What should the punishment be for ignoring/defying COVID restrictions?

[Goldenroad]

I keep reading stories from people getting fined $500 or less, to people being taken to jail for breaking COVID related restrictions.

I'm just curious where the line is for you. I just read about a lady in my city who received a $2800 fine for hosting a gathering of 12 people (gatherings here, in the home, are limited to 5 people at this time), defying public health orders.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7445719/house-party-violation-regina-coronavirus/

Then I read this story about this restaurateur in Ontario who could be potentially facing jail time for continually defying public orders regarding the operations of his restaurant.

https://dailyhive.com/toronto/adamson-bbq-more-charges

I don't feel the least bit bad for either of these folks, mind you, but it's also hard to not empathize with the restauranteur as a small business owner myself.

So...where do you think the line should be drawn? How much slack do you give people? At what point do people need to start actually being incarcerated for trying to run their business, gather with their friends, or see their families?

I'm not pretending I have the answers. I don't think incarceration is safe or practical during a pandemic, but also, if you're not able to work, or make a living, how are fines going to be a constructive solution? For me, I think maybe just publicly naming and shaming should be the play, but these people are often very public about their actions, and maybe that wouldn't be a deterrent at all.

I'm just really torn on this. This pandemic is hard on everyone, and I don't think the police involvement generally improve matters in almost anything.

Let's say you're Mayor, or Governor, or President, or just a concerned citizen. How would you enforce these restrictions and penalize those who don't comply?

 

[ItIsOkBro]

lower vaccine priority

 

[the globglobgadgalab]

Honestly it's a bit cruel but I think if the hospitals are overburdened by patients you should be placed at the bottom of the list to be treated. This shit isn't a game

 

[Mandos]

Nigeria I think had a novel solution: community service helping with the dead bodies and burying them. That may have been for covid deniers though

 

[Z-Beat]

the boo box

 

[Novoitus]

Fines like these disproportionately affect poor and working class families, especially those in countries like the United States, where the federal government has offered no aid or relief since July

 

[CelestialAtom]

Nigeria I think had a novel solution: community service helping with the dead bodies and burying them. That may have been for covid deniers though

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This right here. Not only that, there should be jail time if it can be proven that a person who died from COVID-19 got the virus from you.

 

[PositivePolitique]

It depends on how realistic and/or effective the restrictions are. In some countries, many restrictions are a complete facade to show that the government are doing something.

 

[Zoe]

Fine or community service

 

[Goldenroad]

Fines like these disproportionately affect poor and working class families, especially those in countries like the United States, where the federal government has offered no aid or relief since July

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Yeah. I agree and said the same thing in so many words, but I'm asking what you think the penalty should be.

 

[rsfour]

Heavier fines. If you get sick because of your own stupidity and ignoring laws, too bad, so sad.

 

[NetMapel]

I think that BBQ restaurant is operating without a business license anyways so it probably shouldn't have been operating at all? However, I do see a lot of issues with what we see here in this video that can make small business owners pissed off. How does that make any sense? I also see big businesses are still operating due to providing "essential services" on top of other things due to its sheer size and that is killing a lot of small businesses that sell only sell specialized goods. There is a great unfairness in this whole situation for sure.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

A fine proportionate to one's income. a percentage that's exponentially higher for richer offenders

 

[alr1ght]

You forfeit your rights to a hospital bed. If they fill up, you get kicked out. You get sent to the back of the line on a vaccine list.

 

[ToddBonzalez]

Rather than being allowed to get the vaccine, you have the virus injected into your veins.

 

[Eoin]

Restrictions are complicated and circumstances behind infringements will come from the entire range of human subjectivity and individuality. That means that any set of punishments has to be wide and varied to match.

That could include something as simple as someone infringing a restriction having to sign a legal document accepting that they were wrong and that they now understand why. It could be attending a (socially distanced) class on virus spread and why the guidelines and restrictions exist (and the people teaching those classes could be drawn from people who lost their jobs due to the pandemic, giving some of them a source of income). It could be community service. It could be fines for persistent or flagrant offenders (ideally with fines index-linked to the person's wealth and the impact of the infringement, though realistically in most countries this is never going to happen). I'm not sure that imprisonment should be an option - it seems like a waste of a lot of people's time and a risk to a lot of people's health just to stick someone in prison.

Naming and shaming seems like it wouldn't be effective. The people who are most flagrantly infringing on restrictions, to the point of attracting legal attention, are already doing so publicly.

 

[djplaeskool]

Community service at their local hospital

 

[Wrexis]

Accidentally: Nothing. People make mistakes.
Intentionally: Involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Goldenroad]

Community service at their local hospital

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I'd be pretty pissed off if I wasn't allowed in the hospital to see my grandmother in her dying days (which happened this year), but yet some asshole who decides to go out and party with their friends on the weekend is allowed in the hospital. Maybe you could get them shoveling the parking lot or something, but I don't think you (or the medical staff at the hospitals), want people who are defying public health orders to be sent into the hospitals to help out.

Community service of some kind does seem like the best answer though. Food Banks and shelters are always looking for help, especially now, and maybe that's where you want to send these people, within confined spaces of those facilities obviously.

 

[ThereAre4Lights]

 

[djplaeskool]

I'd be pretty pissed off if I wasn't allowed in the hospital to see my grandmother in her dying days (which happened this year), but yet some asshole who decides to go out and party with their friends on the weekend is allowed in the hospital. Maybe you could get them shoveling the parking lot or something, but I don't think you (or the medical staff at the hospitals), want people who are defying public health orders to be sent into the hospitals to help out.

Community service of some kind does seem like the best answer though. Food Banks and shelters are always looking for help, especially now, and maybe that's where you want to send these people, within confined spaces of those facilities obviously.

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Fair point.
Actually, I like the food bank idea even more.

 

[Nepenthe]

As a healthcare worker, you cannot prioritize who gets care based upon whether or not their condition is the result of their deliberate choices. That is inhumane. Proportional fines I think would be best.

 

[Gernau Morat Gurgeh]

Fines. In extreme cases community service in hospitals and morgues.

 

[Fugu]

This is a very complicated question. Enforcement, in practice, will absolutely not target the party-goers and the people violating the rules in an otherwise private way. Rather, it will, as it basically always does, disproportionately fall upon those whose violation of the rules represents a difficult and often economic choice. Accordingly, I don't think any use of the criminal law is truly productive here. The outrage is far better directed at a system that is so lacking in safety nets that there are entire swaths of the population who can't afford to behave in a healthy way.

"Proportionate fines" is an oxymoron. There is no just amount of money to extract from a person who is left with no real choice but to violate the law.

 

[3bdelilah]

Mandatory community service at a rehabilitation facility where former COVID-patients are recovering.

 

[SigSig]

everyone who spreads covid by willingly ignoring restrictions should be tried for manslaughter/assault.
if you ignore restrictions as a business owner (restaurant and other vectors of spread, not freelancers working from home etc.), you really can't be trusted to run a business anymore.

 

[McNum]

14 days of house arrest. If you cannot self-isolate at home, you will be put somewhere you can be alone.

Repeat offenders get fines.

 

[Garlador]

the boo box

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Tangent, but it still blows my mind that's Glenn Close.

 

[tangeu]

Is there a such thing as attempted manslaughter? I'd also be up for labeling them as bio-terrorist, but would settle for reckless endangerment (one count for each person they pass by).

 

[Fushichou187]

If they are a business that is violating covid restrictions, revoke the business license.

If they are an individual that is violating it with dumbfuckery like waltzing around indoor areas without a mask, being aggressive towards people or staff that ask them to comply, then make them work in a covid ward at the local hospital for two weeks. Pay them minimum wage.

 

[Fugu]

everyone who spreads covid by willingly ignoring restrictions should be tried for manslaughter/assault.
if you ignore restrictions as a business owner (restaurant and other vectors of spread, not freelancers working from home etc.), you really can't be trusted to run a business anymore.

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This is a great example of a policy that primarily punishes the poor while basically exempting the land-owning class for any responsibility they may have in exacerbating the effects of the pandemic (such as by demanding rent from a tenant that can't make money).

Is there a such thing as attempted manslaughter? I'd also be up for labeling them as bio-terrorist, but would settle for reckless endangerment (one count for each person they pass by).

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Another "punish the poor" policy.

14 days of house arrest. If you cannot self-isolate at home, you will be put somewhere you can be alone.

Repeat offenders get fines.

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This one also punishes the poor while doing absolutely nothing to wealthy people. It also strikes me as completely impossible to enforce.

 

[M. Wallace]

$5K first time offense.

If you're caught again, you should be jailed until Covid is "over".

 

[Fugu]

$5K first time offense.

If you're caught again, you should be jailed until Covid is "over".

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Another advocate for punishing the poor, I see.

 

[tangeu]

Another "punish the poor" policy.

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The poor are the people at my local shopping market with masks under their chin leaning over my personal space? The poor are the ones waving guns about, yelling and screaming, when asked to wear a mask? The poor are the ones traveling to huge thanksgivings? News to me, I've only seen rich entitled assholes flaunting the rules.

 

[BigDes]

Fair point.
Actually, I like the food bank idea even more.

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Fuck no

I don't want some selfish asshole who is only there because they have to be sneering openly at all the people who need the food bank services because you know they would.

Plus the food bank is risky enough Covid wise, I'd not be willing to carry on volunteering there if I found out someone who had been openly flouting extremely basic covid prevention rules was going to work there.

 

[FunkyStudent]

This is a great example of a policy that primarily punishes the poor while basically exempting the land-owning class for any responsibility they may have in exacerbating the effects of the pandemic (such as by demanding rent from a tenant that can't make money).


Another "punish the poor" policy.


This one also punishes the poor while doing absolutely nothing to wealthy people. It also strikes me as completely impossible to enforce.

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Absolutely agree with all of these points. Not everyone violating best practices is a vocal white anti-mask lunatic.

 

[Fugu]

The poor are the people at my local shopping market with masks under their chin leaning over my personal space? The poor are the ones waving guns about, yelling and screaming, when asked to wear a mask? The poor are the ones traveling to huge thanksgivings? News to me.

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To believe that a provision like this wouldn't target the poor is to reject the reality in which we currently live where the state is decidedly not neutral in who they enforce the law against.

 

[bananab]

Problem is so much of this is caused by failings in government, so you get into a situation where the government is causing a problem and then punishing people for it. No one wants to lose their livelihood because the lack of safety nets makes it seem like a fate worse than death for many people. Hell you can be broke for just a month or two and it can change the rest of your life. The only way to prevent businesses from opening to the public (and that stoppage is the goal, not just punishing people) is to subsidize them somehow, and that won't happen. And even if it did, you would see businesses open because they don't know whether people will come back after they've been closed for so long.

Individuals gathering are doing it in part due to horrendous messaging from the govt, so it's nearly as messy. Kids can't get it, young adults don't die from it, survival rates are whatever %, none of that stuff should have ever been a part of the broader message. But since it was, people are going to latch onto the most favorable stat or "fact" that suits them. Which is incredibly frustrating, but it's hard to think of the best way for a govt to essentially say, we put a dumb thought in your head and now you're under arrest for having that dumb thought. And it's really tough to think of a punishment that doesn't disproportionately affect the poor because practically everything disproportionately affects the poor.

It really just boggles the mind that all this is happening now, as any new messaging around this as Biden takes office will probably just be seen as consistent with regime change so I doubt the toothpaste can be put back in the tube. Here's hoping for a vaccine.

 

[UF_C]

Tangent, but it still blows my mind that's Glenn Close.

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whaaa?

 

[tangeu]

To believe that a provision like this wouldn't target the poor is to reject the reality in which we currently live where the state is decidedly not neutral in who they enforce the law against.

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No, you're right. Sorry I'm just a little worked up that a huge portion of the population refuse to take this DEADLY PANDEMIC seriously.

 

[Gawge]

This is a very complicated question. Enforcement, in practice, will absolutely not target the party-goers and the people violating the rules in an otherwise private way. Rather, it will, as it basically always does, disproportionately fall upon those whose violation of the rules represents a difficult and often economic choice. Accordingly, I don't think any use of the criminal law is truly productive here. The outrage is far better directed at a system that is so lacking in safety nets that there are entire swaths of the population who can't afford to behave in a healthy way.

"Proportionate fines" is an oxymoron. There is no just amount of money to extract from a person who is left with no real choice but to violate the law.

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Fully agree.

Whilst the idea of rich celebrities who have ludicrous gatherings being 'punished' is instinctively appealing, the genuine impact is just targeting people who are being failed by a lack of any responsive which cares about them.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

This thread has gone full 'The Purge', fucking hell.

 

[Divvy]

I forget which country did this, but they forced violators to dig graves for those that died from covid. I would go with that

I don't feel the least bit bad for either of these folks, mind you, but it's also hard to not empathize with the restauranteur as a small business owner myself.

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I sucks tremendously for small businesses but I wouldn't emphatize with this asshole. He's a Qanon covid denying nazi.

 

[Parch]

It sounds like Canada is going to get more serious about enforcement, even though they already are handing out fines. What seems to be the focus is on social gatherings. That probably should have been more strongly enforced months ago.

If they clamp down on groups of people, that should limit the amount of complaints about individual profiling. It's a group that is targeted, not individuals. Or a business. If a bar or restaurant is not enforcing covid protocols, then penalties should be harsh.

And it does seem that social gathering really are the problem. The guy without a mask walking his dog is not the problem.

 

[Sibylus]

Confiscation of capital.

 

[killerrin]

A fine. But one set to a percentage of income instead of a fixed limit. That way it hurts rich people just as much as poor people.

 

[Fugu]

If they clamp down on groups of people, that should limit the amount of complaints about individual profiling. It's a group that is targeted, not individuals. Or a business. If a bar or restaurant is not enforcing covid protocols, then penalties should be harsh.

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...Right, then they'll just profile groups of minorities like they already do.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

A fine proportionate to one's income. a percentage that's exponentially higher for richer offenders

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Nah it's still gonna harm the poorer people more than the richer offenders. A fine of (number pulled out my arse) 2.5% of income might mean a working class family that is barely making ends meet can't afford their next meal while a landlord with a dozen properties won't even feel it.

You forfeit your rights to a hospital bed. If they fill up, you get kicked out. You get sent to the back of the line on a vaccine list.

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This is a bit evil.

Rather than being allowed to get the vaccine, you have the virus injected into your veins.

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Kiss my entire arse.

 

[samoyed]

In fairness, I do believe fines for violating the public good can work. But they need to scale to total net worth to have any deterrent effect at all (and I don't even believe in deterrence policing) and to be fair to all income ranges. Also I remember reading somewhere that the certainty of being caught does more to deter crime than the degree of punishment.

Edit: Damn you Boban!

 

[Captain_Vyse]

Fines.

My fantasy would be that the selfish jerks get denied Medical Care if they get COVID-19.