Ice Cap isn't even an MJ issue, it's a Jetzons issue. The music rights for Sonic 3 are a mess.
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What is the future of Sonic 3 And Knuckles?
- Thread starter Mekanos
- Start date
Ice Cap isn't even an MJ issue, it's a Jetzons issue. The music rights for Sonic 3 are a mess.
Namiki would be fantastic. The new track he did for Outrun 3DS/Switch was great, and Fantasy Zone II DX is basically a good ass remix album attatched to an equally good ass remake.
If he owns the rights to the songs, then his name has to be associated with them somewhere. If not, then how would anyone know he owns them?
Remake the entire game in the Sonic Mania engine. I would actually like the sprites for this remake of Sonic 3 to be the ones from Mania since I think Mania's sprites nails Sonic's look better than the sprites from the original game. Make a new soundtrack for the tracks that cause legal issues (I believe there are only three zones that cause trouble from Sonic 3). Have Teelopes remix every other song from the original game. Add other playable characters that weren't originally in Sonic 3 like Amy, Mighty, Ray, etc. Also give everyone their hyper forms back (and Tails gets his Flicky army of death back).
Another option is to go the full blown remake route and have Lizard Cube/Dot Emu remake the entire game with hand drawn 2D art.
Another option is to go the full blown remake route and have Lizard Cube/Dot Emu remake the entire game with hand drawn 2D art.
Assuming there is an uncredited MJ song in the game, there would have to be some sort of a deal between Sega and MJ back in the day. That's somewhere, and thus SEGA (anyone) would know.
I first experienced S3K on PC, so put me in the "replace the music" camp.
If anyone really cares that much, they've got a million different ways to play the game with it still there.
If anyone really cares that much, they've got a million different ways to play the game with it still there.
If the deal was that he owned the copyrights to the songs then the information would have to be public by law. He could have put the copyright in another name or a LLC, but given that people have been coming through everything for 25 years trying to prove he was involved with the game they would have discovered something by now.
Yeah it's sad how the best Sonic game is not going to be on the Genesis Mini, I was expecting it with the last patch of games.
It really is baffling how they keep it that way when it's an issue they already fixed with the old PC port, like, if you're afraid of some backlash, a bit of a backlash is better than not having the game appear anywhere since 2011. Unless there's more to the story than just the music..
But hey, at least the Steam version is still up, and the recent fan HD remaster is great.
It really is baffling how they keep it that way when it's an issue they already fixed with the old PC port, like, if you're afraid of some backlash, a bit of a backlash is better than not having the game appear anywhere since 2011. Unless there's more to the story than just the music..
But hey, at least the Steam version is still up, and the recent fan HD remaster is great.
I think part of the problem is probably SEGA management's own incompetence that they may legitimately not know for sure if Michael Jackson's songs are still in the game or not. The guy in charge of STI during that time insists the songs were removed before original Sonic 3 even came out, but the evidence of how similar some of the songs sound to MJ's own music contradict this.
I think the issue isn't that SEGA knows MJ's estate owns these tracks. I think they have no clue if they do or not, and do not want to invite a lawsuit that could on for years to reveal that SEGA's internal documentation on the matter turns up a bunch of confusing nonsense because it was so long ago. It's almost like what happened with Ken Penders and Archie. There's no way that Penders didn't sign away his rights to characters he created for the Sonic comic, but Archie's own poor record-keeping resulted in no such papers being found, despite how common it is for freelance writers to sign such agreements when working on licensed properties...but now I'm getting off topic.
I think the issue isn't that SEGA knows MJ's estate owns these tracks. I think they have no clue if they do or not, and do not want to invite a lawsuit that could on for years to reveal that SEGA's internal documentation on the matter turns up a bunch of confusing nonsense because it was so long ago. It's almost like what happened with Ken Penders and Archie. There's no way that Penders didn't sign away his rights to characters he created for the Sonic comic, but Archie's own poor record-keeping resulted in no such papers being found, despite how common it is for freelance writers to sign such agreements when working on licensed properties...but now I'm getting off topic.
If the music is the issue then i have the perfect solution. Get Tee Lopes in the phone, get gim to remake the offending tracks and then the zones those tracks come from can be used in Sonic Mania 2 which Sega should definitely be making if they aren't already. 2 birds, one stone!
That sounds completely backwards. What act forces this information to be public?
It sucks i can't play it outside of Steam or my 360. I have the original cart somewhere, but the console long died. If the soundtrack is the legality, i'm sure it can be solved by remaking the music.
The issue isn't just with the MJ estate. it's also with the music producers at the time who worked with MJ as well, as well as the fact that the music that was taken out that MJ worked on, was possibly repurposed into MJs other songs, either by MJ himself (since he did some compositions on his own songs as well), or his music producer. It's a downright mess for SEGA to sort out. It's actually kind of interesting, it's probably also why Metal Gear Solid 2 and Metal Gear Solid 3 have not been re-released since last gen either, since the MGS Main Theme at the time has been found out to also be somebody else's work originally. Then there's the fact that Onimusha 1's OST had to be redone entirely because of the composer being a fraud. There's so much trouble with the legalities of these old games nowadays it seems like, since they used to get away with re-releasing these games more than they do now.
Release it with alternate music tracks and let people load custom soundtracks via the Genesis-capable VGM music format.
That's concerning copyright registrations, which are not necessary for copyright protection to kick in. You only need it to when you actually want to proceed with a certain type of US domestic lawsuit.
This one's at least resolvable. They seem pretty open about this song. It should be noted the song, at the time, was unreleased, and got re-purposed for the game. At some point, randomly, the rights holder uploaded it to Youtube, like around 2008-09, and we didn't figure it out till a couple years later about this song. Prior to that, it was always a weird question why Ice Cap got replaced.
Everything else, good freaking luck.
They can figure out the rights and release Sonic 3 & Knuckles again, as it should be, with its original soundtrack.
I'm sure it's difficult. But they can figure it out.
Until then, I won't buy any compilations or mini consoles that don't include it.
I'm sure it's difficult. But they can figure it out.
Until then, I won't buy any compilations or mini consoles that don't include it.
There's a theory somewhere on the internet that Mania is an aftermath of salvaging a Sonic 3 remake plan, which would make it kinda redundant.
I think there is still value in making a Definitive Edition of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, similar in style to the "complete" romhack that is available, especially if there is indeed legal issues plaguing the game.
Definitely. Mania is of course great, but it's no substitute for a full S3&K remaster.
Like my dream come true scenario would be a Sonic Jam-esque compilation that rolls Taxman remasters of Sonic 1, 2, CD and 3K together with Mania Plus (optional inclusion: Knuckles Chaotix).
Sort it out, do what you need to do Sega, but don't change the music. I want the original knuckles theme, carnival night, ice cap and launch base intact.
Games need to be seen as whole package, changing the tracks is not the solution, even if they get Lopes to do new ones. Sonic 3 is what it is, if you change it it's not Sonic 3 anymore.
Games need to be seen as whole package, changing the tracks is not the solution, even if they get Lopes to do new ones. Sonic 3 is what it is, if you change it it's not Sonic 3 anymore.
You know I'm right. Consider this something akin to what George Lucas did to the original SW trilogy. You just don't fuck with the classics
Not to mention that using the up and down functions are practically useless in all levels.
They change the credits too. Uses a compilation of all the stage music.
Sonic 3 AIR isn't the perfect port of Sonic 3 I'd want but it does a good job of matching the philosophy of the remakes of Sonics 1 & 2.
I mainly wish it had the 2P stages and most of the extra features from S3 Complete
I mainly wish it had the 2P stages and most of the extra features from S3 Complete
If they can come up with a solution that lets them keep that music, that's cool, but Lucas didn't make changes to Star Wars because of licensing costs. If there were three tracks in the original Star Wars that they couldn't use for some reason, they wouldn't just stop rereleasing it.
Sonic's already had this kind of thing happen anyway - Sonic CD used a totally different soundtrack for the american release and the Sonic & Knuckles Collection on PC also features different music (replacing the ones thought to be the most problematic).
Sonic CD US OST was actually a last minute marketing decision originally on Sega CD though, so it's more comparable to George Lucas. The later versions were subject to rights mess, however.
So, to be clear, your preferred solution is "Never release the game again"?
As a fan, they need to keep the music. It will make the game worse to change the music.
But as a practical and civilized human, I think they should do what they need to do to bring the game to a broader audience, up to and including removing the MJ+friends tracks. It *also* might make licensing negotiations easier (in a weird way) to get a release with the proper ost done later, since the stakes on Sega's end will be less complicated.
But as a practical and civilized human, I think they should do what they need to do to bring the game to a broader audience, up to and including removing the MJ+friends tracks. It *also* might make licensing negotiations easier (in a weird way) to get a release with the proper ost done later, since the stakes on Sega's end will be less complicated.
IDK why they can't just remix the tracks from the PC version. Or make new ones. It honestly shouldn't be treated like such a complicated issue when it's really just so easy to work around it. Like oh no we can't use Ice Cap music, better scrap this beloved game then
If it releases on Steam people can just mod it to use the OG soundtrack anyway.
If it releases on Steam people can just mod it to use the OG soundtrack anyway.
I don't know about anybody else here, but Ice Cap Zone without the music would be a tremendous step down. Like 3/4 of the appeal is the music.
Launch Pad's would be missed I guess, and they can replace Carnival Night music all they want, but Ice Cap is untouchable.
Launch Pad's would be missed I guess, and they can replace Carnival Night music all they want, but Ice Cap is untouchable.
First of all, we don't know if it's really MJ's estate or the coworkers themselves, I lean towards the latter. With that in mind
- Ice Cap is dead ringer for Hard Times
- S3 credits are closely related to Stranger in Moscow (not as much as above though)
- Launch Base, Carnival Night, S3 Knuckles and S3 Mid-boss all use the weird samples
- Versus mode menu theme, which I can't recall right now, got covered up in early PC version, together with all of the above and S3 theme and derivatives. Some of these songs had already got an S&K equivalent programmed, but that was not one of them
On the other hand, Angel Island and Hydrocity got into Mania with music intact, so they seem clear, savefile menu and Endless Mine got into Generations as well. Generally synthy songs seem safer.
There were never issues, they had a transparent financial arrangement from the beginning.
Interestingly, it sounds like Koshiro wrote a Star Light Zone soundalike for the menu medley.
I wish Sega would issue a statement explaining the whole issue so we all know for sure what's going on.
If the only way to re-release it now is to redo the music, they should get Tee Lopes to come up with new tracks and edit the ROM to include them.
I agree with everyone saying it wouldn't be the same but the alternative is no new people get to play this classic.
I will always have my original ROM and source ports/emulators to keep my memories intact.
If the only way to re-release it now is to redo the music, they should get Tee Lopes to come up with new tracks and edit the ROM to include them.
I agree with everyone saying it wouldn't be the same but the alternative is no new people get to play this classic.
I will always have my original ROM and source ports/emulators to keep my memories intact.
The people who oppose the game having new music make no sense to me
-besides Icecap, all of the good music is safe. Angel Island, Hydro City, Big Arm and just about all of the S&K music has been remade and reused in other stuff like Gens and Mania
-Besides Icecap, the music with legal issues isn't great. Carnival Night is fucking awful and would be held up as an example of how terrible modern Sonic is if it debuted in Sonic 4
-The new music will definitely be good! It's Sonic. There are legendary composers behind this series, and it's not like it'll be BioWare doing the port.
-besides Icecap, all of the good music is safe. Angel Island, Hydro City, Big Arm and just about all of the S&K music has been remade and reused in other stuff like Gens and Mania
-Besides Icecap, the music with legal issues isn't great. Carnival Night is fucking awful and would be held up as an example of how terrible modern Sonic is if it debuted in Sonic 4
-The new music will definitely be good! It's Sonic. There are legendary composers behind this series, and it's not like it'll be BioWare doing the port.
I'm glad I have these on the Xbox One as back compat games, just to have them. They're pretty horrible versions though... no proper main menu so you can't go back and do previous levels as super/hyper Sonic, very noticeable input lag (especially after playing Mania) and the music doesn't sound quite right. It's saving grace is that you can actually combine the two games unlike on that Mega Drive Ultimate Collection they brought out, which was stupid.
It has to be more than just music. Considering how popular the game is and how SEGA's been clearly open with funding classic Sonic projects I do not think sales potential or money is an issue. They have changed soundtracks before too.
I personally wish they could figure something out (preferably without replacing the music) mostly when it comes to new fans, but it is an extremely accessible game. It is extremely common, available on loads of platforms and is relatively inexpensive on all of those platforms. This is not a situation like Jet Set Radio Future or Panzer Dragoon Saga where your options are incredibly limited.
I personally wish they could figure something out (preferably without replacing the music) mostly when it comes to new fans, but it is an extremely accessible game. It is extremely common, available on loads of platforms and is relatively inexpensive on all of those platforms. This is not a situation like Jet Set Radio Future or Panzer Dragoon Saga where your options are incredibly limited.
In situations like this the owners might be requesting far more than SEGA is willing to pay, hell they might even want to own partial rights of the franchise in return for all we know. Maybe the owners just are not interested in playing ball period. We can only really guess at this point, but it is likely not a situation SEGA can pay themselves out of.
This is subjective. C,mon son, people love the music. You may not be a fan, but a big reason people want new versions of the game is because they actually adore what could potentially be replaced.
Absolutely. It will be delisted from Steam and Xbox Live sooner or later, so I'll just buy it now.
Actually, I'm sorry I didn't downloaded it from the Wii Virtual Console before the closure, because that version was ported by M2.
EDIT: And reminder that Nintendo actually did the effort to get the Super FX game's rights back (Yoshi's Island, Star Fox) along with Donkey Kong arcade, but Sega isn't even trying to take back one of it's greatest games in history.