When Luke Goes to Dagobah, he sees Darth Vader. When Ben Goes to Dagobah, he sees Luke. (And other things from the comics)

[Lunar Wolf]

Ren is a poser and probably wakes up in a cold sweat at the idea of not being as strong as Vader. ROS will probably bring this up considering that he rebuilt the mask.

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The Sequel films are weird in that they portray Darth Vader as if he can't be topped by almost anyone.

But Darth Vader lost so much of his potential that he's really only around Count Dooku's level in the OT.

I mean Ben should be far stronger than Darth Vader by now especially by how Luke talks about Ben.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh no! I stand corrected! She struggles for 5 seconds to get it off the ground the proceeded to do mindblowing shit after getting the hang of it!

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She nearly crashes multiple times and barely scraps by as she flies it:

and yes, struggling to get the ship off the ground is more believable than a sheltered farm boy flying a ship perfectly

There's really no use in continuing this convo there seems to be an explanation for everything so everything just boils down to "THE FORCE" so why can't "the force" be a valid excuse for how Luke was able to shoot the torpedo down the shoot even though it's literally said to the audience during that scene but you just pulled that force excuse out of your ass for Rey to excuse that utter BS

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Who said that Luke using the force to make the death star run isn't a valid excuse? People brought that up because if you're gonna critique Rey essentially not doing things the way Luke would, then you have to examine Luke and how his actions are framed. I.e. If Rey struggling to fly the falcon, a ship she's intimately familiar with despite never flying it is supposed to be worthy of critique then so is Luke's flying of the x-wing considering how perfect it is, a ship he's never been in before.

The Sequel films are weird in that they portray Darth Vader as if he can't be topped by almost anyone.

But Darth Vader lost so much of his potential that he's really only around Count Dooku's level in the OT.

I mean Ben should be far stronger than Darth Vader by now especially by how Luke talks about Ben.

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Vader lost his potential but he was definitely more powerful than Dooku. Also, Kylo's admiration is about the idea of Darth Vader and how powerful he was. And you're right, Ben should be more powerful, but his personal hangups and inner conflict hold him back to a severe degree. He doesn't have the resolve that Vader had at the same age. He only had it for a brief moment in TLJ and that all went away when Rey rejected his offer.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

Also on Rey's power level, she's just as strong as Force Jesus but for no reason. So it's just weird. It's like a human being born stronger than Hercules.

The movies aren't really interested in Rey training so they just speed everything up which is fine but they should do some off-screen training at least.

I mean it takes Rey a week to beat Kylo Ren twice, become just as good as him with a lightsaber, use a Jedi Mind Trick, use the Force to lift up rocks and pilot the Falcon like a pro.

It's a little boring when your protagonist is good at everything. Even Luke struggled in his training.

 

[El Bombastico]

and yes, struggling to get the ship off the ground is more believable than a sheltered farm boy flying a ship perfectly

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Luke already owned a ship (T-16 Skyhopper) for years before getting into an X-Wing. Remember, he used to fly around in it murdering Womprats like some redneck hillbilly?

 

[Deleted member 1589]

Luke already owned a ship (T-16 Skyhopper) for years before getting into an X-Wing. Remember, he used to fly around in it murdering Womprats like some redneck hillbilly?

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He really takes after his father.

 

[Fj0823]

Luke already owned a ship (T-16 Skyhopper) for years before getting into an X-Wing. Remember, he used to fly around in it murdering Womprats like some redneck hillbilly?

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And before anyone mistakes it for his speeder.

This is a T-16

My boy loved them,

 

[Crossing Eden]

Also on Rey's power level, she's just as strong as Force Jesus but for no reason.

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Who's space jesus? Also:

For all the things said about Rey's "power level," she literally couldn't do anything about Snoke and not for lack of trying.

I mean it takes Rey a week to beat Kylo Ren twice, become just as good as him with a lightsaber, use a Jedi Mind Trick, use the Force to lift up rocks and pilot the Falcon like a pro.

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When did she defeat him a second time and how is she just as good as him with a lightsaber considering he killed more guards than her.

Luke already owned a ship (T-16 Skyhopper) for years before getting into an X-Wing. Remember, he used to fly around in it murdering Womprats like some redneck hillbilly?

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Learning about one ship does not mean that you can fly a different one perfectly, in formation perfectly. Luke literally had a curfew lmao. Luke struggling with the x-wing, like Rey did with the falcon before the force flight or fight kicked in, would've been much more believable. But I suppose it goes to show how much a character like Rey has to justify her abilities from visual storytelling, backstory, show don't tell, etc. compared to......one line of exposition.

 

[Lifejumper]

I wonder why nobody complains about Poe "power level".

Yall see the shit he does in these movies right?

 

[Fj0823]

Imagine thinking "Well she couldn't easily defeat the final boss after a couple of weeks" is an argument against a character being a Gary Stu.

Kirito lost to Heathcliff. Still one of the biggest Gary Stu's in history

 

[El Bombastico]

I wonder why nobody complains about Poe "power level".

Yall see the shit he does in these movies right?

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Making "Yo Mama" jokes?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Imagine thinking "Well she couldn't easily defeat the final boss after a couple of weeks" is an argument against a character being a Gary Stu.

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Except she's not a mary sue, these films go out of their way to show Rey making mistakes. Just because she's confident and competent due to her upbringing doesn't make her a mary sue. In this instance, it's not even a case of "easily defeating," she literally couldn't do anything.

I wonder why nobody complains about Poe "power level".

Yall see the shit he does in these movies right?

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Male characters never need to justify their movesets, one line of exposition is a-ok. However, deliberately
-showing a character struggle with things she's not used to
-putting her in unwinnable situations
-writing multiple justifiable reasons for her victories
-showing instead of telling when it comes to her abilities

it's not enough. She's just a mary sue.👍 /s And people wonder why a character like Rey is needed in the first place. It's because y'all make very disingenuous arguments when it comes to characters like Rey. Because according to this conversation, we can apparently acknowledge Luke's background but not Rey's.

 

[kIdMuScLe]

Luke, who also managed to fly in perfect formation btw.

There is nothing in the film that infers that he was training with simulators to fly an x-wing, which the academy specifically wouldn't be teaching about since it's the ship of the enemy and they fly tie fighters. Hella yikes at some of the handwaving some people do to defend Luke when they're trying to say that Rey is the one who isn't

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You mean that same T16 ship that the rebels use to train their x-wing pilots? Plus Biggs tells the captain he's the best pilot in tattoine and don't forget that r2-d2 is kinda like a flight assistant since is not all manual control unlike the millennium falcon.

 

[Lifejumper]

Making "Yo Mama" jokes?

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Dat selective memory.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Luke struggling with the x-wing,

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He did? He got hit, lost his wingman, lost R2, nearly crashes on his first laser pass, and if not for Wedge would've gotten shot down by the first Tie that engages him.

 

[Stinkles]

This is brutal to watch.

 

[Fj0823]

Except she's not a mary sue, these films go out of their way to show Rey making mistakes. Just because she's confident and competent due to her upbringing doesn't make her a mary sue. In this instance, it's not even a case of "easily defeating," she literally couldn't do anything.


Male characters never need to justify their movesets, one line of exposition is a-ok. However, deliberately
-showing a character struggle with things she's not used to
-putting her in unwinnable situations
-writing multiple justifiable reasons for her victories
-showing instead of telling when it comes to her abilities

it's not enough. She's just a mary sue.👍 And people wonder why a character like Rey is needed in the first place. 😃

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You don't see anyone complaining about Ahsoka Tano 🤔

You know, the girl that can go toe to toe with Vader.

It's almost as if her development was rich to the point her powers are completely believable

 

[Lifejumper]

You don't see anyone complaining about Ahsoka Tano 🤔

You know, the girl that can go toe to toe with Vader.

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Oofff you must have missed the first years of tcw.

 

[Fj0823]

Oofff you must have missed the first years of tcw.

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People called her annoying, boring, forced, unfunny, etc. Never OP

Her development was aces. She does grow from being a bratty girl into one of SW's finest.

That's the magic of actually developing your character

 

[Crossing Eden]

You don't see anyone complaining about Ahsoka Tano

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Dude are you serious, one of the constant complaints about Ahsoka was that she was a mary sue. People who use the mary sue argument lob it at any character who happens to be a competent woman no matter how much a film shows her struggling or having flaws. Rian had the right take:

Never OP

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You absolutely missed the initial reaction to this fight:

That's the magic of actually developing your character

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Except Rey is absolutely a developed character, here's the thing, increasing her power level has nothing to do with her character arc. The ST actually gets what the force represents as it doesn't work like this:

 

[Uncle Squingis]

Yes, Luke definitely pilots the X-Wing with more skill than he should have at that point. However, we like Luke more and give him the benefit of the doubt not because he's a male, but because he's more of an underdog.

We've seen him need rescuing all throughout the movie. The successes he has are far outweighed by his failures. First he gets saved by Obiwan in the desert, then he gets saved again by Obiwan again in the bar, then he gets saved by Han who has the idea to hide under the floorboards, then Leia rescues them from being blasted in the hallway, then R2 rescues him from the trash compactor, then Han, Luke, and Chewy work together to fight off the TIEs (but Leia explains that the escape was meant to be easy anyway), he gets saved by Wedge in his X-Wing, then Han saves his ass yet again in the trench. He doesn't make the winning shot all by himself, he has guidance from Obiwan.

In TFA, Rey is the opposite, where her failures are few and more often than not, she's saving herself and others, sometimes even marvelling at her own ingenuity. The only time she doesn't save her own skin is at the end when Finn defends her against Ren. That's the difference.

 

[Fj0823]

Dude are you serious, one of the constant complaints about Ahsoka was that she was a mary sue. People who use the mary sue argument lob it at any character who happens to be a competent woman. Rian had the right take:

You absolutely missed the initial reaction to this fight:

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Oh yeah that bit where she just pops out new powers and defeats grievous sure was problematic. Sorry, but whoever called Ahsoka a Mary Sue was wrong. Ahsoka uses her wits an ingenuity to outmaneuver Grievous. And Ahsoka is constantly presented to fall short several times, and not just only against the final boss. If the sentiment was present, then it sure wasn't widespread as much as complaints about her characterization, which I feel have some merit early on.

Whereas with Rey there are legitimate complaints to be raised to the way the character is written, presented and developed.

Not that you care to discuss, you are oh so sure about how right you are.

There are problems with the way Rey is written, and there's also sexist BS, both can be true.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

You don't see anyone complaining about Ahsoka Tano 🤔

You know, the girl that can go toe to toe with Vader.

It's almost as if her development was rich to the point her powers are completely believable

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People called her annoying, boring, forced, unfunny, etc. Never OP

Her development was aces. She does grow from being a bratty girl into one of SW's finest.

That's the magic of actually developing your character

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Yeah, Ahsoke Tano is aces.

That's how you develop a character.

Hell, I would've been okay if Ahsoka was around as strong as Darth Vader.

Unlike Anakin, Darth Vader isn't a demi-god.

Who's space jesus? Also:

For all the things said about Rey's "power level," she literally couldn't do anything about Snoke and not for lack of trying.



When did she defeat him a second time and how is she just as good as him with a lightsaber considering he killed more guards than her.

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Anakin Skywalker.

On the second, she was Ben's equal when it came to the Force and he killed like maybe one more guard than him. They're still around as good as each other and Ben has had years of training whereas Rey has had no Jedi training whatsoever. She's just good for weak reasons.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh yeah that bit where she just pops out new powers and defeats grievous sure was problematic. Sorry, but whoever called Ahsoka a Mary Sue was wrong. Ahsoka uses her wits an ingenuity to outmaneuver Grievous. And Ahsoka is constantly presented to fall short several times, and not just only against the final boss.

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Rey barely survived the fight against the praetorian guards and her upbringing is constantly shown to affect how she reacts to situations. Rey wasn't just incapable of beating Snoke, she was incapable of beating Kylo if he was fully focused like Vader would be, something clearly telegraphed in the throne room fight. She never just whips out a new power either. Outside of the fight or flight, something that we know happens to force sensitives when they're in danger,

Everything she does with the force is something that's directly shown to her first by Kylo, as she puts it,
-making things float
-mind control

These films justify the hell out of Rey's abilities way more than they need to considering Luke who literally whips powers out of his ass, from somehow finding out about force choke to grabbing the lightsaber with the force.

Anakin Skywalker.

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She's nowhere near as strong as Anakin.

On the second, she was Ben's equal when it came to the Force and he killed like maybe one more guard than him

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He spent the entire fight fighting multiple guards as the same time while she spent the majority of it stuck on one dude.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

Damn, I can't believe it only took one page to talk power levels, lol

 

[NuclearDistortion]

These threads are part of the reason why I no longer like SW and I've been a fan since as long as I can remember - like I saw Jedi when I was 6. I remember the theater.

The level of bullshit that comes from Star Wars "fans" like what's being fully displayed in this thread genuinely makes me feel embarrassed to say that I'm a fan or ever have been.

Its amazing how serious people take things that don't matter - and then spread it all over the place like it's the most important thing in the world when it literally means shit. And the extremely sad part of all this is that it makes people angry - really angry.

Angry over something that shouldn't ever make someone angry. The same thing happened with Thrones.

It's a sad world we live in when people take personal offense to things that shouldn't EVER matter in life....especially when that thing is entertainment based.

The culture of negativity that this world has developed is sad.

 

[The Silver]

For me the reason Rey became strong so quickly was answered by Snoke. She's the light side equivalent to Ren and once she finally awakened to the force it power leveled her to be on his level to achieve balance. He flat out said he warned Ren it would happen as he grew stronger. She's a different kind of force chosen one. Anakin was meant to balance the force entirely and destroy the Sith, Rey meant to keep the great darkness of Ren in balance.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Damn, I can't believe it only took one page to talk power levels, lol

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Because people don't understand how the force works.....this is apparently how some SW fans see the force:

People don't seem to realize what Luke's training in ESB was actually about. It wasn't about his power level. It was about getting him to believe in himself.Rey by pure coincidence is the embodiment of what Yoda was trying to teach Luke:

this is how Luke reacts:

this is Rey:

and thus the part where Rey doesn't believe in herself is thus portrayed in a way entirely unrelated to her understanding of the force. As she's constantly tries to pass on the responsibility to someone she believes deserves it more than she does. After all, she's nobody.

 

[kIdMuScLe]

For me the reason Rey became strong so quickly was answered by Snoke. She's the light side equivalent to Ren and once she finally awakened to the force it power leveled her to be on his level to achieve balance. He flat out said he warned Ren it would happen as he grew stronger. She's a different kind of force chosen one. Anakin was meant to balance the force entirely and destroy the Sith, Rey meant to keep the great darkness of Ren in balance.

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lol if going by the rumors that shit went out the window.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

Because people don't understand how the force works.....this is apparently how some SW fans see the force:

People don't seem to realize what Luke's training in ESB was actually about. It wasn't about his power level. It was about getting him to believe in himself.Rey by pure coincidence is the embodiment of what Yoda was trying to teach Luke:

this is how Luke reacts:

this is Rey:

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Blame George Lucas then because it's about midichlorians and that hasn't been retconned yet.

Rey's midichlorian count must be on par with Anakin Skywalker's for it to make sense.

And Anakin's the strongest Force user ever as well as based on demi-gods according to Lucas.

Like Luke's growth chart is only as good as it is because he is Anakin's son and even his growth pales in comparison to Rey's growth.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Blame George Lucas then because it's about midichlorians and that hasn't been retconned yet.

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Both films go out of their way to reestablish not just the mysticism of the force but also what it represents. Arguably due to the clone wars, rebels, and new films framing of the force, it inadvertently says that the jedi wildly misunderstood the true nature of the force.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

Both films go out of their way to reestablish not just the mysticism of the force but also what it represents.

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Yes but midichlorians are still a thing in Star Wars as of now and your potential in the Force is determined by them.

That's why I'm saying that Rey's potential being equal to Anakin is just unreal. At least with Luke and Ben, you can pretty much just say it's hereditary.

With Rey, she just is that good without a good reason for it.

Like I've said before, it's like a regular human being born as strong as Hercules.

It's grating and quite boring. Make her work for her powers like Luke did. Don't just give them to her. It's not compelling at all.

 

[Disco]

Thats cool and all but im not into having to read a comic book or book to get important character beats outside of a movie so hopefully some of this is alluded to in the final film

 

[Lifejumper]

This should have been in the kylo ren d+ series tho

 

[Deleted member 11039]

"Guys there's no such thing as force power levels. Also Rey totally isn't on Snoke's level."

Out of all the silly stuff that gets thrown around in these threads that dumb video game meme has to be one of the worst. It's utterly meaningless. 'Powerful jedis' are a thing. Jedi classrooms are a thing. Training yourself to break down mental hurdles is a thing. It's a ridiculous semantics argument.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Yes but midichlorians are still a thing in Star Wars as of now and your potential in the Force is determined by them.

That's why I'm saying that Rey's potential being equal to Anakin is just unreal. At least with Luke and Ben, you can pretty much just say it's hereditary.

With Rey, she just is that good without a good reason for it.

Like I've said before, it's like a regular human being born as strong as Hercules.

It's grating and quite boring. Make her work for her powers like Luke did. Don't just give them to her. It's not compelling at all.

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You guys legitimately make me embarrassed to be a Star Wars fan, and your gatekeeping/schooling of people regarding how these films should be written makes y'all come across as delusional. These posts are the equivalent of you straining not to say "I don't like Rey because she has boobs."

And all this talk of "she hasn't earned it" is the stupidest twaddle. That's not how the force works.

 

[Keldroc]

Oh no! I stand corrected! She struggles for 5 seconds to get it off the ground the proceeded to do mindblowing shit after getting the hang of it!

There's really no use in continuing this convo there seems to be an explanation for everything so everything just boils down to "THE FORCE" so why can't "the force" be a valid excuse for how Luke was able to shoot the torpedo down the shoot even though it's literally said to the audience during that scene but you just pulled that force excuse out of your ass for Rey to excuse that utter BS

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What the fuck are you even fucking babbling about? The Force is the valid excuse for how Luke shot the torpedo down the exhaust port, just as it is the valid excuse for Rey's rapidly awakening (gee where's that word used in the new movies? oh right the fucking TITLE) abilities. Which, again, are called out specifically by Snoke in TLJ as the natural counterbalance to Kylo Ren's, a concept taken from the backstory of why Anakin was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

Rey haters got nothin', every damn time. Luke is ten times worse in terms of random power boosts for the sake of the plot.

You mean that same T16 ship that the rebels use to train their x-wing pilots? Plus Biggs tells the captain he's the best pilot in tattoine and don't forget that r2-d2 is kinda like a flight assistant since is not all manual control unlike the millennium falcon.

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Try again, that Biggs line wasn't even in the movie until 20 years after it was released. You know why? Because while editing it Lucas and his wife correctly decided that it was completely unnecessary. You know, because Luke isn't a girl stories didn't need every little stupid thing explained to a nitpicky nerd audience back then.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

You guys legitimately make me embarrassed to be a Star Wars fan, and your gatekeeping/schooling of people regarding how these films should be written makes y'all come across as delusional. These posts are the equivalent of you straining not to say "I don't like Rey because she has boobs."

And all this talk of "she hasn't earned it" is the stupidest twaddle. That's not how the force works.

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Has it occurred to you that you're talking to a woman? Are you accusing me of being a misogynist just because I don't agree with Rey's growth when it comes to her powers?

You're arguing in bad faith. It's basic monolithic thinking.

Anyways, the Jedi Order literally trained to people from childhood to use the Force as well as lightsaber combat.

Most people aren't typically just amazing at it.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

Rey haters got nothin', every damn time. Luke is ten times worse in terms of random power boosts for the sake of the plot.

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Like what?

 

[matrix-cat]

At the risk of getting into this goddamn bullshit again, Rey spends basically the entirety of TFA and TLJ learning how the Force works, visibly, in wonderfully executed scenes, and people are so married to the Mary Sue nonsense that nobody credits it. Like character development doesn't count unless it comes in the form of a montage of an old guy/muppet running through a lesson plan.

I mean, take the mind trick/psychic battle scene in The Force Awakens. A solid minute of Rey and Kylo eye-fucking eachother to a soundtrack of whooshy mind noises. It actually takes the time to show Rey learning an aspect of Jedi-ing that Luke simply learnt off-screen between movies, and it's the best scene in the entire movie. It simultaneously shows the actual logistics of it, explaining visually and aurally how, to a Force-user, that mind manipulation is a tangible force that can be resisted and pushed back against, while also teaching us vital things about both Kylo and Rey. Kylo's never faced anyone who might be his equal, and he doesn't have the mental fortitude to deal with losing. Rey's greatest fear is that knowledge lurking deep down in her mind that she doesn't want to face, that gives her that reflexive "Get out of my head!" reaction, and that is her greatest obstacle to being her best self until she finally makes some progress in TLJ. It's brilliant. 10/10.

I've been so happy with the way the new movies have reframed Force usage as a battle with the user's own mind, not simply a series of techniques to be taught and basically leveled up in the most unromantic, video-game-mechanic sense. I don't want to see Rey repeating the same training scenes as Luke did, because her path to Force usage shouldn't be the same as his. Rey doesn't see a bad guy when she goes into her spirit journey Dark Side cave; Rey sees Rey. I want to see her struggling with her own flavour of inner demons and learning in her own way, and so far I think they've done a wonderful job of showing it.

"She flew the Falcon too well tho". Boring. Get some new material. The "She beat Kylo" -> "Kylo was all fucked up" -> "Yeah but still" argument isn't going to have a different ending the 10,000th time it's played out. Rey rips it up in the Falcon because that moment is symbolic of her waking up from a miserable existence, beginning to find herself. Rey beats Kylo because she's filled with purpose in that moment, while Kylo is trying to force himself to be someone he isn't. This is Star Wars; it's about being true of purpose, confident in your convictions, basically having your shit together. The more you try and nail the Force down to a mundane character sheet where this level of Force guy is only allowed to do these things, and they must acquire this much Force experience to advance to the next level, the worse it gets.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

At the risk of getting into this goddamn bullshit again, Rey spends basically the entirety of TFA and TLJ learning how the Force works, visibly, in wonderfully executed scenes, and people are so married to the Mary Sue nonsense that nobody credits it. Like character development doesn't count unless it comes in the form of a montage of an old guy/muppet running through a lesson plan.

I mean, take the mind trick/psychic battle scene in The Force Awakens. A solid minute of Rey and Kylo eye-fucking eachother to a soundtrack of whooshy mind noises. It actually takes the time to show Rey learning an aspect of Jedi-ing that Luke simply learnt off-screen between movies, and it's the best scene in the entire movie. It simultaneously shows the actual logistics of it, explaining visually and aurally how, to a Force-user, that mind manipulation is a tangible force that can be resisted and pushed back against, while also teaching us vital things about both Kylo and Rey. Kylo's never faced anyone who might be his equal, and he doesn't have the mental fortitude to deal with losing. Rey's greatest fear is that knowledge lurking deep down in her mind that she doesn't want to face, that gives her that reflexive "Get out of my head!" reaction, and that is her greatest obstacle to being her best self until she finally makes some progress in TLJ. It's brilliant. 10/10.

I've been so happy with the way the new movies have reframed Force usage as a battle with the user's own mind, not simply a series of techniques to be taught and basically leveled up in the most unromantic, video-game-mechanic sense. I don't want to see Rey repeating the same training scenes as Luke did, because her path to Force usage shouldn't be the same as his. Rey doesn't see a bad guy when she goes into her spirit journey Dark Side cave; Rey sees Rey. I want to see her struggling with her own flavour of inner demons and learning in her own way, and so far I think they've done a wonderful job of showing it.

"She flew the Falcon too well tho". Boring. Get some new material. The "She beat Kylo" -> "Kylo was all fucked up" -> "Yeah but still" argument isn't going to have a different ending the 10,000th time it's played out. Rey rips it up in the Falcon because that moment is symbolic of her waking up from a miserable existence, beginning to find herself. Rey beats Kylo because she's filled with purpose in that moment, while Kylo is trying to force himself to be someone he isn't. This is Star Wars; it's about being true of purpose, confident in your convictions, basically having your shit together. The more you try and nail the Force down to a mundane character sheet where this level of Force guy is only allowed to do these things, and they must acquire this much Force experience to advance to the next level, the worse it gets.

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It's not an issue of character development just of of her natural progression and how it contradicts the way things have been done not only in the PT and OT but also its expanded universe. I wouldn't say it's lore-breaking but it does give it a big old dent.

It's also not really compelling. Yoda and Luke training with each other was far more interesting than "Rey eye-fucking Ben" to learn how to use the Force.

Preferably, Rey would've developed a student-teacher bond with Luke and we could've seen how Luke differed from Yoda in what he taught Rey.

 

[matrix-cat]

It's not an issue of character development just of of her natural progression and how it contradicts the way things have been done not only in the PT and OT but also its expanded universe. I wouldn't say it's lore-breaking but it does give it a big old dent.

It's also not really compelling. Yoda and Luke training with each other was far more interesting than "Rey eye-fucking Ben" to learn how to use the Force.

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I don't think Rey's progression is so radically different to what we've seen with other Jedi as to contradict anything. I mean, Luke had his training montage, but it wasn't the handstand pushups that made him a better Jedi. He did all that physical training and then still went and lost to Darth Vader because he hadn't learnt his lesson that Jedi-ing is about the mental side of things. He could do a sick flip over a log, but he failed his challenge in the cave, he didn't believe he could lift the X-Wing, he threw "I can't"s and "It's impossible"s at Yoda all day long and it all led to him getting his shit chopped up. I mean the Rocky montage certainly helped him cut through Jabba's retinue, but it's only in the Emperor's throneroom when he wins his own internal struggle with himself, overcomes his own temptation to the Dark Side, throws down his lightsabre that he reaches his final form.

Rey is already pretty buff and knows how to handle herself in a fight when the movies begin, so she doesn't need the same physical training Luke did. She can skip straight to the main course of overcoming inner demons and growing as a person, and you see that in all of her scenes with Kylo. From the delicious eye-fucking (#Reylo), to their fights and physical struggles, to their Skype convos in TLJ where they're just two kids trying to work through their problems, each trying to bring the other around to their viewpoint and neither succeeding, it's all such good, meaty stuff. It portrays Rey as a young woman generally on the right path but unconsciously holding herself back, and Kylo a young man desperately trying to force himself down the wrong path. Rey certainly gets some handy tips from Luke along the way, but at the end of the day she and Kylo come as a package and their character growth is always going to be through eachother.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I love the portrayal of the Force as a window into a character's mental state rather than a psychic muscle that you train, and I've really enjoyed seeing Rey learning 'on the job' in the new movies. I've found Rey's journey to be a wonderful change from Luke's, to the point where he just straight up isn't the right teacher for her in TLJ. It's a whole new facet of Star Wars storytelling to explore; no retcons or contradictions, just different characters going through different struggles.

 

[show me your skeleton]

remember when this thread was about kylo ren comics

 

[Lifejumper]

remember when this thread was about kylo ren comics

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Its going to get worse the closer we get to tros.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

I don't think Rey's progression is so radically different to what we've seen with other Jedi as to contradict anything. I mean, Luke had his training montage, but it wasn't the handstand pushups that made him a better Jedi. He did all that physical training and then still went and lost to Darth Vader because he hadn't learnt his lesson that Jedi-ing is about the mental side of things. He could do a sick flip over a log, but he failed his challenge in the cave, he didn't believe he could lift the X-Wing, he threw "I can't"s and "It's impossible"s at Yoda all day long and it all led to him getting his shit chopped up. I mean the Rocky montage certainly helped him cut through Jabba's retinue, but it's only in the Emperor's throneroom when he wins his own internal struggle with himself, overcomes his own temptation to the Dark Side, throws down his lightsabre that he reaches his final form.

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I probably wouldn't care as much if I wasn't invested in the EU aspects of Star Wars. Rey being this good without training is extremely unusual. Unlike with Luke or Anakin or Ahsoka Tano, no one taught Rey how to use the Force. She just learns it because of some cheat code that the movie gives her. The movies aren't interested in training Rey which is disappointing because student-teacher bonds are one of the best things about Star Wars.

Her powers were handed to her on a silver platter and I don't find that compelling when I'm supposed to see the evolution of a protagonist from scavenger to Jedi Knight.

Rey is already pretty buff and knows how to handle herself in a fight when the movies begin, so she doesn't need the same physical training Luke did.

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The premise already loses me. I'm not going to believe that Rey growing up as a scavenger is the equivalent to the rigorous training of a Jedi Knight.

She can skip straight to the main course of overcoming inner demons and growing as a person, and you see that in all of her scenes with Kylo. From the delicious eye-fucking (#Reylo), to their fights and physical struggles, to their Skype convos in TLJ where they're just two kids trying to work through their problems, each trying to bring the other around to their viewpoint and neither succeeding, it's all such good, meaty stuff. It portrays Rey as a young woman generally on the right path but unconsciously holding herself back, and Kylo a young man desperately trying to force himself down the wrong path. Rey certainly gets some handy tips from Luke along the way, but at the end of the day she and Kylo come as a package and their character growth is always going to be through eachother.

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I wish people would stop refering to Kylo Ren as a kid. He's a 30 year old man. Rey is an actual teenager.

 

[Deleted member 1627]

I don't think Rey's progression is so radically different to what we've seen with other Jedi as to contradict anything. I mean, Luke had his training montage, but it wasn't the handstand pushups that made him a better Jedi. He did all that physical training and then still went and lost to Darth Vader because he hadn't learnt his lesson that Jedi-ing is about the mental side of things. He could do a sick flip over a log, but he failed his challenge in the cave, he didn't believe he could lift the X-Wing, he threw "I can't"s and "It's impossible"s at Yoda all day long and it all led to him getting his shit chopped up. I mean the Rocky montage certainly helped him cut through Jabba's retinue, but it's only in the Emperor's throneroom when he wins his own internal struggle with himself, overcomes his own temptation to the Dark Side, throws down his lightsabre that he reaches his final form.

Rey is already pretty buff and knows how to handle herself in a fight when the movies begin, so she doesn't need the same physical training Luke did. She can skip straight to the main course of overcoming inner demons and growing as a person, and you see that in all of her scenes with Kylo. From the delicious eye-fucking (#Reylo), to their fights and physical struggles, to their Skype convos in TLJ where they're just two kids trying to work through their problems, each trying to bring the other around to their viewpoint and neither succeeding, it's all such good, meaty stuff. It portrays Rey as a young woman generally on the right path but unconsciously holding herself back, and Kylo a young man desperately trying to force himself down the wrong path. Rey certainly gets some handy tips from Luke along the way, but at the end of the day she and Kylo come as a package and their character growth is always going to be through eachother.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I love the portrayal of the Force as a window into a character's mental state rather than a psychic muscle that you train, and I've really enjoyed seeing Rey learning 'on the job' in the new movies. I've found Rey's journey to be a wonderful change from Luke's, to the point where he just straight up isn't the right teacher for her in TLJ. It's a whole new facet of Star Wars storytelling to explore; no retcons or contradictions, just different characters going through different struggles.

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These are good posts and should be copy/pasted into every thread where these discussions come up.

10/10 would read again.

 

[Zulith]

I want a lot more out of Ben's backstory than scenes of him and Snoke on Dagobah rehashing what happened in ESB. Nothing could possibly be more contrived. They really weren't exaggerating when they said fans wouldn't be satisfied with this comic story.

They've had 4 or 5 years to come up with some good stories for Ben's earlier years and this is what we get.

I do blame the story team for allowing stuff this lazily executed to get through the filter. A big chunk of the Marvel SW comics feel like rehashed movie stuff and it's what really bugs me the most about it.

 

[Gundam]

I feel like I should know better than to expect Star Wars threads to be anything but a mess. How did we get from neat Kylo Ren comics to the "Rey is a Mary Sue" discourse from 4 years ago

 

[Sleepingdragon]

Are the Kylo Ren comics as good as the Vader ones? Since those were pretty good.

 

[Lunar Wolf]

Are the Kylo Ren comics as good as the Vader ones? Since those were pretty good.

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Same writer so I expect them to be.

I feel like I should know better than to expect Star Wars threads to be anything but a mess. How did we get from neat Kylo Ren comics to the "Rey is a Mary Sue" discourse from 4 years ago

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To be fair, I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue as of TLJ just unjustifiably overpowered to the point that it makes her less compelling as a character.

 

[Mivey]

Also on Rey's power level, she's just as strong as Force Jesus but for no reason. So it's just weird. It's like a human being born stronger than Hercules.

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The movies make it clear that her strength in the force is a natural outcome to the dark side becoming stronger again, essentially making her like Anakin.

The only weird thing seems to be fans having trouble accepting that you can be Force Jesus, without needing a dick too.