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IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
Well if they feel ignored by both parties then they're stupid

gonna stop you right there - much of america wallows in stagnant wages, rising debt, failed healthcare and tons of other ills created by neoliberal polices advanced by both parties in power. material gains for working class people have been marginal for so long, and the dnc is once again pushing platitudes & status quo

bluster aside, i do not think nearly half our country that doesn't vote is "stupid" for drawing these conclusions.

I think it's the aggressive memes and the amount of likes, it makes it look specifically organized. I'm not trying to dismiss issues in America, just that this shows all the traits of how the Russian bots and dodgy data firms operate.

no doubt, i'm not denying the endless waves of bots/disenegous fuckery on social media, but again half our country doesn't vote, and we're pretty polarized right now. it'd be a mistake to assume this sentiment wasn't actually popular at the moment
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,956
The same people who state they won't vote in the presidential election because they don't like the choices in candidates are the same people who don't vote in the primaries.
 

Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
Ohio
it's people who don't know and/or don't care that democrats have held a federal trifecta for like 4 years out of the last 40 (and counting Carter's micromanaging nightmare of a presidency, 8 years out of the last 52) claiming they "only want the status quo" and engaging in exhausting both-sidesism
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Voting and direct action are complementary.


Do you realize that when the government shuts down tens of thousands of people are laid off? And that when it starts back up only the government employees generally get their back pay, not contractors?

Yes, I am aware. Are you aware that tens of millions of American renters are facing eviction, as the expanded unemployment benefits have ended?
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
This isn't even an anti-voting meme, it's poking fun at the constant response to very real problems in people's material conditions by neoliberals being "just vote", since that response doesn't address the concern.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,629
I guess I can sort of get it but that's all I'm going to give it with what's on the line.
The Democrat controlled House passed the 2nd relief bill a long time ago but the Republican controlled Senate refuses to vote for it.

I guess you can not vote, it works in the Republicans favors anyway who control the Senate, the presidency, and the Supreme Court.
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,967
People instantly ranting about Russia whenever someone questions the efficacy and goals of the democratic party is beyond pathetic.
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
This isn't even an anti-voting meme, it's poking fun at the constant response to very real problems in people's material conditions by neoliberals being "just vote", since that response doesn't address the concern.

instead of acknowledging this obvious point, i'll continue to pretend that there couldn't possibly be 60k dissatisfied working-class people using twitter dot com and insist that you be more worried about russian bot farms than uhhh whatever any idiot rubes could possibly have to be upset about

mfw it's time for some game theory
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,106
gonna stop you right there - much of america wallows in stagnant wages, rising debt, failed healthcare and tons of other ills created by neoliberal polices advanced by both parties in power. material gains for working class people have been marginal for so long, and the dnc is once again pushing platitudes & status quo

This nonsense is a fundamental misunderstanding of how our coalitions and party system works. If you people continually vote more right wing then of course the left will swing toward where the consistent voters are and you'll get neoliberal policies meant to appeal and keep the party afloat. If people actually vote more left by and large then the party will move their positions that direction. Parties change over time, so it matters more what policies a party pushes now compared to what it pushed in the 90s for instance, and that's what I'm talking about. "Both parties ignore me" in relation to the COVID response is absolutely stupid. That's what I'm talking about. Now I obviously have empathy for those that have other priorities in life and can't make it out to vote due to working two jobs or child issues and feel like the concrete effects of the voting haven't trickled down to them, though I would obviously love them to do so. The last decade has been a hard one and I understand why people do feel disillusioned. 2010 was ridiculously important and guess what? People didn't vote enough, and that meant gerrymandering and a thoroughly undemocratic government for 10 fucking years.

Anyway, as I said, the parties change and there are massive differences there. One party wants to piss in your mouth and the other wants to do as much to help as possible but are hampered by the ~40-50% that vote for the piss-in-your-mouth party and the piss-in-your-mouth party curious. One party sees the things you mentioned as a problem and has some solutions that perhaps don't go as far, but the other sees them as just fucking fine.

I also wish people would just shut up with the "status quo" shit. You're not getting your full revolution, full stop. That's just not how things work. Spending your time belittling those that are far closer to you while spending no time accounting for the arsonists does you no good. The democratic platform and Joe Biden's platform would be absolutely transformative if even 80% of it went through. Is it far enough? No, but you need to stop fucking thinking that everything will be solved overnight. That's just not reality. Here in the real world making an educated vote is one of the biggest thing you can do.
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
gonna stop you right there - much of america wallows in stagnant wages, rising debt, failed healthcare and tons of other ills created by neoliberal polices advanced by both parties in power. material gains for working class people have been marginal for so long, and the dnc is once again pushing platitudes & status quo

bluster aside, i do not think nearly half our country that doesn't vote is "stupid" for drawing these conclusions.
I wouldn't use stupid but the people who refuse to engage are very ignorant to the political process if they have all these grievances and then do absolutely nothing to fix it except complain.

It's also astounding you can say the DNC is pushing status quo when they're campaigning to try and address everything you listed.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
instead of acknowledging this obvious point, i'll continue to pretend that there couldn't possibly be 60k dissatisfied working-class people using twitter dot com and insist that you be more worried about russian bot farms than uhhh whatever these idiot rubes could possibly have to be upset about

mfw it's time for some game theory
Hahahahaha pretty much yeah.
You never have to seriously examine the inadequacies of the politics of your own country if everything bad can be attributed to a foreign other.
Yup, also all the Russians have done is...fan the flames of divisions that already exist in this country, and their own contributions to those flames are a drop in the bucket. Seems like it would be better to address the root cause of divisions rather than...complain about a Russian troll farm making twitter bots.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I wouldn't use stupid but the people who refuse to engage are very ignorant to the political process if they have all these grievances and then do absolutely nothing to fix it except complain.

It's also astounding you can say the DNC is pushing status quo when they're campaigning to try and address everything you listed.
You are making a lot of assumptions about people based on them liking a meme that doesn't indicate anything about their own personal participation in politics.
 

Dodongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,462
I wouldn't use stupid but the people who refuse to engage are very ignorant to the political process if they have all these grievances and then do absolutely nothing to fix it except complain.

It's also astounding you can say the DNC is pushing status quo when they're campaigning to try and address everything you listed.
Trump put Tom Cotton and Ted Cruz on the shortlist for a Supreme Court nomination, and even now you have some morons saying Dems are the same as Republicans in regards to healthcare.
 

tjac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
906
I dont think the mentality of just vote is enough

Doesnt get tweet making fun of that mentality

its russians
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
Trump put Tom Cotton and Ted Cruz on the shortlist for a Supreme Court nomination, and even now you have some morons saying Dems are the same as Republicans in regards to healthcare.
Both parties have an inadequate response on healthcare and many other issues. One might be better than the other, but they are both not nearly enough.
 

Dodongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,462
Both parties have an inadequate response on healthcare and many other issues. One might be better than the other, but they are both not nearly enough.
That highlights the importance of voting though, doesn't it?

Stay engaged until you replace the leaders who aren't good enough. The point is to keep pushing for better representation while not giving up and ceding total control to people who will make things worse.
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
I also wish people would just shut up with the "status quo" shit. You're not getting your full revolution, full stop. That's just not how things work. Spending your time belittling those that are far closer to you while spending no time accounting for the arsonists does you no good. The democratic platform and Joe Biden's platform would be absolutely transformative if even 80% of it went through. Is it far enough? No, but you need to stop fucking thinking that everything will be solved overnight. That's just not reality. Here in the real world making an educated vote is one of the biggest thing you can do.

this type of condescending "real world" nonsense and projection is no small part of why we are where we are, and how polices & "leaders" like biden and kamala to a lesser extent got us there
but that's not a conversation for another thread. enjoy november, hope it all works out for you.


I wouldn't use stupid but the people who refuse to engage are very ignorant to the political process if they have all these grievances and then do absolutely nothing to fix it except complain.

It's also astounding you can say the DNC is pushing status quo when they're campaigning to try and address everything you listed.

they absolutely are not, and cannot in any meaningful way if we're being honest.

also strongly disagreed about anyone's ability to complain about life under late stage capitalism because they did not choose to partake in the shell game of electing their leaders approved by the ruling class
 

Wraith

Member
Jun 28, 2018
8,892
I didn't read the tweet in the OP as "don't vote" when it crossed my feed.

To the larger question, I'm equally frustrated by the hot takes of "Biden's no better than Trump, they're all the same; Biden's basically a Republican, so why vote for him; we'll get some real change in four years if he loses, think about it" and "any questions, criticism or 'helpful' suggestions regrading Biden, his campaign or platform, or any other Democrats, are all coming from Russian ops, and are purposefully working to give Trump four more years."
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
I also wish people would just shut up with the "status quo" shit. You're not getting your full revolution, full stop. That's just not how things work. Spending your time belittling those that are far closer to you while spending no time accounting for the arsonists does you no good. The democratic platform and Joe Biden's platform would be absolutely transformative if even 80% of it went through. Is it far enough? No, but you need to stop fucking thinking that everything will be solved overnight. That's just not reality. Here in the real world making an educated vote is one of the biggest thing you can do.

Meanwhile.....

Well if they feel ignored by both parties then they're stupid, because one party currently wants to do jack shit and the other passed a massive relief bill months ago. One party pushes for liability coverage for employers and capital gains tax cuts. The other wants to make sure the economy doesn't sink by helping state and local government pitfalls in funding. One party wants to applaud 200,000 dead and doing nothing during the "lockdown" time and the other wants a federal testing plan.

This is certainly helpful, especially to people like the below:

In interviews with more than a dozen Black residents in the Kenosha area, many said they were outraged over the shooting of Jacob Blake. But some said they had grown dispirited and cynical about the political system.

Bunch of rose twitter idiots who don't know any better, right? That's how it goes here? These people who have lived full lives in this hellhole country are simply uneducated rubes who can't even comprehend.

Or is the excuse, when y'all are going on your diatribes against wide swathes of powerless victims, that you aren't talking about them?
 

RocketKiss

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,691
When you have meaningful events that can help things change like the NBA strike and then Obama intervening to convince them to play because he likes basketball and then tells people to just 'Vote' ...

www.sbnation.com

How Barack Obama helped convince NBA players to end their strike and return to play

In a call with Chris Paul and LeBron James, Barack Obama urged NBA players to return to the court and resume the playoffs.

Because setting up a 'committee' would be better than actual real actions with consequences
 
Last edited:

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
also strongly disagreed about anyone's ability to complain about life under late stage capitalism because they did not choose to partake in the shell game of electing their leaders approved by the ruling class
Jesus now we're getting into the meat and potatoes of what you're posting about. How could you even call it a shell game? Would our ruling class really want someone like Trump in charge right now? Would they look at what's happening in America and be satisfied watching it burn to the ground as we speak? Fuck I would of hedged my bets on Jeb if I was part of the club.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,638
Lol if you think this is Russian bots. Not only is it a legitimate position to hold for reasons others have echoed, but also, you can easily find very large communities of people echoing this sentiment anyways.
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,839
Yes, I am aware. Are you aware that tens of millions of American renters are facing eviction, as the expanded unemployment benefits have ended?
I volunteer my time with a local housing advocacy group, and we have worked to both extend the local eviction moratorium and distribute county funds to at-risk renters. So yes, I'm aware. What's your point?
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,967
I for one am baffled that our politics keep getting more evil whenever I pick the lesser of the two evils I'm presented with. It's almost as if the bad choices I am constantly forced to make are shifting the midpoint of this country's politics, but only in one direction, like some kind of ratchet.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,106
Practically speaking if you want better healthcare then spend your time convincing those that vote for less to vote for more instead.

If you want more social safety nets then convince those that vote for less to instead vote for more.

Convincing the people that already want more to move ever so slightly closer to you doesn't really get you anywhere.

Describing both national party platforms as inadequate does a lot of cover for the side that basically wants a free for all. If one person offers me a plain cheese sandwich and another offers me fetid dog shit mixed with razor blades then calling both solutions to my hunger inadequate would be a poor characterization.


Meanwhile.....

This is certainly helpful, especially to people like the below:


Bunch of rose twitter idiots who don't know any better, right? That's how it goes here? These people who have lived full lives in this hellhole country are simply uneducated rubes who can't even comprehend.

Or is the excuse, when y'all are going on your diatribes against wide swathes of powerless victims, that you aren't talking about them?


I addressed this in my last post:

"Both parties ignore me" in relation to the COVID response is absolutely stupid. That's what I'm talking about. Now I obviously have empathy for those that have other priorities in life and can't make it out to vote due to working two jobs or child issues and feel like the concrete effects of the voting haven't trickled down to them, though I would obviously love them to do so. The last decade has been a hard one and I understand why people do feel disillusioned. 2010 was ridiculously important and guess what? People didn't vote enough, and that meant gerrymandering and a thoroughly undemocratic government for 10 fucking years.

Yes I worked things poorly in my first post because I was mores specifically talking about the parties in relation to the COVID response being the same or equivocated and yes you would have to be very misinformed to think such a think.

Being disillusioned that change won't happen isn't the same as thinking both parties are the same. Also thinking that those sorts in that article want the fall of capitalism or something is a farce, too. They want change to happen. They want progress. They want a voice in the system. They want the vote to matter more. I cannot fault them for being disillusioned with a system that is rigged against them, and as I said I understand that there are other priorities in life for some people that take massive precedence. I don't think everyone that doesn't vote is stupid. I do think that people who look at something fairly specific like this and conclude they're both the same are getting to that territory, though.

And no that doesn't mean I think Democrats are perfect. But that's also what primaries are for and local action. As I've repeatedly said throughout the thread, voting is a massive step. It's not the only step, but voting out the arsonists gets you pretty goddamned far. Convincing people that vote for the arsonists get you further, too.
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
This is the condescending garbage that "got us here."

yes, the marginal % of us leftists surely did this
not a dnc so broken it fails to learn any lessons, and parrots 04 kerry and the "anybody but bush" line no matter how hard that fails
bonus points because this time, it's the author of the 94 crime bill, last seen in the administration that pushed mass deportations and family separation

Jesus now we're getting into the meat and potatoes of what you're posting about. How could you even call it a shell game? Would our ruling class really want someone like Trump in charge right now? Would they look at what's happening in America and be satisfied watching it burn to the ground as we speak? Fuck I would of hedged my bets on Jeb if I was part of the club.

no doubt, but look at tax rates, deregulation and the like - do you not think trump does what he does because he remains an asset to them, policy wise? if you were part of the upper wealthy class, wpuld you mind the guy that works to privatize everything for your portfolio? performative bits like peter thiels recent objections, i'd say he's done pretty well by them
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
This isn't even an anti-voting meme, it's poking fun at the constant response to very real problems in people's material conditions by neoliberals being "just vote", since that response doesn't address the concern.
Yeah but it's easier to scream RUSSIAN BOTS than to engage with people who are upset with the current state of American politics.
Also on a practical level, if you are worried about people like that not voting (and I don't think people should be tbh, seriously doubt this constituency is going to win or lose the election), dismissing what they say as a nefarious spy operation is not the way to win them over.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
Jesus now we're getting into the meat and potatoes of what you're posting about. How could you even call it a shell game? Would our ruling class really want someone like Trump in charge right now? Would they look at what's happening in America and be satisfied watching it burn to the ground as we speak? Fuck I would of hedged my bets on Jeb if I was part of the club.
Actually, yes. The only notable difference between Trump and other Republicans is how downright stupid he is. People go on and on about "Trumpism" and how he's uniquely eroding our laws and norms and all that, but as far as policy goes there is no meaningful difference between him and any other Republican out there. Anyone who has a problem with Trump being in power should have a problem with any other Republican being in power. But they don't. Look at how many GOP shitheads laughed at Trump and insulted him during the campaign but then fell in line immediately when he won. It's not because he holds some special power over them. It's not because Trump is blackmailing them with secret evidence about how they're secretly gay or whatever conspiracy theory you wanna come up with. It's because they know at the end of the day he supports the exact same agenda they do. And the next Republican president after Trump is gone will also support that same shit. There's zero difference.
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
I for one am baffled that our politics keep getting more evil whenever I pick the lesser of the two evils I'm presented with. It's almost as if the bad choices I am constantly forced to make are shifting the midpoint of this country's politics, but only in one direction, like some kind of ratchet.

this season is so nauseating , can we just skip ahead to where the dnc lose and we start getting blamed, right after black women
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Yeah but it's easier to scream RUSSIAN BOTS than to engage with people who are upset with the current state of American politics.
Also on a practical level, if you are worried about people like that not voting (and I don't think people should be tbh, seriously doubt this constituency is going to win or lose the election), dismissing what they say as a nefarious spy operation is not the way to win them over.
Right, but that's the thing...they don't WANT to engage with these people. They want to write them off as politically worthless. The Russian bots thing allows them to do that.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
it's a little frustrating since it's undeniable that the trajectory is worse under one party than the other, and that America does look better than it did 20 or 50 years ago in many ways. I get that the endgame isn't on the ballot yet, but there are absolute saving graces that can be voted on now and not through a naive "I will abstain from the 2 parties and it will cause so much collateral that the left will rise up even better to fight the GOP"

the reality is, every GOP win while people choose apathy is just more voter suppression, racism, anti-LGBT laws, and environmental destruction than any other trajectory - all backed by a generation of now conservative courts.
 

Maxximo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
636
I understand the disillusion but if Trump wins these elections the whole planet is gonna suffer, so maybe do us a favor?
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
Meanwhile.....



This is certainly helpful, especially to people like the below:



Bunch of rose twitter idiots who don't know any better, right? That's how it goes here? These people who have lived full lives in this hellhole country are simply uneducated rubes who can't even comprehend.

Or is the excuse, when y'all are going on your diatribes against wide swathes of powerless victims, that you aren't talking about them?

The problems brought up in that article are a lot more complex and nuanced than a simple refusal to vote because you think it's pointless. Being disillusioned about voting and just flat out refusing to be a part of the process are different things to me. The article also makes the point that black voters played a large part in getting rid of Scott Walker which still is a huge deal for people in Wisconsin.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
Thinking all criticism of the dems is astrotufed russian bots is verging on qanon shit.

People need to take some time off the internet and realize that people who don't vote usually have a reason.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
The problems brought up in that article are a lot more complex and nuanced than a simple refusal to vote because you think it's pointless. Being disillusioned about voting and just flat out refusing to be a part of the process are different things to me. The article also makes the point that black voters played a large part in getting rid of Scott Walker which still is a huge deal for people in Wisconsin.
Yeah, disillusionment and refusal to participate are different. The meme in the OP is expressing disillusionment, not refusal to participate, so you are arguing from a false premise to begin with.

Sure, black voters were instrumental in getting rid of Walker. That didn't stop them from getting murdered in the streets by cops though.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
I volunteer my time with a local housing advocacy group, and we have worked to both extend the local eviction moratorium and distribute county funds to at-risk renters. So yes, I'm aware. What's your point?

My point is that the Democrats have failed the American people during this health and economic crisis, and the refusal to leverage funding the government, in an election year, against doing something, anything, to aid the people in dire need is typical of the gutlessness of that party.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
It's just another form of voter suppression.
Voter suppression full stop. Irresponsible and I'll informed. Bots or not.
Even if such tweets were about persuading people not to vote (and the one in the OP isn't really) it's still not voter suppression.
Voter suppression is when people want to vote but are being stopped.
That's a really weird view of democracy, and I don't think a super healthy one.

If you want everyone to vote, make it mandatory (something I'm generally for btw).
 

yogurt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,839
My point is that the Democrats have failed the American people during this health and economic crisis, and the refusal to leverage funding the government, in an election year, against doing something, anything, to aid the people in dire need is typical of the gutlessness of that party.
Democrats control one half of one branch of the federal government. And I strongly disagree that furloughing over 100,000 Americans during a severe economic crisis is a good idea.

By contrast, here in Virginia where Dems control my county and state offices they've done pretty decently. Perfectly? No. But miles better than what's happening to my friends and family in Florida.
 

Syder

The Moyes are Back in Town
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
12,543
It's gallows humour.

Don't take it too seriously, most terminally-online people will still vote and those that won't aren't a significant enough portion to affect outcomes.
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
Yeah, disillusionment and refusal to participate are different. The meme in the OP is expressing disillusionment, not refusal to participate, so you are arguing from a false premise to begin with.

Sure, black voters were instrumental in getting rid of Walker. That didn't stop them from getting murdered in the streets by cops though.
What are you even going on about? The topic is about what's with ALL of the anti-voting tweets not just the one in the OP. I didn't even reply to someone posting about the OP's example.