What went wrong with Chris Claremont’s X-Men Forever series?

[Uzumaki Goku]

This was supposedly what he would've done had he not left the book after 1991 and to start things off, he permanently kills off Wolverine and in this book, Claremont rooks glee in the fact that he can kill off characters and have them stay dead….

but it doesn't seem like it was well received and it was abruptly cancelled due to low sales.

so what went wrong?

 

[Slayven]

what he would've done had he not left the book after 1991

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You answered your own question. Sometimes it best someone else takes over

 

[Uzumaki Goku]

You answered your own question. Sometimes it best someone else takes over

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he had something very different planned for Wolverine.

 

[deimosmasque]

Honestly as a huge Claremont mark, it just wasn't that strong and the kid Storm vs Adult Storm stuff just didn't work.

 

[TAJ]

The concept was appealing, but he immediately made it clear that the concept was a lie.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

Too little too late. And as much as I love Claremont's run, and I wasn't very happy about how established writers including Chris were pushed out of most books line wide to give a handful of artists control (though it hit them in the ass and they got what they deserved when those same artists bolted to form image leaving Marvel with not much talent and soon becoming one of the worst era of their comics) the fact is Claremonts tenure on the book was already pretty long in the tooth and if he wasn't spinning wheels in the Australia era already, he definitely was for everything after.

 

[Slayven]

The man lies to you every time, when will folks stop believing him

 

[CaptainKashup]

Wolverine seems pretty healthy for a guy who got perma'd

 

[Rydeen]

The John Byrne "bootleg" X-Men books he's doing on his own that continues where he left the X-Men during the Dark Phoenix Saga are way more appealing and more "classic" X-Men action than what Claremont did with 'X-Men Forever', I recommend checking that out. Starts making me question who was the talent that made the books actually appealing in their heyday.

 

[Weiss]

It's a few things.

- As enshrined as Claremont is by X-Men diehards, the idea of giving an entire universe to an old writer for him to play with (and this writer not being Alan Moore) is a tall order. It's contingent on a very specific nostalgia where it's hard to find an audience whose needs aren't being met by existing books (see the tragically short lived X-Men '92).

- Claremont coming back to do his old ideas means that you're not seeing these characters as they eventually became. Cable's not Cyclops' time traveling son and that's a big part of the appeal for Cable fans, even if Claremont's backstory for Mr. Sinister absolutely needs to be canonized because it's a million times better than what we've got.

- Furthermore, some of Claremont's intended ideas were later done by other writers. Wolverine getting brainwashed into a Hand assassin didn't happen, but it did through Hydra.

- Lastly, the idea of a "what if the original writer stayed on" run has a limited shelf life, so Claremont started coming up with whatever the hell he wanted for his playground. Tony Stark is related to Bolivar Trask! Jean is evil and hooks up with Beast! Storm gets cloned! Rogue and Nightcrawler switch powers! Black Panther fucking dies! Once this stuff started happening it's clear that the original pitch of X-Men Forever, Claremont's big return from right where he left off, wasn't happening.

Claremont's X-Men existed in a living, ongoing universe shaped and molded by outside factors as much as his own. He kinda needed that cage to really write his best stuff, and ultimately X-Men Forever was giving him too much freedom with zero focus.

Anyway just read his and Todd Nauck's 2014 Nightcrawler comic because that run actually fucks.

 

[Shola Akinnuso]

I consider myself a self-proclaimed former Claremont expert. Several reasons here. 1. Too late. They broke his rhythm, years passed, he wasn't the same writer. 2. MOST IMPORTANTLY - Chris didn't do it alone. For years, people gave him the lion's share of the credit, but Chris alone really isn't that great of a writer or plotter. Chris, working in the Marvel collab with a strong artist/ co-plotter to work through ideas and a strong editor is GOLD. Even more than the artist, though (and the EXCELLENT MARVEL DOCUMENTARY SERIES on DISNEY+ makes VERY CLEAR), the real stars of X-Men were Ann Nocenti, Louise Simonson, and even Jim Shooter to an extent. Chris has *ALWAYS* surrounded himself with a PHENOM team. It can be argued that the absolute best stories of X-Men were the collaborative effort of this team and not just Chris. Yes, Chris had long-term plotting and characterized the team like nobody in the history of comics outside of MAYBE Wolfman's Teen Titans, but yeah...whenever Chris goes it alone, it's just not good. That's a fact. His novels were bad. His Wildstorm stuff was bad. His run as Editorial director in the early 00's was bad.

When you look at Claremont's collaborators doing their own projects, however, they often ranged from decent to pretty good. Even Byrne's Next Men. Claremont never got that 'spark' back because he couldn't. Also, when you add the element of TIME between when he abruptly ended and when he returned, he was crazy rusty and all of his writing quirks stood out sorely. A lot of his old plot contrivances were played out. I mean, how many times can you lean on the 'Shadow King'? How many 'Body and Soul', and " The more things change" and all of the other Claremont-isms does it take before people started to tire of them? Personally, when I realized that Chris Claremont was ripping my favorite sci-fi writer, Octavia Butler? I was done. DONE.

I ADORE that run of comics. My favorite are the Claremont/ Silvestri years. I literally DROPPED X-Men the issue he left. I was elated when he came back THE FIRST time. But bad is bad. He lost it.

 

[Uzumaki Goku]

It's a few things.

- As enshrined as Claremont is by X-Men diehards, the idea of giving an entire universe to an old writer for him to play with (and this writer not being Alan Moore) is a tall order. It's contingent on a very specific nostalgia where it's hard to find an audience whose needs aren't being met by existing books (see the tragically short lived X-Men '92).

- Claremont coming back to do his old ideas means that you're not seeing these characters as they eventually became. Cable's not Cyclops' time traveling son and that's a big part of the appeal for Cable fans, even if Claremont's backstory for Mr. Sinister absolutely needs to be canonized because it's a million times better than what we've got.

- Furthermore, some of Claremont's intended ideas were later done by other writers. Wolverine getting brainwashed into a Hand assassin didn't happen, but it did through Hydra.

- Lastly, the idea of a "what if the original writer stayed on" run has a limited shelf life, so Claremont started coming up with whatever the hell he wanted for his playground. Tony Stark is related to Bolivar Trask! Jean is evil and hooks up with Beast! Storm gets cloned! Rogue and Nightcrawler switch powers! Black Panther fucking dies! Once this stuff started happening it's clear that the original pitch of X-Men Forever, Claremont's big return from right where he left off, wasn't happening.

Claremont's X-Men existed in a living, ongoing universe shaped and molded by outside factors as much as his own. He kinda needed that cage to really write his best stuff, and ultimately X-Men Forever was giving him too much freedom with zero focus.

Anyway just read his and Todd Nauck's 2014 Nightcrawler comic because that run actually fucks.

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I think he killed off Tony Stark too?

 

[Weiss]

I think he killed off Tony Stark too?

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He did in fact also kill off Tony Stark.

 

[Uzumaki Goku]

He did in fact also kill off Tony Stark.

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I highly doubt any editor at the time would've allowed him to do that.

 

[deimosmasque]

And that's the other problem actually. He knows it's not "canon" to the main lines so he throws in shock deaths.

 

[KtotheRoc]

I highly doubt any editor at the time would've allowed him to do that.

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It's an AU so it doesn't really matter.

 

[TAJ]

Wolverine seems pretty healthy for a guy who got perma'd

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It was an alternative universe, What If... thing.
Wolverine has the fight-your-way-out-of-Hell perk. He can't be killed permanently. That's ignoring Krakoa resurrection, which I consider true death anyway.
Not that it matters anyway. Almost everyone in the Marvel multi-verse is just a facsimile of their pre-Secret Wars self, all Wolverines included.

 

[Pluto]

Claremont was too far up his own ass, as much as I love his 80s X-Men none of his returns in the 2000s were good. He has this "only my X-Men matter and everything else is stupid" attitude.

 

[TAJ]

Marvel was going to let you kill Tony Stark in an X-Men book? I believe you, Chris. /awkwardwink

The John Byrne "bootleg" X-Men books he's doing on his own that continues where he left the X-Men during the Dark Phoenix Saga are way more appealing and more "classic" X-Men action than what Claremont did with 'X-Men Forever', I recommend checking that out. Starts making me question who was the talent that made the books actually appealing in their heyday.

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Ok, I'm only a few seconds in and these books are bullshit, too. Jean Grey was never going to be allowed to live. At best those are "What if Claremont wasn't involved AND I had no editors?". That doesn't interest me. What could have been... now that interests me and no one is giving it to me.

Claremont was too far up his own ass, as much as I love his 80s X-Men none of his returns in the 2000s were good. He has this "only my X-Men matter and everything else is stupid" attitude.

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He was miles up his own ass, and judging by his X-Men writing from this year, he still is.

 

[Weiss]

Marvel was going to let you kill Tony Stark in an X-Men book? I believe you, Chris. /awkwardwink


Ok, I'm only a few seconds in and these books are bullshit, too. Jean Grey was never going to be allowed to live. At best those are "What if Claremont wasn't involved AND I had no editors?". That doesn't interest me. What could have been... now that interests me and no one is giving it to me.



He was miles up his own ass, and judging by his X-Men writing from this year, he still is.

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Well, no, that part is actually true. There was even a special Director's Cut of DPS with the planned ending where Jean is lobomotized.

What happened is that Dark Phoenix Saga was supposed to end with Jean being completely fine and back on the X-Men, but then John Byrne threw in the destruction of that alien planet. Now Jean was guilty of mass extinction so Jim Shooter refused to allow her to get away with it and proposed sending her off to a prison planet, which Claremont countered by saying that the X-Men would never stop trying to free her. John Byrne's idea was to lobotomize her and reduce her intellect to a child's (side note: John Byrne is an extremely, extremely creepy person on top of being a transphobic asshole), and eventually Claremont just shouted that he'd kill her and Jim Shooter signed off on it.

Then five years later Claremont finds out Jean is getting revived and Cyclops' marriage is getting destroyed to make X-Factor, and the rest is history.

 

[TAJ]

Then five years later Claremont finds out Jean is getting revived and Cyclops' marriage is getting destroyed to make X-Factor, and the rest is history.

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Claremont certainly had a talent for throwing fucked-up editorial decisions in the editors' faces.

 

[Weiss]

Claremont certainly had a talent for throwing fucked-up editorial decisions in the editors' faces.

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That wasn't his call either. He was told over dinner with a colleague that Jean was coming back without his input, and he had retired Cyclops as an active member of the team to live with Madelyne Pryor but since we needed him back for X-Factor he's now permanently known as the guy who abandoned his wife and child in Alaska to go see his old girlfriend.

Claremont did try to work around it, though. X-Factor was going to be about the O5 so some of his ideas were for Jean's sister Sara to take her place, or for Dazzler or Psylocke to take her role (the former even got far enough to be hinted in a comic). No dice, though.

 

[FnordChan]

The John Byrne "bootleg" X-Men books he's doing on his own that continues where he left the X-Men during the Dark Phoenix Saga are way more appealing and more "classic" X-Men action than what Claremont did with 'X-Men Forever', I recommend checking that out. Starts making me question who was the talent that made the books actually appealing in their heyday.

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I enthusiastically second this. Byrne's fanfic comic X-Men: Elsewhen has been super entertaining and feels like a return directly to where he left off in tone and style. He's partway through issue 23 at this point and it's just been delightful to follow. Hell, with inking and coloring this would be ready to publish officially as a similar riff to Byrne's X-Men: The Hidden Years and would probably do pretty well given how steadily reprints of the Claremont era seem to sell. It's available to read here on Byrne's forum.

 

[Nakho]

The John Byrne "bootleg" X-Men books he's doing on his own that continues where he left the X-Men during the Dark Phoenix Saga are way more appealing and more "classic" X-Men action than what Claremont did with 'X-Men Forever', I recommend checking that out. Starts making me question who was the talent that made the books actually appealing in their heyday.

Click to shrink...

I can't agree with that. As someone who thinks Dark Phoenix Saga is the best thing ever, Claremont had a lot (a LOT) of incredible stories after John Byrne left. Brood Saga, Lifedeath I and II, Wounded Wolf, Wolverine miniseries, God Loves Man Kills, Asgardian Wars, Mutant Massacre, Inferno... Storm and Kitty Pride's character developments was all after him, for example. Not to mention the whole of New Mutants, which is consistently amazing from the Demon Bear Saga until he leaves.

Byrne, in fact, fucked up a lot of X-Men related storylines afterwards: Jean in a cocoon and Phoenix being a copy of her, Magneto being a villain again, etc.

I'm not saying post-2000s Claremont isn't pretty shit, because he is. What the hell was that New Mutants Forever...

I consider myself a self-proclaimed former Claremont expert. Several reasons here. 1. Too late. They broke his rhythm, years passed, he wasn't the same writer. 2. MOST IMPORTANTLY - Chris didn't do it alone. For years, people gave him the lion's share of the credit, but Chris alone really isn't that great of a writer or plotter. Chris, working in the Marvel collab with a strong artist/ co-plotter to work through ideas and a strong editor is GOLD. Even more than the artist, though (and the EXCELLENT MARVEL DOCUMENTARY SERIES on DISNEY+ makes VERY CLEAR), the real stars of X-Men were Ann Nocenti, Louise Simonson, and even Jim Shooter to an extent. Chris has *ALWAYS* surrounded himself with a PHENOM team. It can be argued that the absolute best stories of X-Men were the collaborative effort of this team and not just Chris. Yes, Chris had long-term plotting and characterized the team like nobody in the history of comics outside of MAYBE Wolfman's Teen Titans, but yeah...whenever Chris goes it alone, it's just not good. That's a fact. His novels were bad. His Wildstorm stuff was bad. His run as Editorial director in the early 00's was bad.

When you look at Claremont's collaborators doing their own projects, however, they often ranged from decent to pretty good. Even Byrne's Next Men. Claremont never got that 'spark' back because he couldn't. Also, when you add the element of TIME between when he abruptly ended and when he returned, he was crazy rusty and all of his writing quirks stood out sorely. A lot of his old plot contrivances were played out. I mean, how many times can you lean on the 'Shadow King'? How many 'Body and Soul', and " The more things change" and all of the other Claremont-isms does it take before people started to tire of them? Personally, when I realized that Chris Claremont was ripping my favorite sci-fi writer, Octavia Butler? I was done. DONE.

I ADORE that run of comics. My favorite are the Claremont/ Silvestri years. I literally DROPPED X-Men the issue he left. I was elated when he came back THE FIRST time. But bad is bad. He lost it.

Click to shrink...

This is totally true. Probably the best thing about Claremont was how good of a team player he was. The sinergy between New Mutants, X-Factor and Uncanny X-Men when he and Simonson were writing them. How he spun editorial mandates like Jean not dying, Jean coming back, Colossus breaking up with Kitty, etc into solid gold storylines. How he incorpored a frankly bizarre miniseries by Ann Nocenti into X-Men canon seamlessly (Longshot, Spiral, Mojo, the Mojoverse...). The Wolverine miniseries with Frank Miller. The willingness to go big into weird territory when Bill Sienkiewicz was on New Mutants. The list goes on and on.

 

[BWoog]

"What went wrong with X-Men Forever?"

Chris Claremont wrote it.

 

[FnordChan]

I can't agree with that. As someone who thinks Dark Phoenix Saga is the best thing ever, Claremont had a lot (a LOT) of incredible stories after John Byrne left.

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Just to clarify, Rydeen was specifically comparing John Byrne's fanfic comic X-Men: Elsewhen that he's currently working on to Claremont's official what-if series X-Men Forever. If you're a fan of the Byrne/Claremont era of the X-Men you'll likely dig this; I've linked to where Byrne is publishing it on his forum in the post above yours.

 

[Nakho]

Just to clarify, Rydeen was specifically comparing John Byrne's fanfic comic X-Men: Elsewhen that he's currently working on to Claremont's official what-if series X-Men Forever. If you're a fan of the Byrne/Claremont era of the X-Men you'll likely dig this; I've linked to where Byrne is publishing it on his forum in the post above yours.

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I'm replying to the last part of his post.

The John Byrne "bootleg" X-Men books he's doing on his own that continues where he left the X-Men during the Dark Phoenix Saga are way more appealing and more "classic" X-Men action than what Claremont did with 'X-Men Forever', I recommend checking that out. Starts making me question who was the talent that made the books actually appealing in their heyday.

Click to shrink...

 

[FnordChan]

I'm replying to the last part of his post.

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Whoops - apologies for trying to Byrne-splain to you.

 

[The Iron Yuppie]

It's a few things.

- Claremont coming back to do his old ideas means that you're not seeing these characters as they eventually became. Cable's not Cyclops' time traveling son and that's a big part of the appeal for Cable fans, even if Claremont's backstory for Mr. Sinister absolutely needs to be canonized because it's a million times better than what we've got.

Click to shrink...

You got me curious. What was Claremont's take on Sinister and how's it tie into Cable?

 

[Weiss]

You got me curious. What was Claremont's take on Sinister and how's it tie into Cable?

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Oh no they're separate things.

Mr. Sinister was originally going to be the psychic projection of a Mutant who was eternally a child from the same orphanage as Cyclops. This is why he's got the stupid name and the gaudy clothes and his minions are called the Nasty Boys; he's supposed to be what a kid thinks a cool villain looks like. Gambit was also part of this in that he was going to be Sinister's psychic projection of what he thought a cool badass was like in order to hook up with Rogue, but that never materialized either.

Cable at first was basically just some guy with a big gun and had nothing to do with Cyclops. It was Fabian Nicieza who tied him to that by revealing he was Cyclops' time displaced son a couple years after Claremont's departure.

 

[Nakho]

The plans for Mr. Sinister sound really really stupid, not gonna lie hah Also Nasty Boys? That's post Claremont isn't it? The Marauders were legitimately terrifying when they first appeared, except Sabretooth (reason he got retconned)

I'm reading the end of New Mutants and beginning of X-Force right now, and it's crystal clear there was no plan for Cable to be a time-displaced son of Cyclops and Maddie, but I actually like the change. Created a lot of story opportunities.

 

[devenger]

Concerning novels, I read Claremont's First Flight when I was like 14. I loved it because all of the characters were clearly Xmen clones, personality wise. It was the sum totality of being nigh invulnerable, natch.

 

[deimosmasque]

Before we get too heavy in promoting John Byrne. Let's recall these things he said on his website over the years

On Transgender people
"Many people are tortured and driven by a desire to have sex with children. Our society frowns on this, and such people are considered mentally ill. We do not accommodate them, we do not respect them.

How is being "transgender" different? Given all the twists and turns that have happened in our general understanding of how the brain and mind work — still a work in progress — how difficult is it to imagine a future in which it will be determined without doubt that "transgender" is, indeed, a mental illness?

How will we feel about all those people who, instead of actually helping them, we encouraged in a program of self-mutilation?"

On Pedophilia
"Pedophiles are almost certainly "born that way". Again, we go to evolutionary conditioning. Seek the youngest, strongest, most healthy, for breeding purposes. A sure (or as sure as it gets) way to guarantee the survival of your genes. Pedophilia also brings along a big heaping helping of learned responses, however. In a society like ours, where "normal" sex is considered by many to be filthy and disgusting, "abnormal" sex is of course even moreso. "Abnormal" in this case meaning anything—even simple physical attraction—that is not "age-appropriate", heterosexual, and strictly for procreation. Preferably missionary position. Thus, any confused individual who finds himself attracted to young girls is likely to find himself attracted to increasingly younger girls, as part of his pattern of self-loathing. So much emotional torment—in victims and victimizers—would surely be set aside if our society was sexually liberated enough to even be able to say "Sure, it's okay to be attracted to eleven year olds. Just don't do anything about it!"

That's just my quick search. Deep diving will find even worse things.

 

[Shola Akinnuso]

I can't agree with that. As someone who thinks Dark Phoenix Saga is the best thing ever, Claremont had a lot (a LOT) of incredible stories after John Byrne left. Brood Saga, Lifedeath I and II, Wounded Wolf, Wolverine miniseries, God Loves Man Kills, Asgardian Wars, Mutant Massacre, Inferno... Storm and Kitty Pride's character developments was all after him, for example. Not to mention the whole of New Mutants, which is consistently amazing from the Demon Bear Saga until he leaves.

Byrne, in fact, fucked up a lot of X-Men related storylines afterwards: Jean in a cocoon and Phoenix being a copy of her, Magneto being a villain again, etc.

I'm not saying post-2000s Claremont isn't pretty shit, because he is. What the hell was that New Mutants Forever...



This is totally true. Probably the best thing about Claremont was how good of a team player he was. The sinergy between New Mutants, X-Factor and Uncanny X-Men when he and Simonson were writing them. How he spun editorial mandates like Jean not dying, Jean coming back, Colossus breaking up with Kitty, etc into solid gold storylines. How he incorpored a frankly bizarre miniseries by Ann Nocenti into X-Men canon seamlessly (Longshot, Spiral, Mojo, the Mojoverse...). The Wolverine miniseries with Frank Miller. The willingness to go big into weird territory when Bill Sienkiewicz was on New Mutants. The list goes on and on.

Click to shrink...

I just went back to look at the Claremont/X-Men documentary and I want to go on record to take back one thing I said about Chris. I thought that he stole the thunder from Simonson and Nocenti. After watching that doc, it was clear that it wasn't only a team effort, but that Chris really was the heart of it and they all loved him. Claremont, Dwayne McDuffie, and Octavia Butler were my earliest inspirations my desire to become a writer. I never made it, unfortunately, but it's good to know that I can put Claremont back on the pedestal that I had him on for all of these years. There will NEVER be a run like Claremont's X-Men run. I pretty much dropped comics when Chris left that book. With a few exceptions, I was done.

 

[Nakho]

That doc really is great. Love listening to Nocenti, Simonson and Claremont reminiscing about the old days, it always seems like those were a real blast.

 

[apocat]

Chris Claremont was ripping my favorite sci-fi writer, Octavia Butler?

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As someone who grew up with Claremonts X-Men and adores Octavia Butlers literature, it's crazy to me that I've never made that connetion before.

I don't mind, though. Art is not made in a vacuum, and all writers take from what they're inspired from. And if you're going to be inspired by something, being inspired by something exceptional seems like the right way to go about it.

 

[Shola Akinnuso]

As someone who grew up with Claremonts X-Men and adores Octavia Butlers literature, it's crazy to me that I've never made that connetion before.

I don't mind, though. Art is not made in a vacuum, and all writers take from what they're inspired from. And if you're going to be inspired by something, being inspired by something exceptional seems like the right way to go about it.

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Yeah, the Shadow King is all Octavia Butler. I was floored when I first read it, too. I was really mad at Claremont for a while because, throughout his X-Men run, characters would always reference books and authors from literature. Never once was Octavia Butler ever muttered, but it was so clear that the Shadow King came from her work. To me, it felt kind of like a betrayal. Like a clash of things that I loved spitting in the face of who I was. It's all good, though. Doesn't take away from the incredible run Claremont & Co. had. I find fewer and fewer people to talk to these days about how amazing that run was and why subsequent runs by amazing authors never quite 'got it'. There has only been one other run in American comics that I put on par with Chris' X-Men, and that's the ElfQuest Saga. Outside of that, maybe Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man run...

But yeah, Octavia was something special. Claremont's X-Men was/remains perfect. They weren't superhero books. In my silly mind, everything after X-Men #3 has been fan fiction!

 

[apocat]

Yeah, the Shadow King is all Octavia Butler. I was floored when I first read it, too. I was really mad at Claremont for a while because, throughout his X-Men run, characters would always reference books and authors from literature. Never once was Octavia Butler ever muttered, but it was so clear that the Shadow King came from her work. To me, it felt kind of like a betrayal. Like a clash of things that I loved spitting in the face of who I was. It's all good, though. Doesn't take away from the incredible run Claremont & Co. had. I find fewer and fewer people to talk to these days about how amazing that run was and why subsequent runs by amazing authors never quite 'got it'. There has only been one other run in American comics that I put on par with Chris' X-Men, and that's the ElfQuest Saga. Outside of that, maybe Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man run...

But yeah, Octavia was something special. Claremont's X-Men was/remains perfect. They weren't superhero books. In my silly mind, everything after X-Men #3 has been fan fiction!

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The Shadow King seems pretty obvious in retrospect, just like all the psychic links and how they are central to quite a few relationships. I like some of the X-Men runs that came after, especially Morrisons, but Claremonts was something special. I've been buying the omnibuses during the pandemic, and it still holds up so well. It does lose some of its magic around the time when Jim Lee came into the picture, though, even before Claremont was out of the picture.

That said, Butlers books are in a league of their own. She is probably one of the best sci-fi writers ever. Claremont isn't quite on that level.

 

[Shola Akinnuso]

.

That said, Butlers books are in a league of their own. She is probably one of the best sci-fi writers ever. Claremont isn't quite on that level.

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Not even close!
But he made an incredible mark in modern comics so I'll give that to his team. But, no. Not only is Claremont not close, Octavia Butler should be spoken amongst the best sci fi writers to ever do it.

 

[onpoint]

- Claremont coming back to do his old ideas means that you're not seeing these characters as they eventually became. Cable's not Cyclops' time traveling son and that's a big part of the appeal for Cable fans, even if Claremont's backstory for Mr. Sinister absolutely needs to be canonized because it's a million times better than what we've got.

Click to shrink...

What was the idea here? I'm curious.

 

[Weiss]

What was the idea here? I'm curious.

Click to shrink...

Claremont's intention for Mr. Sinister was that he was the psychic projection of a mutant who was eternally a child. This is why Mr. Sinister's got the name and gaudy costume, why his henchmen are called the Nasty Boys and live in a messy pigsty of a room, and why he's so focused on Cyclops at first; he grew up in the same orphanage and was obsessed with him.

This actually extends to Gambit. He was originally another psychic projection, but this time he was a cool swaggering hot badass, the kind of person a kid in the late 80s thinks is the raddest dude in the universe, so he could hook up with Rogue, who Sinister had a crush on.

 

[OhSatan]

Chris Claremont wrote it, that was its problem.

 

[Nakho]

I'm almost finishing up my first read-through of Claremont X-Men era, with all the spin-offs, Annuals, and what not... Really considering making a thread about it. Marvel Unlimited has made it so easy and convenient to read these in order, and it pays off so so well.

 

[Weiss]

I'm almost finishing up my first read-through of Claremont X-Men era, with all the spin-offs, Annuals, and what not... Really considering making a thread about it. Marvel Unlimited has made it so easy and convenient to read these in order, and it pays off so so well.

Click to shrink...

You should do this so I can jump up and down screaming that it's a literal perfect superhero comic.

 

[onpoint]

Claremont's intention for Mr. Sinister was that he was the psychic projection of a mutant who was eternally a child. This is why Mr. Sinister's got the name and gaudy costume, why his henchmen are called the Nasty Boys and live in a messy pigsty of a room, and why he's so focused on Cyclops at first; he grew up in the same orphanage and was obsessed with him.

This actually extends to Gambit. He was originally another psychic projection, but this time he was a cool swaggering hot badass, the kind of person a kid in the late 80s thinks is the raddest dude in the universe, so he could hook up with Rogue, who Sinister had a crush on.

Click to shrink...

Does this make both characters temporary and thus when the eternal child mutant is neutralized they will disappear?

 

[Weiss]

Does this make both characters temporary and thus when the eternal child mutant is neutralized they will disappear?

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Probably, though doing some brushing up I don't think it was actually confirmed they'd be psychic projections as I said. In X-Men Forever Mr. Sinister is a robot, so it might have been the case originally as well.

 

[Nakadai]

I'm almost finishing up my first read-through of Claremont X-Men era, with all the spin-offs, Annuals, and what not... Really considering making a thread about it. Marvel Unlimited has made it so easy and convenient to read these in order, and it pays off so so well.

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Do it! You seem to be pretty good at putting your thoughts on the man and his work into words.

 

[Shola Akinnuso]

You should do this so I can jump up and down screaming that it's a literal perfect superhero comic.

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There's a legit argument that Claremont's X-Men run wasn't a superhero run

 

[Weiss]

There's a legit argument that Claremont's X-Men run wasn't a superhero run

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Okay you have my attention. I need to hear this.

 

[Shola Akinnuso]

Okay you have my attention. I need to hear this.

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Chris says it himself pretty much here: 49:12 - 51:10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE9d_loB-I8
Personally speaking, The X-Men was probably the only comic book that I remember looking at totally different than the other superhero books. With the exception of 80's Spider-man stories, specifically, the Roger Stern years, nobody was really telling personal stories about the people first. It took me a LONG time to stop thinking about the X-Men as a group of people who happened to wear costumes from time to time. In my head, It was always Scott, Jean, Kitty, Logan, Ororo, etc and I'd forget that they were also Cyke, Phoenix, Wolverine, Storm, etc. The stories were very much about these individuals and their family dynamic and how they fit into the world as opposed to these big grand adventures - which were there - but that's not what the book really was. When I think back on X-men, it was never the fights. It was the conversations and the relationships between these people who became a family.

As a fan invested in what CC created, it was never about 'who was on the team', because that cast was was always ALWAYS evolving organically. The world would change and the dynamics would change appropriately. I'll never forget the Silvestri years when the X-Men were stuck in Australia. Claremont actually gave these people dreams and visions which offered such intimate insight into how these characters felt, what they feared, and what motivated them. This is NOT superhero stuff. This wasn't a template done before or since.

Man, what an amazing freaking run. I could talk about CC's X-Men for days.