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What in the world does Sucker Punch Productions have against ragdoll physics?
- Thread starter ScOULaris
- Start date
Imagine playing in the black and white mode with the film grain, feeling the Kurosawa vibes, and you strike an enemy down...
and it ragdolls.
No thank you. I'll take canned animations.
and it ragdolls.
No thank you. I'll take canned animations.
OP
OP
Have you seen footage of GoT? This is a AAA-ass game on every level.
In what world would budget be a concern, especially with something as commonplace as ragdoll physics for death animations?
It's a whole system which requires a dedicated team for the 5 years it's been in development for. That's not cheap.
It's not that serious of a thread. Even the OP admits that it's a personal nitpick and doesn't claim that the game is RUINED FOREVER or anything. You are bringing weird unwarranted aggression into a small talk.
This is probably the thread you're thinking of.
What was the most hype-deflating piece of information about a highly anticipated game release that you learned close to launch?
I've been eagerly awaiting the release of Ghost of Tsushima for years since its initial reveal. At times the wait has been painful as my excitement was too much to contain. I'm someone who has been pining for a grounded, ninja-stealth game with AAA production values since forever, and GoT was...
www.resetera.com
Wow made the same thread twice.This is probably the thread you're thinking of.
What was the most hype-deflating piece of information about a highly anticipated game release that you learned close to launch?
I've been eagerly awaiting the release of Ghost of Tsushima for years since its initial reveal. At times the wait has been painful as my excitement was too much to contain. I'm someone who has been pining for a grounded, ninja-stealth game with AAA production values since forever, and GoT was...
I imagine it's some combination of stylistic choice and saving precious computational power on a dated piece of hardware. While it's clunky when it fails, I think it looks cool when it works right. It's definitely not a deal breaker for me.
Even a shotgun wouldn't send somebody flying like that. Projectiles are not designed to send the target flying, they are typically designed to disperse their energy inside the target, causing maximum damage. If the projectile leaves the body or pushes it back, you've wasted a heap of energy on not damaging your target. (Source: I was on a jury for the trial of somebody who literally blew somebody else's brains out with a shotgun)
I don't know and it doesn't really matter to me. I think this a silly detail that will be massively overlooked for almost everyone. As long as the dead bodies don't lose their physics and don't act like they have no mass I'm fine.
That people getting killed by a bow act as if they're blown away by a shotgun looks really silly and stupid for me, lol.
But yet they went with approache different than the two (blood explosion, no blood). I only wish if we have the option to toggle such effect as a homage like why the made the white&black filter. But I guess need more work than a filter.
This is the answer but some people are just incapable of accepting it for some reason.
The death animations (and the entire game) are a tribute to the Kurosawa samurai films and ragdoll physics would get in the way of that.
I guess this is what happens when game developers try to get "artistic"
So then why did the Infamous games have those pre-canned death animations too?
What were they trying to tribute there lmao.
OP
OP
Exactly. This thread is about ALL of their games lacking ragdoll physics. I just used GoT as the primary example in the OP because it's their most recent project.
Also, some people in here don't realize that you can have a dramatic hand-keyed animation that transitions into a procedural one at the end so the body realistically conforms to the environment after it falls to the ground. That's a very common implementation these days and would look SO much better.
OP
OP
UPDATE: New footage from the final build.
Yep, as expected we're still looking at canned animations with no IK or procedural animation blended in to have the bodies conform to the environment. I hate it. I fucking hate it.
Look at the final kill, how the guy dies right near the edge of the cliff but just falls in a pre-determined fashion and essentially hits an invisible wall where the cliff's edge would be. If there was procedural animation employed his body would've fallen over the edge, which would've been much more dynamic and visually satisfying for combat like this.
I'm still getting this game day 1, but this one thing is a huge blemish on what was primed to be my dream game.
Yep, as expected we're still looking at canned animations with no IK or procedural animation blended in to have the bodies conform to the environment. I hate it. I fucking hate it.
Look at the final kill, how the guy dies right near the edge of the cliff but just falls in a pre-determined fashion and essentially hits an invisible wall where the cliff's edge would be. If there was procedural animation employed his body would've fallen over the edge, which would've been much more dynamic and visually satisfying for combat like this.
I'm still getting this game day 1, but this one thing is a huge blemish on what was primed to be my dream game.
OP
OP
From the final build. Just... why? What would a AAA studio making a game of this caliber in terms of overall presentation and budget not make use of procedural animation or animation blending of any kind? It makes the game look incredibly dated from an animation perspective and clashes heavily with the otherwise great looking assets.
Maybe they don't like ragdoll for their game, maybe their engine doesn't support ragdoll, maybe they have problems to find a way to combine ragdoll with their preferred animations...
Yes, not every game has ragdoll. Would it be nice? Maybe... i think it will not hinder the gameplay.
Also they chosed not to do pick up animations, you can pick up things without picking it actually up.
It is a design decision.
Yes, not every game has ragdoll. Would it be nice? Maybe... i think it will not hinder the gameplay.
Also they chosed not to do pick up animations, you can pick up things without picking it actually up.
It is a design decision.
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Ive had the same thought OP. It doesnt bother me too much, but if there was a choice Id much rather hav ragdoll physics haha blowing people off rooftops in second son wouldve been amazing with ragdolls
It ruined gaming for me the same way Spiderman's puddles did. I'm not sure I'll be able to enjoy things anymore 😔
For reals though, I didn't even notice it until I saw these gifs. I probably won't notice it when I actually play too.
For reals though, I didn't even notice it until I saw these gifs. I probably won't notice it when I actually play too.
From the final build. Just... why? What would a AAA studio making a game of this caliber in terms of overall presentation and budget not make use of procedural animation or animation blending of any kind? It makes the game look incredibly dated from an animation perspective and clashes heavily with the otherwise great looking assets.
I agree the headshot was bad, the sword death looks fine. This is hilariously bad.
Yep, my take on this exactly.
From the footage, it's clear this is deliberate. They'd rather "design" how an enemy dies rather than leave a flimsy ragdoll float to the ground, and I agree. Almost 75% time, ragdolling is an exercise in comedy.
It seems like you're really broken up over this OP, I would vote with your wallet and avoid Sucker Punch games until they address this grievance.
The death animation in GoT looks great and I love it. I remember when OP went into the valorant thread and said the lack of ragdoll physics invalidates the entire game . I don't really get it but I guess I gotta respect OP for being so passionate about something I would typically never even think about.
Remember that iconic scene in Yojimbo where the moviewwent slo-mo and Toshirô Mifune took like five guys at once?
So I saw a talk from one of the producers at SP way back in the day, and he was telling a story from waaaay back in the day working on Sly, and they actually tried ragdoll all the way back then... and he said it was super depressing watching these colorful cartoon critters just collapse to the ground. So they changed to cartoonier canned animations to make it look less violent and, y'know, traumatic.
No idea if that very early experience with ragdoll in any way colors the studio's current efforts, but I thought it was a fun story and vaguely relevant.
No idea if that very early experience with ragdoll in any way colors the studio's current efforts, but I thought it was a fun story and vaguely relevant.
That's interesting, and might be an actual answer - "studio tradition". Which is probably unsatisfying to OP, but is quite often the most honest answer.
Separately, I think people are overlooking that most games have ragdoll in some extent and make it look good. We didn't always have IK and it was janky at first, but it's kind of a must nowadays. I think it's ok to not care that much (I don't really), but poopooing the technology just because one studio decided not to use it (and not for any really obvious compelling artistic or technological reasons) seems silly. But a little suspension of disbelief never hurt anyone, I guess. Well. Maybe.
Real talk?
They used to have a "Havok Guy", as in a former Havok programmer who was really good at his job and could help them navigate some of the finer points of the admittedly not-entirely-well-supported system. This guy worked there through the release of Infamous: Second Sun.
I haven't checked in with my friend who works there lately (we moved to different parts of the greater Seattle area and then the COVID thing cooked off), but I'm pretty sure that guy no longer works there, and they haven't really been able to get up to speed in terms of a plug-and-play or bespoke solution.
They used to have a "Havok Guy", as in a former Havok programmer who was really good at his job and could help them navigate some of the finer points of the admittedly not-entirely-well-supported system. This guy worked there through the release of Infamous: Second Sun.
I haven't checked in with my friend who works there lately (we moved to different parts of the greater Seattle area and then the COVID thing cooked off), but I'm pretty sure that guy no longer works there, and they haven't really been able to get up to speed in terms of a plug-and-play or bespoke solution.
100% agree, the guy jumping up and flailing with his legs when getting shot by an arrow looks so ridiculous and comedic it took me out of the gameplay trailer immediately. If this didn't release during my vacation (I want something to play) I'd wait and hope for a patch before buying it.
How they let this specific animation all the way to release is making me question both Sony and SP.
This is supposed to be a stylish game and this is the opposite of that.. oh well, hopefully I can get used to it or I just won't use my favorite weapon in the game all that often..
How they let this specific animation all the way to release is making me question both Sony and SP.
This is supposed to be a stylish game and this is the opposite of that.. oh well, hopefully I can get used to it or I just won't use my favorite weapon in the game all that often..
In fairness, that's the animation specifically for the heavy arrow. There's a shot in the State of Play footage of a dude getting hit with a normal arrow and he goes down like a sack of bricks, as one would expect.
Not to say that they couldn't have better-animated the heavy arrow impact, because... yeah, there have to be better ways to imply a strong impact. But still, at least you're not going to have to deal with that every time you fire at someone.
Because ragdoll or blended keyframes/procedural animations come with their own plethora of issues (clipping, floating, jittering, etc). As a FQA and as a someone who studied 3D animation and digital design at University, animations are among the hardest things to figure out a proper fix for that does not cause any other gameplay-related issues (crashes, hangs, performance drops, etc). Given the art direction they were aiming for, it makes sense for them to use keyframed animations. It allows them to have better control on the results, which also makes it way much easier to fix if an issue does come up. The actual problem with these death animations is the lack of variety in them, which could potentially prove to be easier to implement than the ragdoll or blended keyframes you are going on about. Personally, I don't see any issues with it.
I get what you are saying but i find it pretty funny
From the final build. Just... why? What would a AAA studio making a game of this caliber in terms of overall presentation and budget not make use of procedural animation or animation blending of any kind? It makes the game look incredibly dated from an animation perspective and clashes heavily with the otherwise great looking assets.
Oh, I must've missed that, thanks for letting me know! Makes me a little bit happier, haha.
Tbh I find it far more disappointing and disheartening that there won't be any supernatural or fantastical elements in the game.
I'll take a game that feels great to play over a game that just looks good to play any day of the week.
Thats alright, Rockstar games controls like shit, but not everyone is as good as a developer like [insert any developer] in this regard.
Honestly it might have to do with exactly your point. They have NEVER done it. Once you are stuck in a certain workflow it can be quite hard to change it and maybe their animation department never thought it was worth investing in such a different technology. And remember, it comes at certain performance costs so it influences everyone, not just the animation department.
But I have no idea. I said it before but "grounded" games that then have a bunch of really silly things (like weird animations) always detract me a little from getting the game. Obviously if it's a great game I'll jump in, but it does influence my decision.
But I have no idea. I said it before but "grounded" games that then have a bunch of really silly things (like weird animations) always detract me a little from getting the game. Obviously if it's a great game I'll jump in, but it does influence my decision.
