-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
What's Something The Amazing Spider-Man Movies Did Better Than the Other Spider-Man Movies?
- Thread starter Deleted member 4034
- Start date
His interactions with random civilians are really good in the ASM movies. Raimi had him be too deified for my liking. That "wait, you made this?" scene from ASM2 I think it was, is fantastic.
A poor substitute from how the comics handled it.
I don't agree.
I really don't think you need MJ around to effectively show how much Gwen meant to Peter. Quite the contrary, I think it's best that MJ don't come into the picture until afterwards.
For all intents and purposes, the above is just completely unnecessary.
I couldn't agree more. This is the only scene in any cape-movie that hit me emotionally at all.
I wish I was brave as that little kid.
I like when his fingers stuck to the keyboard keys. That was a fun gag.
I like the cgi ripples in his suit when flying through the air.
I like the cgi ripples in his suit when flying through the air.
I liked TASM1 more than Homecoming, sue me.
-Gwen and Peter were good as hell
-Actually spot on Spider-Man quips
-good Spider-Man saves Queens and stops crime scenes
-Good cinematography and score
TASM2 fell apart quick tho and Sony trying to build to Sinister 6 was awfullllll. First one was some fun though, far from perfect but fun. Homecoming just felt super predictable and having a Spider-Man movie injected with a ton of phoned in Tony Stark junk just ruined it for me
-Gwen and Peter were good as hell
-Actually spot on Spider-Man quips
-good Spider-Man saves Queens and stops crime scenes
-Good cinematography and score
TASM2 fell apart quick tho and Sony trying to build to Sinister 6 was awfullllll. First one was some fun though, far from perfect but fun. Homecoming just felt super predictable and having a Spider-Man movie injected with a ton of phoned in Tony Stark junk just ruined it for me
I think you do need MJ for Gwen's death. Because this was a story line that played out over years. Gwen's death had just as big an impact on MJ as it had on Peter. People forget that MJ was presented as just a flighty party girl before this moment.
This was THE moment, but it wasn't the only moment. In the issues that followed, MJ was almost always around Peter. Because both of their lives were collapsing around them. Harry fell off the wagon. Flash had PTSD. Gwen was dead.
We didn't get any of that in the movie. We got a sad montage, and Peter watching Gwen's creepy as hell graduation speech where she had "I am going to die" tattooed on her forehead.
A poor substitute from how the comics handled it.
This is cool development for MJ, but not necessary for Peter.
Gwen's death, stupid foreshadowing aside, was great. Also forgot about the little kid. Really hits home with the Spiderverse, "You can wear the mask" message.
It had some pretty good action, web slinging looked really good. The quips were pretty good as well.
Basically, when Spider-Man was fighting baddies, the movie suddenly turned from bad or mediocre to kinda good.
Basically, when Spider-Man was fighting baddies, the movie suddenly turned from bad or mediocre to kinda good.
The suit was fine, the casting was fine, it had some real non-cgi swinging scenes, there is a scene with Spidey wearing a fireman's hat, and it lead to this SNL sketch:
Peter's development didn't come over the course of the one page epilogue at the end of Gwen's death. They spent years on him getting over it and moving on.
(The actual end was supposed to be the end of the Clone Saga when Peter realizes he loves Mary Jane.)
(Later writers may have tried to pull back for drama, but this was supposed to be the end of Peter x Gwen.)
Emma Stone was miscast as Gwen. She should have been Silk.
(Let's just... ignore the fact that Silk didn't exist when they made the first ASM movie, lol.)
The costumes were great? I guess? I can't think of anything super positive from the ASM movies. They were quite bad.
I don't think MJ matters for this storyline to be told, beyond the tasteless idea that this is what gives her more depth as a character.
The truth is, MJ always had that depth, and Peter was wildly off base with his perspective of her. The comics just used Gwen's death as an excuse to finally show that other side of her to Peter and readers, but you don't need to be told by the books that it's fucked up of Peter to accuse her of not giving a shit about anybody just because she's got more of a social life than he does.
I've always fucking hated that portrayal of her. Its gross, and its why I'm glad the MCU series (and the Amazing series before it) is taking cues from the Ultimate version of MJ, which I've always considered her superior portrayal.
As is, Gwen's death should mostly just be about her relationship with Peter, not Peter's relationship with her and some other girl. And the Amazing series excelled at fleshing out their relationship and shooting a heartbreaking death scene for her that culminated in Peter losing the will to go on before being given an emotional speech from Aunt May that encouraged him to get back into it. And the way the city rallies around him when he reappears is triumphant as hell.
"But MJ wasn't there" doesn't detract from any of that.
OMG, in the school hallway, when he's crawling over dude's body like an actual spider?
Fucking awesome.
I literally was in awe the first time I saw it. That's the closest representation of what I've always wanted to see from a Spider-Man Film
Yep it's so fucking good. Exactly how I imagine Spider-man would move
These movies didn't understand what the Peter x Gwen ship was about in the first place. Gwen loved Peter, but she hated Spider-Man. The whole point was it was an inversion of the classic Clark Kent/Superman/Lois Lane triangle (where Lois loved Superman, but wasn't so wild about Clark).
In the movies, they replaced this with "Gwen's going to die!!!" That was it. There was no real drama in their relationship. There was no real anything. Garfield and Stone just did a good job making googly eyes at each other for a few minutes out of a couple of two hour movies. So much so that people don't even seem to remember that the relationship was as terribly written as everything else in those movies.
As far as MJ, she wasn't intended to be a deep character. She was intended to be a sort of spoiler character meant to upend Peter's life every once in a while. Peter's early assessment of her was "that chick's as pretty as a pumpkin seed, but just about as shallow." (ASM Vol. 1 #45.)
That was the original intention. She was presented as flighty. Aunt May, who had been seriously pushing for Peter x MJ, was presented as a senile old fool, and trying to push for Peter x MJ was a reflection of that. (Both characters have received a fair amount of depth over the years that play off each other very well, but that was definitely not the original intention.)
You can make the argument that these elements needed to be changed. That the movies could not do this. And I think that's a fair argument to make. But those movies didn't replace these elements with anything the least bit interesting. Any kind of drama in Peter x Gwen was replaced with foreshadowing about Gwen's death. And Aunt May didn't do much of anything.
(That scene in the second one where May says Peter is her boy, and Peter still goes on about Richard. I have never wanted to see a character get slapped so hard as I wanted Peter to get slapped in that moment.)
The movies decided to write Gwen as hating the idea that Peter's life as Spider-Man should mean their relationship was dependent on his terms and how close he feels he can get with her in any given moment.
It's different from the comics, but not wildly so, and I find it to be much more modern and palatable. She's given enough agency to be let in on her boyfriend's secret heroics and refuses to be confined to the sidelines since she can help him.
And it results in her dying.
It's not a matter of not understanding the character, they just (correctly) decided that spending a ton of time on her not being trusted with his secret and hating the webslinger like everyone else was melodrama that the story would be better suited without.
And if you find yourself agreeing with Peter's initial assessment of MJ, yikes. That's not supposed to be something you want to identify with, especially in hindsight.
MJ was never shallow, Peter just never bothered to examine her beyond the surface level. That's an indictment on Peter Parker, not Mary Jane. And it's why nobody in their right mind would want to write him that way in the year of our Lord 2019. It's gross.
Gwen didn't listen to Peter and got killed.
I'm not agreeing with Peter's assessment of MJ. I'm saying that was the original intention with the character. It was later creators (including Stan himself) who gave MJ more depth. (Although the person we should really be crediting on that front is Gerry Conway. And, ironically enough, Roger Stern, who was never the biggest Peter x MJ shipper, to put it mildly.)
No adaptation of Spider-Man in this day and age ever presents MJ as this shallow. I honestly don't think you could (and definitely don't think you should).
I know she didn't listen to him and was killed. Your point?
If you get that MJ shouldn't be presented as that shallow, why are you arguing that she needed to be present in the story so that she could grow from being that shallow?
It's a played out version of the character that nobody is interested in seeing, and that's largely the only role she can play in that role that would result in people demanding she take part in it.
My point is that the movies didn't replace the Peter/Spider-Man/Gwen triangle with anything interesting. They removed all tension and drama from the relationship to foreshadow Gwen's death. And they didn't even do that right. Gwen's agency ends up getting her killed. "If she had just listened to her boyfriend, she would have been alright" was the message being sent.
As far as MJ, and what her role should have been in these hypothetical movies, the answer is "Peter's friend". But I'm not here to rewrite a 7 year old movie or its sequel from 5 years ago that already got a reboot.
Like what many already said, the ASM2 suit is great. Very early-90s McFarlane/Larson/Capcom-inspired look with the bug eyes.
He SELECTED his webbing options from a menu, not very dissimilar from the myriad of Stark tech options his suit had in Homecoming. He didn't invent anything in FFH.
The relationship was fraught with tension. And if you walked away from ASM2 thinking the point of her death was "she should've listened to Peter", I'm not sure where else to go here with you, especially if we're gonna insist a beautifully written plot point was moot because Peter didn't have another friend around yet lol
Yeah, that's not what happened.
If you're gonna insist he is less of an inventor because he used Tony's lab to make his own toys, who do you consider an inventor in 2019, when everyone is using tools that have been around for years?
This is being intentionally obtuse to force a point that isn't there to be made.
He stalked her. He admitted to stalking her. She found it charming.
Do I really need to bring up how problematic Peter x Gwen was in those movies?
That was definitely kinda problematic, but it's not a counter to anything else I've said. No one said their relationship was perfect to a T, just that it was largely pretty wonderfully portrayed. You're the only one obsessed with proving...well, I'm not sure what your angle is here.
That the relationship was as terribly written as everything else in those movies, and the only reason people like anything about it is because of Emma Stone.
If that's what you wanna believe, don't let me stop you. You don't need my permission lol
But you recognize the relationship was problematic.
(It's okay to admit that I may have a point, lol.)
One single aspect of the relationship was problematic. I admitted as much above. I told you you had a point there.
That's not a counter to anything else I've had to say about the relationship.
What are we even doing here?
Talking about terrible Spider-Man movies that underperformed over five years ago and were rebooted.
You know, the whole point of the internet, lol.
Don't be obtuse.
If this was just about getting me to say one of your half a dozen points was valid, you've got your validation.
The whole point of Gwen dying after not listening to Peter was to absolve him of any actual guilt in her death. She chose to be there. He told her not to go. He even restrained her with webbing. She still showed up and got herself killed.
I really don't see how anyone can think this is a healthy relationship in the slightest, or why anyone would enjoy it if not for Emma Stone?
The thing is, that scene just wasn't about Peter. It was about MJ as well. Up until that point, MJ was shown to be more of a self centered socialite without a care in the world. Peter says as much in the scene itself.
The end of the scene, where she doesn't leave his side isn't just about her consoling a grieving Peter, but her growing as a character/person. She's not a self centered socialite. She never has been, it's just we've only seen that part of her up until this point. There's more to Mary Jane Watson than meets the eye, and we start to see more of that going forward.
Her relationship with Peter begins to grow naturally from there. Something the Raimi movies really failed to capture, as much as I enjoy those films, and something the ASM movies ignored completely. They wanted the shock value of Gwen's death, but completely ignored the drama and the ramifications on Peter's life beyond "I'm so sad my gf is dead." Not having MJ as a presence in the ASM series was a mistake.
If they cared at all, they'd have had both Gwen and MJ in ASM1, building up friendships with Pete, while he's in love with Gwen. Continue Gwen and Pete's relationship in ASM 2, while cementing MJ as a good friend.
Then, in ASM3, play out the Goblin storyline and Gwen's death, but cap it with a similar scene between Pete and MJ at the end, where it's implied that a potential romance is going to bud, but it doesn't have to be blatantly spelled out for the audience. Let Gwen's death be felt still in the end credits. A fourth film wouldn't really be necessary, but if there was, you could then really pay off Peter and MJ's relationship, and then growing into destined lovers/soulmates or what have you.
Yeah, we can just be done here, bruh. Cause, holy shit, is this a take.
I expressed why the idea that MJ was just some empty-headed socialite is gross as hell above. Nobody is adapting that portion of her story today, which is a huge part of the reason later versions of her tend to lean into her Ultimate incarnation.
It's a black mark on Peter's past that he felt justified in saying as much to her, and the entire idea is best left in the fucking garbage. Because that's what it is.
MJ is completely unnecessary in a story about the death of Gwen Stacy, comics or otherwise. There are ways to have her grow close to Peter that don't involve that story or her being portrayed as a fucking airhead that sees the "errors of her ways" after some dickhead erroneously disrespects her. And the notion that the writers "didn't care at all" because they went a different route than you wanted them to, while still going to great lengths to make it a heartbreaking story is beyond entitled.
Peter x Gwen, as presented in these movies, is fucked up. And I honestly don't understand how more people don't see it.
Did you watch The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon? Because they had a pretty good take on MJ, and the whole Peter x Gwen relationship.
You mean the cartoon where MJ's character is developed long before Gwen up and dies? Where it's clear to the viewers that the brief moments of Peter trying to put her in some "she's just a loose party girl" box are black marks on Peter's character, because she's already clearly a well-developed character with agency of her own that isn't dependent on her relationship to some guy or his recently murdered girlfriend?
That the version of the character you're referring to?
MJ is completely unnecessary to the larger story of Peter's relationship with Gwen. Full stop.