This stuff is too over my head lol...and this is probably a stupid question but I'm wondering if that's where the ultra SSD comes into play and there's some give and take there (for lack of a better term) to offset the weaker GPU?
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What I actually said on Kotaku Splitscreen about the PlayStation 5's specs
- Thread starter jschreier
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This stuff is too over my head lol...and this is probably a stupid question but I'm wondering if that's where the ultra SSD comes into play and there's some give and take there (for lack of a better term) to offset the weaker GPU?
It get's worse Google Stadia is more powerful than PS5 from Android Central.
Right or not it's terrible marketing for Sony.
To be fair Cerny said 100 of the most played games. So most big games will be covered. It's shitty don't get me wrong.
jschreier, so what I'm getting from this thread is that, if we misquote you, you'll post here more??? :-p
On a more serious note, I'm surprised that Sony didn't have visual tech demos prepared to give context. They would be useful for developers, and it would give consumers something to gawk at without revealing any of their games in progress.
On a more serious note, I'm surprised that Sony didn't have visual tech demos prepared to give context. They would be useful for developers, and it would give consumers something to gawk at without revealing any of their games in progress.
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XSX has an advantage in GPU ALU and bandwidth, which certainly speaks to better resolution, or better framerate if the increase in resolution remains less than the performance gap, and the game is bound on ALU or bandwidth.
But other cases might be more complicated. 'Look better' might be more complicated depending on the game. The SSD difference might make a difference to asset data streaming - asset data is a factor in visual fidelity. The SSD might make a difference in temporal artifacts related to assets.
It's possible some devs might be getting different flavours of performance out of the systems on different fronts. It doesn't sound, by the way, like any of the developers said PS5 was better overall... just possibly better in some ways.
Yesterday's "reveal" was not surprising. A few years ago, they had a similar one with Cerny and were the same "boring" talk. Actually received praise as many liked "Cerny's soothing voice". Yesterday's talk also got a thread praising him, do Sony might've missed the target to some, but was on point to others.
Thanks for the clarification Jason, I had one question to ask if you heard anything on Backwards Compatibility in regards to the confusing messaging in the GDC video?
Like is it a case that final clocks were just set not too long ago so they couldn't test BC effectively?
Just wondering as I'm scratching my head to Mark Cerny's" 100" titles currently being tested remark.
"Let's not talk about the parts where the competitor is superior but focus on the stuff we do better" would seem like a good marketing approach, yes. Sony failed with that. You can call it unfortunate but it was their very own responsibility to be clear with messaging, and they didn't manage to do this outside of the SSD. Not really the role of the journalist to save bad marketing. It's a shame for Playstation though. Also, I wonder, do you have equally as many devs talking about what it's like to work with Xbox Series X? Microsoft listed lots and lots of interesting features for devs on Monday as well.
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Jason the important thing that people will keep bringing up over and over is
Are the people you're referencing here and in the podcast reliable neutral parties? The language in the podcast made it seemed like "the people working on this stuff" are devs and engineers literally at PlayStation.
But the SSD is where they are better and they did talk about that...
Thanks for that. But does the PS5 also have performance barriers? I would think that both machines would have some challenges that devs need to transcend.
Or have Sony once again outengineered MS.
What I have taken away from Cerny was that he had a vision when creating the PS5. And that vision dealt with changing the way games are designed and played (including audio representation). I'm certain, at least one launch game will feature stuff not possible before and that will make all the difference in people's perception.
MS vision was to make the most power console that eats monsters for breakfast, making what's already on the table better.
From a gaming perspective Sonys vision sounds more interesting. Should have advertised that better.
MS vision was to make the most power console that eats monsters for breakfast, making what's already on the table better.
From a gaming perspective Sonys vision sounds more interesting. Should have advertised that better.
Yesterday I did all my console talk discussion for months at least. You can't even properly quote people well and all for your console warrior shit. Tiring.
But the quote doesn't say that PS5 is better either so how is the full context helping with that? Feels like calling something misrepresentation when it might honestly be getting to the point.
They did actually do this. But it was really buried in the jargon and the examples were pretty vague.
Some real world stuff like the Spider-Man footage he showed last year would have gone much further. But even then, it might not have meant much without a comparison to the XSX side.
going to subscribe in overcast assuming it shows up there (link just goes to Apple podcasts) - just as the tiniest way to say thanks and offset 0.1% of your frustrations :)
It's funny because Stadia has had problems matching current gen consoles that it is supposedly much more powerful than. Just goes to show how much more there is to this stuff than damn teraflops.
When the guy that actually created the content comes on to your message board to call you out for how bad your thread was.
jschreier , thanks for posting! Your comments are great in context.
Resetera gaming side has been awful over the last few days. I'm really excited for the new console generation to launch, but some of you children are making this incredibly difficult for the rest of us.
jschreier , thanks for posting! Your comments are great in context.
Resetera gaming side has been awful over the last few days. I'm really excited for the new console generation to launch, but some of you children are making this incredibly difficult for the rest of us.
Jason you're amazing as always and definitely deserve better than the flak you were getting from the warriors in the other thread.
So yeah, as always we wait for actual game reveals and proper side by side comparisons to tell us the full story of these 2 machines and what type of experiences their owners will have.I'm not foreseeing a scenario where owners will be disappointed with either box given how massive a leap they are over the current gen.
So yeah, as always we wait for actual game reveals and proper side by side comparisons to tell us the full story of these 2 machines and what type of experiences their owners will have.I'm not foreseeing a scenario where owners will be disappointed with either box given how massive a leap they are over the current gen.
the funny thing about people freaking out about the spec sheet is that i thought that the presentation by cerny was very clear in explaining the strengths of the platform and how it could be a great leap forward in some ways
sony decided to trust the intelligence of the audience and it was likely a huge mistake, as reactions to the specs and presentation show that most game likers are dumb as bricks
sony decided to trust the intelligence of the audience and it was likely a huge mistake, as reactions to the specs and presentation show that most game likers are dumb as bricks
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The people I am referring to in this podcast transcript do not work for PlayStation.
In fact, I just saw a ResetEra dev post something very much along the lines of stuff I've been hearing:
Even Schreier himself said that Sony's messaging was a let down with this presentation. Let's not kid ourselves, some of the messaging was clear as mud. It was a very poor presentation.
yeah this is so blown out of proportion. Until we get all details(price, game demos etc) all this arguing is a waste of time. this has gotten so ridiculous. No matter what platform people chose they will at the end of the day get a great experience.
Yp.. no surprise here. This is the inevitable outcome of how sony handled this.
As I said in another thread, sony has made really well thought out and balanced console, but they seem to have lost touch with their audience and how these things actually work. They did an honest deep dive, and that was what it was meant to be, but that was the absolute worst way to introduce your new machine to the world. They needed to dumb that shit down thousandfold and at least throw up some demos so people would see what they were actually implying.
Cause as it stands, all the world got from that was, XSX s stronger because it has more flops but PS5 also has a fast SSD.
It's almost sad when you think about it. Just mind-bogglingly crazy.
As I said in another thread, sony has made really well thought out and balanced console, but they seem to have lost touch with their audience and how these things actually work. They did an honest deep dive, and that was what it was meant to be, but that was the absolute worst way to introduce your new machine to the world. They needed to dumb that shit down thousandfold and at least throw up some demos so people would see what they were actually implying.
Cause as it stands, all the world got from that was, XSX s stronger because it has more flops but PS5 also has a fast SSD.
It's almost sad when you think about it. Just mind-bogglingly crazy.
Like I said it's a shitahow lol. Lot's of misinformation, doomposting, intense console warring etc.
But that's all on Sony. This is probably the worst thing they could have done in terms of marketing. The dislikes on the youtube stream are telling enough. Might even be a first. Sony has never been this bad in terms of communication.
But that's all on Sony. This is probably the worst thing they could have done in terms of marketing. The dislikes on the youtube stream are telling enough. Might even be a first. Sony has never been this bad in terms of communication.
Isn't the 10.7TF of Stadia based on old (custom GCN) AMD architecture, and not RDNA2?
If so, it's about 2 gpu gens behind and far less efficient/ powerful afaik.
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Its amazing how TF became a defacto measuring stick across all architectures and generations.
That is great, interesting how the theoretical performance level might shake out differently than what the specs say. I do think the SSD might throw a wrench into things, since it's a new thing for consoles and the console seems to be built in a way to avoid real bottlenecks. I barely understand this stuff, but I do understand that it may shake out differently than we think in the end. If we think of the CPU / GPU / SSD or HDD combo in each system as equally important, the scale looks like this (current gen is not to scale, but PS5 and XSX are). I know this is an oversimplification, but if we DO think of all three as equally important to how the game runs and looks on each system, this is how we can visually represent things:
And while it's not accurate to represent all 3 as essentially the same thing, my understanding is that it's more valid to do so now than in the past, given how the SSD is fast enough to store meaningful game elements in its memory, which may have been stored in RAM before.
And while it's not accurate to represent all 3 as essentially the same thing, my understanding is that it's more valid to do so now than in the past, given how the SSD is fast enough to store meaningful game elements in its memory, which may have been stored in RAM before.
Yep, it's like I said. Many months of silence and bad communication and then this. What a way to hurt your new console and the whole brand. Jesus....
It becomes even weirder when you start inserting smartphones into the equation. On paper, an iPhone from 2018 is about three times more powerful than a base PS4.
If that's all people think, then didn't Xbox do a worse job with marketing because CPU and RAM is better too? I just don't get this lamenting over marketing. Talking about Sony's API would not have convinced anyone that the consoles are closer in power and people know that.
think of it like... a mustang vs. a civic. does one have more power than the other? yes.
if you're on a road that's full of potholes, however, do you ever see that increase in power? probably not. you can only go as fast as the road lets you go safely, unless you're a really good driver.
a big part of sony's argument is that their custom hardware is going to take a lot of those potholes out - this was one of the big motivators behind their very long (and very interesting!) explanation of how their SSD setup works. they've spent a lot of time optimizing data movement speeds, managing decompression, improving data eviction policies, and so on. the theory behind it is that, while you have a lower theoretical top-end, the smooth operation of the hardware means you'll be able to go at a constantly fast speed. by comparison, if the series x is missing some of these features, there might be some games that truly just are faster (the aforementioned "really good drivers"), but it's possible that some games might even run worse. we don't actually know.
there's also some other interesting things of note. for one thing, graphics aren't just a matter of flops. one of the big drivers of pop-in, for example, is memory/hard drive read speed - if you can't replace your models with higher-quality textures at an adequate rate, the player starts to get too close to the low-quality textures (or the non-loaded objects, in extreme cases) and the game looks bad. how much does the significantly faster SSD lead to better graphics by improving texture load times? we have no idea. similarly, the ps5 has an entire audio processing unit that the xbox doesn't. how much workload does this take off of the cpu/gpu? does this lead to better performance? we have no idea - this would largely depend on how much time/effort developers are putting into audio for modern games. (for me personally, I'm incredibly intrigued by the audio fidelity sony was talking about, and genuinely do think it could be the true "leap" of this generation if it pans out)
the point is that, until we get actual games running cross-platform that we can compare directly, we don't know how the hardware truly compares. developers have been saying for a long time that numbers on a box with frequencies and teraflops aren't all that matters for hardware performance. solely comparing cpu/gpu theoretical top ends is like, the tim allen version of thinking about hardware - it's mostly just grunting and shouting about "more power". we'll see soon enough what things look like for sure.
Exactly this. That deep dive was to the point on touched on all the areas or things that made the PS5 special.Touched on what they did and why they chose to dit. Everything was addressed. The mistake they made was that that is not how you address the general audience. Devs maybe, really tech-savvy people yes, but not everyone else.
Everyone else needs to see exactly what you are talking about. Need a visual representation of what is being said. A simple Siderman or GOW demo would have sufficed instead of showing a map of Jak 2. A bathtub with rubber ducks showing RT reflections would have done more for them than a slide showing they also do RT.
Like its so easy to have avoided all this that its just ridiculous to think someone at Sony didn't think of all this. s it stands, everything they did in that deep-dive might as well have just been sent to DF and have them put together a video for them. They would have at least done a far better job than Sony did.
Well according to what was being said it sounds like the PS5 is superior to the XSX all things considered.
So basically devs are saying that theoretically the Series X has the highest potential, but potential bottlenecks could cause it to not reach that potential, whereas Sony in that presentation went on emphatically about how they are prepared to make sure that they get all they can out their potential. So yeah, it's a 'wait and see' thing as both companies have approached the issue in different ways. Curious to see how it all ends up.
Oh wow. That's pretty funny. Especially considering how there are games (such as Destiny 2 and RDR2) that have performed better on current gen hardware (One X) than in Stadia.
Yeah, I agree. This is god awful marketing for them. Then again people at Sony/PlayStation can only blame themselves.
This was a tech presentation for developers. The big take away from my dev (but not game dev) understanding is:
- huge reduction in the amount of logic you need to write to handle streaming assets (ie none Cerny was explicit that the IO is handled for you)
- huge reduction in the amount of logic you need to handle calculations around which assets to choose based on what the player is likely to move to in next frame etc
- huge reduction in time to generate lots of different assets at varying LODs (just use single max LOD asset)
- huge reduction in QA time (think of all the saved minutes play-testing Bloodbourne if after each death the reload is instant)
- huge reduction in time to create/iterate levels where the designer wants a particular design but the hardware cannot keep up with what would have to be loaded - level designers can simply design what they want and the asset loading can keep up no matter what -> leading to shorter dev time -> less iterations -> less crunch
This part has me confused.
The difference between 1x, and pro for most games
1440P/1800P vs 4k
Higher resolution textures
More stable framerate(not 30vs60)
For that difference we needed
50% more ram
35% more bandwith
10% faster cpu
45% faster gpu
4 extra CU
How are we going to get a repeate of the 1x/pro with
Same amount of ram
20% more bandwidth
8% faster cpu
15-20% faster gpu
16 extra CU
Will the extra 12 CU make that big of a difference?
Can someone like dictator chime in?
It's more that they're very close, but each one has its own advantages over the other. PS5 has advantages in rasterization performance and big advantages in I/O and 3D audio, whereas Xbox has more raw compute power and a little more CPU power, and is likely to push resolutions a little higher in third party games.
You'll see see a very small difference in resolution and that's probably it. The difference between PS5 and XSX is significantly smaller than between the PS4 Pro and X1X, and the PS5 has its own advantages (though third party devs probably won't take full advantage of them).
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They flat out said the stream was a replacement of an event scheduled for GDC, i don't know why people are so shocked when they set themselves up for disappointment. It really comes off as a huge overreaction because people don't want to admit they were expecting more then just dry details. Like, I can't see why anyone would be so upset about this and claim "Sony dropped the ball on marketing". What?? That stream wasn't directed at a mainstream audience since it was a GDC event. Could the social media posts been a little more specific? Yes, but jesus christ people.
See, this is why I always chose dead writers to report on. Although the thought of Vonnegut coming back just to roast me is scaring enough on its own
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