It's legit mechanically more simple than aiming and shooting with two analogue sticks and two triggers, but let people have their tired talking points.
That's my question though.
Are the masses looking for something that "feels good" or are they simply looking for a strong singleplayer experience with a memorable cast?
i honestly always find it weird people gloss over how actually difficult console shooters are to control but it's mostly because for the majority of people there isn't really a better solution. they can't redesign how controllers work to suit one genreIt's legit mechanically more simple than aiming and shooting with two analogue sticks and two triggers, but let people have their tired talking points.
a quarter circle isn't intuitive. It came about due to limitations of controller mechanics back in the early 90s. Aiming and shooting is something that comes easy.It's legit mechanically more simple than aiming and shooting with two analogue sticks and two triggers, but let people have their tired talking points.
how is it unintuitive, moreso than using twin sticksa quarter circle isn't intuitive. It came about due to limitations of controller mechanics back in the early 90s. Aiming and shooting is something that comes easy.
Smash is not very intuitive. Smash Ultimate is my first foray into the series. I've played video games for over 30 years. It did not help me from being clumsy and confused initially, just like I would with any genre of competitive video game I wasn't familiar with.
I know Smash is just as difficult to learn as other fighting games from experience.
MOBAs show that simple controls doesn't have to mean that your game is "dumbed down." There are other ways to have depth besides putting a high barrier of entry to your control scheme.
a quarter circle isn't intuitive. It came about due to limitations of controller mechanics back in the early 90s. Aiming and shooting is something that comes easy.
It just is. I tap the direction of the stick with my thumb and it moves where I want it to go without having to memorize some arbitrary steps.
Let's agree to disagree.You have no self-awareness here. There is nothing about aiming and shooting on a control pad that "comes easy." It's easy for people who play video games because we've all learned how to do it. It's a skill that video games have demanded we acquire. There's nothing natural or intuitive about it, though.
Exactly this. People are confusing complexity with depth yet again, as if they were two labels on the same axis, rather than two entirely separate and orthogonal axes.
Go: Low complexity, high depth.
Calvinball: High complexity, low depth.
Ah, so that's why you posted that false statement in the OP. Gotta love the fighting game community and its gatekeeping toxicity.Smash Bros. isn't a fighting game. Don't feel like having this discussion here, though. lol
Apparently HE hit one. Read it again: he didn't call your skills personally into question, he just said it's likely that you're in the same camp as the people he described. That you immediately thought he was directly attacking you in particular and immediately started rattling off your digital trophies says a lot, though.Because you called my fighting game "skillz" into question...max rank black belt in 3rd Strike, Ultra Gold in SFV, Garou tournament, etc. I didn't know calling video game mechanics dumbed down = hostility. Did I hit a nerve? You alright, bro?
i truly believe there is a much better argument out there for why motion inputs are "bad design" than "it just is" but i feel like literally every argument against them is extremely subjective and based on preference rather than design. i really feel like if you dislike motion inputs to the point where it stops you from playing the game you probably wouldnt enjoy fighting games very much to begin with. a lot of things in these games beyond a basic level of play have pretty complex and sometimes completely arbitrary inputs (see: option selects ruling a lot of games like SF4)It just is. I tap the direction of the stick with my thumb and it moves where I want it to go without having to memorize some arbitrary steps.
Only Ultra Gold? 😏Because you called my fighting game "skillz" into question...max rank black belt in 3rd Strike, Ultra Gold in SFV, Garou tournament, etc. I didn't know calling video game mechanics dumbed down = hostility. Did I hit a nerve? You alright, bro?
The distinction doesn't matter when people want to label high depth stuff as something they should be able to do as a beginner.
I agree and that's why people like me want fighting games "dumbed down" as OP put it.i truly believe there is a much better argument out there for why motion inputs are "bad design" than "it just is" but i feel like literally every argument against them is extremely subjective and based on preference rather than design. i really feel like if you dislike motion inputs to the point where it stops you from playing the game you probably wouldnt enjoy fighting games very much to begin with. a lot of things in these games beyond a basic level of play have pretty complex and sometimes completely arbitrary inputs (see: option selects ruling a lot of games like SF4)
What's funny about SFV is I feel like it's the worst of both worlds. The game is actually pretty rough for complete beginners to the genre because of the game's combo system. Most combos heavily feature links which are both fairly difficult for inexperienced players to perform as well as require game knowledge to know which moves can link into other ones. They also usually end with a special move as an ender, which requires you to do an input that you're probably already struggling to do at all very quickly after the normal hits and is usually unsafe on block. Most other fighters out there you can often do some form of mashing (either by having a magic series combo or move strings like NRS and Bamco games) but with SF you can't mash at all.
The simplifications SFV did largely affected the higher level of play, not the lower level. The fact that Ryu's optimal combo doesn't feature any 1 frame links isn't going to help out someone who can't even get a DP consistently, but it does affect the higher level of the game. So in essence SFV suffered a lot of the downsides of "simplification" while not really having any of the benefits.
Doesn't that just reinforce the idea that fighting games should be more accessible?When the vast majority of people who spout it cant do anything other than the combo they drill into their head, yea.
Because you called my fighting game "skillz" into question...max rank black belt in 3rd Strike, Ultra Gold in SFV, Garou tournament, etc. I didn't know calling video game mechanics dumbed down = hostility. Did I hit a nerve? You alright, bro?
How bout u go an fuck off my page then u peice of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like u telling me about looking good who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of hereThat is your takeaway and counter to a six paragraph post highlighting the FGC's well documented elitism and hostility towards new players? A dick measuring contest?
Methinks someone's nerve was indeed hit.
But that's exactly how fighting game players get better! They play other people and learn from what went wrong and work on what did better from there.The masses are looking for games without arbitrary execution barriers that offer absolutely nothing in the way of depth, like 1-frame links, 720º rolls or the epitome of stupidity, [db],df,db,uf+3P.
The masses are also looking for games they can play with their friends to get better, as opposed to spending hours by themselves in the lab to optimize their combos.
(and yes, by "the masses" I mean me).
How bout u go an fuck off my page then u peice of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like u telling me about looking good who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
I'd argue that it's more natural and intuitive from a logical standpoint. Yes, if I've never played any game that used twin sticks to aim, I will have to learn how to do it and it will take time. But logically, it doesn't really take much to understand the logic of pointing at a thing to aim and shooting it. Also once you do figure it out, you are very unlikely to ever have trouble with it again since it's such a universal concept in any first person game like that. It's like riding a bike. On the other hand, learning fighting game combos is not as intuitive and requires memorization of very specific inputs that differ between moves, characters and games. I know games where I have gone back to after not having played them for a long time and have forgotten how to do the combos. Not so for any shooting game.You have no self-awareness here. There is nothing about aiming and shooting on a control pad that "comes easy." It's easy for people who play video games because we've all learned how to do it. It's a skill that video games have demanded we acquire. There's nothing natural or intuitive about it, though.
Yikes... this thread took a turn.How bout u go an fuck off my page then u peice of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like u telling me about looking good who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
I was speaking in general terms based on what I've seen and experienced through the years IRT fighting games, not you specifically.Because you called my fighting game "skillz" into question...max rank black belt in 3rd Strike, Ultra Gold in SFV, Garou tournament, etc. I didn't know calling video game mechanics dumbed down = hostility. Did I hit a nerve? You alright, bro?
You're a clown dude. Stop being so toxic for no reason.How bout u go an fuck off my page then u peice of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like u telling me about looking good who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
How bout u go an fuck off my page then u peice of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like u telling me about looking good who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
I'm all for FighterZ's steps towards accessibility but I don't believe autocombos should exist in ranked matches because it removes mid-level play, imo.If you wanted to have a legitimate conversation without anyone getting offended, then opening with such a negatively-loaded term as "dumbed down" to describe "changes accomodating to a specific section of players" is the worst possible way about it. Failing that, you should at least have described exactly what examples you meant by that term. In the same way that a QCF may not be "intuitive" to everyone (and only gamers could think that), what you are thinking of may be very different to what others are thinking of by that term. Do you e.g. consider FighterZ steps towards accesibility a misstep?
I'd argue that it's more natural and intuitive from a logical standpoint. Yes, if I've never played any game that used twin sticks to aim, I will have to learn how to do it and it will take time. But logically, it doesn't really take much to understand the logic of pointing at a thing to aim and shooting it. Also once you do figure it out, you are very unlikely to ever have trouble with it again since it's such a universal concept in any first person game like that. It's like riding a bike. On the other hand, learning fighting game combos is not as intuitive and requires memorization of very specific inputs that differ between moves, characters and games. I know games where I have gone back to after not having played them for a long time and have forgotten how to do the combos. Not so for any shooting game.
Totally agreed. It's great to see that more and more modern fighters are being built with pads in mind rather than a stick (sometimes meaning 4 inputs vs. 6), as I agree it's not necessary... but it is a perceived barrier to enjoyment; another excuse as to why not to get into them.I feel like most people think they need a fightstick to play better, when they's really not the case for the vast majority of modern fighting games now. It feels like ,ost of the people who think this are those who are newer to the genre, or want to gravitate towards what they remember from the arcade days.
But that's exactly how fighting game players get better! They play other people and learn from what went wrong and work on what did better from there.
People really get stuck on this idea of training mode before you play when it's the other way around - play, get questions about what happened and then training mode to find the answers that you weren't able to find in the match.
You seem to have skipped over the entire point of my argument. I agreed with you that if you don't have experience using twin sticks to aim in a game, it will be difficult to learn so why are you repeating that point? My point was that it takes less hard memorization and more orientation to learn. The concept itself is intuitive, you just need time doing it to orientate yourself to it. Once you do learn it, it's a universal skill that you hardly need to relearn.Not a very compelling argument. Just watch anybody who has never used a gamepad before. Hell, just watch PC PLAYERS who have never used a gamepad before.
Mortal Kombat and Injustice are not easy at all, wouldn't be far off SF in terms of execution and depth at a competitive levelAnd Mortal Kombat/Injustice.
The industry knows that 'dumbed down' fighting games can sell - the issue is that for the legacy fighting game franchises, their reputation of being such complex & unwelcoming experiences gets in the way of any new accessibility initiatives.
Bruh lolHow bout u go an fuck off my page then u peice of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like u telling me about looking good who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
The entire point behind the game(and most games with any competitive aspect in general) is that the person who practiced more wins. Inputs that you have to practice is just one way that manifests, and a good way to still have a gap between players once gamesense has been mastered.But the key words here are "for the most part", and that is precisely what this thread is about. Some games include combos that both give you a competitive advantage, and require some extremely precise execution. There's really no reason for these to exist in a fighting game. None whatsoever. The only thing they add is a disadvantage for the player that doesn't want to spend however number of hours you need to get down the exact timing of the combo, and then spend however more so that you can perform it automatically without thinking in the middle of a match.
You have no self-awareness here. There is nothing about aiming and shooting on a control pad that "comes easy." It's easy for people who play video games because we've all learned how to do it. It's a skill that video games have demanded we acquire. There's nothing natural or intuitive about it, though.
The entire point behind the game(and most games with any competitive aspect in general) is that the person who practiced more wins.
It still doesn't change the fact that you called my post beforehand hostile when it wasn't, lol. What should I have said other than dumbed down mechanics? Less complex? Genuinely curious.I was speaking in general terms based on what I've seen and experienced through the years IRT fighting games, not you specifically.
Interesting that you took it that way though. It reinforces my point on hostility, no?
You seem to have skipped over the entire point of my argument. I agreed with you that if you don't have experience using twin sticks to aim in a game, it will be difficult to learn so why are you repeating that point? My point was that it takes less hard memorization and more orientation to learn. The concept itself is intuitive, you just need time doing it to orientate yourself to it. Once you do learn it, it's a universal skill that you hardly need to relearn.
For example, I never really played FPS games until Overwatch so I KNOW what you are talking about with it being hard to learn how to aim properly. But I did learn eventually and that skill applies to every OW character and every FPS game I have played with little inconsistency. I have taken months-long breaks from Overwatch and have never really forgot how to aim. I can't say the same for any fighting game with a robust execution barrier to doing simple moves.
i know this is a little irrelevant the point but the amount of people who grew up with arcades readily available now is so minuscule it makes a lot of sense why a lot of people feel like fish out of water with the genre. arcade nostalgia is mostly limited to people who are already really into (japanese) arcade games or people who had them in their area (i.e korea, latin america)You acquired the language to play FPS games from Overwatch. That makes sense to me. If you acquired the language to play SFII back in the 90s (like damn near EVERYBODY who played video games back then, from the most casual to the most hardcore we all played SFII), you would have been able to apply those skills to the last 29 years of 2D arcade fighting games as well.