its a "genre" only because it makes it easier to quickly explain what a game is, not unlike "metroidvania".
People getting bent out of shape over it is truly baffling (I'm not saying you are getting bent out of shape because of it)
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What makes a game a "Souls-like"
- Thread starter Morrigan
- Start date
its a "genre" only because it makes it easier to quickly explain what a game is, not unlike "metroidvania".
People getting bent out of shape over it is truly baffling (I'm not saying you are getting bent out of shape because of it)
This is exactly why it seems silly to try and define entire genres based around a single game or tightly connected lineage of games. At some point you need to generalize the concept if you really want it to stand on its own as a genre (or even as a attribute that can be applied to multiple other genres), otherwise you're just going to end up trapped in a tautology. Yes, not all of the From games have the exact same mechanics, but those three things I listed are what I would say have crystallized into a definable rubric that other games now mix and match from.
My memory may be spotty since I haven't played it since I was a teeneager, but I seem to recall ragequitting a few times because of that. I think that if you did a naked run and die you'd only lose the gold (because it was an item separate from your corpse), but if you tried to equip anything to get to your corpse and then died, then only the equipment from your "new" corpse would be available for pickup, while your original loadout would be lost.
OP
OP
#7....
Dude I've seen someone claim that a big boss HP bar at the bottom is Souls-like...
As for dark fantasy, well, I never saw anyone claim Souls games invented it per se, but I have seen people say that because a game has a dark fantasy aesthetic, it makes it Souls-like. Which is of course ridiculous.
Yeah like, I totally dont care, its an exercise in semantics at the end of the day
I get way more flustered over Metroidvanias, like, no, SotN was a Metroid game, Hollow Knight is a Metroid game, get this vania nonsense out of there, haha
Kings Field is the only game I have ever played where it felt like the game hated me. The Souls games wish they could hate you like Kings Field.
7- suffer hardship and punishing loss when you mess up (XP/currency loss on death, sometimes more:
What about having to retrieve the xp on the next life, that's a pretty big souls mechanic. Some would say the souls mechanic apart from other players leaving you hints and seeing other players ghosts.
I appreciate the thought that went into this OP, but I'm confused about why minimalistic storytelling, methodical combat, and obtuse NPC sidequests are not counted as being core parts of the Soulslike experience (because the Souls games didn't come up with them?) even though in the list of core Soulslike traits (i.e. excluding 1, 7, and 8), traits 3, 5, and 6 are very very common in many videogames. If those get to be part of the core Soulslike package, why not the three other traits named above? For me, those three traits certainly define the Soulslike experience much more strongly than, say, traits 1, 5, and 6.
People improperly refer to Metroidvania games as "Souls-like" so often because Souls-like is really just a subgenre of Metroidvania in the first place. An easy way to describe Dark Souls to someone who hasn't heard of it would be to say "Imagine a Castlevania game based on Metroid Prime".
While it's interesting to have this discussion, I wouldn't blame people for getting confused considering how vague and overlapping so many video game genres are.
While it's interesting to have this discussion, I wouldn't blame people for getting confused considering how vague and overlapping so many video game genres are.
I think Blasphemous is a bit more of a Souls game than you give credit for in your list.
2- carefully explore an intricately designed level (usually with lots of shortcuts looping back to save points/safe areas) with minimal to non-existing hand-holding (e.g. no map, no markers, no journal/quest log, no NPCs spelling things out for you plainly, etc.)
Blasphemous has a map, but it's intricately designed with shortcuts looping back, no quest log, and the sidequests are obscure as all hell.
3- survive challenging enemy encounters, traps and ambushes, with often particularly nasty bosses;
Check
4- combat system is stamina-based, methodical, primarily melee-driven, focusing on blocking and/or evading and a "hit and run" style rather than being based on combo streaks or button mashing;
Half check, no stamina, but there's a good bit of needing to block/parry. Mostly melee with a little bit of magic.
7- suffer hardship and punishing loss when you mess up (XP/currency loss on death, sometimes more);
You don't lose your tears, but you do build up guilt that you need to reclaim from where you died.
Plus the bile jars are essentially estus flasks/blood viles.
2- carefully explore an intricately designed level (usually with lots of shortcuts looping back to save points/safe areas) with minimal to non-existing hand-holding (e.g. no map, no markers, no journal/quest log, no NPCs spelling things out for you plainly, etc.)
Blasphemous has a map, but it's intricately designed with shortcuts looping back, no quest log, and the sidequests are obscure as all hell.
3- survive challenging enemy encounters, traps and ambushes, with often particularly nasty bosses;
Check
4- combat system is stamina-based, methodical, primarily melee-driven, focusing on blocking and/or evading and a "hit and run" style rather than being based on combo streaks or button mashing;
Half check, no stamina, but there's a good bit of needing to block/parry. Mostly melee with a little bit of magic.
7- suffer hardship and punishing loss when you mess up (XP/currency loss on death, sometimes more);
You don't lose your tears, but you do build up guilt that you need to reclaim from where you died.
Plus the bile jars are essentially estus flasks/blood viles.
OP
OP
There's a lot of aspects of Souls that I enjoy and care about deeply. Art direction, atmosphere, PvP. I spent countless hours PvPing most Souls games (primarily Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 3 if I had to count by time spent).
But, much as I love those aspects of Souls games, they aren't essential to describing a game as a "Souls-like". It's not about what I like the best about the games.
LotF or Nioh don't have a "minimalistic story", they're pretty straightforward with standard cut scenes, but they're still Souls-likes. Obtuse NPC sidequests can be completely ignored altogether and are not a core aspect of the gameplay, plus, they have been around in many RPGs before.
As for the combat, it does matter of course, I think I elaborated with enough detail there.
I thought Metroidvania necessitated acquiring additional means of traversal to proceed to previously locked areas?
The souls-like games have the labyrinthine level design, but I'm not sure there are any actual acquired traversal powers.
Honestly the main thing I see is the concept of the world having continuity/persistence through player character death. Even though, mechanically, it often has little functional difference compared to just reloading a save, most games angling to be "Souls-like" really seem to want to borrow the idea that the world keeps on turning even when the player character dies.
Bonus points if you drop all your currency on the ground and have to go pick it up. (Shovel Knight, the truest of Souls-like games.)
Bonus points if you drop all your currency on the ground and have to go pick it up. (Shovel Knight, the truest of Souls-like games.)
I am not sure I can put it into a set criteria. While I know games like The Surge, Nioh, Lords of the Fallen have some attributes of the FromSoftware game, they simply lack the magic and feeling I get from playing Dark Souls/Bloodborne. Hard to say if it is just the less interesting atmosphere, less engaging gameplay/level design but for me they do not hold my attention.
Souls-like is the Art of obscure lore and difficulty. Produce difficulty and lore, then obfuscate it; just as FROM did. A Souls-like must be in tune with difficulty itself. A Souls-Like difficulty is a part of its own core mechanic. The difficulty develops right along with the players skill. ā¦ Sorry. You're a Soulsborne veteran yourself. You already know this.
Unfortunately, Souls-like have a, well, rather elitist aspect to them. They mesh poorly with advanced casual gaming, and Souls-like are considered rather unsavoury. Which is fine, as I never got along with casuals anyway. So, for me, getting Gud didn't change a thing! Hah hah hah hah.
Unfortunately, Souls-like have a, well, rather elitist aspect to them. They mesh poorly with advanced casual gaming, and Souls-like are considered rather unsavoury. Which is fine, as I never got along with casuals anyway. So, for me, getting Gud didn't change a thing! Hah hah hah hah.
Nah, those are differences in implementation, not genre. Going the long way around then activating a shortcut to a previous area / returning to previous areas once you're strong enough to defeat the surrounding enemies is functionally identical to Metroid-like gameplay. You don't need to literally collect items in order to achieve the same gameplay loop.
To me a Souls Like is first an Action RPG, of significant difficulty, in the vein of "harsh but fair".
I would list elements in 3 categories to be one:
Must Have
- Horror elements. Souls like are typically Dark, and gory.
- Significant difficulty, skill based. There are elements in game to offset said difficulty (leveling, summoning) but no difficulty level to choose per se.
- The Lore/ story is told mostly through found documents and even though there are some cut scenes they are both scant and cryptic, mostly introducing bosses or key changes in the world.
- Boss/ stage based.
- Platforming is kept to a minimum. The difficulty comes from the fights, not hard to make multi jumps.
- Experience can be lost on Death, but can be regained
- spots to reach to "save" progression
- Intricate level design, with multiple roads and shortcuts.
- Heals are limited
Somewhat defining
- Character Creation
- Statistics to increase
- Classes with specialties that alter the play style deeply
- Asynch communication with other players (through notes/ death anim...)
- Coop and PVp
Optional
- Silent protag
- NG+
I would list elements in 3 categories to be one:
Must Have
- Horror elements. Souls like are typically Dark, and gory.
- Significant difficulty, skill based. There are elements in game to offset said difficulty (leveling, summoning) but no difficulty level to choose per se.
- The Lore/ story is told mostly through found documents and even though there are some cut scenes they are both scant and cryptic, mostly introducing bosses or key changes in the world.
- Boss/ stage based.
- Platforming is kept to a minimum. The difficulty comes from the fights, not hard to make multi jumps.
- Experience can be lost on Death, but can be regained
- spots to reach to "save" progression
- Intricate level design, with multiple roads and shortcuts.
- Heals are limited
Somewhat defining
- Character Creation
- Statistics to increase
- Classes with specialties that alter the play style deeply
- Asynch communication with other players (through notes/ death anim...)
- Coop and PVp
Optional
- Silent protag
- NG+
Great thread, I appreciate the effort put into it.
On that note BB is a Souls game, there no such thing as Soulsborne.
I really don't know how you can discount Blasphemous.
It's very Souls-like in almost every way except for stamina based combat. It even has bonfires and estus flasks. Blasphemous' map is also far more Souls like than most Metroidvanias, focusing mostly on shortcuts back to familiar areas rather than paths blocked by lack of powerups.
It's very Souls-like in almost every way except for stamina based combat. It even has bonfires and estus flasks. Blasphemous' map is also far more Souls like than most Metroidvanias, focusing mostly on shortcuts back to familiar areas rather than paths blocked by lack of powerups.
OP
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Underrated post
Oh wow. Bonfires and Estus? Really? If only I addressed that in my post... :P
I'd argue that #7 is the most signature "core experience" listed here. The pressure to retrieve or potentially lose xp forever upon death is what seems uniquely Souls to me, and is why I think it's weighted heavily enough by fans as a Souls-like metric that Hollow Knight almost universally received Souls-like comparisons upon release.
If a game makes me feel a bit of the warm fuzzy feeling inside that Dark Souls 1 does every time I boot it up, then it gets to be a Souls-like. Just because Miyazaki didn't invent the tropes independently doesn't mean he didn't invent the perfect combination of them.
Q.E.D. You can't make me stop calling Hollow Knight souls-like
Q.E.D. You can't make me stop calling Hollow Knight souls-like
There's a really weird insistence that the element has to have been invented by From from some folks for it to be a staple of the genre.
Most people outside of pedants will know what you mean when describing Blasphemous or w/e as Soulslike.
I agree, the bonfire system (and how resting respawns all the enemies) is one of the key elements I associate with Souls-like games.
It's a cornerstone. The choice between restoring your resources (and spending them in some cases) and having to deal with renewed enemies in your way is a key part. Most other game styles don't give you any control over that.
I mean, I don't think saying some mechanic pre-dates Dark Souls is relevant.
Was Metroid the first game to have it's open exporation structure? No. But it popularized it. Same with Dark Souls. All its elements existed in other fashions before but the combination of gameplay mechanics, storytelling, and structure made it a hit which other people have imitated.
Was Metroid the first game to have it's open exporation structure? No. But it popularized it. Same with Dark Souls. All its elements existed in other fashions before but the combination of gameplay mechanics, storytelling, and structure made it a hit which other people have imitated.
OP
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Eh I dunno, losing your geo in HK isn't even THAT big of a deal because of how rarely you spend it.
As an aside, it's interesting how no one ever talks about the other penalties for dying found in Souls games, possibly because they are only found in Souls games and not in Souls-likes: the HP reduction/hollowing.
- In Demon's Souls, your max HP instantly is cut by 50%. You can mitigate that with a ring to reach 75% but that uses a ring slot. You also lose the ability to summon (or be invaded), but you can attempt to regain that by successfully completing an invasion or a coop session. On the flipside, you gain stealth, and your character does more damage.
- In Dark Souls, you only lose the summoning benefits, and you also turn ugly (mitigated by wearing a helmet). Dark Souls is the "nicest" Souls game there.
- In Dark Souls 2, you lose 5% of your max HP, capping at 50% total (more if your sin level is high but that'll only be on regular invading players). You also turn uglier and uglier. And you can't summon but you can STILL be invaded. DS2 is the "meanest" one here.
- In Dark Souls 3, you just lose 25% of your max HP and lose the ability to summon. If you have Dark Sigils you also turn uglier.
- In Bloodborne there's no further penalty, making it the exception.
Sure I can
fingers hovers the ban button
I kid, I kid
OR DO I
Poor furtive Demon's Souls, so easily forgotten...
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Hopefully not with bonfires and estus so that I can say HAH IN YOUR FACE
I'm pretty liberal on my souls-likes but even I'm not sure if I can get behind Dead Cells or MonHun.
You can't stop me!
You're spot on with Hyper Light Drifter though.
...as I read this discussion I'm starting to realize that my favorite thing about Dark Souls (and what therefore reminds me the most of it) is that it has basically no plot. All this time I guess that's what I really wanted.
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Hello my rebellious kin
You can't stop me!
re: the thread itself, I'd probably agree on mostly everything. Can't really argue against those points. I place much more emphasis on just a general feeling evoked by a game though personally, which I think would be a combination of a lack of handholding, punishing difficulty and nonlinear level design. That's very very loose but I'm reluctant to add weighted combat or RPG mechanics to that as well since I really feel as though Sekiro still fits itself, I got nearly exact feelings there as I did with Souls. There's probably more to it that I can't quantify because that's just way too broad but I'm not sure what it would be exactly. Perhaps it's better to call some of those games Souls adjacent.
Team Cherry did say specifically that they were not inspired by dark souls (https://www.mcvuk.com/when-we-made-hollow-knight/) but the reality is that even if they weren't, dark souls presented some, let's say, common ideas they had first and will always be compared to dark souls as a result. The one thing that actually led me to believe hollow knight was souls-like was corpse running which very few games outside of souls-likes do.
Everyone should watch Game Maker's toolkit on this same subject though. The one thing I'll say is that not all games need to meet all those conditions to be called a souls-like because it limits the evolution of the genre like Mark mentioned in his video.
Everyone should watch Game Maker's toolkit on this same subject though. The one thing I'll say is that not all games need to meet all those conditions to be called a souls-like because it limits the evolution of the genre like Mark mentioned in his video.
Where is the "regain your souls upon reaching the spot you last died at" in the OP? That feels like a big part of the Souls experience.
I also don't think character creator, different builds and weapons are a necessity for being a Souls like since you can ignore all of that and stick to one weapon that works for you and go through the game without much problem (as long as you upgrade that weapon).
I also don't think character creator, different builds and weapons are a necessity for being a Souls like since you can ignore all of that and stick to one weapon that works for you and go through the game without much problem (as long as you upgrade that weapon).
I don't consider Nioh a Souls-like either. You can play it that way if that is your thing but you are also missing a huge chunk of the game which is much closer to character action games, Diablo and Destiny.
The more you play the further it gets away from a Souls-like. Post Hino-enma I think the game becomes something else, but up until that point it does feel a lot like one.
The more you play the further it gets away from a Souls-like. Post Hino-enma I think the game becomes something else, but up until that point it does feel a lot like one.