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groganos

Member
Jan 12, 2018
403
Ohhhhiiiiyyyoooo
People accusing VinFTW of console warring what is going on in this world.
Ummm I mean besides people just getting messy for no reason? I dunno the console wars are starting to kick off again it seems, instead of hey both boxes are great for whichever one you buy its "HE'S A PAID SHILL" or "MY FLOPS ARE BETTER THAN YOUR FLOPS" and finally "SECRET SAUCE IS CLOSES THE GAPS AND OUTPERFORMS THE OTHER CONSOLE"
It's gonna get worse when the first digital Foundry faceoff hit and I predict a thread graveyard of fallen console warriors who fought the good fight over two nice boxes that play games.
 

Bruceleeroy

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,381
Orange County
Ummm I mean besides people just getting messy for no reason? I dunno the console wars are starting to kick off again it seems, instead of hey both boxes are great for whichever one you buy its "HE'S A PAID SHILL" or "MY FLOPS ARE BETTER THAN YOUR FLOPS" and finally "SECRET SAUCE IS CLOSES THE GAPS AND OUTPERFORMS THE OTHER CONSOLE"
It's gonna get worse when the first digital Foundry faceoff hit and I predict a thread graveyard of fallen console warriors who fought the good fight over two nice boxes that play games.

Oh yeah I'm with you. I clearly see the crazy posts but Vin has always been a level headed guy
 

groganos

Member
Jan 12, 2018
403
Ohhhhiiiiyyyoooo
Oh yeah I'm with you. I clearly see the crazy posts but Vin has always been a level headed guy
Yeah from what I can tell his posts are normally hella solid but I dunno I think the spent up anticipation has fried some people's circuits because whatever box they supported is over performing or under performing whatever leak, rumor, or youtube video that spoke to what they wanted. Its turned into a warzone but I think in a week or two it should be more calm.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,586
Seattle, WA
This is SUCH a massive thread and kudos for it starting with a record-straightening statement. But here's my thinking, if anyone notices it at this point:

If both consoles have SSD architecture by default, that's great news... BUT if developers target content for both platforms, the *slower* SSD standard is going to win. Unless Sony pays for PS5-exclusive DLC for open-world games, whose levels include XXX more geometry or YYY further view distances, why would Ubisoft design core systems that one platform would stutter and pause to load? The whole point of the SSD revolution (pun intended) is to increase the available memory/RAM/etc pool that the GPU/CPU can play with at any given moment. That's entirely different from varying levels of CPU/GPU performance, which engines can account for by slashing effects or pixel resolution.

In other words: You can't drop your Xbox Series X game's resolution to 1440p and expect that to fix the seek-time difference in a 4K PS5 game. You could MAYBE change the LOD settings and have XSX games look fuzzier or blobbier when someone rapidly turns the camera. But even that's not an obvious "easy" fix. Targeting the platform with the slower SSD seek time will be a much cheaper path for third-party multi-plat games in the first 1-2 years.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
In other words: You can't drop your Xbox Series X game's resolution to 1440p and expect that to fix the seek-time difference in a 4K PS5 game. You could MAYBE change the LOD settings and have XSX games look fuzzier or blobbier when someone rapidly turns the camera. But even that's not an obvious "easy" fix. Targeting the platform with the slower SSD seek time will be a much cheaper path for third-party multi-plat games in the first 1-2 years.

Obviously it's not as easy a fix s changing resolution, but games already use system to randomly populate scenes with objects and this can easily be used to increase the diversity of those object on PS5 compared to XSX. NPCs, vehicles, vegetation can all be more varied just by widening the gamut of your established asset pool.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,537
This is SUCH a massive thread and kudos for it starting with a record-straightening statement. But here's my thinking, if anyone notices it at this point:

If both consoles have SSD architecture by default, that's great news... BUT if developers target content for both platforms, the *slower* SSD standard is going to win. Unless Sony pays for PS5-exclusive DLC for open-world games, whose levels include XXX more geometry or YYY further view distances, why would Ubisoft design core systems that one platform would stutter and pause to load? The whole point of the SSD revolution (pun intended) is to increase the available memory/RAM/etc pool that the GPU/CPU can play with at any given moment. That's entirely different from varying levels of CPU/GPU performance, which engines can account for by slashing effects or pixel resolution.

In other words: You can't drop your Xbox Series X game's resolution to 1440p and expect that to fix the seek-time difference in a 4K PS5 game. You could MAYBE change the LOD settings and have XSX games look fuzzier or blobbier when someone rapidly turns the camera. But even that's not an obvious "easy" fix. Targeting the platform with the slower SSD seek time will be a much cheaper path for third-party multi-plat games in the first 1-2 years.

The first thing I'd say is that, for the first 1-2 years, multiplat games are unlikely to target SSDs at all. That would imply dropping support for the PS4, X1X and PCs without SSDs.

However I think longer term it is worth considering how technology like texture streaming works. With texture streaming faster loading from HDD/SSD can bring benefits without creating a situation where slower hardware can't run the game at all.
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
This is SUCH a massive thread and kudos for it starting with a record-straightening statement. But here's my thinking, if anyone notices it at this point:

If both consoles have SSD architecture by default, that's great news... BUT if developers target content for both platforms, the *slower* SSD standard is going to win. Unless Sony pays for PS5-exclusive DLC for open-world games, whose levels include XXX more geometry or YYY further view distances, why would Ubisoft design core systems that one platform would stutter and pause to load? The whole point of the SSD revolution (pun intended) is to increase the available memory/RAM/etc pool that the GPU/CPU can play with at any given moment. That's entirely different from varying levels of CPU/GPU performance, which engines can account for by slashing effects or pixel resolution.

In other words: You can't drop your Xbox Series X game's resolution to 1440p and expect that to fix the seek-time difference in a 4K PS5 game. You could MAYBE change the LOD settings and have XSX games look fuzzier or blobbier when someone rapidly turns the camera. But even that's not an obvious "easy" fix. Targeting the platform with the slower SSD seek time will be a much cheaper path for third-party multi-plat games in the first 1-2 years.
Cerny specifically mentioned drastic LOD improvements during the presentation, so maybe that's where they expect the SSD to deliver benefits for multiplats.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,643
This is SUCH a massive thread and kudos for it starting with a record-straightening statement. But here's my thinking, if anyone notices it at this point:

If both consoles have SSD architecture by default, that's great news... BUT if developers target content for both platforms, the *slower* SSD standard is going to win. Unless Sony pays for PS5-exclusive DLC for open-world games, whose levels include XXX more geometry or YYY further view distances, why would Ubisoft design core systems that one platform would stutter and pause to load? The whole point of the SSD revolution (pun intended) is to increase the available memory/RAM/etc pool that the GPU/CPU can play with at any given moment. That's entirely different from varying levels of CPU/GPU performance, which engines can account for by slashing effects or pixel resolution.

In other words: You can't drop your Xbox Series X game's resolution to 1440p and expect that to fix the seek-time difference in a 4K PS5 game. You could MAYBE change the LOD settings and have XSX games look fuzzier or blobbier when someone rapidly turns the camera. But even that's not an obvious "easy" fix. Targeting the platform with the slower SSD seek time will be a much cheaper path for third-party multi-plat games in the first 1-2 years.

Well considering Xbox's own games are going to be cross-platform until 2021, the common denominator will still be shitty spinning drives for a while. And I bet same goes for most 3rd parties. So its not even slow SSDs, its straight up hard drives. But beyond that I hope the streaming tech is mature enough that it takes advantage of both console drives. The SSD in SX is also incredibly fast, especially with compression.
 

finally

Member
Jul 22, 2019
1,273
Sony is genius, they knew that better picture quality and more pixels isn't enough for new generation and they needed to invent new things that is really going to change the game.
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
Well considering Xbox's own games are going to be cross-platform until 2021, the common denominator will still be shitty spinning drives for a while. And I bet same goes for most 3rd parties. So its not even slow SSDs, its straight up hard drives. But beyond that I hope the streaming tech is mature enough that it takes advantage of both console drives. The SSD in SX is also incredibly fast, especially with compression.
Which sort of explains the hype for PS5 SSD I guess, there's gonna be a massive, generational difference between those cross gen/platform games and Sony 1P and the closest thing we'll have are Series X games in 2022, which might start requiring NVMe SSDs on PC going forward.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,178
Thanks for the full transcript.

For the part about SSD effects on game design like loading tunnels (e.g. Fallen Order), the devs will presumably design for the lowest common denominator. We'll still see the same loading "areas" on both consoles.

Isnt even the lowest common denominator (the xsx ssd) is like 50 times faster than the old spining drives though?

If you are talking about pcs, i think ssds are common enough in gaming pcs that devs can start putting them in min sys reqs now
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
It's not meaningless, but there is more than one performance metric to a GPU that contribute to actual game performance. Sony and Microsoft made different trade-offs and that means the XSX is not always faster. That's before even considering the SSD differential and the API advantage Jason has been hearing about. I know it breaks some people's brains, but it's how this shit actually works.

And the Coherency engine of the SSD help the GPU to be more efficient because it help not flush data of the cache of data inside the memory when you load tons of data. GPU scrubbers for the win.

This is crazy a SSD controller helping a GPU to be more efficient.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Basdically the topic is this, Sony did a poor job showcasing the PS5 (dropped the ball) so far but both it and the Series X are powerful machines. Each will have their strengths but it appears we won't be seeing horsepower discrepencies like we saw at the beginning of this generation. Good news is this generation looks to be significantly better and a bigger leap from the last.

Well considering Xbox's own games are going to be cross-platform until 2021, the common denominator will still be shitty spinning drives for a while. And I bet same goes for most 3rd parties. So its not even slow SSDs, its straight up hard drives. But beyond that I hope the streaming tech is mature enough that it takes advantage of both console drives. The SSD in SX is also incredibly fast, especially with compression.
This is why Microsoft planned to give consumers more time to adopt and not force people to buy new hardware. The Series X will show significant improvements over the Xbox one versions regardless as seen just by loading current games on the hardware with no optimization at all. We are also seeing Microsoft 1st parties already working on existing games like Gears 5 with adde effects not even found on ultra settings on the PC.

The big question is what will Sony have ready for the PS5? If they can manage to get Horizon 2 or something equivalent then yes, that will indeed showcase the need to jump to PS5 but will it differenciate itself enough from big publsihers like Ubisoft and the next Assassins Creed and Microsoft 1st party titles like Halo Infinite? The games take years in the making and Sony still has at least 2 huge games coming on the PS4, what will they have ready on the PS5? Of course when you put out titles that are only on PS5 people will automatically say that couldn't be done on PS4 and that is the narrative Sony wants to combat Series X. The flipside will be games like Halo Infinite and people on the forums saying well if this was only Series X it could have been that much bigger and better and so on. The console warriors are already gearing up, you'll see. All I want is Microsoft to put out outstanding content, that has been their weakness this entire gen regardles of horsepower.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
forum.beyond3d.com

Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...

A great explanation of streaming, and explanation of what they will do with GPU scrubbers.
 

dobahking91

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,591
forum.beyond3d.com

Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...

A great explanation of streaming, and explanation of what they will do with GPU scrubbers.

Damn good read. Big if true.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
forum.beyond3d.com

Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...

A great explanation of streaming, and explanation of what they will do with GPU scrubbers.

Don't know how accurate it will end up being, but certainly a really interesting read, giving more insight into why Sony may have made some of the design decisions they did.

Also, as I've seen the whole BCpack thing brought up as an advantage for the Series X over the PS5 a few times, I thought this was of note.

Totten said:
Disco said:
Bcpack allows Ms a compression of 2:1 while Sony has ~1.6:1. Is that of any significance if the raw speed is faster than compressed?
Cerny said Kraken with 5.5GB/s raw bandwidth is typically 8-9GB/s effective bandwith, but it can go as high as over 22GB/s. That's 4:1.
At 17m23s:


So in reality, it's a max potential compression rate of 2:1 (XSX) vs 4:1 (PS5) in PS5's favour, at least based on the figures we've been given or know.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Don't know how accurate it will end up being, but certainly a really interesting read, giving more insight into why Sony may have made some of the design decisions they did.

Also, as I've seen the whole BCpack thing brought up as an advantage for the Series X over the PS5 a few times, I thought this was of note.




So in reality, it's a max potential compression rate of 2:1 (XSX) vs 4:1 (PS5) in PS5's favour, at least based on the figures we've been given or know.

The BCPack will help textures compress to 2 to 1 but textures aren't all the things inside memory here for example 40% of the assets for Killzone shadow Fall textures and they are compressed too on PS5 just less efficiently and the SSD is much faster. Even if you have inside SSD only texture without geometry or other things and the PS5 SSD has no decompressor 5.5 GB/s > 4.8 GB/s.
 
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modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,844
forum.beyond3d.com

Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...

A great explanation of streaming, and explanation of what they will do with GPU scrubbers.
I am not sure whether this user is right about "GPU working set" needing 4x the memory next gen because of 4k resolutions, for example RDR2 only adds 1GB of VRAM on PC from 1080p ultra to 4k ultra, but in general the details seem correct and have a fascinating conclusion, next gen is going to be insane :p
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I am not sure whether this user is right about "GPU working set" needing 4x the memory next gen because of 4k resolutions, for example RDR2 only adds 1GB of VRAM on PC from 1080p ultra to 4k ultra, but in general the details seem correct and have a fascinating conclusion, next gen is going to be insane :p

Because this is not a next gen games but a current gen game working on PC an design around PS4 and XB1, again next gen will not looks like RDR2 at all...

For example next gen we will again have much more polygonal details like in hair. Better textures but this is only the tip of the iceberg we can imagine like MS told bake some BVH and modify it in realtime, different mix of baked GI and realtime RT. Baked crazy destruction or physic simulation and render it in realtime. Have much more animation and so on sky and budget is the limit...
 

Brees2Thomas

Member
Dec 27, 2019
1,525
forum.beyond3d.com

Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...

A great explanation of streaming, and explanation of what they will do with GPU scrubbers.
Wow..amazing if true.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,844
Because this is not a next gen games but a current gen game working on PC an design around PS4 and XB1, again next gen will not looks like RDR2 at all...

For example next gen we will again have much more polygonal details like in hair. Better textures but this is only the tip of the iceberg we can imagine like MS told bake some BVH and modify it in realtime, different mix of baked GI and realtime RT. Baked crazy destruction or physic simulation and render it in realtime. Have much more animation and so on sky and budget is the limit...
Wouldnt all those stuff be allocated on different memory areas that the poster described? It was implied from their words that this is strictly the resolution increase? Maybe i just misunderstood it.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Wouldnt all those stuff be allocated on different memory areas that the poster described? It was implied from their words that this is strictly the resolution increase? Maybe i just misunderstood it.

No you can load the data on resident or streaming memory this is just new data, probably better in streaming place, all depends on what you want to do but I expect when they will exploit the game for pushing more assets, they will think to bake something too complex for realtime and use it in games. After all this is all this sort of stuff which make our games look as good as they look. The crazy The Order 1886 lightmap or the dynamic light probe of tons of game. You can mix with high-quality realtime RT light too.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
forum.beyond3d.com

Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...

A great explanation of streaming, and explanation of what they will do with GPU scrubbers.
Thanks for this, actually fun read.
 

klik

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
873
forum.beyond3d.com

Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...

A great explanation of streaming, and explanation of what they will do with GPU scrubbers.


Great read.PS5 might be very much on par with XsX
 

Sklaary

Member
Mar 21, 2020
546
Woof

I wish the warriors would just massively chill out. At the end of the day, you won't care about power because (as Matt and other Jason already said) they are both incredibly strong machines doing things we've never seen before. You will care about the games.

Personally I think the PS5 specs are a dream come true. When Cerny said developers were asking for faster drives, I can only confirm I'd personally say the same. We can already push a ton of pixels to screen, but getting an ultra fast drive standard in every box is something we've never had. And as I said a few weeks ago: the faster the better. However, that's just me. There are a lot of developers who might think differently about this. I think most developers will agree that both these boxes are just super impressive!
Woof

I wish the warriors would just massively chill out. At the end of the day, you won't care about power because (as Matt and other Jason already said) they are both incredibly strong machines doing things we've never seen before. You will care about the games.

Personally I think the PS5 specs are a dream come true. When Cerny said developers were asking for faster drives, I can only confirm I'd personally say the same. We can already push a ton of pixels to screen, but getting an ultra fast drive standard in every box is something we've never had. And as I said a few weeks ago: the faster the better. However, that's just me. There are a lot of developers who might think differently about this. I think most developers will agree that both these boxes are just super impressive!
What do you think abt the Development time for the Games? You think you will be able to release games 1 year earlier than usual?
 

residentgrigo

Banned
Oct 30, 2019
3,726
Germany
I honestly don´t understand how either of the topics got so long. Where is all that discussion-worthy info I am missing?
I too want to know what the PS5 is about but yeah... I don´t get it.
 
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