Oh - I was conflating systemic with structural or institutional. I see now that systemic means vast and throughout everything, which makes sense. Thank you!
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What is "racism"? Are you racist?
- Thread starter Moose the Fattest Cat
- Start date
American isn't the sole global superpower though. And the white race isn't as globally dominant as you think it is.
OP
OP
To your first part — your voice matters too. Here and wherever you post. Donating is good but the main thing is to not let it be ignored.
To your second part — important to remember first, that race isn't "real." The experiences of bi-racial people, like yourself and what you described, proves it. Racists need the character of people to match their physical bodies; that's the fantasy of the world that mindset needs to stick to in order to operate.
POC who can pass as white are in unique positions of being able to benefit the relative advantages of both, and also suffer the relative disadvantages of both. At least that is how it seems to me from my understanding, and sounds like what you're saying too.
OP
OP
Yeah I'm not advocating for either or predicting these are lasting statuses. I'm just saying it as a fact, in current day. If you want to say China and Russia count as global superpowers already for whatever that means, I'm not going to disagree.
"Think of racism like the Christian idea of "being born into sin." You start from a baseline of bad. You take actions to work toward your redemption."
No I don't think of racism that way and I never will. "Born in sin" is what we got rid of. Religion made us believe this and I will never accept such a view no matter the circumstances ever again.
No I don't think of racism that way and I never will. "Born in sin" is what we got rid of. Religion made us believe this and I will never accept such a view no matter the circumstances ever again.
America being a superpower means nothing. You've distorted the meaning of racism to purely apply to African-Americans, which while it may be beneficial to frame it that way for your purposes, it's wrong.
Racism exists in all forms, across all races and places. There is systemic oppression in places like Africa and Asia even if skin colours may be the same based on race or religious beliefs and hate crimes based purely on race between minorities and majorities.
Framing it as "you're racist if you're white and can never be if you're a minority", completely removes nuance which is dangerous IMO. You're empowering the "racists" to never improve and giving carte blanche to people to act on their racism without ever getting that label.
Yes all white people benefit from systemic and structural racism but one needs to be very careful in framing it. Framing it the way you have has the exact opposite intended effect of what you're hoping for IMO.
If every white person is racist by default, and it's evil to be racist, then it is evil to be white. Every white person is evil, the second they are born. I don't see what beneficial to society direction we're going with this train of thought.
OP
OP
Again, it's best to think of it like "sin" is in Christian dogma. You are born with sin. You work to do good deeds for redemption.
White people are born into being racist. This is the burden of being white in America. You are racist by default. It is a bondage you are born into and have no choice. Thankfully, it's only psychic bondage, and as we've seen, largely optional. As far as being born into racism, could be worse!!!!!
White people can redeem themselves by helping black people instead of always looking to shut them down and reduce their presence, which is their trained instinct, in every situation in every instance in every place in every interaction.
Isn't this definition a bit narrow, considering thousands of years of history worldwide?
Not sure how to read the OP. Is this your opinion or is this what experts say on these matters?
I don't mean any of this in a bad way, by the way. Just a bit confused on how to properly assess this.
Not sure how to read the OP. Is this your opinion or is this what experts say on these matters?
I don't mean any of this in a bad way, by the way. Just a bit confused on how to properly assess this.
I'm on board with all of this, but I need to someone to help me bridge the gap between the dictionary definition of racism, and this definition that says you can't be racist if you didn't benefit from systematic oppression of the other group.
Cuz it's come up in conversation before and I didn't have an answer for why the dictionary was incorrect/incomplete.
Cuz it's come up in conversation before and I didn't have an answer for why the dictionary was incorrect/incomplete.
OP,
Thank you for saying this better than I could have. Your posts in the thread were helpful.
I generally reject this line of thinking. How are they trained? Inherently by society?
Thank you for saying this better than I could have. Your posts in the thread were helpful.
I generally reject this line of thinking. How are they trained? Inherently by society?
It just sounds like what you're talking about is privilege. I'm white and I don't think I'm a racist. I am definitely privileged though, and I try to offset it somewhat by making donations. If I was a racist, I don't think that helping black people would suddenly make me redeemed - I would need to be reformed at a much more fundamental level. I also think that minorities can be racist - minorities do/say some fucked up shit all the time. But we can agree to disagree.
Hopefully my posts don't sound like I'm trying to defend myself or am being fragile. I don't really care what people online think of me, but I do like taking part in the discussion.
OP
OP
Re-read my OP. You're distorting a lot of what I said. I very specifically did not apply it only to African-Americans, because black people are not the only racial minority that suffers from racism in America. I very specifically was considering the many races that have been subjected to "the American experiment" in my OP.
I'm not disagreeing on racism in other countries.
I think you are missing the nuance you say is lacking by not considering my OP in full, and I think that you need to guard against an instinct that is becoming apparent in your argument to dismiss racism in America as not a real problem, not a unique problem, and not an ongoing problem that should be engaged with.
There is an element within what you're saying that suggests "racism is a fact of life and cannot be changed." That is the dangerous thinking. And that is why it is critical that "racism" and "prejudice" are distinct definitions in our usage here.
Racism can be eliminated. Racism does not have to exist. Racism are structures created in the formation of human civilizations.
Prejudice cannot be eliminated any more than fear can be eliminated. It's how our brains work. It's not our ideal selves, but it is how we work. But we do not need to create societies that are based on fear and prejudice.
Does this make more sense?
You're either a racist, or you're actively combatting racist policy by fighting for policy that promotes racial equity. There's no fence sitting
How about, you're born into privilege and you have to choose to recognize it?
I'm progressive, left wing, liberal, social-democratic, anti-capitalist, pro-solidarity etc. and wouldn't conciously favour or disfavour people due to their race.
By natural disposition I make warm conversation and smile and be warm and friendly to people regardless of race.
However subconsciously I probably do discriminate based on race.
For example I am a heterosexual male, I am most intensely attracted to and I find most beautiful and aesthetically pleasing the women from my own race. Does that make me racist? It probably does right?
But then isn't most of the World like this in their mate preferences? People are usually ethnocentric in that regard. So does that make it racist?
Regarding the "White is good and Black is bad" symbology, that is definitely something innate in many cultures from BEFORE interactions between different races. Though no doubt it was exacerbated when interaction started happening and a rethink is needed on how appropriate such symbology is today, regardless of its benign origin.
By natural disposition I make warm conversation and smile and be warm and friendly to people regardless of race.
However subconsciously I probably do discriminate based on race.
For example I am a heterosexual male, I am most intensely attracted to and I find most beautiful and aesthetically pleasing the women from my own race. Does that make me racist? It probably does right?
But then isn't most of the World like this in their mate preferences? People are usually ethnocentric in that regard. So does that make it racist?
Regarding the "White is good and Black is bad" symbology, that is definitely something innate in many cultures from BEFORE interactions between different races. Though no doubt it was exacerbated when interaction started happening and a rethink is needed on how appropriate such symbology is today, regardless of its benign origin.
Are you actually going to engage seriously or continue being disingenuous? At no point have I ever said that racism in America is not a real problem, in fact I very clearly suggest otherwise. For the record I'm not actually American but I can assure you the narrow view you've applied, certainly does not mirror my experiences as a minority living in multiple countries (including the US for a short period).
I'm not the one claiming that someone is racist or not racist based on their race.
Agreed.
I disagree. Prejudices are environmental constructs, one only needs to look at how a child interacts with people versus an adult. People are conditioned to have prejudices.
No.
OP
OP
Here's where you're getting it wrong. You're looking at it as binary. "I don't think I'm a racist." I don't think you are either. I'm saying you're born into a racist society. You have taken many actions, as we all have, that contribute to racism, unknowingly. Because as white people we are not supposed to know. We're not supposed to think about it.
"Making donations" and "Agree to disagree" — this is exactly what I'm talking about when I talk about trained instincts. Parts of your brain are programmed to flinch at any idea of race, or being involved in race, and want to put it aside and feel like it's already been solved as much as it can be. That is how you are supposed to think, as a white person.
As a white person, you can have a much bigger impact by "helping minorities" simply by advocating for them when you don't have to. By helping them when no one asks you to. By making sure people who want to distort what they are saying don't get away with it. That matters more than a one-time donation, or volunteering at a soup kitchen.
You may not think you are "a racist." But your quoted post is racist. Because you're using your position of white privilege to deny racism's existence. You're saying black people and minorities are equally at fault ("both sides"). That satisfies you enough, makes enough sense, that you can now comfortably return to not thinking about racism.
You decided you're not racist. You decided it's something "they" do anyway ("how come they can say the N word but I can't?"). And that was good enough for you to move on and not think about it again.
You might not be waving a Confederate flag, but your posts here is an example of your racism.
I can help you with the next part too. White people really don't like being accused of racism . They actually hate being called "racist" more than racism itself. This is again part of the instincts that have been trained into us. You're going to want to be defensive, reject the whole thing, write it all off as being stupid nonsense, and again... never think about it again.
The solution is to sit with it, think about it, read about it, learn about it. Then realize that your position as a white guy gives you not only the inherent powers of a racist society, but if you decide to be a hero about it, you can then also use that privilege to help tear down those racist structures.
OP
OP
Again, I'm speaking from an American perspective. I appreciate your calling me out for the global perspective, although I'd prefer if you used your energy to be educational instead of aggrieved that my OP wasn't the specific encyclopedia you ordered.
People are conditioned to have specific prejudices. But if you're suggesting you can eliminate prejudice from the way human brains experience data, then I don't know what the hell we're talking about.
That seems like a pretty novel definition of racism. As far as Im aware, racism has always been defined as thinking that certain (often overt) characteristics are defined by your percieved race/ethnicity. Much closer to what you define as prejudice, only prejudice can be attached to anything, but it becomes racism as soon as it is attached to a racial construct. It seems like the simplest and the most intuitive definition, and as far as I know, the standard one. I suppose that you could interpret the "systemic" aspect in your definition as being a observation a racist makes about ALL members of a percieved group, in which case your definition is fairly close to the standard one.
I'm not aggrieved with your OP, I'm aggrieved with your antagonizing and condescending responses while putting patently false words in my mouth.
Well-integrated societies and equal access to education. Prejudice exists because disparity exists. If you grow up in a single race neighbourhood with little interaction with others, then of course a prejudice will develop. This is what I'm talking about it being environmental.
That is not what I said AT ALL. What you referenced is extremely offensive and I said nothing even resembling that. I appreciate your thoughtful post and will spend more time thinking about parts of it, but I think you may be inserting other people you have met into my post.
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OP
If it makes you feel any better, I've been expressly patient while you've done the exact same to me!
Yeah. Where are we disagreeing?
OP
OP
The quotes are not meant to be ascribed to you — aside from "a racist", I'm not saying those are pull quotes from the post I quoted. I'm referencing common things people say.
Relax. I am not attacking you. I am not trying to manipulate your words. I am quite literally doing this in an effort to help you understand.
The part where you said prejudice can't be eliminated anymore than fear can be eliminated. You know, the piece I originally quoted.
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Are you reading black authors on the subject? Angela Davis, James Baldwin.
I'd highly recommend Stamped by Ibram X Kendi. His work is extraordinarily insightful, but this is most accessible and is a great starting point for anyone looking to learn more.
OP
OP
This is gonna be our last interaction. I've given you a lot of leeway and I'm done being polite. You got a gentle call out, which you ignored, and continued with your same aggrieved, wounded tone. You can review how you spoke to me throughout the thread and ask yourself if you'd stand for the same treatment applied to you.
Okay so, let me get this straight then. You are saying prejudice can be eliminated from humanity, in a society in which all neighborhoods have equal access to all types of cultural representation. Have you ever been to New York? lol
But even if what your saying could somehow be true, demographically worldwide, it still doesn't eliminate prejudice from the way human brains work. All prejudice is pre-judging something. We are always going to make conclusions to fill in missing gaps.
For example, you're prejudiced against me for whatever reasons are specific to you. I'm clearly representing something to you to make you react in such a way. If I say that my race is xyz, and then you carry that and apply it to the next person who is xyz, it doesn't then mean that you are racist towards xyz. It means you are prejudiced. It doesn't have anything to do with structure.
I'll take a look, thanks! Have read some of Angela Davis' work byt not Baldwin. However, since we are strictly talking definitions of words here, I dont think that an individual's own terminological use of a word is enough to change its "official" definition. Especially one as elementary and intuitive as the word "racism".
Everyone is racist, it's built in to us as humans. It's how you recognize that and deal with it that matters.
OP
OP
Basically the answer is because the language is incomplete. And that's not accidental. The language is incomplete because we're supposed to think of it a certain way.
Consider the definition of "racist" that does not include structural element. That is a very convenient definition for white supremacy. It means that everyone is racist. The actions of white people in America are just one of many equal racist actions that happen all the time.
The "racism" definition that includes structure is newer. It's not my invention. It is more complete, and begins to help us understand the vastness of the issue.
But if the definition of it doesn't include structure, then we are not acknowledging the actual problem, or we need more words to qualify it.
OP
OP
It's not so intuitive if we're all still bumping up against how to define the word. We certainly see & hear the word a lot. But it's also clear that Americans are extraordinarily ignorant about race, even their own history.
Consider as well the way in which "official" is a white supremacist construct. Consider all the many many insanely many ways in which the Western/American value system is about judging "goodness" and "legitimacy" by how close something is to the white person's existing knowledge of it.
Again, marijuana is a really clear example. Black people are the ones selling/buying weed = bad/illegitimate. White people buying/selling weed = good/legitimate.
You're done being polite? Being polite would have been to not say that I said racism was not a problem in America. You lost me as soon as you said that. I'll engage in meaningful discussion with those who don't deliberately misrepresent views to try and get an upper hand in a discussion.
On a global scale completely eliminating prejudice is largely impossible but at the macro level improving integration, improving access to education and community work is proven to work. Yes prejudices can be eliminated, not for everyone but to say they are hard-wired or unavoidable is simply not true.
"I think that you need to guard against an instinct that is becoming apparent in your argument to dismiss racism in America as not a real problem, not a unique problem, and not an ongoing problem that should be engaged with."
Bad faith arguments may have something to do with my opinion of you.
I havent really seen that much dispute about the word honestly, maybe its more prevalent here on Era? I mean, what you say about americans seems to be true certainly, especially when looking at whats going on right now, but the truth of those observations seems unrelated to the definition of the word "racism". Could you elaborate or refrase your second point about the "official" version being a white supremacist construct? Im not sure I quite understand what you mean here. As far as Im aware, the word racism, or most other words for that matter, do not actually contain value judgements of the kind that you are proposing.
OP, can you help me understand something? What is the point of defining racism such that effectively only white people can be racist? This is not a sub at you - I'm trying to understand why this definition exists at all. It feels very difficult to start a conversation about racism with someone by telling them what they know is wrong and black people can't be racist to white people. Like you're trying to educate people with a double whammy of you and only your kind are racist and no one can be racist towards you. You can then explain that people can be prejudiced against white people but the damage is done, they're not listening anymore.
Essentially my question is, What is the advantage or point of defining racism in a way that runs counter to what most people colloquially believe racism to be?
Essentially my question is, What is the advantage or point of defining racism in a way that runs counter to what most people colloquially believe racism to be?
This is right. Even minorities are racist among each other. You can have a muslim shopkeeper complaining about how he is profiled as a terrorist but keep an extra vigilant eye on the black guy that walks into his store. It's big in asian countries. Being black doesn't make you immune to being racist against other black people either.
But I'll also add its built into certain countries cultures more and if you were raised a certain way. It can be difficult to unlearn. Which is why I like the take that its not enough to be "not racist" you have to be "anti racist". There needs to be a conscious effort to unlearn and act better.
This is a thread I thought about making myself, everyone has a history with how they deal with race, their own race and how they deal and interact with it on an everyday basis.
As for me, I strongly believe in the positives of embracing our racial differences. I have been lucky to be raised by very different cultures, interacting with people from all backgrounds almost on a daily basis and it has afforded me a more global view of the world than most. That being said, I'm positive theres things about my demeanor that are influenced by race and some of them must have been/still be racist in some way, shape or form. I dont see it as avoidable, but rather as part of my continual growth as a person. Its not enough for to not be racist, which I dont think I am, but I need to also go beyond that and be an ally to those that I could be helping in my field, like what am I doing to make sure we are hiring more black artists? How can I help with training the next generation of black artists? (the numbers are still dismal in my industry) How much do I know about other cultures like people of Middle Eastern descent, do I fetishize stuff that comes from Japan? Am I falling for that trap so many people fall for in which they start painting Asia with a wide brush? I try to ask myself questions and reach out to the community as often as I can so I never assume "well, mission accomplished, not racist!"
So yeah, its a process and my privilege has afforded me to approach this at whatever pace I choose ... which obviously its problematic in and of itself
As for me, I strongly believe in the positives of embracing our racial differences. I have been lucky to be raised by very different cultures, interacting with people from all backgrounds almost on a daily basis and it has afforded me a more global view of the world than most. That being said, I'm positive theres things about my demeanor that are influenced by race and some of them must have been/still be racist in some way, shape or form. I dont see it as avoidable, but rather as part of my continual growth as a person. Its not enough for to not be racist, which I dont think I am, but I need to also go beyond that and be an ally to those that I could be helping in my field, like what am I doing to make sure we are hiring more black artists? How can I help with training the next generation of black artists? (the numbers are still dismal in my industry) How much do I know about other cultures like people of Middle Eastern descent, do I fetishize stuff that comes from Japan? Am I falling for that trap so many people fall for in which they start painting Asia with a wide brush? I try to ask myself questions and reach out to the community as often as I can so I never assume "well, mission accomplished, not racist!"
So yeah, its a process and my privilege has afforded me to approach this at whatever pace I choose ... which obviously its problematic in and of itself
OP
OP
I'm getting enough questions about it that maybe I will add this to the OP.
Can the language of racism change?
Yes. The racism of language is changing and evolving always. Language is a tool of control, for one thing; it is a reflection of our ability to understand the world.
Implying "racism" has a fixed meaning is naive at best, dangerous at worst. The language clearly evolves. It was acceptable to call Black americans the "N word" for a long time. "Negro" for a long time. Now it is "African American" when we mean "black." But are all "African Americans" from Africa? Are all black people from Africa? Are all African Americans black? What about Charlize Theron or Elon Musk? What about black people in Europe?
Our language for this concept is incomplete. It has not been given a lot of thought. These are related causes and effect.
Insisting that racism does not include the structural element is, itself, racist. It is a form of denial.
Too many people (I'm thinking of Americans but not limited) assume they are too clever and too good to be racist or fall for racist propaganda. They think they are simply too good and smart to fall for it. It is magical thinking to insist on "racism" as a word or a construct having some kind of objective form. As I said in OP — objectivity is a form of white control. What is "objective" in any instance? You'll find it is whatever is most convenient for white people.
So if you (theoretical you) already know everything about race, when others seem so perplexed by it yet it seems so simple to you.... why, it's like you have some innate superiority, even. But it couldn't be that generations of racist programming has any impact on you. Nahhhhhhh...
I don't consider myself racist but I know I have supported racism by not speaking up when others were being racist. Living in a small town there are several racists. Everytime adults would go off on their racist rants I would just walk away telling myself I can't change their stupidity. With kids I try to have an actual conversation about their remarks and hope to make them think.
I still struggle with it, being a coach I am in the community a lot. I talk back now, point out ignorance. I know it won't change their mind but I figure it deserves to be said. My fear though is that my speaking up is going to cost me my role as a coach. I figure that it is a small price to pay if it happens though.
I have a different background from most around me. I got sent to prison for 18 months when I was a teenager. Obviously was scared shitless but I was just one of the guys when I was there. Played a lot of basketball and cards and had many conversations with several other races and realized then that people are people regardless or race or religion. That time saved my life and made me a better person. Figured out pretty quick it's all about what's in your heart that makes you a man.
I still struggle with it, being a coach I am in the community a lot. I talk back now, point out ignorance. I know it won't change their mind but I figure it deserves to be said. My fear though is that my speaking up is going to cost me my role as a coach. I figure that it is a small price to pay if it happens though.
I have a different background from most around me. I got sent to prison for 18 months when I was a teenager. Obviously was scared shitless but I was just one of the guys when I was there. Played a lot of basketball and cards and had many conversations with several other races and realized then that people are people regardless or race or religion. That time saved my life and made me a better person. Figured out pretty quick it's all about what's in your heart that makes you a man.
OP
OP
I didn't realize that's what I was trying to do. Thanks for informing me what I was deliberately doing and what my motivations are. This is your example of a good faith argument, I assume.
I just want you to know, also — I've seen this dance before. I know the tactics. I have seen a lot of these defensive maneuvers. I don't know you at all, but I know the way the tracks go for these trains of thought.
I am sorry that you have learned about racism against your will, and that it is making you uncomfortable. Shooting all the messengers in the world won't remove that discomfort.
Is that bad faith or prejudiced? This is my way of telling you to drink piss. I'm not here to heal all hearts and minds from all wounds. This is a specific mission with a specific target, which is racism, which is structural.
Your efforts to distract are admirable, but predictable. You might be deluding yourself into thinking you have some sort of pure intentions behind whatever you're doing here exactly, but I'm telling you again — I've seen these tracks. Even though you're not American and your tracks maybe go in the opposite direction, I've learned awhile ago to not get into semantics debates about the value of human life.
You either are anti-racist, or you are not. I don't care to convince you.
Nah that's a garbage concept in religion and it's garbage here too.
Anyway prejudice is as much a human trait as any other. Humans begin to build their concept of ingroup very early in life. As long as difference exists prejudice will too. The best we can do is expose people to diversity as early as possible and as constantly as possible in their life as well as socially (and legally when appropriate) punish bigotry, racism, etc .
I don't think I'm a bigot, as I try to confront my personal racism when I can and be empathetic to people who face systemic, explicit, and implicit racism... but I certainly carry prejudices, not choosing to harbor those prejudices, and I try to confront them internally.
Thank you for enlightening me on racism, even though I have experienced it throughout my life. It's truly illuminating that as a non-American that all the experiences I have had are due to America being a superpower and African American experiences influencing opinions of Vietnamese.
I'm anti-racist, your definition of racism is different to mine and that's ok.
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OP
OP
I feel you. It's hard to speak up. It's very very very very hard to speak up. Don't beat yourself up about not doing more before. It's in the past.
You're going to become stronger and more confident in your ability to state your thoughts in speaking up the more you do it. It gets less scary each time.
And also, you'll find the more you engage, there's only like 12 different arguments from racists, so it soon becomes unfortunately just very tedious.
However, as annoying and tedious as it is to explain Racism 101 over and over and over again... that's what black people and POC have been dealing with for their entire lives for generations. As white people, or people who are not oppressed by racism, it's our duty to do some of that work too. Dealing with racists isn't pleasant. It's a privilege that we can pick & choose when we want to deal with them.
OP
OP
I think you're an asshole, but as I said in the OP, you're generally on the same side. So unless you're defending racists, which I know you are not, then we're not enemies. Which is why I am disengaging. There's bigger fish to fry than semantics. I'm not interested in fighting allies who are assholes.
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"The best we can do" = "Racism has already been solved as much as it can be."
This is an example of absolving yourself of responsibility. I'm not saying you, individually, are taking no action whatsoever. I am saying this mentality lets you/us off the hook. And that's certainly very convenient for you/us.
We need to challenge ourselves to broaden our minds to what is and is not possible.
Nice strawman I guess? The best we can do never meant we already achieved anything close to enough change or equality. I just have a visceral reaction to that kind of religious analogies I particularly abhor the concept of sin it's a cancerous ideology. In a democracy you aren't born responsible for shit, because you can't change anything before you reach voting age or maybe a bit earlier if you protest (which most of the time doesn't amount to much unfortunately). If when you can help enact positive change you do, then you're a force for good in the world, if you refuse then you inherit the responsability of the oppressive system you live under.
