• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,715
Is the philosophy behind Riot's fighting game not needing to lab it up? I haven't been paying attention to it. Sad if true.
If it is anyything like Rising Thunder(This is the dev team they purchased) there are still normals and combos but special moves are a single button input with a cool down instead of traditional. So there is still depth and stuff to learn just not very input heavy.
 
OP
OP
Waluigi's World
Jun 5, 2020
958
I think a lot of fighting games fail in the tutorial/training aspect. They usually don't teach the timing of the button inputs to newbies. I think Tekken 7 did sound cues which I liked a lot, if I remember correctly. In Street Fighter V, I only made some progress after digging through instructional videos on Youtube.
The sad truth is no matter how good your training options are, most new players aren't going to even bother launching the tutorial.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,703
South Central Los Angeles
To someone who has never played a fighting game this is just impossible. I have tried this for 30minutes whithout getting any better at it. The full stick rotation in less than a second and the holding one direction and then go the other in peticular.



Those moves were in Street Fighter II. Countless millions of people who never played fighting games before had fun learning how to play the game. Many people never got beyond the basic jump kick and sweep combo, and it was fine. They didn't even have the luxury of training mode or seeing command lists in many cases.
 

CanUKlehead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,403
I had all the time in the world to get into VF2 and Street Fighter III in the mid-90s.

I don't have that kind of time anymore. It's why I bought DBFZ but not Guilty Gear.

So yes, I would love if a fighting game had the option for the casual crowd to have a bit of fun for a bit, without learning every nuance.
 

QisTopTier

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,717
Good question. I would have bought it regardless.
And enjoy it less, but your point still stands. Still, more options are always a good thing.

Here's an example:

As a Ky main I can do the combos that are 7-8 hits. I'm not even sure what the difference is in most of these attack strings, ideally you go for either meter or damage. The amount here is simply overwhelming. Autocombos help a lot.

The goal with ky is to do whatever leads to the most damage and an oki set up even at the cost of using meter to set it up over doing damage unless it is a scenario where you are going to kill. Ky lives and breathes on keeping people locked down hard in his offensive swing mid match. The thing that is nice about ky is he works so well with GG's subsystems that he has a ton of ways to make that goal happen so you can do the strings and stuff that you are comfortable with as long as you stick to that gameplan.

Then when you get more comfortable you can start experimenting and adding your own free flow to different aspects of the match.

 
Last edited:

Soj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,703
A larger audience than the one they have, which means the one they have isn't enough. The level of complexity has to be reset from time to time so the game doesn't build a reputation for being completely inaccessible and scare off even the people who are into other fighting games.
 

ImaPlayThis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,070
To someone who has never played a fighting game this is just impossible. I have tried this for 30minutes whithout getting any better at it. The full stick rotation in less than a second and the holding one direction and then go the other in peticular.


In fairness I blame SFV for this being difficult for you by not explaining anything properly, for M/ Bison you don't actually have to charge anything despite what it say because when in his V-Trigger none of his specials charge if cancelled into them and as for zangief you don't actually jump then do a 360, you shortcut it, otherwise it can't really be done. But the game is utterly terrible at conveying this information to the players.

On a side note I still knowso many people who don't know what shoryuken motions actually are because old games on the move list used to have a Z shaped arrow go over the entire d-pad
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
Some of the more successful fighting games of this generation are more simplified than their previous counterparts. Tekken 7 is MUCH more "dumbed down" than TTT2 for example. DBFZ and GBVS to some extent are simpler fighters than what ASW has put out previously.

A variety of factors go into what makes a FG successful versus a failure. There are about as many examples of a fighter failing due to bloat/over complication as there are of fighters which failed because they were simpler.

The reality is that a fighting game being successful doesn't have much to do with how dumb/complex it is. It's about the perceived package and quality of it. All those people who bought Smash Ultimate are not bothered that it is a less complex/skill intensive game than Smash Melee, they are buying it for its huge content and all the characters.

The real trap that developers got into in the past was when they "dumbed down" the game but did not make it up in other ways. SFV is a prime example of this where they definitely made it more accessible but they didn't put in anything in the game that would motivate casual players to actually buy it on launch. It took several years of updating and adding more content for SFV to be appealing to more players and be successful. T7 on the other hand down, while a step down in complexity from TTT2 still remembered to put an ample amount of content in the game for everyone on launch. In fact, T7 got a lot of praise in comparison to SFV as they both launched around the same time. Not to say T7 is a perfect example of it, it has numerous short comings as well and these days those short comings stick out more (like terrible loading, online experience and general bloat/power creep).
 

Nephtes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,550
I feel Killer Instinct 2013 had just the right balance between ease of execution for new comers and complex systems for veterans.

The tutorial was best in the business at teaching the fundamentals and the combo mechanic with openers linkers and enders is so SOOOO simple that you just get it immediately which lets you delve into the mind games with combo breakers and shadow breakers.

But the game still adheres to quarter circular motions and Z-motion moves... which I'm sorry, new comers, you need to learn these.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,237
Fans of fighters that don't play them daily, newcomers, friends at parties, there are many people they could be interested in options or "dumb downed" controls, people aren't a hivemind that can be simply classified as "casuals".
 
OP
OP
Waluigi's World
Jun 5, 2020
958
Fans of fighters that don't play them daily, newcomers, friends at parties, there are many people they could be interested in options or "dumb downed" controls, people aren't a hivemind that can be simply classified as "casuals".
So you're saying there's no such thing as a casual player? LOL. I'm a casual player when it comes to many game genres, it's not an offensive term.
 

m29a

Member
Oct 25, 2017
387
The hardcore players are going to be an angry vocal minority who will do their best to spread as much negativity as they can before release.

In my opinion this can be overstated. They would be just that, a vocal minority that can't speak for everyone else and if they're making posts on forums (which is common), the large bulk of average players aren't going to even be on forums to begin with to see those angry posts. I just think if it has a real effect, it's quite limited.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,655
To someone who has never played a fighting game this is just impossible. I have tried this for 30minutes whithout getting any better at it. The full stick rotation in less than a second and the holding one direction and then go the other in peticular.


There are tricks to some of this stuff. Like how Gief only needs a 240° and not a full rotation, and you can input the last move on the ground. You move the stick/dpad from backwards to upward jump and then hit two punches. You don't need to individually jump and then do the rotation in the air. For Bison's trial you don't need to charge his scissors during that combo. The trials in SFV can be pretty esoteric sometimes honestly.. Some of them require microwalking between inputs and it doesn't bother telling you.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,237
So you're saying there's no such thing as a casual player? LOL. I'm a casual player when it comes to many game genres, it's not an offensive term.
No I didn't, people can casually enjoy something and it's okay when used as a self description, the problem is when people decided to group anyone who isn't them or their group (in this case competitive fighting game fans) as casuals regardless of their interest, enjoyment etc on the work, you can be into fighting games without being into the competitive angle as games like Smash showed to great effect. Plus so many times "casual" is used as term to dismiss opinions or treat other fans or people in general as less capable of enjoying said thing. You don't get to decide what type of fan someone else is.
 
May 5, 2018
7,353
I'm honestly the target audience for perhaps these "dumbed Down" Fighters. I like to play 1-2 fighting games a year and I'll see if 1, I want to keep playing them on a casual level and 2, see if it's something my family and friends want to play. And typically they are fighting games that are more accessible such as MK11 and DBFZ even though those games have a high ceiling to mastering combos and strategies. I'll never be a super hardcore fighting game fan but will always want to try out a new fighter when it comes out.

That said, there's one fighting game that reached a 1.0 release this year that has an incredible tutorial and is fairly accessible, but a game that takes time to master its characters as well as a game I want to spend more time with to get better at. That game is Them's Fightin' Herds. TFH has a great tutorial the explains how complicated techniques in fighting games work to a more casual audience and really breaks down how it's fighting system clicks. It also has amazing online play being a game that uses rollback netcode and a tremendous lobby system that can easily let you request a fight with someone online if they agree to brawl. Oh and while not finished, it's story mode is shaping to be maybe the best fighting game story mode ever. You travel on a 16 bit like JRPG map but you fight enemy encounters that teach you how to fight fighting game archetypes (fighting wolves teach you how to perform anti-air attacks as they pounce). And when you fight another playable character in the roster in story mode, they have unique phases where they do attacks that they can't do when you fight them online or in an arcade ladder (One fight has a snooty deer summoning a blizzard and she'll launch icicles at you while she hides in the blizzard). Sorry, wanted to get my admiration for this game off my chest.
 

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,638
Honestly, I don't even know. The typical genre of fighting games is inherently skill/combo based for the typical approach and it's hard to make something that appeals both to newcomers and fans alike with the traditional style. But at the same time, appealing only to existing fans is risky and doesn't really allow growth, so maybe those casual things are better? I don't know, I don't work in game design and I'm just an armchair

Super Smash Bros is successful with both new comers and pros alike because it doesn't follow the same formula as the more "traditional" fighters (and because it's a Nintendo first party cross over game, but I digress). It's easy to learn but hard to master, and has a wide assortment of really fun characters, but I wonder how the existing fighting game teams could really apply that to their games without hurting the existing base
 

AxkilAvenger

Banned
Apr 8, 2018
1,641
They are all for me. I love fighting games but I hate combos. I'm not a child anymore. No time to invest heavily in these ten hit break my fingers combos anymore
 

Mbolibombo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,043
People who enjoy fighting games without having to play a million hours to perform some moves perhaps?

I dont agree with what you are saying in the OP, most casual fighting game players arent really doing it for the single player campaign rather having some bouts with your friends while hanging out and then you would rather have a "dumbed down" fighting game over an advanced one.

Also, Tekken 7 isnt the best selling fighting game this gen.
 
OP
OP
Waluigi's World
Jun 5, 2020
958
People who enjoy fighting games without having to play a million hours to perform some moves perhaps?

I dont agree with what you are saying in the OP, most casual fighting game players arent really doing it for the single player campaign rather having some bouts with your friends while hanging out and then you would rather have a "dumbed down" fighting game over an advanced one.

Also, Tekken 7 isnt the best selling fighting game this gen.
Smash Bros. isn't a fighting game. Don't feel like having this discussion here, though. lol
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,502
There are tricks to some of this stuff. Like how Gief only needs a 240° and not a full rotation, and you can input the last move on the ground. You move the stick/dpad from backwards to upward jump and then hit two punches. You don't need to individually jump and then do the rotation in the air. For Bison's trial you don't need to charge his scissors during that combo. The trials in SFV can be pretty esoteric sometimes honestly.. Some of them require microwalking between inputs and it doesn't bother telling you.
Lack of specificity regarding timing, cancels, and movement between inputs often makes viewing demonstrations of the trials before attempting them mandatory ("How was I supposed to know to do that?" ends up being something that SFV's trials make me say entirely more than they should).
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
I love how there's no middle ground between "Beginner" and "destroying my hands to learn XX hit combos"

The sad reality is that no matter what your fighting game does, it probably can't overcome the 1v1 mentality that people don't want to put up with.

Samurai Shodown is pretty "dumbed down" but it's one of the more punishing games out there.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,655
Lack of specificity regarding timing, cancels, and movement between inputs often makes viewing demonstrations of the trials before attempting them mandatory ("How was I supposed to know to do that?" ends up being something that SFV's trials make me say entirely more than they should).
Trials in SFV are just poorly done. Some of them I had to google to figure them out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,363
Nothing is "dumbed down", there are simply different developer design choices and none are inherently better than the other. As to the question, fighting game developers may want to appeal to an audience who prefers a different gameplay philosophy in order to potentially grow the fanbase of the franchise. Some fans view fighting games as competitive games, some view them as party games, fun button mashers and so on. It's all about the tools in a devs toolbox and what they want to use to appeal to different audiences.
 
Last edited:

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,412
There are probably more people than you'd think who are looking for an entry into fighting games. Hearing "it's got a simplified system that can ease you into the harder stuff down the road" is really appealing to them. You could argue it doesn't actually do that well or the cost isn't worth the gain, but that's who is trying to be appealed to. New audiences intimidated by the existing complexity. Though I feel this is obvious, so you likely knew it. As such, you're really saying that this doesn't work or you don't want that audience to be the target, so your thread should be more honest.
 
Oct 29, 2017
6,257
I think looking at the whole "more accessible" approach through the gameplay itself is a fatally flawed approach, because most developers are too frightened of their existing core audience to commit to it as much as they should. It would make more sense to produce new IP that can go all in on that from the start without the baggage of legacy...but most of the existing FG developers have their hands full with the mainline franchises. Plus, as others have mentioned, the people who put in the time to learn the game will stomp casual players and button mashers no matter how simplified the gameplay is.

NetherRealm and ArcSys's approach, where they give you lots to see and do beyond just getting mauled in the lion's den of online, is the best way forward. Any simplifications should be done for the sake of quality-of-life improvement rather than making the game more "casual friendly" IMO.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
I kinda like it. I think P4 Arena did it well by having viable autocombos and easy ways to do the main fighting game tools (like the standarized mixup moves for every character). It gave you fundamental fighting game tools with a low execution barrier, while still having the more advanced stuff there for people who wanted to dig deeper.

Let's say I wanted to learn a fighting game and know that I want to do x in a given situation, like an overhead. It's a tool that I know my character has, and I know it might be effective in that situation. Having a lower execution barrier to that tool means I can more confidently use that tool in a match without spending hours in training mode to make sure I don't give the opponent a free shot every time I screw up something more complicated, like a tiger knee input to make an aerial move come out close to the ground. The mindgames are the same, but the barrier to entry is lower because the execution is easier. That's not really "dumbing down" the game, but rather it's making it easier to step in and play a match without going "I need to spend another few hours in training mode before I even think about joining anything".
 

Ishmae1

Creative Director, Microsoft
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
539
Seattle, WA
I'd say the OP's language highlights an issue that the FGC runs into constantly: Inherent hostility towards new players

Fighting games in general have a lot of challenges attracting new customers because of how unique they are. Not only do players have to learn concepts that don't really apply in any other genre (hitboxes, active / windup / recovery frames, BLOCKING, hitstun, recovery, combo system rules, character nuances, etc.), they have to learn a completely new way to control inputs, especially when it comes to special moves - no other genre requires SRK motions, fireballs, 360's, crescents, etc. Nor do many games use 6 buttons in the way that fighting games do. All of these are barriers to entry.

On top of that, most people need a fightstick to play better (not everyone does), which is an expensive investment.

And the online community in fighters can be... unwelcoming... at times for new players.

Any of these things can cause new / potential players to bounce hard off the game, and we've not even gotten to the why and when of how any of the thigs they learn should / could be put into use practically. Refer to most of Capcom's tutorials as the best example of "rote memorization of something, but have no idea why it's useful or when".

An ideal, well-designed fighting game should help players find the fun of fighting games via great tutorials (most don't do this), a campaign that teaches the game and eases players into fighting game concepts (none have really done this), input simplification for basic actions (some have, much to the angst of others), provides active learning / education when players fail (co-op training option is the only manifestation of this I can even think of), and online filtering / new user corralling (some try this).

If things like autocombos / mashables (aka a "dumbing down") allow new players to find some fun in the complicated world of fighting games, why is that a problem? Unless the high-end skill ceiling is somehow capped (I have never seen this in any fighter that has mashable stuff, btw) this doesn't impact anyone except those in the "kiddy pool" to use a term that goes well with OP's language.

If people are complaining that a game is "dumbed down" it's likely because they weren't going to play it anyway, they're in another fighter's camp (FGC can be very clannish) and want to discredit it, or they weren't that good to begin with and feel their "skillz" are now threatened.

TL;DR: As long as time spent with the game and dedicated "labbing" / practice reward mastery and displays of great skill (mentally or physically) for those that want to earn that, then there's no "dumbing down" claim that holds legitimate criticism.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,064
It worked well for Fantasy Strike.

nxzq6dP.png

Last 30 Days 125.3 +53.9 +75.50% 377

PiercingFlatLadybird-poster.jpg
 

JumbiePrime

Member
Feb 16, 2019
1,887
Bklyn
It's to even the playing field a bit . Good players will still mop scrubs but maybe said scrub will get a round . It's kind of like pulling in the 3 point line at a basketball court. If the lesser player can now at least reach the basket he maybe has something to work with
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,530
I don't think it matters what they do in terms of simplification if they can't find some other hook. After all these years I think fighting games (especially traditional ones) are inherently limited in what they can accomplish. They're straight up just not as fun as other things unless you put in more time and energy compared to other genres. Simplifying won't help things much because then the player will still go online and get bodied. Or they'll try to play with their friends, and they'll just body their friends and then they won't want to play anymore. And single player is just a lost cause. The mechanics don't support good single player compared to other genres. Even smash bro's has garbage single player for the most part.
 

Mr Spasiba

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,779
It's to even the playing field a bit . Good players will still mop scrubs but maybe said scrub will get a round . It's kind of like pulling in the 3 point line at a basketball court. If the lesser player can now at least reach the basket he maybe has something to work with
Still waiting for the game where this is actually the case though.
 

Pellaidh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,173
To the kind of audience that plays games like Brawlhalla or For Honor, I'd imagine. Brawlhalla in particular shows that there is a casual audience out there that likes to play fighting games. It's just that traditional fighting game devs don't seem to be very successful at reaching it.
 

Tolby

Member
Sep 24, 2019
691
Eastern Europe
"rote memorization of something, but have no idea why it's useful or when".

This is every fighting game ever. I have no idea which move is good for which situation, so I just do the move that looks cool and hope for the best.

Guilty Gear Xrd (Rev2) has an amazing tutorial about movement and Roman Cancels, but then shits the bed with the individual character movelist/combo one. It never tells you the properties of a given move, nor does it tell you when any of the combos are useful. Very frustrating.
 

Wise

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,228
I'm happier they are making them easier. Guilty Gear XRD is impossible to play
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,416
"Dumbing down" fighting games is to appeal to mass market, but you can do that without making it lack depth. Virtua Fighter's reputation, sadly, was ahead of the fact that it's actually quite simple to play but takes time and effort to get any sort of mastery with it. So instead it becomes "this difficult game to play" and can't shake it even if you put amazing 1P content in it like VF4Evo did.
 

Raysoul

Fat4All Ruined My Rug
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,016
Me I guess.

I would have liked Street Fighter if my favorite character (Claw) has easy inputs, but doing a super is too damn hard.

I have also shied away from Tekken before because I always get comboed into 1/4th of my life before I can do anything.

Now Soul Calibur clicked for me because it just works in a basic sense. No long combos, just pure punish game while retaining the ability to look good.

Now I am a semi-competitive arcade player on Tekken as I have learned the fundamentals on SC. I can also now learn any fighting game in an hour as I have now learned the common terminologies on fighting games.

I still have a problem in executing hard moves, so games like DBFZ clicked on me as I can perform cool shit without losing a finger.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,064
"Dumbing down" fighting games is to appeal to mass market, but you can do that without making it lack depth. Virtua Fighter's reputation, sadly, was ahead of the fact that it's actually quite simple to play but takes time and effort to get any sort of mastery with it. So instead it becomes "this difficult game to play" and can't shake it even if you put amazing 1P content in it like VF4Evo did.

Pointing to a dead series that was getting beat up by other franchises even when it was alive is not a very convincing argument.
 

Zombegoast

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,233
I tried playing Fantasy Strike after going free to play and gave up after an hour being in training mode.


It's at the point where it's too basic and it gets rid of mechanics that are universally used in fighting games. I can't get over the fact that jumping is dedicated to a button

On it's surface. DBFZ is easy to pick up and play. If you want to appeal both beginners and experts, you want to go to that route while excluding the more complex mechanics.
 

just_myles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,464
Smash Bros. could have the most depth of any fighting game out there and fans would still buy it in droves because of the cast.

That does make sense. I consider Sf3 series to be some of the most forgiving with regards to inputs but was not really that popular because the larger audience wanted Sf2 cast. This explains sf4s overall popularity despite it being shit.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,887
On top of that, most people need a fightstick to play better (not everyone does), which is an expensive investment.
I feel like most people think they need a fightstick to play better, when they's really not the case for the vast majority of modern fighting games now. It feels like ,ost of the people who think this are those who are newer to the genre, or want to gravitate towards what they remember from the arcade days.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,325
I wish fighting games were just all about timing and predicting and not combo memorizations

chess for example is a very simple game to understand but also very deep, that's how I want fighting games to be