The show's aversion to killing off characters made it Dragon Ball Z tier boring. Stakes felt non-existent. The 'Pain attacks the Village' arc resolution was when I completely mentally checked out.
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What kind of fate should Sasuke have suffered?
- Thread starter DragonSJG
- Start date
The show's aversion to killing off characters made it Dragon Ball Z tier boring. Stakes felt non-existent. The 'Pain attacks the Village' arc resolution was when I completely mentally checked out.
But he had a demon inside of him!.... and then the demons all became friends too
If only there was some anti-hero out there who was willing to kill the kazekage and raikage etc. for the wrongs of their past...
oh wait...
This is a bad 'gotcha' attempt, lol.
You can agree with someone's opinions on certain 'political' figures, but also think that same character is poorly conceived and they all don't deserve redemption. It's that lack of nuance/strict absolution that makes Naruto so lame. It's always "everyone needs to be save-able!" all the time. It sanitizes the hell out of the backdrop of the show: War.
That's like thinking Kylo Ren's redemption is totally cool, because at least he hated/killed Snoke. Like... nah, lmao.
Nah, it would only be as bad as Kylo's arc if they actually did kill off Sasuke, instead of having him basically dedicate the rest of his life to redeeming himself....
That's exactly why it works much better than RoTS in this case.
And it wasn't really supposed to be a gotcha moment, just found it kinda funny that you seem to be coming full circle and saying that Sasuke was right?
In respect to the fact that the 'bad guys' needed to be killed and are not capable of redemption at least.
Lol, acting like people were upset at Kylo because he died certainly is a take.....
But anyway, I literally just said you can agree with an individual sentiment someone says but disagree with everything else. There's no 'coming full circle'. It's a consistent line of thought I've made for 3 posts in a row, now.
You could have saved us both time by just saying you don't like my vision for the show, instead of trying to point out an imaginary inconsistency.
Yeah, your vision just seems a bit all over the place IMHO!
You state that he should have died or become hokage (without doubling down after learning the truth) and then state that the show's aversion to killing and strict absolution is what you dislike about the show.
But isn't that exactly what Sasuke was selling at the end of the series when he doubled down?
Naruto ends up convincing him otherwise through the power of shonen friendship, but I thought it was a fairly interesting dichotomy in the framework of a kids manga/anime.
I'm actually glad you want me to explain my position.
To your first point, its actually both to me, haha! I think the show didn't take enough risks, at it's heart. Partly on Kishimoto, partly on being a shonen-ass shonen. I think there was an avenue for making Sasuke's 'redemption' really organic if he wasn't completely engulfed in rage, paving a path for a subversion of the protagonist's journey, leading to an actual twist with Sasuke becoming Hokage and breaking the chain of Uchiha marginalization (I think they're finally exploring that idea in Boruto with Sasuke's kid, sorta? but the franchise no longer grips the zeitgeist like it used to).
Alternatively, when he became obsessed with killing, there's no real body count to his terrorist plans (or in the entire show, for that matter) so everything felt weightless to me, in a show that's supposed to partly takes place in a war. Having Sasuke give his life in the end against Kaguya/Madara, after actually exacting 'righteous' vengeance against other war criminals would have been bittersweet, but also would have showed that real war is messy and terrible for everyone involved. There's no simple binary, and people, who believe they have pure intentions, can take life too. (I think this is partly why the Zabuza/Haku arc from OG Naruto was so popular. There was a greyness to the fights, and people died, if for nothing else but corporeal atonement for their in-universe crimes.)
My problem with the show: it tried to have it's cake and eat it too. It wanted the redemption story, but it also wanted the messy war story, but it also also didn't want popular fan characters to die off, so it ultimately underwhelmed me on all points.
Perhaps a lot of my gripes come down to the manga/show, really trying to do a story about war, but also do a story that was accessible for younger children. I hope this slightly longer form explanation makes my position make a little more sense.
Edit: I'm just realizing that you may think I wanted the Leaf village to death sentence Sasuke, after the fighting ended. Sorry if I didn't explain that before. I felt that he should have been KIA, near the end of the story.
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Yeah, that makes a lot more sense and I was misunderstanding you in thinking you wanted the village to execute him at the end.
That is the one stance that always throws me in these discussions because it basically validates all the bullshit the Kages have done over the decades
by executing one of the only people who was trying to bring their sins to light.
I do definitely agree that they didn't really go all-in on Sasuke and his terrorist plots, and that is one reason why I always scratch my head at these threads because the worst thing he is guilty of is attempted murder!
I think that part is kind of bereft of the weight you are looking for because Kishimoto of course always had redemption in mind for the character so wasn't going to go too far with it.
Haha, ok now I see how that made little sense before.
Yea, I've come to terms that Sasuke's redemption was likely always in the cards. But I'm just annoyed at the thought of the cooler directions I believe the story could have gone. But at that point, it just becomes me whining about the what the show isn't.
Plenty of characters die in Naruto. Saying the show has an aversion to killing off characters is just not true.
The show's aversion to killing off characters made it Dragon Ball Z tier boring. Stakes felt non-existent. The 'Pain attacks the Village' arc resolution was when I completely mentally checked out.
"If you ever fall asleep I'll kill you and your whole fucking family!"
*Now*
"I live in a teapot and love you all."
In practical terms, he's fine. Like, he's powerful enough that you can't imprison him, you probably can't kill him, and he's significantly more valuable as an ally than an enemy. Being a premiere black ops agent makes sense.
It's more the lack of social consequences - he shouldn't be married, he shouldn't have a kid. Whenever he walks into a room, people should be like "oh it's THAT fucking guy." People should be kind of wary about Naruto's judgment in keeping him so close. He should be a real outcast.
And ultimately that would make for an interesting dynamic in Boruto, where you have a main character that didn't experience his crimes firsthand, but does have some sort of relationship with him. But at that point it's a whole other thing.
It's more the lack of social consequences - he shouldn't be married, he shouldn't have a kid. Whenever he walks into a room, people should be like "oh it's THAT fucking guy." People should be kind of wary about Naruto's judgment in keeping him so close. He should be a real outcast.
And ultimately that would make for an interesting dynamic in Boruto, where you have a main character that didn't experience his crimes firsthand, but does have some sort of relationship with him. But at that point it's a whole other thing.
I'm not talking about literal nameless soldiers, man. I mean regular (as in reoccurring) characters. Non-villians with actual lines. It's like 3rd Hokage, Neji, and Jiraya over 500+ episodes? The show's aversion to killing regular characters (who are often relegated to B-plots anyway) is definitely a thing.
Definitely more than that even if you don't count villains. Asuma, Inoichi, and Shikaku are the first to come to mind. And almost every flashback has somebody die often in fairly terrible fashion. Rin, Tobirama, Shisui, Minato, Kushima...
I never said anything about nameless soldiers. Don't know where you're coming from with that.
Yes there's Hiruzen, Neji and Jiraiya, which I'd argue is enough for over 500+ episodes. A show doesn't need to kill X amount of characters to be of a certain quality. Each of those deaths happen in a major arc due to the actions of a major villain; Orochimaru, Obito and Pain respectively so I'd argue that absolutely sets up stakes for some of the most important villains.
There's no need for the show to kill off a bunch of its regular characters to have stakes. In fact, if you do it too much it loses its impact because you expect people to die and grow numb to it. Even then; Hayate, Asuma, Shikaku, and Inoichi die to name a few. That's not mentioning characters who die in the past which count because they very much play into the stakes of the current story events. I don't know how many characters a show needs to kill in order for it not to be "adverse" to killing off characters. If you want to speak of an anime that is adverse to killing off characters, look to something like Fairy Tail. Naruto is definitely not adverse to it.
What were they supposed to do? Kill him? They did that, he came back. Then he got super-killed. He came back anyway.
Putting a leash on him and telling him to be less awful and they'll play nice is probably as good as it gets.
Yeah, Naruto didn't really shy away from depicting the consequences of war, at least in terms of how it defined and shaped the social and psychological aspects of the Ninja world. Death is omnipresent throughout the series, even if the most central characters didn't die. Take the Uchiha's story which is steeped in death - their whole destiny and path is interwoven with the traumas of witnessing and being part of murder and war. Itachi partly became somewhat broken because he saw too much death as a child. The same goes for pretty much every other main member of the clan.
I think the way death and war are portrayed in Naruto is actually pretty heavy for children's media. Having Naruto basically be a trauma counsellor as his heroic persona is part of what I like so much about it, even if I find his personality annoying outside of that. Naruto is unique to me in that some of the villains are defeated through talking through their trauma and bringing them around to see what that's made them into.
I think the way death and war are portrayed in Naruto is actually pretty heavy for children's media. Having Naruto basically be a trauma counsellor as his heroic persona is part of what I like so much about it, even if I find his personality annoying outside of that. Naruto is unique to me in that some of the villains are defeated through talking through their trauma and bringing them around to see what that's made them into.
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I mean so was Sasuke. He certainly wasn't an adult before he went bad and back to being good.
And Gaara's bodycount is way higher than Sasuke's since he was just nabbing randoms from the Sand Village to murder.
Basically....if you're cool with Gaara's redemption story then you should be cool with Sasuke's. It's only that Sasuke isn't as likeable as Gaara (at least in Naruto Shippuden) that gets people riled up.
I don't even think Sasuke would ever want to start up again. His revelation during and after the final battle with Naruto was basically 'whoa, you love me that much bro?' and that was what was finally needed to pull him out of where he'd been for so long - with some of the preceding stuff with Itachi, the Kages, etc paving the way.
Well Naruto does say in a Boruto flashback that hardly anybody hates Sasuke anymore which would mean that he was hated in Konoha at some point until he worked out of that like Gaara did.
There's nothing wrong with Sasuke having a kid but maybe it should be a result of a one night stand rather than via marriage even if it was with Sakura because I can't see him having a one night stand with Karin or even some other random girl.
It really does feel fitting though that Kishimoto's two orphan protagonists have families at the end of the story though.
Not sure why anyone would even want Sasuke imprisoned for life or killed or something. He's far too useful. One of the strongest in the world, helped win the war despite causing a lot of shit, etc.
I always feel like people overthink this one. Under the watchful eye of Naruto and in his employ is exactly where he should be. And that doesn't factor in trying to change the future of the Uchiha clan by not re-starting it with bad blood.
I always feel like people overthink this one. Under the watchful eye of Naruto and in his employ is exactly where he should be. And that doesn't factor in trying to change the future of the Uchiha clan by not re-starting it with bad blood.
Orochimaru is also an asset to the village that they would use if they needed to. Orochimaru was a huge reason they even won the war.
That as well.
With Orochimaru the choice was either use him for the good of the village, or kill him, making an enemy of him. And as shown, death is just an inconvenience to the guy.
So small trouble that you can manage and benefit from or large, sudden, vengeful, snake-themed trouble later. It's not a choice, really.
As far as Konoha goes Sauce's best friend is in control and is the most well liked person on the planet, basically being Ninja Jesus.
Also he killed Danzo, which if anything just benefited Konoha. So what if he killed some lame ass ninja and samurai at some fancy Kage party?
Most people weren't even around for the final battle with Naruto so they don't know he tried to take over the world.
Also he killed Danzo, which if anything just benefited Konoha. So what if he killed some lame ass ninja and samurai at some fancy Kage party?
Most people weren't even around for the final battle with Naruto so they don't know he tried to take over the world.
The Sasuke forgiveness is like when the United States recruited Nazis for the CIA and operation paperclip program after the war. Konoha considers him too much of an asset to rightfully rot in prison. The same goes for Orochimaru
Yeah it's funny that so many people can only think in terms of retributive justice. Having someone be reformed into a productive member of society is unacceptable. He has to be punished in order to satisfy their weird bloodlust for a fictional character.
In all honesty had he not married Sakura what happened to him in the end would have been fine lol. It's just all the stuff he did to Sakura across the series that makes them ending up together baffling. Could have had him find someone when he is off journeying for years and told a little story about how they met and fell in love. That would have been more believable then the punching bag that is Sakura and Sasuke getting together.
Or you go with the correct paring which is The Sauce and Naruto. The two have enough sexual tension to trigger the 5th great ninja war.
People still hating on my boi sasuke. They mad because he's a real one. He lives in a world constantly at war/proxy wars. He fits right the fuck in. Since a child, he was made into a boy soldier and actually encouraged to kill (efficiently, I might add) because he has latent abilities.
He made the right decisions based on what he was told and what he experienced and just reacted to a bad situation. And still managed to save everyone's ass at the end.
Yall just mad cuz he is cute. :'3 I love you SASUKEEEEEEE -KUNNNNNNNN
He made the right decisions based on what he was told and what he experienced and just reacted to a bad situation. And still managed to save everyone's ass at the end.
Yall just mad cuz he is cute. :'3 I love you SASUKEEEEEEE -KUNNNNNNNN
He killed a bunch of Samurai at the Kage summit and technically killed a head of state that no one liked and had basically usurped his role.
Sasuke had the right idea but Kishimoto can't write for shit so it got bunked along the way. This becomes extremely blatant since Sasuke tries to perform a Zero Requiem (Code Geass) at the end to give them a reason for him and Naruto to have one final clash because reasons.
Plus while Sasuke's INITIAL conclusion is reasonable, it starts to crumble when you have him massacring the Samurai. Also majority of the people that had a hand in what happened to the Uchiha are already dead except Homura and Koharu. The worst part about all of this is, Kishimoto touches on all this early on in the series (Zabuza Arc) then does fuck all with afterwards lol.
Ideally Sasuke should've died in that final altercation, but in an ideal world Kishimoto would've wrote something better that has the ninja world actually grappling with the shit Sasuke & Nagato bring up outside of filler content.
Also it was kind of fucked that Kishimoto wrote the Uchiha's into being genetically predisposed to anger and violence to vindicate Tobirama's racism and adding on to the overall eugenics shitfest that is this story.
Plus while Sasuke's INITIAL conclusion is reasonable, it starts to crumble when you have him massacring the Samurai. Also majority of the people that had a hand in what happened to the Uchiha are already dead except Homura and Koharu. The worst part about all of this is, Kishimoto touches on all this early on in the series (Zabuza Arc) then does fuck all with afterwards lol.
Ideally Sasuke should've died in that final altercation, but in an ideal world Kishimoto would've wrote something better that has the ninja world actually grappling with the shit Sasuke & Nagato bring up outside of filler content.
Also it was kind of fucked that Kishimoto wrote the Uchiha's into being genetically predisposed to anger and violence to vindicate Tobirama's racism and adding on to the overall eugenics shitfest that is this story.
I mean, it sort of does get dealt with when Naruto is in charge because everyone loves and trusts him. When he dies though the world is going to shit again.
True I'm just genuinely interested in how long they think Naruto's cult of personality is gonna get them by lol.
In the anime they actually threw him in prison with some special sealing helmet designed to keep his eyes in check (like that would actually do anything for the Rinnegan lol, but Sasuke was probably ok with playing along). Granted it was only for around a year(?), but it was *something* at least.