When exactly did the Irish, Italians and Ashkenazi Jews became accepted as "White" in America?

[CrunchyB]

This post highlights the widespread and naive understanding of whiteness (and race generally) as reified categories, rather than cultural constructions.

Relevant reading:

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Thank you. This constant referring to race and pseudoscientific terms like "caucasian" never fails to piss me off. It's just melanine in your skin, stop trying to give it more meaning than that.

 

[Dabanton]

When they needed a buffer from 'uppity' blacks.

 

[TaySan]

Well if it helps op I'm Irish from Ireland and would never call myself white.

Even if the Americans I know insist (agressively) that I am.

I'm not white, I'm Irish.

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As someone of Irish/Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry it's a tough question for me.
Like I'm Blonde haired, blue eyed and pale as hell. But a white supremacist would never call me one of their own.

 

[LosDaddie]

Sadly, I know a few dark skinned Hispanics who are hardcore Trumpers and spout all the usual alt-right bullshit. It just baffles me to no end...

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There will always be few of them. Always.

Hispanics/Latinos are a very diverse group. Very far from a monolith. White liberals like to clump us together because we share a language.

 

[sapien85]

Once members of other races became a noticeably large percentage of American society probably. We're experiencing the expansion of whiteness to Latinos now. I know Latino is not a race but more Latinos are considered white now than any time previously.

Edit: It's a way to make sure white remains a majority probably. Wonder how they'll expand the definition in the future.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

"We'll let you become white as long as you shit on the blacks".

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Yeah this is the story of the Civil Rights Act. Sure, it offered some protections to Black Americans, but its biggest effect on America was redefining whiteness so that Poles, Irish, Italians, etc. were now politically indistinguishable from WASPs despite a number of otherwise significant differences like that whole catholicism thing.

Meanwhile neo-nazis are on the visible rise and Britain seems to be eager to violate the good friday agreement, so all this shit is always built on conditions.

 

[Pantaghana]

Benjamin Franklins essay Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries, etc. Is a fascinating read today.

And since Detachments of English from Britain, sent to America, will have their Places at Home so soon supply'd and increase so largely here; why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements and, by herding together, establish their Language and Manners, to the Exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs any more than they can acquire our Complexion?​

24. Which leads me to add one Remark, that the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny; Asia chiefly tawny; America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians, and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who, with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we, in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? Why increase the Sons of Africa, by planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.​

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Calling the Spanish, Italian, French Russians and Swedes non-white today gets you laughed at.
When did they become white?
When it was politically necessary.

 

[The Adder]

Gonna point this out again:

They were always considered white, just a lesser quality of white. They were never barred from marrying other white people by anti-miscegenation laws, unlike people considered to not be white.

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This isn't to say they weren't subject to racist discrimination But it was racist discrimination within a white racist hierarchy.

 

[Deleted member 4552]

Gonna point this out again:

This isn't to say they weren't subject to racist discrimination But it was racist discrimination within a white racist hierarchy.

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Irish people were subhuman for a very long time.

Under the penal laws the Irish weren't allowed to marry Protestants. (Among many other things)

Beyond that, subjugation of the Irish predates the concept of Protestantism, when both Ireland and England were Catholic.

 

[Richiek]

The fact that thay are in fact, white?

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Not necessarily. Alot of people in Southeastern Europe in the Mediterranean have Middle Eastern and North African ancestry in their blood.

 

[Dyle]

It was a gradual process from around the 1920s-1950s and occurred mainly because the poor immigrants that people hated and viewed as low hanging fruit stopped coming from Europe and were replaced with more poor immigrants from Asia, South America, and Africa.

 

[Deleted member 36708]

"We'll let you become white as long as you shit on the blacks".

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This!

 

[Mulciber]

The fact that thay are in fact, white?

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That's not how it worked back then at all.

This is Benjamin Franklin talking about Germans

"[T]he Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted.

Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion."

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They said the French, Germans, Russians, and Swedes were "swarthy" not "white" for crying out loud.

Whiteness has always been a bizarre club.

 

[Deepwater]

Housing segregation and redlining.
After WW2 you could come back and move into the "white" suburbs because it was still racially codified law at several levels of government and even if you were Irish/Italian/Greek/Slavic, you were still "white" by that time period

From Historian Thomas Guglielmo's White on Arrival: Italians, Race, Color, and Power in Chicago, 1890-1945

- "Most important, then, for all of its discursive messiness, the race/color distinction was crystal clear when it came to resources and rewards. In other words, while Italians suffered greatly for their putative racial undesirability as Italians, South Italians, and so forth, they still benefited in countless ways from their privileged color status as whites." (9) - differentiation between race and color largely ended by WWII, and instead Italisn became an ethnic/nationality group instead of a racial one
- Historiography: Challenges whiteness studies by arguing that Italians did not necessarily come to US as "in-between" people who had to assert their whiteness - this misreading comes from a conflation of race and color. Italians may have been discriminated against racially as Latins or Alpines, but their status as white was never really in question. Especially in comparison to Mexican-Americans, whose whiteness was ACTUALLY under question, and blacks/Asians (whose whiteness was totally OUT of the question).
- In some sense, a story of stasis and privilege. "Italians' whiteness - conferred more powerfully by the federal government than by any other institution – was their single most powerful asset in the 'New World'; it gave them countless advantages over 'nonwhites' in housing, jobs, schools, politics, and virtually every other meaningful area of life." (12)

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[TaySan]

The Irish went HAM on Black people as free Blacks started increasing labor competition. There were race riots up north with 50+ dead. I'm sure the WASPs were impressed and said the Irishman was a goodman and welcomed him to the flock.

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I read about the many riots and it's honestly sad how people will treat others if they feel they can get ahead. Just shameful and ironic.

 

[julian]

Housing segregation and redlining.
After WW2 you could come back and move into the "white" suburbs because it was still racially codified law at several levels of government and even if you were Irish/Italian/Greek/Slavic, you were still "white" by that time period

From Historian Thomas Guglielmo's White on Arrival: Italians, Race, Color, and Power in Chicago, 1890-1945

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I'll point out that this is not including Jews who were also not allowed to buy homes in a lot of places in America until the Civil Rights Act nullified racist/anti Semitic clauses in deeds. Really weird to see people lumping in Jews when we know white supremacists literally marched chanting "Jews will not replace us" fairly recently, but oh well.

 

[Deepwater]

I'll point out that this is not including Jews who were also not allowed to buy homes in a lot of places in America until the Civil Rights Act nullified racist/anti Semitic clauses in deeds. Really weird to see people lumping in Jews when we know white supremacists literally marched chanting "Jews will not replace us" fairly recently, but oh well.

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White Jews benefit from whiteness in several ways that should be pretty obvious, even if they don't get the whole package and are discriminated against on other axes.

Furthermore, white nationalism/supremacy treats Jews differently across the spectrum. Just because you have the tiki torches, very-online Steve Bannon types on one hand, doesn't mean you don't have the wide swath of conservative-yet-not-extremist WASPs that will let Jews cozy up under "whiteness" for a variety of different reasons.

 

[TaySan]

I'll point out that this is not including Jews who were also not allowed to buy homes in a lot of places in America until the Civil Rights Act nullified racist/anti Semitic clauses in deeds. Really weird to see people lumping in Jews when we know white supremacists literally marched chanting "Jews will not replace us" fairly recently, but oh well.

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Maybe Ashkenazi should have an asterisk attached to it. The average white person would still consider me white, but a white supremacists would never call me one of their own. 🤷

 

[skillzilla81]

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/abolishing-whiteness-urgent-191117153149028.html

Article popped up in my feed:

The majority of Jews embraced whiteness as it became more readily available to them from the 1960s onwards, believing it offered unprecedented protection against any possible resurgent anti-Semitism. Ignatiev, however, saw the solution to Jews' problems, and those of the US at large, in abolishing it.

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Ignatiev's historical argument to abolish whiteness was developed most fully in his 1995 book How the Irish Became White.

Since the English colonisation of Ireland, the Irish had been considered less than fully human. But Irish immigrants to the US were accepted as white in the era before the civil war as many supported slavery and violence against (free) black people. It was a transformation that enabled them to achieve better jobs at higher wages and be accepted as full citizens in what was still a juridically white republic.

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Perhaps most importantly, Ignatiev helps us understand that "the white race is a club, which enrolls certain people at birth, without their consent, and brings them up according to its rules". "For the most part the members go through life accepting the benefits of membership, without thinking about the costs. When individuals question the rules, the officers are quick to remind them of all they owe to the club, and warn them of the dangers they will face if they leave it."

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[Deleted member 17210]

It's not surprising that Irish people would be accepted relatively early on in places like the US and Canada. If you're born in those countries and speak with the same accent as English people, it would be hard to tell the two apart in many cases. Some people look very Irish but there's a lot of overlap in facial features with English and Scottish.

 

[Deleted member 19218]

Since when is apparent skin color the only determinant of whiteness?

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Well the Irish in general weren't black. You wouldn't say they that or that they were Asian.

 

[julian]

White Jews benefit from whiteness in several ways that should be pretty obvious, even if they don't get the whole package and are discriminated against on other axes.

Furthermore, white nationalism/supremacy treats Jews differently across the spectrum. Just because you have the tiki torches, very-online Steve Bannon types on one hand, doesn't mean you don't have the wide swath of conservative-yet-not-extremist WASPs that will let Jews cozy up under "whiteness" for a variety of different reasons.

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In no way was I suggesting that Jews don't benefit from whiteness. But having experienced antisemitism and having heard many instances of it when people think Jews aren't around (my wife is Jewish but does not look it), and having had people on this and the old forum try and tell me that antisemitism isn't a real concern, I get a little defensive when people try suggesting that we are all in the same category cause the color of our skin.

 

[J2C]

What is this thread?

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Its actually not crazy. I took an ethnicities in America class in college, and we discussed a lot of when certain ethnic groups assimilated or were accepted as "white" in America. Pretty interesting history. Though I'll say Ashkenazai Jews still face a lot of racism

 

[antonz]

There was scientific belief in some circles until as late as 1899 that held the Irish were essentially pale skinned Negroes.
American History and its treatment of specific groups of people and when they achieved "whiteness" is a really interesting study.

 

[Brinbe]

civil rights movement, 1000%. wasps found a familiar enemy to punch down upon

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Well if it helps op I'm Irish from Ireland and would never call myself white.

Even if the Americans I know insist (agressively) that I am.

I'm not white, I'm Irish.

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In the present day this is honestly the most absurd thing I've seen in quite some time.

 

[TiC]

The Irish and the Italian should not be lumped in with the Jews, they have mostly been accumulated into whiteness. The Jews are still othered by nearly all white supremacists.

 

[Z-Beat]

When people with darker skin started showing up more often. Turned into "You may be different but those guys over there are REALLY different."

Granted Jewish people have been and currently still are dumped on. I think they've had the longest running bout of that out of anyone.

 

[Kevers]

I'm Irish, German, and French Canadian. I couldn't get any whiter if I tried.

 

[TaySan]

I mostly added Ashkenazi based on personal experience. Almost every white person I ever met considered me white, but I know a white supremacist wouldn't consider me white if they ever found out. So idk there's a big gap of acceptance between Ashkenazi and Irish/Italian.

 

[Deleted member 4552]

In the present day this is honestly the most absurd thing I've seen in quite some time.

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That's coz your a Brit.

 

[RPGam3r]

As someone of Irish/Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry it's a tough question for me.
Like I'm Blonde haired, blue eyed and pale as hell. But a white supremacist would never call me one of their own.

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As a white dude of various origins I don't know why the f you would care if a white supremacist would call you one of their own.

 

[julian]

I mostly added Ashkenazi based on personal experience. Almost every white person I ever met considered me white, but I know a white supremacist wouldn't consider me white if they ever found out. So idk there's a big gap of acceptance between Ashkenazi and Irish/Italian.

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You derailed your own thread! Let's get 'em!!!

 

[TaySan]

As a white dude of various origins I don't know why the f you would care if a white supremacist would call you one of their own.

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I don't care I'm just saying not everyone would consider me white.

You derailed your own thread! Let's get 'em!!!

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🤷🤷 idk why everyone is so hostile about this.

 

[RPGam3r]

I don't care I'm just saying not everyone would consider me white.

🤷🤷

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I don't care what white supremacist think of anything, let alone there bullshit views on who is white enough to be white.

 

[Deleted member 29660]

Not that long ago, I'm talking like the last twenty to thirty years ago.

You see movies and TV shows from the 80's that touch on these themes quite often. If you grew up in the 80's you probably can list examples. Of a different religion? Can't marry them. Oh it's an Irish Man? He's a drunk that probably slaps his wife. Such things were kinda the norm thought train in the 80's though it was starting to fade.

People like to think such things were gone much earlier than they were but they lingered and stayed engrained into the minds of many. We still see some symptons of it today. It's no wonder that fear mongering towards other religions and people picked up. Easy to scapegoat those that are unknown compared to the rest that became the norm over time.

 

[Sean C.]

As a white dude of various origins I don't know why the f you would care if a white supremacist would call you one of their own.

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It is a relevant factor if you're discussing whiteness on a societal level. Jewish people do occupy a somewhat unusual place, in that in most respects they enjoy white privilege, but it's also undeniably true that white supremacists generally don't consider them white and there is a very extreme history of victimization by said white supremacists.

 

[Deleted member 43]

As a white dude of various origins I don't know why the f you would care if a white supremacist would call you one of their own.

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Considering the massive success white supremacists have had killing Jews, it's not a bad idea to remain conscience of their thoughts on the matter.

 

[Buzzman]

The fact that thay are in fact, white?

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An Italian emigrates to the U.S and becomes "white".
A Spaniard emigrates to Mexico and becomes "Latino".

These are utterly absurd and arbitrary rules.

Not to mention the fact that racism towards hispanics doesn't even make sense on a cultural or genetic level, considering they're all european descendants,
Sometimes from the exact same fucking regions as U.S americans.

If we can have such rabid hatred and prejudiced ideas against people depending on whether their emigrating ancestors lived a dozen kilometres north or south of the Pyrenees, I'm pretty sure we can make up hatred against fucking anything.

 

[mugurumakensei]

During 1800's/Early 1900's European immigrants were treated like dirt and seen as "savage' Anything less than Anglo Saxon/Nordic was not considered "White". What exactly triggered that change?

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meh, go to Breitbart and you'll see there still are some who don't view those as white. For the most part, they became white in 1965 though.

 

[RPGam3r]

Considering the massive success white supremacists have had killing Jews, it's not a bad idea to remain conscience of their thoughts on the matter.

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I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about their shitty thoughts, I'm saying I wouldn't value their opinion on where they would put me in their f'd spectrum.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

That's coz your a Brit.

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You can't differentiate between ethnicity and nationality so engaging with you and explaining how every fucking person in the British Isles is mixed and why that applies to me specifically is a total waste of time.

Instead I'll say this so it is clear: To be Irish and for you to consider yourself not white is absolutely fucking stupid. Thinking that you're not, or for others in the past to consider you not that, is simply an act to differentiate yourself from your neighbours due to ideological, political, or nationalistic reasons.

There is more of a shared genetic heritage between myself and a multi-generational Irishman than there is between myself and someone from East Europe, who are also white as fuck. Sorry it offends you so to think that.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

When they needed more white people to outnumber black/latinos. Latinos will be next to suddenly be "white" when it suits.

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^^^^^

 

[Akira86]

That's not how it worked back then at all.

This is Benjamin Franklin talking about Germans

They said the French, Germans, Russians, and Swedes were "swarthy" not "white" for crying out loud.

Whiteness has always been a bizarre club.

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lol Ben Franklin always on some shit

 

[deadman322]

im pretty sure most of the hostility was due to sectarianism.

 

[Deleted member 4552]

You can't differentiate between ethnicity and nationality so engaging with you and explaining how every fucking person in the British Isles is mixed and why that applies to me specifically is a total waste of time.

Instead I'll say this so it is clear: To be Irish and for you to consider yourself not white is absolutely fucking stupid. Thinking that you're not, or for others in the past to consider you not that, is simply an act to differentiate yourself from your neighbours due to ideological, political, or nationalistic reasons.

There is more of a shared genetic heritage between myself and a multi-generational Irishman than there is between myself and someone from East Europe, who are also white as fuck. Sorry it offends you so to think that.

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The great thing about being Irish is you don't get to define me, that ship has sailed.

By the way, we don't use that term. It's a culture thing, you wouldn't understand.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

The great thing about being Irish is you don't get to define me, that ship has sailed.

By the way, we don't use that term. It's a culture thing, you wouldn't understand.

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"It's a culture thing" so it has nothing to do with actually being white. You're just a bigoted individual trying to differentiate yourself due to ideological, political, and nationalistic reasons. You assume things due to your own innate hatred and won't bend that to accommodate reality.

Your opinion is so ignorant that it offends me. Doubly so when the concept of sharing anything with a Brit so disgusts you that you can't possibly bring yourself to admit reality.

I put your beliefs in the same category as flat earthers, aka "fucking dumb". Good luck living in your own weird ignorant bubble.

 

[Mulciber]

lol Ben Franklin always on some shit

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Imagine saying Germans, the French, and Swedes couldn't acquire white American's complexion.

Like did eyes work differently in the 1800s? Was there some kind of virus that rewrote eye DNA? What is happening!?

 

[Advance.Wars.Sgt.]

Whiteness is merely a juxtapositon to blackness of any capacity Every non-black ethnicity therefore can and will be absorbed into a branch of whiteness as a means to uphold that distinction.

 

[davepoobond]

june 4, 1978 @ 2:14 AM