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What's with all the Kataang hate/Zutara support online?

Aexact

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,255
I watched Avatar way after the fact so I missed the height of the shipping wars but yeah, it did feel like they sold Aang's investment in the relationship way more than Katara's.

But in comparison, Katara and Zuko is a barren wasteland. The show doesn't have any text to support it, only subtext. I get the appeal but the story didn't support it.
 
robot

robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,469
I suppose I counted as a Zutara shipper back in the day. One aspect I don't see brought up as often is Mai. I did not think I was supposed to take her seriously as a character for a good long while. Her and Ty Lee just read like teenage girl caricatures from opposite ends of the spectrum and I thought they were just that mixed with the villain henchman trope. I mean, how the hell were we supposed to take "I love the way you hate the world" seriously? With that in mind and seeing the inevitable heel-face turn for Zuko it made a lot more sense to think he might end up with Katara.

Then Boiling Rock happened and it was clear Mai and Ty Lee weren't just extras, but that happens real late in the show.

At the time we didn't know how things would end up and it was fun to speculate. It's more than ten years later though and Kataang is completely beyond question so I'm not sure why people are still carrying that torch. Even the poor Tokka shippers have more of a leg to stand on at this point.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
MarvelousIntent said:
This is it. The arguments against Katara and Aang basically boil down to "The virgin Aang vs the Chad Zuko".
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I mean.. that's certainly one way to interpret what I was saying? I was more commenting on my observations on how innocent/naive and morally positive characters are labeled as plain/boring/etc.. and how conflict gets read as attraction or chemistry while kindness and caring is viewed as platonic.

It just trips me out is all.
 
carlsojo

carlsojo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,769
San Francisco
When I was watching the show for the first time years ago:

I saw Aang as just a little kid with a crush that was very one-sided. They never had any real chemistry. Kinda like Annie asking Padme if she was an angel.

Zuko and Katara for one at least appeared the same age, two had more chemistry (largely due to their antagonism), three
dude took a lightning bullet for her without hesitation
.

Zuko and Mai were also a fairly boring couple that I had no investment in.
 

Avinash117

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,602
Pyccko said:
for some reason shippers really like (physically OR emotionally) abusive relationships

I don't really get it
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I mainly think its that the media doesn't really portray positive and healthy relationships in a platonic or imitate sense very often. To many, the chase is far more interesting and dynamic that includes any drama that is involved. Additionally, I think that in real life many people don't have very healthy relationships, especially young men and women. We can clearly see that young men( and many older men too) typically do not hold having compassion and kindness as a value to have and at the same to attraction is rooted in stereotypical beliefs of women and men. Aang like what another poster said, does not portray having masculine traits, however, Zuko does.
 
SuperBoss

SuperBoss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,524
While we didn't see as much of Katara's perspective as Aang's, i think her and Aang's relationship was built throughout the whole show. All the memories and bonds they shared culminated in the end, whereas Zuko always made more sense as just a friend.

Aang grew up alot during the course of the show. He had his lovable goofball side, but he kind of needed that to balance his mature side, the side that knows and feels the weight of the entire world on his shoulders. He goes into final battle heartbroken, and despite every voice telling him to kill his enemy, he still doesn't yield his morals and aspirations and finds a different solution to death for his (and the world's) enemy. He's shown to be strong, smart, and capable and I buy that Katara would absolutely be in love with him.
 
Ithil

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,377
carlsojo said:
When I was watching the show for the first time years ago:

I saw Aang as just a little kid with a crush that was very one-sided. They never had any real chemistry. Kinda like Annie asking Padme if she was an angel.

Zuko and Katara for one at least appeared the same age, two had more chemistry (largely due to their antagonism), three
dude took a lightning bullet for her without hesitation
.

Zuko and Mai were also a fairly boring couple that I had no investment in.
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"Chemistry" is a completely meaningless term in these subjects.
 

Avinash117

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,602
Jest said:
I mean.. that's certainly one way to interpret what I was saying? I was more commenting on my observations on how innocent/naive and morally positive characters are labeled as plain/boring/etc.. and how conflict gets read as attraction or chemistry while kindness and caring is viewed as platonic.

It just trips me out is all.
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I think innocence and naivete is a more desirable trait when it comes to girls and young women even if they are protagonists. A boy that is like that and is a protagonist wouldn't be considered that desirable.

I can somewhat see why morally positive characters are labeled as boring and plain, because honestly that is what we see so often as protagonists, anything outside of that is more interesting to some. I say that writers just makes a character good-hearted and don't do more than that, maybe it is difficult to make a good-hearted character more interesting? A lot of these characters tend be a way for the audience to project themselves on to.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
Avinash117 said:
I think innocence and naivete is a more desirable trait when it comes to girls and young women even if they are protagonists. A boy that is like that and is a protagonist wouldn't be considered that desirable.

I can somewhat see why morally positive characters are labeled as boring and plain, because honestly that is what we see so often as protagonists, anything outside of that is more interesting to some. I say that writers just makes a character good-hearted and don't do more than that, maybe it is difficult to make a good-hearted character more interesting? A lot of these characters tend be a way for the audience to project themselves on to.
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That's sort of my point. That there's an element of expected societal roles that comes across as an undercurrent to some of the statements that are made in these types of shipping conversations.

I have to say that morally positive or "lawful neutral" type characters are not inherently boring. Just as morally negative or "chaotic evil" characters aren't inherently boring. What makes characters interesting isn't their alignments on a spectrum of good to bad but the layers to the characters and their journey over time. I don't think there are many people that would be willing to say that Aang is a boring or flat character. His journey is a difficult one in multiple layers. But for whatever reason it seems like "good" characters in any narrative expression have to delve into grey morals or suffer to extremes before the general audience is willing to consider them complex. Like the very nature of being "good" automatically gets characters relegated to "basic" and they have to do things that aren't "good" to break out of that "basic" labeling. And I feel like that's unfortunate.
 

blackw0lf48

Member
Jan 2, 2019
2,935
I tend to feel that Zuko and Katara were a better fit than Aang. But considering that he didn't join till late and it was only a couple episodes to the end she forgive him. It also wouldn't make sense for her to shift to romantic affection so shortly after. So them hooking up is something I saw more happening after the show if she hadn't hooked up with Aang. I just don't think Aang and Katara had romantic chemistry.

Honestly I think the most realistic thing that would have happened is Katara wouldn't have been with either at the end of the show. But that she would he slowly warming up to Zuko. But obviously that wouldn't be satisfying for her not to be with either so it makes sense it went the way it did. But I think it's more realistic she wouldn't have been with either at the end of the timeline of the show, with her and Zuko maybe hooking up after.
 
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
Ithil said:
"Chemistry" is a completely meaningless term in these subjects.
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Really felt that chemistry when he....stole her dead mothers necklace and taunted her with it on top of all the times he tried to murder her with no hesitation. And that time when she threatened to murder him when he turned good. MOST of all, definitely felt chemistry during the moment where he betrayed them which got Aang, the avatar and one person who could beat the fire lord, killed. Such good chemistry.
 
Sandfox

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
Tace said:
I always feel bad for Mai in these discussions. I like her with Zuko
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The problem with supporting Zuko and Mai now is that we know they break up.

Ithil said:
"Chemistry" is a completely meaningless term in these subjects.
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It is, but you have people bringing it up to discredit people who like the ship they don't lol.

Crossing Eden said:
Really felt that chemistry when he....stole her dead mothers necklace and taunted her with it on top of all the times he tried to murder her with no hesitation. And that time when she threatened to murder him when he turned good. MOST of all, definitely felt chemistry during the moment where he betrayed them which got Aang, the avatar and one person who could beat the fire lord, killed. Such good chemistry.
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People just see that as conflict for development over the series. If you actually break it down Zuko and Katara go from enemies, to the necklace thing connecting them, to them bonding over their mothers, to Zuko betraying Katara's trust, which leads to Katara not will to trust him later on, to him winning her trust back and even willing to sacrifice himself to save her. Also, IIRC he found the necklace and didn't steal it.

Even if you dislike Zutara it comes from the characters having a well written and developed relationship. It's just a matter of some wanting it to be more.
 
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
Sandfox said:
The problem with supporting Zuko and Mai now is that we know they break up.
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Wait. WHAT?

Sandfox said:
People just see that as conflict for development over the series. If you actually break it down Zuko and Katara go from enemies, to the necklace thing connecting them, to them bonding over their mothers, to Zuko betraying Katara's trust, which leads to Katara not will to trust him later on, to him winning her trust back and even willing to sacrifice himself to save her. Also, IIRC he found the necklace and didn't steal it.

Even if you dislike Zutara it comes from the characters having a well written and developed relationship. It's just a matter of some wanting it to be more.
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I mean yea but it still would be a hella problematic romance that reinforces the idea of "fixing" men. Avatar having a party of characters where most of the relationships are platonic is one of its strongest points imo.
 
Sandfox

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
Crossing Eden said:
Wait. WHAT?


I mean yea but it still would be a hella problematic romance that reinforces the idea of "fixing" men. Avatar having a party of characters where most of the relationships are platonic is one of its strongest points imo.
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A year after the series ends Mai breaks up with Zuko because he's unwilling to confide in her and there hasn't been any additional material telling us who Zuko ended up with.
 
Sandfox

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
Omanisat said:
Yet more proof Avatar was a lightning strike and they should leave it alone.
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Personally I don't have a problem with them addressing Zuko's mom because that annoyed me(though I hate what they did in the comics), but outside that and not really having a problem with Korra existing I agree.
 
Mariachi507

Mariachi507

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,274
Crossing Eden said:
Bruh
aec4b635d03b32a05c0b03c8c21813c8.gif

SMPM.gif

tumblr_psnnp89aUG1x43jxko5_r1_400.gifv

133877591533.gif


This really was never a one sided affair. There are so many moments of romantic tension between these two, in the most cliche ways possible, that I have no idea how multiple people ITT watched this show and were like "man, Katara doesn't seem interested."
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ybixorw.gif


The whole "kiss came out of nowhere" holds weight only if you choose to ignore what built up to it.
 
Maple-Tech

Maple-Tech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
228


When Katara and Aang had a scene together, they would play a variation on this this marimba part. Ship what you want, but based on that song I always felt their relationship was inevitable
 
Aaronrules380

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,433
For many people, shipping is about pairing the character they personally identify with the most with the character they find the hottest

Girls didn't find Aang hot for obvious reasons
 
Kurtikeya

Kurtikeya

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,441
Don't forget that the show picked up on this and heavily baited the fans with it. Zutara scenes were heavily featured in the promos leading up to Season 2, which made the fans louder as the show went on and loudest when it ended and they felt like they were hoodwinked and bamboozled.
 
Aaronrules380

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,433
kaebie said:
That tweet is a made up argument that comes up time and time again in shipping 'debates' no matter the fandom. The purpose is to make those who like the rival ship seem shallow and superficial in order to undermine them. People have absolutely no basis in claiming the zutara fans all project onto Katara in the first place.

never in my life have I seen the sentiment "shippers only like zutara because they project themselves onto Zuko and Katara is hotter than Mai." Shipping is implicitly understood to be the domain of female and marginalised voices in fandom. The assumptions involved in arguing that Katara is being 'projected onto' vs Zuko or Aang, or no one at all, is where the 'logic' of that tweet falls apart and reveals the biases beneath. Some people just like certain dynamics and aren't imagining themselves in Katara's place, or they are asexual, or of a different orientation to the character(s) in question, or actually they relate to Zuko not her. Yes the tweet was a very old and not very convincing generalisation not some brilliant courageous takedown, and every time people fall for it even though it's an incredibly limited view of those fans that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. We've had multiple people in this post alone explain why they favour the alternative ship for reasons that don't boil down to fancying Zuko and are more about character and storytelling. It's a shit lazy take that's not concerned with engaging with what is, in reality, a broad spectrum of views from a diverse array of people. And that's fandom hottakes in a nutshell, really. This one didn't warrant defending.
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I'd argue the reverse doesn't happen that much in this specific instance because Zuko's character as written isn't really meant to be relatable in the same way Katara is, and that male fans would be much more likely to project themselves onto Aang or Sokka. SImilarly this is also not where Toph ships usually come from for similar reasons. I'd also argue the idea behind this concept is literally why shit like harem anime exist and why harem anime almost always have doormat personality self insert protags, so this type of phenomenon is hardly unique to women
 
nfreakct

nfreakct

Member
Oct 25, 2017
104
Sandfox said:
A year after the series ends Mai breaks up with Zuko because he's unwilling to confide in her and there hasn't been any additional material telling us who Zuko ended up with.
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It's still likely Mai and Zuko get back together based off of comments from Gene Luen Yang and visual similarities between Mai and Izumi. But who knows since there hasn't been any news about follow-up comics...
 
BDS

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
I could write an entire essay on why certain types of ships are more popular than others. The "Enemies to Lovers" trope is enormously popular because the chemistry and tension between two characters is a lot more interesting to watch than two characters who are sugary sweet with each other the entire time. It's boring and bland.
 

Oddish1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,818
In hindsight I think it's pretty easy to see why Zutara became so popular. Aang visually looks much younger than Katara which I think is a little off-putting to some people, whereas Zuko and Katara at least look similar in age. The Aang and Katara pairing was also really dull and there isn't really any conflict to it. Their characters don't really mesh in interesting ways, they just kinda get along for the most part. The only thing stopping them from getting together is Katara doesn't reciprocate his feelings but then she just does. Zuko and Katara are enemies throughout the show so a potential relationship between them is much more interesting inherently. There's a lot of potential drama and intrigue to mine from it.
 
PlayBee

PlayBee

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 8, 2017
5,533
Pairing children together is always awkward and/or cringy, especially when it's happily ever after. That tweet tho, RIP short bald guys I guess
 
Pau

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
I shipped Katara and Aang from the beginning and personally don't find Katara and Zuko ship compelling. But I agree that we don't see much of Katara's attraction aside from The Headband. I hope that's something they work on in the live-action adaptation.

I don't mind people liking different ships, but in my (limited) experience, people who ship Katara and Zuko have also hated Aang. Meanwhile I'm sitting here loving all these characters, and I wish I could share that enjoyment. ;-; I absolutely adore Aang as a protagonist. Particularly, as someone mentioned in the thread, because he has a lot of "feminine" qualities and the narrative doesn't look down on him for it.
 

Deleted member 179

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,548
Wait

Avatar is an animation with the gall to have their interests actually admit love and kiss each other

Wtf I'm watching this shit tomorrow
 
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