We all know the Dark Souls of Bad Comparisons. But this thread isn't about that, as easy as it is to make fun of.
It's about what actually DOES make a game a "Souls-like". This has been on my mind lately because I've seen pretty textbook examples of pure Metroidvania games like Hollow Knight and Blasphemous get called "Souls-likes".
And since this annoys me, I am here to make the case that they are, in fact, absolutely not "Souls-likes", even if they draw inspiration from Souls games. (Scroll down for tl;dr version but no drive-bys please and thank you~)
- Inspiration from Game X doesn't mean being in the same genre as Game X -
This is particularly true if the inspiration comes from things that are not game mechanics, such as story, atmosphere, or soundtrack. If I make a funny platformer with influence from Monkey Island in terms of art style and humorous dialogue, I am not making a "Monkey Island-like". If I make a brooding, dark fantasy turn-based RPG with minimalistic storytelling and lots of lore in item descriptions, I am not making a "Souls-like".
But it's also the case if the influence in the game mechanics are simple things that prop up the gameplay, rather than its core mechanics. For example, most action games have a healing system of some sort. You can have health instant pick-ups, finite consumables (can be from found loot, enemy drops, purchased, crafted, etc), regenerating health, cooldown healing abilities, and rechargeable consumables (like the Estus system). A first-person shooter with rechargeable medkits might have taken inspiration from the Estus system, and it might have health stations that act as checkpoints that respawn enemies, but it's still not a "Souls-like". You need more than simple inspiration to make your game a "Souls-like".
- Misattributed origins -
Another thing to consider is that a lot of things credited to Souls games either did not originate in those games, or they are far from the only games that have those things. Let's look at a few of those that are often credited to Souls games:
- So what DOES make a game a Souls-like? Aka the "core experience" -
To really be called that, the game would have to share not just a significant amount of common attributes with Souls games, but more importantly, the core experience should be strongly similar. A "Souls-like" should then refer to a melee-driven, 3rd-person action-RPG set in a semi/non-linear world with the following core gameplay loop being closely matched (#1, #7 and #8 are negotiable, but the rest isn't, IMO):
1- create and customize your character;
2- carefully explore an intricately designed level (usually with lots of shortcuts looping back to save points/safe areas) with minimal to non-existing hand-holding (e.g. no map, no markers, no journal/quest log, no NPCs spelling things out for you plainly, etc.);
3- survive challenging enemy encounters, traps and ambushes, with often particularly nasty bosses;
4- combat system is stamina-based, methodical, primarily melee-driven, focusing on blocking and/or evading and a "hit and run" style rather than being based on combo streaks or button mashing;
5- vast variety of weapons, spells and/or tools that fit your playstyle, each with significant differences, strengths and drawbacks;
6- build up your character accordingly with stats/levels and gear upgrades, as in, a proper action-RPG;
7- suffer hardship and punishing loss when you mess up (XP/currency loss on death, sometimes more);
8- (optional, but still a "staple") coop/PVP: help or combat other players or read their messages through its unique online system.
Note that I didn't mention bonfires or Estus and their equivalents (I'll call them that for short, even if they are called "shrine" or "elixir" or whatever), because honestly... they are not even a Souls staple! Neither Demon's Souls nor Bloodborne use this system, and other than the Dark Souls trilogy itself, they are clearly their closest kin. But they fit all of the above. A lot of Souls-likes do use the Estus/bonfire system though, admittedly.
Now let's take a look at games commonly described as Souls-likes and see how they match (it is not an indication of the game's quality!):
- Bloodborne: well duh.
- Salt and Sanctuary: it matches 99% of the above (only fails at being 3rd person/3D which is admittedly major), + Estus/bonfires, parrying, equip burden, shields with "stability", covenants you can rank up in (called "creeds"), obscure NPC side-quests, bleak/dark fantasy setting, no map, coop and user-messages. Despite being 2D, which is arguably a major difference towards the core experience, it's so similar in all other aspects that I have no problem calling it a Souls-like as well as a Metroidvania. It's the only 2D game so far that I'd comfortably call that, though.
- Lords of the Fallen: very close. No character creation, but everything else fits. In addition it also does feature: parrying/riposte (IIRC, been 5 years since I played it), equip burden, and the dark fantasy setting. It has no coop/PVP, however.
- The Surge: see above. Just a different setting. (Can't remember if it has equip burden.)
- Nioh: same as LotF: no character creation in Nioh 1 (much deeper customization than LotF though), yes in 2. Levels are also very stand-alone and not interconnected, but so was Demon's Souls. Everything else fits 100% + also feat. parry/riposte, bonfires, Estus, equip burden, coop, and PvP.
- Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice: it fits points #2 (partially, traversal is generally very different), #3 and #7, and it has bonfires and Estus... but I say no, because #4 is completely different (it's rhythm based with just 1 weapon), it's very much action-focused with jumping and fast-paced traversal, and it lacks the RPG elements which are part of the core experience. Playing Sekiro is a fundamentally different experience than playing a Souls game.
- Monster Hunter: fits #1, #4, #5, partially #6 and arguably #7 (resources wasted). But not only does it predate Souls games, it has a completely different mission structure and gameplay loop. Hard no.
- Hollow Knight: fits #2 (partially, since it has a map), #3, and 7. It has minimalistic storytelling and is "lore-driven". That's it. While there is clearly some inspiration there, it's not a Souls-like, but a pure Metroidvania.
- Blasphemous: hell nah (pun intended). Similar to Hollow Knight, it's a pure Metroidvania.
- Death's Gambit: maybe? It fails at #1, and isn't great at #5 (weapon variety is there but kinda minimal) and it's a single-player Metroidvania, but largely matches the rest. Soft yes. Despite that, playing it didn't feel quite like playing a Souls-like though, but this is probably the 2D presentation being a big factor here.
- Code Vein: Yes. Fits all of the list. Also parries, equip burden, Estus, bonfires. Ironically, it's probably the worst game in the list despite being the most Souls-like of non-From games.
- Cuphead or (insert any difficult game here): plz go away
I have not played these, but here would be my guesses, based on what I know, footage I saw, etc (so feel free to correct me!):
- Ashen: Probably a yes, from what I heard
- Remnant: From the Ashes: looks like a no. 3rd person shooter, procedural generation... this seems too fundamentally different an experience.
- Darkmaus: not sure. All the reviews on Steam say yes, but I admit the footage leaves me rather unconvinced. It honestly seems like the comparison is a bit of a stretch, but I dunno.
- To reiterate: this is not a statement of quality / "So why do you even care?" -
I feel the need to repeat this, just in case someone thinks I'm "gatekeeping" or whatever. But obviously, being a Souls-like doesn't mean the game is good, and not being one doesn't mean the game is bad. Hollow Knight and Sekiro are among my all-time favourite games, but The Surge bored me and that Code Vein demo was pretty awful all-around.
So why do I even care? Good question! Who cares about labels, just enjoy what you like, a good game is a good game regardless of genre etc. Welllll.... yes, of course. But labels and genres still matter, and are useful descriptors when analyzing/discussing games or seeking recommendations and whatnot... but only if they are accurate. I've had people tell me they avoided Hollow Knight for the longest time because they thought it was a Souls-like and they hate Dark Souls, which is pretty tragic!
If you love Souls games like me, it's good to know if a game is really a Souls-like or just something that draws some influence. If you hate Souls games, it's also good to know what you should still check out (some inspiration shouldn't deter you) and what you should avoid.
-------------
tl;dr version
Bloodborne, Salt and Sanctuary, Nioh, Lords of the Fallen, The Surge, Code Vein are Souls-likes.
Sekiro, Hollow Knight, Blasphemous are not despite drawing influence and sharing some superficial similarities.
And the reason lies in the fundamental gameplay experience in those games. \o/
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk
Umbasa. |o_
It's about what actually DOES make a game a "Souls-like". This has been on my mind lately because I've seen pretty textbook examples of pure Metroidvania games like Hollow Knight and Blasphemous get called "Souls-likes".
And since this annoys me, I am here to make the case that they are, in fact, absolutely not "Souls-likes", even if they draw inspiration from Souls games. (Scroll down for tl;dr version but no drive-bys please and thank you~)
- Inspiration from Game X doesn't mean being in the same genre as Game X -
This is particularly true if the inspiration comes from things that are not game mechanics, such as story, atmosphere, or soundtrack. If I make a funny platformer with influence from Monkey Island in terms of art style and humorous dialogue, I am not making a "Monkey Island-like". If I make a brooding, dark fantasy turn-based RPG with minimalistic storytelling and lots of lore in item descriptions, I am not making a "Souls-like".
But it's also the case if the influence in the game mechanics are simple things that prop up the gameplay, rather than its core mechanics. For example, most action games have a healing system of some sort. You can have health instant pick-ups, finite consumables (can be from found loot, enemy drops, purchased, crafted, etc), regenerating health, cooldown healing abilities, and rechargeable consumables (like the Estus system). A first-person shooter with rechargeable medkits might have taken inspiration from the Estus system, and it might have health stations that act as checkpoints that respawn enemies, but it's still not a "Souls-like". You need more than simple inspiration to make your game a "Souls-like".
- Misattributed origins -
Another thing to consider is that a lot of things credited to Souls games either did not originate in those games, or they are far from the only games that have those things. Let's look at a few of those that are often credited to Souls games:
- Minimalistic storytelling (in an otherwise modern, AA or AAA game), focus on "lore". Ico and Shadow of the Colossus should be credited for that before Souls games, certainly. (Fun fact, they actually inspired Miyazaki himself!)
- Dark fantasy setting. This one annoys me to no end. Dark/gothic fantasy existed long before Demon's Souls. Don't get me wrong, I love this genre, it's probably my favourite setting really. And sure, Souls games have their own twist to the genre, which is great. But it existed way back with Diablo 1 and Legacy of Kain and even Castlevania. Souls games did not invent creepy, crumbling castles, dark broody swamps or shambling grotesqueries. Or mimics. I've legit seen people go "it's like Dark Souls!" because a game had mimics.
- Methodical combat with unique weapon movesets and weighted animations: let me tell you about Monster Hunter...
- Obtuse NPCs sidequests: that is, NPCs with non-listed (as in, no quest log etc., just individual stories you can affect through often obscure means) sidequests/stories. This is common in many JRPGs.
- Parrying/counter system. Yes, I've seen this touted as a "Souls-like" feature. C'mon now.
- So what DOES make a game a Souls-like? Aka the "core experience" -
To really be called that, the game would have to share not just a significant amount of common attributes with Souls games, but more importantly, the core experience should be strongly similar. A "Souls-like" should then refer to a melee-driven, 3rd-person action-RPG set in a semi/non-linear world with the following core gameplay loop being closely matched (#1, #7 and #8 are negotiable, but the rest isn't, IMO):
1- create and customize your character;
2- carefully explore an intricately designed level (usually with lots of shortcuts looping back to save points/safe areas) with minimal to non-existing hand-holding (e.g. no map, no markers, no journal/quest log, no NPCs spelling things out for you plainly, etc.);
3- survive challenging enemy encounters, traps and ambushes, with often particularly nasty bosses;
4- combat system is stamina-based, methodical, primarily melee-driven, focusing on blocking and/or evading and a "hit and run" style rather than being based on combo streaks or button mashing;
5- vast variety of weapons, spells and/or tools that fit your playstyle, each with significant differences, strengths and drawbacks;
6- build up your character accordingly with stats/levels and gear upgrades, as in, a proper action-RPG;
7- suffer hardship and punishing loss when you mess up (XP/currency loss on death, sometimes more);
8- (optional, but still a "staple") coop/PVP: help or combat other players or read their messages through its unique online system.
Note that I didn't mention bonfires or Estus and their equivalents (I'll call them that for short, even if they are called "shrine" or "elixir" or whatever), because honestly... they are not even a Souls staple! Neither Demon's Souls nor Bloodborne use this system, and other than the Dark Souls trilogy itself, they are clearly their closest kin. But they fit all of the above. A lot of Souls-likes do use the Estus/bonfire system though, admittedly.
Now let's take a look at games commonly described as Souls-likes and see how they match (it is not an indication of the game's quality!):
- Bloodborne: well duh.
- Salt and Sanctuary: it matches 99% of the above (only fails at being 3rd person/3D which is admittedly major), + Estus/bonfires, parrying, equip burden, shields with "stability", covenants you can rank up in (called "creeds"), obscure NPC side-quests, bleak/dark fantasy setting, no map, coop and user-messages. Despite being 2D, which is arguably a major difference towards the core experience, it's so similar in all other aspects that I have no problem calling it a Souls-like as well as a Metroidvania. It's the only 2D game so far that I'd comfortably call that, though.
- Lords of the Fallen: very close. No character creation, but everything else fits. In addition it also does feature: parrying/riposte (IIRC, been 5 years since I played it), equip burden, and the dark fantasy setting. It has no coop/PVP, however.
- The Surge: see above. Just a different setting. (Can't remember if it has equip burden.)
- Nioh: same as LotF: no character creation in Nioh 1 (much deeper customization than LotF though), yes in 2. Levels are also very stand-alone and not interconnected, but so was Demon's Souls. Everything else fits 100% + also feat. parry/riposte, bonfires, Estus, equip burden, coop, and PvP.
- Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice: it fits points #2 (partially, traversal is generally very different), #3 and #7, and it has bonfires and Estus... but I say no, because #4 is completely different (it's rhythm based with just 1 weapon), it's very much action-focused with jumping and fast-paced traversal, and it lacks the RPG elements which are part of the core experience. Playing Sekiro is a fundamentally different experience than playing a Souls game.
- Monster Hunter: fits #1, #4, #5, partially #6 and arguably #7 (resources wasted). But not only does it predate Souls games, it has a completely different mission structure and gameplay loop. Hard no.
- Hollow Knight: fits #2 (partially, since it has a map), #3, and 7. It has minimalistic storytelling and is "lore-driven". That's it. While there is clearly some inspiration there, it's not a Souls-like, but a pure Metroidvania.
- Blasphemous: hell nah (pun intended). Similar to Hollow Knight, it's a pure Metroidvania.
- Death's Gambit: maybe? It fails at #1, and isn't great at #5 (weapon variety is there but kinda minimal) and it's a single-player Metroidvania, but largely matches the rest. Soft yes. Despite that, playing it didn't feel quite like playing a Souls-like though, but this is probably the 2D presentation being a big factor here.
- Code Vein: Yes. Fits all of the list. Also parries, equip burden, Estus, bonfires. Ironically, it's probably the worst game in the list despite being the most Souls-like of non-From games.
- Cuphead or (insert any difficult game here): plz go away
I have not played these, but here would be my guesses, based on what I know, footage I saw, etc (so feel free to correct me!):
- Ashen: Probably a yes, from what I heard
- Remnant: From the Ashes: looks like a no. 3rd person shooter, procedural generation... this seems too fundamentally different an experience.
- Darkmaus: not sure. All the reviews on Steam say yes, but I admit the footage leaves me rather unconvinced. It honestly seems like the comparison is a bit of a stretch, but I dunno.
- To reiterate: this is not a statement of quality / "So why do you even care?" -
I feel the need to repeat this, just in case someone thinks I'm "gatekeeping" or whatever. But obviously, being a Souls-like doesn't mean the game is good, and not being one doesn't mean the game is bad. Hollow Knight and Sekiro are among my all-time favourite games, but The Surge bored me and that Code Vein demo was pretty awful all-around.
So why do I even care? Good question! Who cares about labels, just enjoy what you like, a good game is a good game regardless of genre etc. Welllll.... yes, of course. But labels and genres still matter, and are useful descriptors when analyzing/discussing games or seeking recommendations and whatnot... but only if they are accurate. I've had people tell me they avoided Hollow Knight for the longest time because they thought it was a Souls-like and they hate Dark Souls, which is pretty tragic!
If you love Souls games like me, it's good to know if a game is really a Souls-like or just something that draws some influence. If you hate Souls games, it's also good to know what you should still check out (some inspiration shouldn't deter you) and what you should avoid.
-------------
tl;dr version
Bloodborne, Salt and Sanctuary, Nioh, Lords of the Fallen, The Surge, Code Vein are Souls-likes.
Sekiro, Hollow Knight, Blasphemous are not despite drawing influence and sharing some superficial similarities.
And the reason lies in the fundamental gameplay experience in those games. \o/
Umbasa. |o_
