What's your opinion of FFXII's combat? - (did anyone try the Struggle for Freedom mod on PC?)

[astro]

I'm playing through the game at the moment for the first time (I did try it at launch, and bought TZA on PS4, but I only made it a few hours in), and while I'm enjoying the game overall, and while I really like the battle and gambit systems, combat is very easy. So easy that 90% of fights including bosses have allowed me to just stand still while my Gambits automate and take them out quickly.

I'm curious how other people found the system. I really like the process of setting up my gambits, choosing my jobs, sharing out gear, forming parties, etc... and I like how relaxing it is to mow through general battles, but the lack of any engaging challenge is slowly wearing at me.

I've looked into weak mode and the Struggle for Freedom mod. Weak mode looks like it restricts what is useful a lot, and I'm enjoying experimenting with jobs... so I think that will be more for a second run. I'm currently debating installing the mod, but I'm not a fan of the new classes the mod gives, and the author has said they're not happy with the changes they made to the base jobs, which is putting me off a little. I do really like the idea of the more dangerous mobs and some of the changes to technicks, though...

I've had some feedback in the LTTP thread I made, but I'm still not sure which option I want to take.

I've been told that there will be some encounters later even in a standard playthrough that might give me the challenge I want (super bosses and elite hunts seem to be the main source for this). I know FF is hardly known for it's challenging combat outside of optional challenges, but this game seems even easier due to the gambit system (although this might just be a perception thing).

What's everyone else's opinion?

I'm still enjoying it enough to keep playing, but the lack of challenge is eating at me more in this game that it usually does in FF titles. I'm curious to hear from other players who might have felt the same as me, but either used the mod or witched to weak mode and found the game to be much better for them, or maybe just powered through standard and discovered enough optional challenges as a pay off?

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Not a fan. Gambits don't bother me that much, but the general flow of combat just made me so bored most of the time. I was never having fun.

Also not a fan of any RPG where the player's attacks have a set range that you have to be within to do damage, but enemy attacks can hit you from anywhere, even if you're running away and have put a ton of distance between you and your attacker. FFXII loved to do this.

 

[ciddative]

LOVE the gambit system.

Halfway through FF7 remake I wished there was a similar system in place, so I could get my AI team members to actually use their ATB

In hindsight obviously it's better to manage their ATB yourself, but some automation wouldnt hurt

 

[astro]

LOVE the gambit system.

Halfway through FF7 remake I wished there was a similar system in place, so I could get my AI team members to actually use their ATB

In hindsight obviously it's better to manage their ATB yourself, but some automation wouldnt hurt

Click to shrink...

Please let's not turn this Into a ff7 debate thread >.<

 

[bunikerrim]

I'm playing it right now on Switch, and the combat is a walk in the park, but there's something really gratifying in "making" your own combat, as it gets easier the better your gambits are. And then, if you make it so you always steal when you find an enemy, it's easy AND optimized, since you can get more money.
It's easy as hell, but the customizable nature of everything makes it satisfying for me

 

[silva1991]

I love love love the combat. My favorite part of the game actually. gambit is my of my favorite systems alongside with junction and materia.

 

[ghostemoji]

I really love the gambit system. It's like a puzzle system in a way that's really fun to crack. Makes grinding an enjoyable experience.

 

[Dougieflesh]

It's boring.

 

[Haze]

Please let's not turn this Into a ff7 debate thread >.<

Click to shrink...

Lmao I'll bite. I liked how it was handled I. 7 since it forced you to switch back and forth between characters at its most demanding moments.

The game isn't super difficult but some of the late game hunts will really make you sit down and plan out your gambits. But with proper gambits, you'll now things down regardless. The fun for me was being put in positions where I had to basically become a programmer.

 

[Deleted member 4869]

Fun and fast. I had a good time with XIII's combat system.

But it takes way too long for it to completely open up for the player.

 

[Addie]

Making the layers of gambits was the best part. I loved XII, including the combat system.

 

[chandoog]

I loved the gambit system. It was intuitive and a great way to manage party AI and give them a shit ton of automated command prerequisites.

The whole "it plays itself' commentary the game got when it first released always rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Athrum]

Loved the combat. If you don't use the gambit system and have the "pause while the menu is open" option, the game is basically like any other ATB FF.

 

[The Unsent]

I really like it but I wish XII has smaller areas and more missions like the air ships, to spice up the gameplay loop.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

I've always liked setting up the gambits and having my characters act out the way I envisioned but I also don't like having too much control taken away so I always had a specific set up:

- Gambits off for the party leader so I have to control them manually

- Active mode so the game doesn't pause while I'm making decisions

- Battle speed set to the fastest speed which overall lessens the amount of time I have to react

For me, it made the game more difficult especially when something my gambits couldn't handle occurred and I had to issue special orders to my party members. But yeah, having such specific control over AI party members is great. I wish Xenoblade had something similar.

Not a fan. Gambits don't bother me that much, but the general flow of combat just made me so bored most of the time. I was never having fun.

Also not a fan of any RPG where the player's attacks have a set range that you have to be within to do damage, but enemy attacks can hit you from anywhere, even if you're running away and have put a ton of distance between you and your attacker. FFXII loved to do this.

Click to shrink...

It's not so much that enemies can hit you from anywhere. It's more that they have an activation range and if you are within that range upon activation, you'll get hit even if you step out of range after the fact. Putting distance between you and an enemy that's chasing actually does delay their attacks as they chase you which is a good strategy to use especially early game.

 

[Strangelove_77]

Dull.

 

[carlsojo]

I find it to be one of the most boring, least engaging battle systems in any game ever.

 

[dancingphlower]

I really loved it. I liked the planning in gambit setups and then watching my teammates execute.

 

[astro]

So the ease didn't bother any of you who are saying you loved it at all? It feels easier here than mos otherwise FFs so far...

Mostly talking about bosses here.

I'm only early on, at Mt Bur-Omisace.

 

[kiaaa]

Automating combat is kinda interesting, but in the end it makes the actual encounters super boring.

 

[Aureon]

Loved Gambits, but waaaaaaaaaay too easy.

 

[7threst]

Playing it right now. I want to create some sets of gambits right now but I have a hard time knowing when a certain set will work on a character. Still, I love the idea of the way combat works in FFXII. There is more freedom in the way combat plays out then people give it credit for.

 

[Carassius Auratus]

I didn't really like it. It was either too hands-off or too much micromanaging and I couldn't find a balance. I never felt like I needed much strategy, but maybe I gave up on it too soon.

 

[KG]

I'm currently in the Sandsea area, combat system along with gambits is really good and fun to get through all the battles quickly. It is satisfying to have a good gambit system setup and see your efforts play out. Usually I will keep gambits off on party leader so I can have full control of them, but in the Sandsea area I have them on on everyone to get through the area more quickly.

 

[Zeal543]

I find FF12's combat system to be a functional nightmare. In any other game of its kind, e.g. dragon age or xenoblade, you choose your ability which are all laid out and the animation plays out. In 12, you scroll through a menu with submenus, choose your ability, wait for a bar to channel, then the animation plays out for every single little thing you do. The gambit system also sucks, outside of curing/status healing and the most basic of offensive AI setting, the system shits itself. Try to get a sensible "steal" command going and you'll see what I mean. Having a base AI on top of specific gambit commands would have helped out tremendously. Then there are little things like quickenings being a mess that also drag it down and the game hardly taking advantage of character positioning that make it even worse.

 

[Dlanor A. Knox]

Boring, game almost plays itself, most of the "gameplay" is just setting up gambits in the menu. Atleast that was my experience.

Hated it.

 

[astro]

I'm finding the abilities and spells to be pretty underwhelming atm...

Technicks feel mostly useless. I use charge, infuse, steal, and Shades of Black... but everything else so far seems pretty useless.

A lot of the spells that need enemies with higher health pools to really make use of (like bleed, for instance), bosses are immune to. Same for a bunch of the techs. This makes so many of the spells and skills feel redundant

Is there more use for some of these as the game progresses?

 

[TinTuba47]

Big fan

 

[darkside]

Hated it. This is right up there with FF2 as the worst FF games for me.

 

[tjlee2]

So the ease didn't bother any of you who are saying you loved it at all? It feels easier here than mos otherwise FFs so far...

Mostly talking about bosses here.

I'm only early on, at Mt Bur-Omisace.

Click to shrink...

Side content will start to present itself as a challenge from time to time. Story content will always be easy. In-combat will generally feel the same due to the system's basic structure. Most of the fun is making the character build, setting the gambits, and watching it perform.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

It's worth pointing out that in the Zodiac Job version of the game, you get pretty much all the gambits and slots very early (for very cheap). In the original version, they were doled out as you went through the game, starting you off with the least useful ones. So in the early game you had to have a bit more direct input into fights, rather than setting up things that will last you almost the entire game.

 

[astro]

I find FF12's combat system to be a functional nightmare. In any other game of its kind, e.g. dragon age or xenoblade, you choose your ability which are all laid out and the animation plays out. In 12, you scroll through a menu with submenus, choose your ability, wait for a bar to channel, then the animation plays out for every single little thing you do. The gambit system also sucks, outside of curing/status healing and the most basic of offensive AI setting, the system shits itself. Try to get a sensible "steal" command going and you'll see what I mean. Having a base AI on top of specific gambit commands would have helped out tremendously. Then there are little things like quickenings being a mess that also drag it down and the game hardly taking advantage of character positioning that make it even worse.

Click to shrink...

100% enemy health = steal is fine. Let Vann steal once from everything in range, then just manual target and drop everything below 100% and he stops. 99% of the time it will handle it without the need to do that.

The gambit system so far seems very solid that part to me is one of the major strengths here. It just also makes the easy combat feel even easier...

 

[NioA]

Initially I didn't mind it, when every character can equip 3 or 4 gambits at most and there's not much variety in the actions of the characters there was a good degree of strategy and a need of an appropriate setting for every boss battle.
Later in the game it became boring and repetitive cause each character had 13/14 gambits slot and they were all prepared for any situation they could have faced and I didn't touch the controller for basically ten hours or so. I got through entire fields for entire hour and the only actions I did were unlocking new license and buying new equipment. The idea itself isn't bad at all, but the lack of any sort of interaction with the player during the battles got tiring really fast.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

Couldn't stand it, one of my least favorite battle systems ever. Not knocking anyone who loves it, but I just can't get into battle mechanics where the objective is to "program" the game to play itself while you sit back and watch. I hated the very idea of gambits almost as much as I hated actually setting them up.

The Zodiac Age at least fixed and vastly improved the License Board side of the game, which I also thought was just awful in the original, but for me that still wasn't enough to overcome the gambit system and the incredibly dull, stale combat it results in.

Like I said though, I'm not knocking people who like it, and I know FFXII has its fans. It's just not for me.

 

[Kuro]

It was terrible at launch, serviceable after Zodiac and the ports.

 

[EggmaniMN]

It's basically perfect. It lets me automate all the parts that would normally just be me mashing attack anyway and I can just pay attention to micro managing specific skills as the flow of battle changes. The game was already great on PS2, the Zodiac version just makes it one of the best FFs ever made.

The vast majority of Final Fantasy games are incredibly easy and that's honestly why the series is as popular as it is. They're just very breezy to play for the most part.

 

[GeekyDad]

I only played the original PS2 version years ago, and though I put in quite a few hours with it, I couldn't finish it. It felt like what many MMOs were doing at the time, and I just didn't enjoy that. Some things were too intense, and other things felt too passive. I did enjoy the presentation, though, considering where FF had gone in the past.

That being said, I had a ton of fun with the FFXII RTS they put out on the DS. Though it had its compromises in terms of being a full-on RTS, it was a really fun DS game.

 

[Deleted member 4262]

It's one of my favorite systems in all of gaming. I wish more games had gambits.

 

[Rutger]

Some of the best in the series. The programming layer to gambits is really satisfying and solves the problem of AI allies.

 

[Visceir]

Had more an issue with how limiting and dull the character progression was, in part due to the license board -- found a cool weapon? Sorry dude, can't equip it until you learn the license.

Most of the jobs were plain boring too with no fun active skills.

Love the story, characters and world but that aspect of the game is probably one of the worst in the series.

 

[Deleted member 56266]

Ahead of it's time. Games these days would benefit so much from a basic gambit system.

 

[Voytek]

It was okay. Not one of my favorites though.

 

[Zeal543]

100% enemy health = steal is fine. Let Vann steal once from everything in range, then just manual target and drop everything below 100% and he stops. 99% of the time it will handle it without the need to do that.

The gambit system so far seems very solid that part to me is one of the major strengths here. It just also makes the easy combat feel even easier...

Click to shrink...

The fact that you have to go out of you way to constantly attack every enemy in the area instead of focusing down one because the AI will keep stealing even if there's nothing to steal is enough for me to hate it. Moreover, you would also have to keep track of whichever enemy vaan successfully stole from and IIRC there was no indication unless you tried to steal again

 

[astro]

The fact that you have to go out of you way to constantly attack every enemy in the area instead of focusing down one because the AI will keep stealing even if there's nothing to steal is enough for me to hate it

Click to shrink...

As is said, you don't need to 99% of the time so this is really a non-issue.

Everyone set to "attack party leader's target" means as soon as you steal the enemy gets hit and will not be stolen from again.

 

[OmegaDL50]

It's basically perfect. It lets me automate all the parts that would normally just be me mashing attack anyway and I can just pay attention to micro managing specific skills as the flow of battle changes. The game was already great on PS2, the Zodiac version just makes it one of the best FFs ever made.

The vast majority of Final Fantasy games are incredibly easy and that's honestly why the series is as popular as it is. They're just very breezy to play for the most part.

Click to shrink...

This is pretty much my feel for the game as well.

One aspect of the Gambit system. Is it basically teaches the player a super basic form of programming. IF this condition happens > Do this action. As you said a lot of the busy work done in other FF games is done here. Mashing the confirm button for basic attacks. Although it does have the caveat of reducing the challenge level because you can program your party well enough to handle every single situation.

Ally - Any : Esuna for example causes immediate response to any negative status effect. Outside of curing silence status. I found this one Gambit to make carrying Antidotes and other status curing items almost pointless. The Hunts and some Boss Battles which you needed to have more direct control were nice though and added a degree of challenge in when most normal encounters were easy. I definitely enjoyed the game for sure.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

The vast majority of Final Fantasy games are incredibly easy and that's honestly why the series is as popular as it is. They're just very breezy to play for the most part.

Click to shrink...

This, to me, is a bizarrely reductive take. Do you honestly believe Final Fantasy is as popular as it is merely because they tend to be easy to play through and not at all because of the various stories, characters, and worlds people love, to say nothing of its top-class soundtracks and high-budget visuals?

Perhaps I just misinterpreted your meaning? Not trying to call you out, but this just really stuck out to me as a weird take.

 

[skeezx]

i argued for it tooth and nail back in the day but zodiac age with the fast forward thingy drove home how boring it can be

in a perfect world the gambit system would've been iterated on like 5 times already and we'd be playing FFXVIII with some super refined version of it

 

[EggmaniMN]

This, to me, is a bizarrely reductive take. Do you honestly believe Final Fantasy is as popular as it is merely because they tend to be easy to play through and not at all because of the various stories, characters, and worlds people love, to say nothing of its top-class soundtracks and high-budget visuals?

Perhaps I just misinterpreted your meaning? Not trying to call you out, but this just really stuck out to me as a weird take.

Click to shrink...

People enjoy them for that stuff too of course. The ease of getting into the games makes it easier for people to get into the stories and visuals as well. Chrono Trigger is another game that's on the same level. Very easy RPGs that just let you move through them and enjoy the characters, music and story with enough thought that they aren't mindless with some side stuff if you want to dip in deeper.

Or you can learn to speedrun the games and learn the underlying systems and really find some fun stuff but that's beyond what the average person ever needs to see.

 

[Mzril]

I went through this game recently myself (Zodiac Age) in my ongoing quest to determine solutions to the ever present modern JRPG combat system paradox of "wanting to have non-turn based combat with a party system", and "But my AI companions suck ass and I can't control all the characters at once so I feel I have little control".

And while the gambit system IS quite nice as an intermediate solution to this issue (more than something like Xenoblade 1,2 or Tales Berseria or FF7R anyway). The overarching complexity or such a setup I feel perhaps a little TOO much fat in the quest to solve this. I must have spent at least 10 hours in menus over the course of my 45hr playthrough, about half of this fiddling with gambits and license boards. Not enough APS for my taste.

So yeah my search is an ongoing struggle. So far my favorites in dealing with this are probably FF7 (AI sucks ass but you can switch active characters on the fly) and Torna the Golden Country (Swapping in place, but with refreshed cooldowns, and the AI isn't awful).

FFXII offers the most freedom and complexity when dealing with this issue of the problem space so far (Edit party during combat, gambits, manual actions for all characters), but I don't feel like the added depth is really worth it. Especially considering if you choose to play on Wait mode. Active mode is a slightly different story and honestly how I prefer to play the game, but as its own issues when because it becomes a choice of micromanaging everything VS a well thought out gambit setup, both of which takes time.

Also taking all recommendations for a ActionJRPG with party system setup that I might not have tried yet. My quest shall ever continue.

 

[MC_Leon6494]

Replaying the game with the Zodiac Age on PS4 made me enjoy the entire gambit system even more. It also made me wish I could set up proper nested if-then statements, i.e. something like "If monster is flying and if monster is lighting-vulnerable then use a lightning magic else use xx thing" like damn would that be cool to have even more nuance