What's the legality of Dreams and its recreations of existing games?

[Deleted member 18944]

As you know, fan projects based in protected IP (i.e. Star Wars) go through a classic cycle of being secretly worked on, announced in the hopes of gaining support, shut down by company defending its IP, etc.

With Dreams coming out and the fact that we've seen parts of Fallout 4 recreated, Star Wars, older PlayStation titles, etc, what is the legality of these recreations within Dreams, if any?

Would this potentially fall under the same set of laws that those fan-made Star Wars games do, resulting in some of your favorite Dreams creations being taken down, or are we in a loophole of sorts?

 

[VoltySquirrel]

Don't be a narc, just be cool.

 

[TheJackdog]

I think the basic rule is gonna be they cant charge anything for them.

Im sure there will be exceptions when someone like disney's legal team wants to flex a bit

 

[MinusTydus]

I don't think Dreams is/will ever be popular enough to where copyright holders would care, as long as an entire game doesn't get posted.

 

[Poppy]

just name your character ban bolo and you're good

 

[skeezx]

was wondering this myself but too lazy to look it up

like for example if nintendo can c&d a fan project on game maker how is Dreams any different

 

[Dusk Golem]

The same legality that mods on PC recreating games or using other game models into other games are. It's a grey area, but its user made content and most turn a blind eye to it for a few complicated reasons, but more simply there's not money involved and most are beneficial for publicity of an IP than not.

I mean mods have been a thing on PC games for quite a while and many popular mods are putting content from other games in games. On Left 4 Dead for example I can play as Mario, Hatsune Miku, Darth Vader and Chris Redfield in a recreation of Crash Bandicoot with the zombies modded out and replaced with Teletubbies to a modded soundtrack by Metallica and the items replaced with items from the film Spirited Away. It's technically not very legal, but actions aren't taken because it's not a big deal to most copyright holders, it's user-made content, the content does more good than harm for the actual IP, etc.

 

[DarkFlame92]

Well that's a good question. Recreating Fallout 4 or existing games is just the tip of the iceberg. What happens when people start releasing long awaitied sequels like Half Life 3 ? This is when the game is on

 

[bsigg]

I would assume everything falls under fair use since it's being recreated and not using existing assets (i.e. ripping models from another game and placing them in this). They won't be able to charge for anything.

 

[Deleted member 18944]

I think the basic rule is gonna be they cant charge anything for them.

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Not charging for it doesn't exempt your project though. Most of the fan made games that are shut down are ones that never even make it to the point that money would be exchanging hands, let alone listed anywhere to be downloaded.

I don't think Dreams is/will ever be popular enough to where copyright holders would care, as long as an entire game doesn't get posted.

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Its level of popularity also doesn't make it exempt.

 

[Yas]

The same legality that mods on PC recreating games or using other game models into other games are. It's a grey area, but its user made content.

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Nothing grey about using copyright protected content. It's a no no, but it's just not enforced. Same would be with Dreams.

 

[Alvis]

I assume companies can send DCMAs if they want to. Fuck them tho, don't do that. Who cares.

 

[Exposure]

I'd imagine the same way companies handle fan projects using their IP currently.

So Disney will send the lawyers, other companies like EA will just go "hey can you just file off the parts actually using our IP?" and be content if you make a game that is basically Command and Conquer Renegade redux but remove all the C&C IP usage, and of course you got the rest of the companies that tend to be ok with it as long as you're not actually making money off of it.

 

[Deleted member 16657]

Had the same thought after seeing crazy shit like this.

 

[Deleted member 60185]

If you use assets ripped from another game you can pretty certainly get sued for that.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

This is a lawyer talking in depth on the discussion.

 

[HockeyBird]

I don't think most companies will care too much, not unless Sony actively promotes creations based off someone else's IPs. So you probably will never see official Twitter accounts post about a Star Wars or Mario creation.

 

[modiz]

I think MM said that they will take down a creation if the copyright holder appraoches them about it.

 

[Dusk Golem]

Nothing grey about using copyright protected content. It's a no no, but it's just not enforced. Same would be with Dreams.

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It's grey in the sense that copyright holders turn a blind eye to it almost all the time even if they're aware of it. It's because the situation around it is a bit more complex than black and white and the actual harm it's doing is very little, plus the clauses of user made content is different than corporation or commercial and there's no strict ruling to date at least for where mods and user made stuff like this falls under copyright laws. It's similar in like how making art of a copyrighted work is a bit odd under copyright law, or like fan dubs or Let's Plays, or even people who sell art of a popular character as an example (which is a very different thing, but the basic thing is it's okay unless the copyright holders decide it's not okay and send a cease and desist). It's something a bit new with the internet/video game age, and there hasn't been a strict ruling on it to date, but most IP holders aren't tremendously against it to begin with.

 

[Jessie]

I picture Dreams as play-doh. You can't DMCA someone for making art.

I guess it's more challenging legally when it's shared with other players. But there's nothing wrong with making it.

 

[Raijinto]

I think it's inevitable that something has got to give as people get more and more used to the tools and the creations look more and more like existing IPs but I don't know the legalities as such. There's already actual music and voice lines from things like Star Wars included without virtually any alterations so it's one to watch.

 

[Arklite]

Nothing will happen unless a publisher complains. Then I'd guess your creation probably just gets unshared and limited only to you.

 

[Septimus]

Yeah hopefully no one narcs and it'll be just as great as LBP.

 

[Zampano]

Had the same thought after seeing crazy shit like this.

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WTF that's crazy.

 

[Dyle]

Probably the same as anywhere, don't recreate anything 1:1 or use copyrighted assets and you'll be fine. I doubt many copyright holders will care though

 

[Yas]

It's grey in the sense that copyright holders turn a blind eye to it almost all the time even if they're aware of it. It's because the situation around it is a bit more complex than black and white and the actual harm it's doing is very little, plus the clauses of user made content is different than corporation. It's similar in like how making art of a copyrighted work is a bit odd, or even people who sell art of a popular character as an example (which is a very different thing, but the basic thing is it's okay unless the copyright holders decide it's not okay and send a cease and desist).

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It's not grey in any sense. The copyright laws are pretty uniform on these. Just because they don't enforce it doesn't make it legal. On account of actual harm, yeah that's problematic on all immaterial cases, where the rights holder has the burden to show what the actual damages are. Making derivative art work is also pretty much regulated, depending of course where the artist is located.

Selling art based on someone's else's work, is illegal and there are cases around the world where the copyright has been enforced. My favorite case was one where rights holder sued an old grandma knitting wool socks with characters and selling them.

While rights holders won't necessarily enforce these, legally speaking it is very black and white. But then again, it all depends on your local regulation. Many countries have their own flairs on the laws.

 

[Deleted member 18944]

Interesting take by a lawyer -

 

[IIFloodyII]

It's all made in Dreams with the tools available, so they could probably at most get Sony to remove stuff on grounds of copying copyrighted material, like what occasionally happens with fan art or fan games.

Edit: ^ tweets put it much better than I did.

 

[Last_colossi]

I picture Dreams as play-doh. You can't DMCA someone for making art.

I guess it's more challenging legally when it's shared with other players. But there's nothing wrong with making it.

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You can import audio into Dreams right? cause if people are importing assets from the original games and media then I imagine that would be a different conversation.

 

[Deleted member 21709]

If MM removes a Dream for copyright issues, is it still available to the creator (so they can modify and republish), or do they lose access too?

Dreams is the most exciting PlayStation release in years.

 

[Replicant]

100% legal. There is no way to profit off of any creations. MM and Sony will probably take down anything outright anyway

 

[IIFloodyII]

You can import audio into Dreams right? cause if people are importing assets from the original games and media then I imagine that would be a different conversation.

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You can record it through a mic I believe. But it's definitely the most likely part to get flagged.

 

[CRIMSON-XIII]

I want to recreate some old playstation and square enix trailers within Dreams,.

I look forward to it.

And some concept ones of games that could be.

Trying to create a SOCOM 5 or reboot, hypothetical trailer.

 

[Deleted member 18944]

100% legal. There is no way to profit off of any creations. MM and Sony will probably take down anything outright anyway

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Guys, you don't need to be selling these things in order for them to be infringing on copyright. This is specifically why I'm highlighting Star Wars projects in the OP. None of those games were ever on sale, let alone made it to a point where they could be sold because they were C&D'd before they were completed.

 

[Deleted member 437]

Nintendo seems to have the hardest stance on the stuff. So we'll see.

 

[Richter1887]

If MM removes a Dream for copyright issues, is it still available to the creator (so they can modify and republish), or do they lose access too?

Dreams is the most exciting PlayStation release in years.

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I remember hearing the dream doesn't get deleted. More likely it would be delisted from the servers so nobody can see it other than the creator.

If this is true then I would guess people can remove the licensed stuff and rerelease it.

 

[Deleted member 63478]

I hope they just watch from a fair distance.

 

[Deleted member 1003]

I think Dreams could be fine only in this regard, the projects are only available in Dreams. Some of those fan projects that were shut down would have been distributed through other channels, regardless of being free. Basically it could give the perception that a fan made game using Nintendo assets could be seen as a Nintendo project. The quality of the fan made project could reflect poorly on Nintendo and its reputation.

Since the Dreams projects seem to be isolated to Dreams and not available to play separately outside of Dreams then it could be fine.

 

[Ojli]

Unsure if this is the latest updated EULA, but this might answer some question marks

Spoiler: 4. USER GENERATED CONTENT

4. USER GENERATED CONTENT. You may have the option to create content such as pictures, photographs, renderings, videos, animation, sounds, music, game play, game related materials, or other information ("User Material") through the Software. To the extent permitted by law, you grant SIE an irrevocable, transferrable, sublicensable, royalty-free and perpetual license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, display, perform, translate, transmit, publish, and prepare derivative works of your User Material in all media formats and by all distribution methods (now known or hereafter developed), throughout the universe, in connection with the Software and the business of SIE (and its partners, successors, and affiliates), for any purpose, including for promoting, advertising, selling, and re-distributing the Software (and derivative works thereof), without any further notice to you. In addition, you grant each user of the Software a non-exclusive, perpetual license to access your User Material through the Software consistent with your share and privacy settings, and to use, reproduce, distribute, display, perform, translate, transmit, publish, and prepare derivative works of your User Material as permitted by the functionality of the Software and PlayStation Network (subject to the terms of this agreement). No compensation will be paid to you or any third party with respect to the use of your User Material, as provided herein. You acknowledge that you have received good and valuable consideration from SIE for the license of the rights in your User Material. You hereby waive, to the extent permitted by law, all claims, including any moral or patrimonial rights, against SIE and its affiliates or any third party's use of the User Material. By creating, posting, streaming, transmitting or providing SIE any User Material, you represent and warrant that your User Material does not infringe on the intellectual property or other rights of any third party and is not obscene, defamatory, offensive or an advertisement or solicitation of business and you have the appropriate rights to use, create, post, distribute, transmit and provide User Material and to grant SIE the foregoing license. You must cooperate with SIE in resolving any dispute that may arise from your User Material.

Source: https://www.playstation.com/en-us/legal/dreams-ea-eula/

 

[HighspeedRefleX]

Had the same thought after seeing crazy shit like this.

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a 3D sonic made by hundreds of devs will have a lot of added details over this and hopefully play better with that many people involved. For what it's worth this is impressive and all the islands you can see are a nice touch.

 

[ActWan]

I think MM said that they will take down a creation if the copyright holder appraoches them about it.

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This. Not much else to discuss.

 

[Gnorman]

I can see Disney and Nintendo taking a hard stance but the vast majority of creations will be left alone.

 

[Deleted member 49438]

This is a lawyer talking in depth on the discussion.

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Thank you for posting this. Very informative, especially since it goes back to look at how Media Molecule handled similar situations with Litte Big Planet. Seems like Sony & MM should be safe from liability, and most likely the worst we'll see is some IP holders asking for representations of their games taken down.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

I'm sure if a company requests, Sony / Mm would have to take certain content down from Dreams servers but it's not like games made in Dreams are being sold for money, so in most cases, it will probably be ignored.

 

[Syriel]

As you know, fan projects based in protected IP (i.e. Star Wars) go through a classic cycle of being secretly worked on, announced in the hopes of gaining support, shut down by company defending its IP, etc.

With Dreams coming out and the fact that we've seen parts of Fallout 4 recreated, Star Wars, older PlayStation titles, etc, what is the legality of these recreations within Dreams, if any?

Would this potentially fall under the same set of laws that those fan-made Star Wars games do, resulting in some of your favorite Dreams creations being taken down, or are we in a loophole of sorts?

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Legality of recreating a game = none. Obvious fair use exceptions like parody apply.

Loophole = none.

It's technically not very legal, but actions aren't taken because it's not a big deal to most copyright holders, it's user-made content, the content does more good than harm for the actual IP, etc.

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This is the most accurate. The action isn't legal without permission, but most rights holders will weigh cost of enforcement.

I would assume everything falls under fair use since it's being recreated and not using existing assets (i.e. ripping models from another game and placing them in this). They won't be able to charge for anything.

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This take is incorrect.

I picture Dreams as play-doh. You can't DMCA someone for making art.

I guess it's more challenging legally when it's shared with other players. But there's nothing wrong with making it.

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You can't clone something and call it art. A reproduction is still a copyright violation, regardless of the tools used to make it.

100% legal.

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100% wrong.

 

[Deleted member 45414]

I remember hearing the dream doesn't get deleted. More likely it would be delisted from the servers so nobody can see it other than the creator.

If this is true then I would guess people can remove the licensed stuff and rerelease it.

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This is true, can also happen with other things that are in conflict with their content policies (like nudity to some extent)

 

[bsigg]

This take is incorrect

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This take is incredibly snarky.

 

[wildbite]

As long as all the assets are created brand new, wouldn't it be the same as fan art?

 

[Menx64]

Nintendo seems to have the hardest stance on the stuff. So we'll see.

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Disney is the biggest player here. If an star wars mod gets to much attention, I can see them going after MM.

 

[Trick_GSF]

I guess as no one is/can charge money for their Dreams, anyone demanding creations removed would come off looking like the grumpy bad guy. Especially as Dreams comes off as very wholesome and positive. For example, Bethesda wouldn't take any action against that Fallout 4 creation as is. It's when the entire Fallout 4 is released as a creation things might change a bit lmao. It'll be really interesting to see how things go in the future. I am new to Dreams to be honest with you and I'm completely in awe of the possibilities and what might come in the future. How publishers, etc react will be fascinating because I it's obvious groups will try to recreate full games using Dreams.