the controller that does it.
Doesn't matter on the type of game, and I don't invert anywhere else. Even when using a normal dual-analog controller on the Switch I don't invert.
It's something to do with the way I use the back part of my thumb on the analog stick while keeping the pad of it on the buttons. No other weird justifications. It's the controller that does it.
It drives me insane that inverting X isn't an option on so many games.
First line is already wrong, imho.
I don't know anyone who inverts upwards MOVEMENT. It's exclusively for camera controls (be it in 3rd or 1st Person), i.e. LOOKING.
I grew up with playing First Person space sims with a joystick. You pull back to make the plane / cockpit look up.
And honestly, pushing the stick "up" is a misnomer. When holding a controller, the controller is held mostly horizontally.
So people are pushing the stick FORWARD to look up or they're tilting it BACK.
And when you, in real life, wanna look up, you tilt your head BACK.
That's about the gist of it: "stick UP to point nose / eyes UP or stick BACK to tilt head BACK"
Both control schemes are perfectly legitimate, and i have no issue with non-inverted being the default, but it really grinds my gears how people are unwilling to at least understand that many people legitimately consider inverted the much more 'natural' way of controlling.
Yep.
For FPS is it weird that I invert on console but play standard on pc with mouse?
edit: l2r clearly I'm not alone.
edit: l2r clearly I'm not alone.
Not true, I've been gaming since 1989 an I only accept inverted flying controls.
The last time we had this conversation on Era we came to some of the same conclusions. Older gamers tended to skew towards inverted, especially if they first tried to navigate a 3D space with games like X-Wing.
I am an inverter for any game where the camera is 1st person, either shooting or flying. 3rd person too, most of the time.
I am an inverter for any game where the camera is 1st person, either shooting or flying. 3rd person too, most of the time.
There are some 3rd person games with weird camera controls, like Zelda Twilight Princess and The Wind Waker where the Y axis isn't freely controlling the pitch the camera like it would in any other 3rd person shooter, but rather moves the camera closer to or further from your player character - like as if it's on a camera dolly.
In these games, i switch to non-inverted too, because it feels less like 'tilting' 'looking around' than moving the actual camera.
I think BotW was when they made the switch to regular ass 3rd person camera controls.
Oh did ocarina force us to use inverted y-axis for aiming? Well that explains how I got trained to invert, then.
I seen a great diagram for people who prefer inverted controls (I'm not one of those people) that explains how they associate it and now I can't find it
I've attempted to recreate it here using a head model I found on google
Or like this.
I wonder how the intersection is between "people who play non-inverted" and "people who do motion aiming", because with motion aiming, you always tilt the controller back to look up, right? Or is there inversion for motion aiming too?
Oddly enough, I invert if aiming with my left thumb in games like Panzer Dragoon, Starfox, and Sin & Punishment (N64 version). N64 games just drilled into my muscle memory ever since Mario 64 controlled flight that way. Heck pilot wings and Star fox on SNES controlled this way too with a dpad.
But when aiming with my right thumb in an FPS, or TPS, or controlling the camera with the right thumb - I won't invert. Halo on Xbox and Unreal Tournament on PC (with a mouse) sort of drilled that into my right arm's muscle memory.
So for me left= invert, right = don't invert.
Now with gyro aiming, right stick aiming feels even more natural even though it's the "opposite" of inverted controls in many ways.
The human brain is weird.
But when aiming with my right thumb in an FPS, or TPS, or controlling the camera with the right thumb - I won't invert. Halo on Xbox and Unreal Tournament on PC (with a mouse) sort of drilled that into my right arm's muscle memory.
So for me left= invert, right = don't invert.
Now with gyro aiming, right stick aiming feels even more natural even though it's the "opposite" of inverted controls in many ways.
The human brain is weird.
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That is pretty much it for me. That feels natural to me.Or like this.