When Did Level Scaling Become a Tolerated Mechanic by Many in the Gaming Community?

[Poltergust]

Xenoblade Chronicles gave me so many memorable moments precisely because a lot of enemies in the early areas of the game are at a much higher level than you.

In the Gaur Plains alone, I remember:

Spoiler: Enemy encounters

-A giant titan-like enemy just strolling around the main open area. I think this guy was like level 80.
-Getting chased by a giant spider after picking up a quest item, who would absolutely one-shot me if it caught up.
-Walking very slowly through the spider cave to not aggro the spider enemies within that would swarm my party.

Xenoblade Chronicles actually has a really neat system when it comes to enemies where there a different conditions to get them to even attack you. Some will attack on sight, some will only attack you if you make noise (usually by running), some are docile until you attack them or their friends first, etc. It all comes together so well, and it makes you feel like you're just a small part of a much bigger world (that is trying to kill you).

To have the enemies scale around your own level completely breaks that illusion apart, because there is no in-universe reason for a random wolf you fought in the beginning of the game to be keeping up with you in terms of power.

 

[Teh_Lurv]

Is it simply an older man yelling at people that grew up on Oblivion and Skyrim(yes that is slightly backhanded), and maybe think differently about gameplay loops, or am I missing something??

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I loved how in games like Morrowind there were areas that would just wreck you, but if you were really smart and snuck around, you could get some sweet, high level, loot. It felt like an actual accomplishment.

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Morrowind also had level scaling.

Level scaling is a necessary component for open world sandbox RPGs, so I don't understand why people would buy such a game then immediately hate on the core concept. A big part of the replayability for Morrowind, Oblvion, & Skyrim for me was I could start a game with a fresh character and immediately start adventuring in a section of the world or start an expansion adventure I skipped during a prior play-through. A game world where sections or quests are locked behind a minimum level requirement only harms the sandbox nature of the game.

The complaints and "solutions" I've heard people give about Oblivion & Skyrim over the years makes me think there are people that grew up with and are locked into an MMO/JPRG mindset of how RPG mechanics should work.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Yeah if I'm an amateur boxer who puts in tons of work to go pro, I should easily be able to beat opponents who are still at the amateur level once I turn pro.

 

[Suicide King]

Morrowind also had level scaling.

Level scaling is a necessary component for open world sandbox RPGs, so I don't understand why people would buy such a game then immediately hate on the core concept. A big part of the replayability for Morrowind, Oblvion, & Skyrim for me was I could start a game with a fresh character and immediately start adventuring in a section of the world or start an expansion adventure I skipped during a prior play-through. A game world where sections or quests are locked behind a minimum level requirement only harms the sandbox nature of the game.

The complaints and "solutions" I've heard people give about Oblivion & Skyrim over the years makes me think there are people that grew up with and are locked into an MMO/JPRG mindset of how RPG mechanics should work.

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But it's not as if those are the things that made Morrowind good to begin with. I honestly believe Elder Scrolls games would be much richer if you had a decent combat that didn't require level scaling to even remotely work.

In Dark Souls, you can actually create a new character and go to an area where the enemies are, in theory, much stronger, and actually have a decent time with it. Heck, I remember starting the game, taking off all the armor and running to the catacombs. Thanks to how the combat is designed, the enemies are stronger in terms of raw stats, but they can still be fought in a smart way.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

I've hated it every since Final Fantasy VIII. I loved going back to the Midgar Zolum in FF7 and wrecking it. It's so disappointing going back to earlier levels in FF8 and finding stronger enemies there.

 

[Thera]

Level scaling => Awful design
Making ennemy HP sponge when increasing difficulty or simply progress throught the game => Awful design (hello Death Stranding)

 

[kvetcha]

Yup, it's awful. See Diablo 3 Greater Rifts. Like, what is the point?

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In D3 the point is trying to rank on the leaderboards.

 

[Kneefoil]

People pro level scaling don't seem to realize that they are replacing "mindless" quick repetitive battles with long boring repetitive battles... because let's be honest, after you get the game mechanics down you aren't still being challenged.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... If you want to make a game with level scaling, you can save yourself a lot of pain and trouble by just not making a leveling system at all.

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If battles become repetitive or too long or boring, that's more of an issue with the game's combat or enemy design; not something inherent to level scaling.

I agree more with the second half of you post, although I don't think that's exclusive to scaled level systems either. Developers nowadays like to shoehorn in leveling systems in an attempt to give the player a feeling of progression, but in reality, in a lot of cases, if these systems were removed, nothing of any real value would be lost. It often just feels like busywork to go to a skill tree to unlock "+2% to attack."

 

[Adamska]

It's kind of amusing that people are all up in arms about level scaling. It seems like a good way to always have every enemy capable of putting up a fight, so I see nothing wrong with it.

 

[Inugami]

It's kind of amusing that people are all up in arms about level scaling. It seems like a good way to always have every enemy capable of putting up a fight, so I see nothing wrong with it.

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Again, then why have leveling at all? If level progression means literally nothing, then it's just wasted developer time... especially since if you get scaling wrong, you can end up with balance issues that you wouldn't have normally otherwise.

Literally the main game that everyone keeps bringing up (ACO) is part of a series that was doing just fine without leveling and thus, no level scaling. The cynical (correct) part of me just thinks that Ubisoft is adding it to all of it's open world games to artificially pad the game, and hook people who are addicted to seeing numbers that jump up so they can sell them XP boosts that effectively do nothing since everything scales regardless.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Level scaling can be annoying, but it's not any dumber than difficulty based on geography.

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Yeah, they are BOTH poor solutions, in fact.

It's kind of amusing that people are all up in arms about level scaling. It seems like a good way to always have every enemy capable of putting up a fight, so I see nothing wrong with it.

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Well, people are "up in arms" precisely because it isn't.

 

[KDR_11k]

It definitely makes me wonder why the game even has levels. If you don't want me to have an advantage over enemies, why do my numbers go up? Just give me a skill point and keep the numbers fixed if the point is that you only get horizontal growth.

I vastly prefer fixed stats for enemies so the same enemy doesn't suddenly take more or less damage based on an arbitrary number next to its name. Sure, boost 'em in new game plus or something but don't make level 80 rats that are the same as level 1 rats except they have bigger numbers. That just breaks the consistency of the world. I want something to do all that upgrading and leveling towards, threats that I need these levels to defeat. I want a boss to have a certain strength that I'm trying to reach or surpass.

IMO stuff like Terraria does that feel of progression right despite having no leveling, you can frequently reach threats that are out of your league so you know why you want that better gear. It's not "I want to hit level 100", it's "I need gear to survive in the dungeon" or "this boss kicked my ass, let's see what I can do to improve my odds"

 

[Skulldead]

From every game i have play with level scaling, none of them is able to keep a steady challenge level like so much mention here. They all still became too easy or totally unbalance. There absoluty no point to have any level scaling on a RPG.

 

[Maple]

It's kind of amusing that people are all up in arms about level scaling. It seems like a good way to always have every enemy capable of putting up a fight, so I see nothing wrong with it.

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That's the point. If every enemy can just put up a fight as your character grows stronger, what's the point? Why have levels? Why have gear with better stats? Why have items or character stats at all? If enemy level and ability is normalized around the character's power, then all character growth and acquisitions in the game become trivial.

 

[Nax]

I guess this thread went the opposite of what OP expected. Seems like the majority here actually despise level scaling haha

 

[Inugami]

So I've done complaining about level scaling, but let me turn this around with how I think you can do it positively (not sure if any games have done this or not yet, if so I'd love examples!).

In a big open world game, you're expected to be able to do things out of order so my suggestion is thus: Lock the scaling to areas when you first visit them (plus some high level road blocks for super important areas, still accessible but more likely to kill you)

The Player decides to quickly finish the starting zone, escaping it at level 5, he can go to A B C or D. D is marked as an end game zone, so the enemies there start at level 20 and max at level 25 no matter what. A B and C however don't have set levels till the player steps into them.They go to area A, and all of the enemies start at 6 and scale to 10. Half way through A, they decide they don't like the zone so go to zone B at level 7. Zone B will now scale from level 7 to 15 (maintaining each new zone adding 5 to the max level, while not locking out the zone to people who get bored of A)


The Player finishes up B and C and ends up level 20, but still needs to finish A... Area A is still locked to max level 10, so now the player can go back and clear it quickly and be ready to move on to area D.

Another player could do the same thing, only shuffling the order (B C A or C A B, etc) and they'd still get the same leveling experience, just in different zones while still giving them options.


This offers true progression, true open world freedom, and also allows people to breeze through content or zones they don't like by being able to grind out of them.

(TLDR: Besides areas that have a level minimum, have areas that have a level maximum and make it based on when you visit them, with earlier areas you visit having lower max level caps)

 

[Snake Eater]

Level Scaling is just lazy, I won't touch games that have it

 

[thisismadness]

Personally, I hate overleveling more than level scaling so, for the most part, I'm ok with it. I'd be perfectly happy if games just started to ditch levels entirely and found better ways to convey a character growth.

 

[-COOLIO-]

It's bullshit. If I want to overlevel and break the game, I should be able to.

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yup. often times breaking the game in this way is just good fun.

 

[PowerThroughLov]

I just skip games with level-scaled enemies these days. I just cannot do it. I don't enjoy seeing the world level up with me, I enjoy seeing myself level up within the world.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

(TLDR: Besides areas that have a level minimum, have areas that have a level maximum and make it based on when you visit them, with earlier areas you visit having lower max level caps)

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I seem to remember Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning doing something like this?

 

[Son of Sparda]

Level scaling is trash.

I felt like I barely did any progression in ACOD thanks to this bs.

Also, level gating quest XP is some weird ass bs that hurt my overall enjoyment of Witcher 3. I don't care if I'm over leveled, just give me the fucking XP that the quest was supposed to give me normally. The fact this shit was glitched and hurt even quests that you should've gotten normal XP from them, made it even worse.

 

[Adamska]

That's the point. If every enemy can just put up a fight as your character grows stronger, what's the point? Why have levels? Why have gear with better stats? Why have items or character stats at all? If enemy level and ability is normalized around the character's power, then all character growth and acquisitions in the game become trivial.

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Why would you necessarily want enemy encounters to be trivial? I don't really mind when it happens, but it's definitely a bigger test of skill when old enemies manage to use their tactics without simply being wiped out in an instant. Look no further than NG+ on Soulsborne titles for a great example of how useful level (or stat) scaling is.

 

[L4DANathan]

It's because they want to make a game with no real difficulty curve, but want that positive feedback loop of leveling up. Come to think of it, it might be the originator of the general trend of game structure altering to maintain audience interation, which they then monetize.

 

[Deleted member 25888]

In D3 the point is trying to rank on the leaderboards.

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Fair point. I hadn't considered that aspect.

 

[ghibli99]

Yeah, not a fan of it in Odyssey. I tolerate it, but it basically makes leveling pointless outside of getting ability points (and by the time you get to the DLC, it's a moot point since the game then starts giving them out like candy... I have like 40+ extra now that I have yet to allocate to masteries, etc.). It also layers on top of it the need to upgrade gear to your current level, etc., which is just an excuse for collecting resources, dismantling, etc. System upon system of unnecessary bloat and time wastage. I feel OP most of the time on Normal, but there have been several DLC encounters where I've desynced due to sloppy play, missed dodges/parries, etc., so that's been refreshing in a way vs. how I steamrolled through the latter half of my base game playthrough.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

Hell yes

This is exactly how it should be. This big motherfucker running around reaches you right off the bat that you need to be mindful or where you're going. Can't just run around wherever cause there might be someone who can one shot you around the corner

Maybe my favorite moment of XB2 was coming right after this big bitch after I beat the game and putting him in his grave.

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Yep, all the Xenoblade games are great at this. (Funny how they all have a level 81 giant red territorial ape in the starting plains area to fuck you up.)

 

[-Tetsuo-]

when was it ever not tolerated? It has been in lot of extremely popular games since it became common

 

[Gotdatmoney]

If the only thing that actually matters is the base stats, what purpose does adding on to them with a leveling system serve?

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If the game uses levels to handle progression of abilities for example.

Any game like this would be better off without a stat boosting level system at all.

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Why on earth would that ever be universally true?

 

[monapon]

What game is this

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That screenshot is from Xenoblade 2 but Xenoblade 1 and X also have 10-ton Lv 81 gorillas with fancy names that appear from nowhere and start playing electric guitar right in the first open area of the games. It's a series tradition by now, so much that they lampshaded it in 2's DLC.

 

[GlitchyDegree]

So I've done complaining about level scaling, but let me turn this around with how I think you can do it positively (not sure if any games have done this or not yet, if so I'd love examples!).

In a big open world game, you're expected to be able to do things out of order so my suggestion is thus: Lock the scaling to areas when you first visit them (plus some high level road blocks for super important areas, still accessible but more likely to kill you)

The Player decides to quickly finish the starting zone, escaping it at level 5, he can go to A B C or D. D is marked as an end game zone, so the enemies there start at level 20 and max at level 25 no matter what. A B and C however don't have set levels till the player steps into them.They go to area A, and all of the enemies start at 6 and scale to 10. Half way through A, they decide they don't like the zone so go to zone B at level 7. Zone B will now scale from level 7 to 15 (maintaining each new zone adding 5 to the max level, while not locking out the zone to people who get bored of A)


The Player finishes up B and C and ends up level 20, but still needs to finish A... Area A is still locked to max level 10, so now the player can go back and clear it quickly and be ready to move on to area D.

Another player could do the same thing, only shuffling the order (B C A or C A B, etc) and they'd still get the same leveling experience, just in different zones while still giving them options.


This offers true progression, true open world freedom, and also allows people to breeze through content or zones they don't like by being able to grind out of them.

(TLDR: Besides areas that have a level minimum, have areas that have a level maximum and make it based on when you visit them, with earlier areas you visit having lower max level caps)

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It's been a while since I last played it but I think this is how Kingdoms of Amalur handeled level scailing.

 

[MP!]

To me it's terrible and should be pilloried in almost all it's forms until it is expunged from the gaming developer toolbox.

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AB SO LUTE LY
one of the reasons FF8 sucks is less... err.. desirable

 

[Lork]

The reason is that levelling up is fun. People like it - I like it.

Tbh, I dislike level scaling too. But I'm ok with AC's version of it - enemies are always 2 levels behind. Enough to make it easier if you want to play that way, but not so much that you become a walking god like in skyrim.

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Levelling up is fun... in games that don't invalidate it with level scaling.

If the game uses levels to handle progression of abilities for example.

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Once again, the progression of abilities does not need to be accompanied by exponentially blooming stat bonuses. It could be accompanied by reasonable stat bonuses that don't break the game so much that they require a separate system to invalidate them, or even no stat bonuses at all!

One theme I've noticed among the defenders is the conflation of the bonuses awarded for leveling up with the idea of a leveling system itself. Of course a level 50 character is 5000x stronger in every way than a level 10 character, that's just what a leveling system is, right? Wrong. The only thing necessary for a leveling system to exist is the abstract concept of a number that increases. Every other aspect is optional at the discretion of the game designers.

Why on earth would that ever be universally true?

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But it is universally, provably true.

The explicit purpose of a level scaling system is to invalidate or mitigate the effect of stat bonuses for leveling up. Therefore, any argument in favor of level scaling is necessarily an argument that those stat bonuses are not valuable. If they actually were valuable it would be a bad thing to invalidate them, no?

For any given game, if it's true that it would be improved by level scaling, it would be equally or even more improved by removing or lessening the stat bonuses that necessitated it in the first place.

 

[ClivePwned]

I totally agree with OP.

The level scaling made me really hate parts of Assassins Creed Odyssey. It just felt like a way to try and sell be buffs and boost. fuck that. How about I just don't buy the next game, Ubi?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Once again, the progression of abilities does not need to be accompanied by exponentially blooming stat bonuses.

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That's not what the point was. You said, why would you need it. I gave an example of a situation it makes sense. The fact you don't like that is irrelevant. Like honestly who cares that you don't like it? I don't.

It could be accompanied by reasonable stat bonuses that don't break the game so much that they require a separate system to invalidate them, or even no stat bonuses at all!

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Who says that the stat bonuses break the game? Again, you?

One theme I've noticed among the defenders is the conflation of the bonuses awarded for leveling up with the idea of a leveling system itself. Of course a level 50 character is 5000x stronger in every way than a level 10 character, that's just what a leveling system is, right? Wrong. The only thing necessary for a leveling system to exist is the abstract concept of a number that increases. Every other aspect is optional at the discretion of the game designers.

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So why exactly are you claiming that a high level character being stronger is bad? The fact that you don't enjoy big numbers means nothing. There is nothing inherently wrong with it if the game is balanced around it.

But it is universally, provably true.

The explicit purpose of a level scaling system is to invalidate or mitigate the effect of stat bonuses for leveling up.

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This again, is your opinion. A level scaling system doesn't need to exist with the goal reducing the effect of stat bonuses through leveling up. In many games leveling up isn't the only way to increase your stats. Level scaling for example, can exist to make sure that players cannot brute force their way through scenarios without sufficient setups.They do this by setting up a scale the player needs to operate at or above to successfully move through encounters. A level scaling system can give enemies new abilities at higher levels without doing much to scale their damage, defense and health multipliers.

Therefore, any argument in favor of level scaling is necessarily an argument that those stat bonuses are not valuable. If they actually were valuable it would be a bad thing to invalidate them, no?

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Have you designed anything in your life? Serious question. This is not how problem solving and iteration work.

For any given game, if it's true that it would be improved by level scaling, it would be equally or even more improved by removing or lessening the stat bonuses that necessitated it in the first place.

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No and you need to stop saying this shit. This is game design driven and all the other aspects of how your game systems work need to be taken into consideration. Scaling enemies to your level is not inherently bad. A game has to take into considerations what it's goals are and then implement mechanics that fit those goals. Like some people need to accept not every mechanic has their desires in mind and that's fine.

 

[thonerayman]

I HATE level scaling. So much so, I actually posted a lot of information about it on the Remnant From the Ashes reddit that I got to talk to one of the devs one on one on the topic. They didn't change it of course, but he did listen to my thoughts on the matter. I still hate it and unless I really really wanna play something I avoid games that have it (Like the aforementioned Remnant that I played for 1 day then dropped it once I found out about the level scaling)

 

[pillowtalk]

Some devs are dumb. If they want to sidegrade, then sidegrade. Don't lie to me about being max level and still allow me to die to rats.

 

[xir]

do we have an earliest example?
i know the bosses in Lunar did it...

 

[Taker34]

Level scaling has its purpose depending on the game type. For open world games it can be quite brilliant because otherwise the player will may run into many progression dead ends. You can ensure a relatively consistent experience, which is important because gating parts of the map behind higher levels makes the premise of an open world sort of pointless. The same goes for gear and weapon scaling. Finding an overleveled weapon is like toggling the difficulty scaler in a way. I don't see why level scaling is inherently bad. It isn't when it's being properly used in tandem with other gameplay features.

It's funny that people bring up Skyrim and Oblivion when Morrowind also scales the amount and type/lvl enemies you encounter while traveling and in dungeons. High level players will encounter absurd amounts of high lvl enemies at all times and to me it always felt like fighting against glorified cliff racers left and right.

 

[Timewarp]

I find curb-stomping enemies boring so I kinda prefer it. I feel Blizzard found a good answer via Rifts. You could choose the difficulty you want in that moment. You could farm without paying attention to the screen (much), or really push your build by challenging much higher lvl Rifts.

 

[Ananke]

It should always be optional, but most of the time I'll enable levels scaling up to me because the moment I'm mindlessly dispensing of enemies with no danger at all I'll almost certainly drop a game.

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I concur. I always like a sense of danger in my games. I don't want to be a walking god, that 1 shots everything. It's a cool feeling and accomplishment when it initially happens but any prolonged play after that makes the game feel hollow. It's funny to kill a swarm or enemies the moment encounter music comes on only to fade back out a second later.​

 

[Kinsei]

For open world games it can be quite brilliant because otherwise the player will may run into many progression dead ends.

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The proper solution to that is to either offer alternative methods of completion that don't involve combat (dualogue, stealth, etc), or to have the combat be skill based enough that someone could theoretically kill a level 99 enemy at level 1 if they were good enough.

 

[Taker34]

The proper solution to that is to either offer alternative methods of completion that don't involve combat (dualogue, stealth, etc), or to have the combat be skill based enough that someone could theoretically kill a level 99 enemy at level 1 if they were good enough.

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Aka "why is not everyone From Software?" :)

 

[Ocean Bones]

I think there's a sweet spot in between, where most enemy's have a set level and skill set, can still be dangerous for several levels later. But with random encounters and story characters changing a bit with you.

 

[Lork]

That's not what the point was. You said, why would you need it. I gave an example of a situation it makes sense. The fact you don't like that is irrelevant. Like honestly who cares that you don't like it? I don't.

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I asked what purpose adding bonuses on to base stats serves if those bonuses are (by your own admission) retroactively cancelled out by an additional system. This was of course a rhetorical question, because how could something that was cancelled out serve a purpose? Bringing additional abilities into the discussion is a non sequitur because they aren't an example of an unqualified stat bonus... unless you have the concepts conflated for some reason.

Whether or not I like it is irrelevant in this case. These aren't subjective arguments.

Who says that the stat bonuses break the game? Again, you?

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The game designers who thought it was enough of a problem to need an additional system to fix it are the ones who made that determination, as well as the people who think that system is necessary or a good thing. I'm just following that logic to its natural conclusion for the sake of argument.

So why exactly are you claiming that a high level character being stronger is bad? The fact that you don't enjoy big numbers means nothing. There is nothing inherently wrong with it if the game is balanced around it.

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I said no such thing. In my opinion, a power differential between an enemy and the player can be good and fun so long as it's handled with care. That's not really relevant to the statement you're replying to though. Stat bonuses, abilities, access to content and so on are all separate things that can be added, tweaked, or removed at the developer's discretion regardless of what anybody thinks of them.

This again, is your opinion. A level scaling system doesn't need to exist with the goal reducing the effect of stat bonuses through leveling up. In many games leveling up isn't the only way to increase your stats. Level scaling for example, can exist to make sure that players cannot brute force their way through scenarios without sufficient setups.They do this by setting up a scale the player needs to operate at or above to successfully move through encounters. A level scaling system can give enemies new abilities at higher levels without doing much to scale their damage, defense and health multipliers.

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Regardless of the implementation details, the purpose of the dynamic level scaling systems we're talking about in this thread is to normalize the power level of enemies around that of the player. This is not my opinion any more than "The purpose of a clock is to tell the time" is.

Have you designed anything in your life? Serious question. This is not how problem solving and iteration work.

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Why don't we stick to addressing each other's arguments instead of stooping to baseless ad hominem attacks? It's more entertaining and productive that way.

No and you need to stop saying this shit. This is game design driven and all the other aspects of how your game systems work need to be taken into consideration. Scaling enemies to your level is not inherently bad. A game has to take into considerations what it's goals are and then implement mechanics that fit those goals. Like some people need to accept not every mechanic has their desires in mind and that's fine.

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Just saying "there are considerations" doesn't really hold water. What are these considerations? Why hasn't anyone come up with an example where constraining stat growth wouldn't be a viable alternative to multiplying the numbers and then dividing them afterwards, if you're so sure it's possible?

 

[Mage_of_Cinder]

I've read several posts like this, and I still don't understand why level scaling is considered bad thing around here. It keeps a games' combat challenging and engaging throught the playthrough.
Do you want to plow through enemies? Do you dislike challenge? Does leveling up feel like an illusion?

 

[Lork]

It's funny that people bring up Skyrim and Oblivion when Morrowind also scales the amount and type/lvl enemies you encounter while traveling and in dungeons. High level players will encounter absurd amounts of high lvl enemies at all times and to me it always felt like fighting against glorified cliff racers left and right.

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Conflating the use of level scaling by Morrowind with that of Oblivion and Skyrim is extremely disingenuous. Every single NPC, and a good number of the monsters in the world are hand placed with fixed stats. The random monster spawns that are scaled are based on tiers, so in a cave that would spawn a scamp at level 1, you might get a fire atronach instead at level 10, but (if I remember right) it was still possible to get a scamp sometimes anyway. All monsters of a given type had fixed stats.

By implementing the system in as limited and tightly controlled a manner as they did, they greatly reduced the potential damage it could do to the game. It's not at all hypocritical or a "gotcha" for people who dislike level scaling to say they like Morrowind.

This is completely different from the systems found in Oblivion and Skyrim, where every single NPC and monster has every single one of their stats dynamically adjusted to be "appropriate" for your level.

If all games with level scaling used as light a touch as Morrowind did, I wouldn't have nearly as much of problem with level scaling as I do now.

 

[Hong Kong Hermit]

All levelling is bad. All of it. I want unlocks, different equipment, sidegrades, but the idea of "number go up" adds nothing to games. Either the enemies scale with me, in which case why bother. Or they don't, and now there are trash mobs I can one shot and monsters so tough they one-shot me, and I'm trying to thread the needle between them. Bin it all, just give me a consistent experience and make "levelling up" be familiarity with the enemies and systems. That's all I want.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I asked what purpose adding bonuses on to base stats serves if those bonuses are (by your own admission) retroactively cancelled out by an additional system.

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Do you not understand that other systems and game design work in tandem? Like I'm not going to go back and forth with all your arguments because you're treating mechanics as individuals instead of being part of a cohesive unit. As long as you do this there is literally 0 point arguing with you. For example, in an open world game, if you want the player to be able to tackle challenges in any order it "may" make sense to have the game scale with level. You can't do this if you don't have a common parameter like level in your game because then you have nothing obvious to player to scale with growth. If stats were driven entirely by gear, it wouldn't make sense to scale enemies to it because then it makes gear pointless. Etc etc.

The game design dictates what systems make sense.

Regardless of the implementation details, the purpose of the dynamic level scaling systems we're talking about in this thread is to normalize the power level of enemies around that of the player. This is not my opinion any more than "The purpose of a clock is to tell the time" is.

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This is your opinion. The opening never sates the bolded. I never stated that either. Which again is why I see no point going back and forth with you. You've already decided what the thread and the answer is.

I never said Skyrim and Oblivion are good system design. I said that you can heave level scaling and still have trash enemies be trash as the levels increase. You just have to design your systems correctly. Level scaling in FF8 is actually pretty good. The system they have in place for that game would be a good base in an open world game.