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What was the exact moment when Naruto threw away "Tactics and strategy can beat overwhelming raw power"?
- Thread starter Slayven
- Start date
it was more of a come an go thing
then a definitive thing
there was Def some strat fights agianst some of the undead people in the war arc
it Completly disappears in the manga when the 10 tails awakens
then a definitive thing
there was Def some strat fights agianst some of the undead people in the war arc
it Completly disappears in the manga when the 10 tails awakens
To be fair, most of Naruto's own victories involved begging his inner Swiper the Fox for orange fart gas.
OP
OP
There were flashes of it during Naruto vs Haku but it reared its ugly head once Shipuden started. Shikamaru vs Hidan was like a nice little nod back to the older days but by then it had already turned into DBZ.
Chuunin Exam - Sasuke retrieval arc was peak tactics and strategy for the series.
Chuunin Exam - Sasuke retrieval arc was peak tactics and strategy for the series.
Original Sharingan was cool though.
It was the Mangekyo that just went straight into hax.
Naruto va pain was strategic though. He was timing his sage mode and utilizing his rasen shuriken and planing it out. It only devolved into a power fight from there.
That was more acceptable as it was clearly a special moment that wouldn't really occur frequently. It was more to establish that the Kyubi is a great power, but one that can't be relied on and when Kyubi wasn't in play, Naruto had to rely on his tactics.
And that's a cool dynamic, but Kishimoto both played it out too frequently and it became more and more of Naruto's main tactic.
For example, Neji fight, Naruto won through tactics by digging underground and hitting Neji where he couldn't see, but only after using Kyubi to boost his chakra stamina past where he would normally be defeated. Same thing with the Gaara fight where he used Kyubi Chakra to summon the toad boss to be on par with Gaara's giant form. Tactics never left that aspect, but Naruto rarely ever brought down an opponent without the raw power offered by Kyubi.
But if there is a moment it was abandoned, it was probably the climactic fight between Naruto and Sasuke at the end of Part 1. Naruto doesn't really use his tactics to outplay Sasuke's Sharingan, he mostly just keeps dipping more and more into Kyubi's power while being hyper emo about how sad he is that Sasuke isn't his friend. Meanwhile, Sasuke is doing his own version of this where he progresses his Sharingan into 3 dots and uses the full curse.
If I could go back and re-edit Naruto into a new story, then I wouldn't really change the dynamic of how Part 1 handled it, but decrease the frequency of it and give Naruto some W's that he got on his own. Treat the Kyubi as like a nuclear power that should only be brought out in the utmost crisis situation. And when he does come out, have it come at a cost that doesn't boil down to "Naruto is tuckered out for a bit"
The episodes where Shikamaru outsmarts his opponents are the only episodes I really care for from the series in retrospect.
I never made it through Shippuden, but I remember most everything with Naruto devolving into some amount of shadow clones (which are easily dispatched) and Rasengan...ad nauseum.
I never made it through Shippuden, but I remember most everything with Naruto devolving into some amount of shadow clones (which are easily dispatched) and Rasengan...ad nauseum.
The show is too inconsistent. Look at the last Naruto v Sasuke fight and you can see the strategy Sasuke used at the beginning.
Shikamaru fight was the last full strategy fight in the series, before people just morphed into giant spirit animals.
Shikamaru fight was the last full strategy fight in the series, before people just morphed into giant spirit animals.
At least it's attempt of character drama iirc than a tactical ninja fight
part 2.
Edit to be moe exact I'd say right after Nauto v Pain and Sasuke v Itachi.. it just became dbz lite after that. and all the bs with the Sharingan afterwards
Edit to be moe exact I'd say right after Nauto v Pain and Sasuke v Itachi.. it just became dbz lite after that. and all the bs with the Sharingan afterwards
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"Tactics and strategy beat raw power" was never a hard rule of Naruto. I feel like people sometimes make up what Naruto was about only to say it abandoned its main theme when in reality, it never was that way. Tactics come and go in Naruto depending on the situation. It's always been that way. Like someone pointed out, Naruto beats Haku by just powering up and punching him. Earlier in that same arc Naruto and Sasuke manage to trick Zabuza with clever tactics but it doesn't defeat him. No they just free Kakashi who then goes to overpower Zabuza.
Even if we are to make up that this "tactics > power" rule exists, it still exists throughout the series. Yes, even in the war arc there's multiple moments of the characters overcoming the enemies' overwhelming power with clever ideas. Naruto, B, Guy and Kakashi had to use tactics to figure out Tobi's abilities and counter them for example. Another example is Kaguya. Kaguya is immensely more powerful than Naruto or Sasuke but her weakness is that she isn't a shinobi. She's the god of shinobi and basically just has raw power. It's only due to tactics and teamwork that Team 7 are able to defeat her.
Even if we are to make up that this "tactics > power" rule exists, it still exists throughout the series. Yes, even in the war arc there's multiple moments of the characters overcoming the enemies' overwhelming power with clever ideas. Naruto, B, Guy and Kakashi had to use tactics to figure out Tobi's abilities and counter them for example. Another example is Kaguya. Kaguya is immensely more powerful than Naruto or Sasuke but her weakness is that she isn't a shinobi. She's the god of shinobi and basically just has raw power. It's only due to tactics and teamwork that Team 7 are able to defeat her.
Wasn't rasen shuriken supposed to fuck up his arms or some shit?
Yeah, was supposed to be a nuke that would give him prema damage and I think it was too strong for clones to deliver (?) so it was a win button but one he should never use.
Then after that he learns how to chuck it and we're off to the power creep races with all the new characters being silly strong.
Basically iirc it was like shit ton of little needles that would eventually make it be he couldn't use chakra in his arms and i remember it being irreparable hence clones
Yeah, it worked at the time. I just didn't think it'd be a mark of things to come. I thought that it was more of an escalation where they're now just inexperienced genin, so they're throwing their power loads at each other without any regard, but once they learn to harness the Kyubi and the curse/sharingan, we'd still get these massive power levels, but they'd be used tactically too. Guess not.
Naruto is pretty tactical but not in the chess-like way Shikamaru is. Shikamaru will plan a fight out from the beginning, anticipating what his opponent will do. Naruto will come up with clever stuff on the fly which is why he's unpredictable.
The rasen-shuriken was never a win button. Even when he first got the technique, Naruto had to use tactics to hit Kakuzu with it. The first time Naruto used it as a projectile against Pain, he had to work around the fact that two of the Pain's could easily nullify the entire jutsu. Like, his rasenshuriken gets absorbed by one of the Pains so Naruto tricks him by throwing himself transformed into a rasenshuriken so he can take that Pain out. But even that was just a diversion so that Naruto could take out the Pain that could revive the others in the back.
Boruto doesn't know how to use the rasenshuriken. As of now, it's still exclusively Naruto's jutsu.
Oh you mean Sasuke retrieval arc where over half of the rescuers pulled power ups out of their asses with one of them suppose to die from it and then not dieing. That shit literally started right there.
Depends on who was fighting who really, and that goes for the entire series.
But yeah there's something more of a noticeable shift around Pain, and I'd chalk that up a lot to the characters receiving fights on the regular here being in the upper echelon on the inevitable power creep so you had a lot more tailed beasts, sharingan hax, kage level powers, undead super ninja and so on.
Though all things considered even in this late game the series till carries hints of tactics and such throughout, even when it's down to the dimension shifting madness of Kaguya there's a few gambits in there that remind you that it's still Naruto and not just BEAMZ
But yeah there's something more of a noticeable shift around Pain, and I'd chalk that up a lot to the characters receiving fights on the regular here being in the upper echelon on the inevitable power creep so you had a lot more tailed beasts, sharingan hax, kage level powers, undead super ninja and so on.
Though all things considered even in this late game the series till carries hints of tactics and such throughout, even when it's down to the dimension shifting madness of Kaguya there's a few gambits in there that remind you that it's still Naruto and not just BEAMZ
I still bring this up whenever I discuss Naruto -
"if you eat these pills, you will die"
*eats pills, turns into Goku, doesn't die*
WELP...!
On one hand that's one upside of Shippuuden, people actually die, so there's some tension.
It never really threw it away. Someone earlier said it was more come and go and that's probably right.
I mean even up until the Madara right with the 5 Kage and even last that there were tactics involved.
Come on, Sasuke Versus Deidara was peak tactics too.
Boruto hasn't learned the Rasen-Shuriken. He knows the Rasengan and how to throw it.
This.
Hell, even Adult Sasuke and Adult Naruto Versus Momoshiki involves tactics and they're basically gods at that point.
Half is still better than none lol. That's a pretty good fraction from a series like Naruto.
The very first fight was Naruto overwhelming his opponent in pure numbers thanks to his his chakra reserves. Heck, I think they even mention in the beginning that Naruto was brute forcing ninjutsu by sheer volume of chakra.
Sasuke VS Danzo was pretty tactical too. Danzo had an incredibly OP ability and Sasuke spent the first half of the fight trying to figure out how his ability worked and then analyzed Danzo's tendencies to form a counterstrategy. In the end, even with all of Sasuke's abilities like the susanoo, what won the fight was a very simple and subtle genjustu. It was honestly the most intelligent use of a genjutsu in the entire series. Usually genjutsu are use to paralyze people inside illusions but Sasuke just pulled a quick trick on Danzo to make him think he was invincible for a split second and allow himself to be stabbed. And that's after Pain where people in this thread are saying tactics stopped.
Sasuke/Deidara was a great throwdown that actually played into mostly underexplored tactics like how elements could cancel out others that was hinted upon beforehand during the Rasenshuriken creation.
Unfortunately it ended with the great snake escape that overshadows everything good that happened beforehand, it's like a great wrestling match ending in a dusty finish, you can only remember the bad end.
Unfortunately it ended with the great snake escape that overshadows everything good that happened beforehand, it's like a great wrestling match ending in a dusty finish, you can only remember the bad end.
The two that didn't pull that shit either died (Neji) or never did anything again lol (Kiba)
I'm cool with the Great Snake escape.
We see at the beginning of Shippūden and in the second arc of Part 2 that Sasuke is so fast he can teleport down a cliff in less than a second not to mention that Genjutsu doesn't take time as well.
And he still got hit by the blast along with Manda but he's got Oro's regenerative abilities at that point.
I always thought the bigger issue was that summoning is supposed to take a large amount of chakra, and at that point in time the entire dilemma is that Sasuke is so gassed he can barely move.
Shikamaru didn't win via power up and he got an arc while Choji did but he never did anything again.
Like, the only characters that did stuff after that arc that were on that mission are Shikamaru and Naruto.
We only saw that with Naruto because Naruto has a inefficient use of chakra. It takes him several times the amount of chakra to do the same move that Sasuke can.
Not to mention that Oro is inside Sasuke and Sasuke is using chakra to suppress him so he has some left in the pipe or Oro would've exploded out of him.
But there's an easy head-canon to make it all make sense. Oro lent Sasuke some chakra because it's in his best interest to keep Sasuke from being caught in an explosion.
Ah, I did forget about the whole Naruto overdoing it with the summoning efforts, we even got Jiraiya diagrams for that waste of chakra.
Well it's not a perfect explanation but i'll take it.
It's was a slow process. It was okay in phase 1 because everyone was weak, but then it started being the main factor of winning some fights, I guess.
Even the war arc has some fights with strategy, but as soon as Madara appears, RIP
Even the war arc has some fights with strategy, but as soon as Madara appears, RIP