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SonovaBeach

Member
Dec 14, 2017
187
To speak to the bolded specifically, even if he supposedly renounced his affiliation with the movement in the 2017 Waypoint article, his previous membership among the group is not in question. He defended the campaign repeatedly, he used the hashtag on his own accord, he retweeted their misinformation, and more. He was, loud and proud, a GGer in 2014 and 2015. I'm not interested in making a smear post so I'm not going to link anything, but there is plenty of documentation of his enthusiastic participation.

In the 2017 Waypoint article, he also takes the position that GG was hijacked by extremists, which is absolutely not true. This is an extremely dangerous and legitimizing narrative that should not be perpetuated. This is an outright fabrication of scenario. It is a lie that is easily and demonstrably proven false. It was a movement founded on misogyny and harassment. This is the actual, literal inciting incident for the campaign. It began to destroy one woman and then became an identity movement against all women and minorities. It was always a harassment campaign. It was always an extremist campaign. This is well documented and proliferated by its own participants.

There was never at any time any physical organization, mission, or intention to address journalistic ethics. This revisionism that people try to pass around is a lie that should not be tolerated. "It's actually about ethics in games journalism" was not a legitimate or compelling excuse back then and "for me, I was only in it for the ethics in games journalism" is not a legitimate or compelling excuse now.

I think its a fair question to ask how some supposedly decent people got involved with a hate and harassment campaign that sought to eliminate the influence of women and minorities from video games. Somebody asked Tim Soret this question and his answer seemed honest but also super lame. I agree with you that he isn't a GGer today. But he sure used to be and his attempts to distance himself from that history have been weak. You can make of that what you will and your mileage may vary but Tim Soret said some vile things that contributed directly to a hate movement and "I only cared about some parts" and "I wasn't one of the bad ones" is hardly a compelling case for forgiveness.


I hope that he works out whatever his actual politics and beliefs are and I hope he fully accepts the seriousness of his older rhetoric. I wish him no ill will but I don't have any interest in his material either. Who knows what the most recent version of TLN is actually about. At one time he said it was an reactionary take-down about feminism and social services. Then he said it wasn't. Maybe his politics really did change. Maybe his game did too. But if I was a major publisher who was advertising this game, there'd be some assurances I was looking for. I don't get the impression Microsoft was confident in Soret's explanation. Neither are a lot of other people.

I will never defend any gamergater, and I will not defend what he said in the past (and to be absolutely honest, a little bit in the present, too). However, I do believe some people were mislead into thinking this movement was something else than harassment toward women and minorities (which it indeed was and has always been). Not for long, obviously : those who still give the excuse that it was about ethics in games journalism are lying.

But as a French guy, I kind of see a similar pattern in the gilets jaunes ("Yellow Jacket"), although this case is far more complex and somewhat confusing. It started with people tired of the gasoline prices. Then it felt like the far-right managed to infiltrate the movement, and we saw more and more racist claims from the gilets jaunes that tried to link the growth of the prices with immigration (the first month or so). Now it feels a little bit more like a progressive movement, with environmental and social claims, but what they are striking for is still not truly stated and it's still a very complicated topic.

I know this is not exactly the perfect comparison (and I'm still not aware of everything that is going on with the gilets jaunes), but in this case people who were actually striking because of the gas prices were suddenly linked to far-right statements, which was not the case for every one of these people who actually had very good reasons to be mad at the government, but were in the middle of strikes with anti-immigration people.

Anyway, I am not defending what Tim says, and I was also not aware of everything he said in the past (thank you for clarifying some of the stuff I obviously did not know), but I think the situation is a little more complex than just "he's a terrible person that wants to make people scared of the SJWs through a cyberpunk game". I mean... I don't know. I hope he does not prove me wrong. He's in a really "art should challenge people's views" these days which does not sound good from someone like him.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
If you like cyberpunk, wonderfully realized pixel art and adventure games there's this other game releasing just next month.



Now you don't need The Last Night anymore.

While Last Night deserves to be relegated to the trash bin, this game doesn't come close to the visual flair it had.


Basically compare the trailers in this game to Octopath traveler and you see how Octopath is much closer to Last Night.

The big differences are major 3d assets and visual tricks that usually are only done in AA and AAA games.

This recommended game doesn't have realistic smoke, water or crowd animations. The visual tech doesn't come close to 2DHD quality.
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
I think that the visual style of this game is something that we're going to see replicated and iterated to death within the next five years in larger, better games. Octopath Traveler already has a similar general style and received a lot of praise for it. Once you strip this game of its stylistic trappings, there really isn't anything (so far) to grab onto.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
I know this is not exactly the perfect comparison (and I'm still not aware of everything that is going on with the gilets jaunes), but in this case people who were actually striking because of the gas prices were suddenly linked to far-right statements, which was not the case for every one of these people who actually had very good reasons to be mad at the government, but were in the middle of strikes with anti-immigration people.

Anyway, I am not defending what Tim says, and I was also not aware of everything he said in the past (thank you for clarifying some of the stuff I obviously did not know), but I think the situation is a little more complex than just "he's a terrible person that wants to make people scared of the SJWs through a cyberpunk game". I mean... I don't know. I hope he does not prove me wrong. He's in a really "art should challenge people's views" these days which does not sound good from someone like him.

What you're saying makes sense - but it doesn't address the fact that he lost his publishing deal with Microsoft for a reason, nor that his behavior on twitter is largely the same. He's a principled idiot who may come around...or sink further into the "white male persecution" rabbit hole. It doesn't help that so many altright have flocked around his game in the meantime and he hasn't done much to dismiss the concerns raised against him or the crowd he's harboring.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
It's been a few months but I'd say my post from January on this subject still applies:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/updates-on-the-last-nights-development.90621/post-16466486

I'm getting an increasingly strong feeling that this isn't coming out. I think I've said in the past that we give Tim Soret too much credit and big him up unnecessarily, and this thread seems to do that.

I can understand why people do that. His values and points of view are objectionable to many of us and we generally feel a need to respond to stuff that we find offensive or ill conceived.

Nothing that I've seen so far gives much more than an impression of what the gameplay is going to be like. It's been a year and a half since the trailer at E3 and I don't think there's even been more footage outside of a handful of things on Twitter. I'm not sure this is even a game at the moment, more an artfully done piece of concept work that runs in realtime in a game engine.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,431

Kinda making my point there. The dude seems to spend a considerable amount of thing on twitter decrying anything and everything, with sparing updates on the actual game.

After seemingly getting ditched by a platform owner they haven't said a peep about new publishing partnerships or similar. Two of the artists that were featured on the oddtales account have since moved on to other work, they posted that they were seeking direct funding from individuals and groups and haven't said much in that direction since.

It don't look good amigo.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
Kinda making my point there. The dude seems to spend a considerable amount of thing on twitter decrying anything and everything, with sparing updates on the actual game.

After seemingly getting ditched by a platform owner they haven't said a peep about new publishing partnerships or similar. Two of the artists that were featured on the oddtales account have since moved on to other work, they posted that they were seeking direct funding from individuals and groups and haven't said much in that direction since.

It don't look good amigo.

i mean, you can see this thread of his

https://twitter.com/timsoret/status/1111583546068619264

thats a week ago
 

Deleted member 55445

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 30, 2019
41
User Banned (2 Weeks): Antagonizing other members and repeatedly dismissing misogynistic rhetoric
The political nonsense is old news. The guy himself stated that they expanded the team and received a bigger budget but that their were some business issues that "he wouldn't discuss" that caused the delay of the game. This kind of stuff always happens for smaller games. You want to get your cyberpunk fill soon? Wait for 2077. Cause something tells me The Last Night is going to take a while. Personally, I have nothing against his views and I'm looking forward to the game.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
The political nonsense is old news. The guy himself stated that they expanded the team and received a bigger budget but that their were some business issues that "he wouldn't discuss" that caused the delay of the game. This kind of stuff always happens for smaller games. You want to get your cyberpunk fill soon? Wait for 2077. Cause something tells me The Last Night is going to take a while. Personally, I have nothing against his views and I'm looking forward to the game.

It's not nonsense mate.
 

SonovaBeach

Member
Dec 14, 2017
187
What you're saying makes sense - but it doesn't address the fact that he lost his publishing deal with Microsoft for a reason, nor that his behavior on twitter is largely the same. He's a principled idiot who may come around...or sink further into the "white male persecution" rabbit hole. It doesn't help that so many altright have flocked around his game in the meantime and he hasn't done much to dismiss the concerns raised against him or the crowd he's harboring.

We don't really know the reason why Microsoft left them, do we ? They bought Minecraft and its creator might be the worst person in the whole video game world.
That being said, I've looked a bit more at his recent Twitter posts and indeed, it does not look good. So my "give him a second chance" argument is becoming more and more irrelevant, unfortunally.
 

Deleted member 55445

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 30, 2019
41
No, I'm not going to educate you - thats on you. There's plenty of articles and resources out there that can explain it to you. This isn't even up for debate, the dude was a misogynistic, privileged ass.
So you can't back up your claim? Ok, understood. Then he's not a misogynist, innocent until proven guilty.
 

Deleted member 55445

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 30, 2019
41
Let's start with the setting of the game... dystopia caused by feminism.
From wikipedia: "Tim Soret said that while The Last Night has themes that others see as right-wing, such as criticizing the concept of Universal Basic Income, his goal with the game is not to be critical of these elements, but only to describe a world that took a certain trajectory to implement these elements, for better or worse, and explore the new problems that were introduced. Soret compared this approach to the movies Gattaca and Wall-E, neither of which he felt politicized the situation and further supported the belief that the tweets had been overblown by a few people trying to create a controversy to benefit themselves."

Nope, nothing about feminism here. I disagree with his take on universal basic income but I do so respectfully and I'm sure these themes will be explored with tact, as they are in all proper science fiction.
 

Deleted member 11479

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,053
From wikipedia: "Tim Soret said that while The Last Night has themes that others see as right-wing, such as criticizing the concept of Universal Basic Income, his goal with the game is not to be critical of these elements, but only to describe a world that took a certain trajectory to implement these elements, for better or worse, and explore the new problems that were introduced. Soret compared this approach to the movies Gattaca and Wall-E, neither of which he felt politicized the situation and further supported the belief that the tweets had been overblown by a few people trying to create a controversy to benefit themselves."

Nope, nothing about feminism here. I disagree with his take on universal basic income but I do so respectfully and I'm sure these themes will be explored with tact, as they are in all proper science fiction.
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???
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,431

Where is the game in this though? I don't mean the finished product specifically. I mean what about this is a playable, engrossing activity?

What he seems to have created is a set of very specific, very unique and striking tools.

I think soret is clearly someone with a very strong, self taught background in art and graphic design. His strengths lie there but without anyone to steer him and direct what he's doing into a fun, interactive experience he is in danger of making something that will be quickly forgotten.

That's what I mean when I say this place gives him too much credit.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
Where is the game in this though? I don't mean the finished product specifically. I mean what about this is a playable, engrossing activity?

What he seems to have created is a set of very specific, very unique and striking tools.

I think soret is clearly someone with a very strong, self taught background in art and graphic design. His strengths lie there but without anyone to steer him and direct what he's doing into a fun, interactive experience he is in danger of making something that will be quickly forgotten.

That's what I mean when I say this place gives him too much credit.

I agree with you in totality there - its all too often the case of having a pretty layer of visuals without thinking through on the game itself.

Whoa, dude. A five year old tweet. That sure convinced me. As I said before, ancient news. He's already gone on record and said he dumped this stupid idea because it sucked. His new premise sounds a lot more interesting.

No, you said it was political nonsense, and then proceeded to defend him as not being misogynistic.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Whoa, dude. A five year old tweet. That sure convinced me. As I said before, ancient news. He's already gone on record and said he dumped this stupid idea because it sucked. His new premise sounds a lot more interesting.
The jury is still out on the new premise. (Has he even explained what it is in any detail?) That the original premise is what it was, and that he promoted it as GG-bait, does not exactly evoke a sense of confidence that the "new" premise will be a significant improvement.
 

Deleted member 11479

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,053
Whoa, dude. A five year old tweet. That sure convinced me. As I said before, ancient news. He's already gone on record and said he dumped this stupid idea because it sucked. His new premise sounds a lot more interesting.
So? Can you please show me where he has apologised for, and condemned those views he so actively and publicly promoted 5 years ago? Just saying that the game is not about that anymore does not really change anything.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,048
Whoa, dude. A five year old tweet. That sure convinced me. As I said before, ancient news. He's already gone on record and said he dumped this stupid idea because it sucked. His new premise sounds a lot more interesting.
Wasn't he found to be liking some pretty questionable tweets after he claimed to have changed?

If so, whether he was sincere or not seems shaky at best after that.
 
Last edited:
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
So? Can you please show me where he has apologised for, and condemned those views he so actively and publicly promoted 5 years ago? Just saying that the game is not about that anymore does not really change anything.

I mean they got banned so no, can't show it lol.

But the answer is clear: he attempted to distance himself from GG by saying "extremists" took it over even though this was never the case. It was a hate-group thinly disguised as an "ethics movement" from day 1. To this day he endorses shitty people and movements, as succinctly put by Spring-Loaded

If you're checking Tim Soret's twitter, look through his likes just from this past month to find tweets from Glenn Greenwald, support for Ben Shapiro, pro-Kavanaugh (U.S. Supreme Court Justice dogged his own sketchy history of rape), pro-Trump crap, etc.

So to recap:
  • Loud-and-proud GamerGater. Not just someone who misunderstood, someone who was actively anti-feminist to the point of conceptualizing a game around antagonizing it
  • Later claimed GG was taken over by "extremists" (lol)
  • Setting of game changes to another "what-if", unsurprisingly just so HAPPENS to trash on different progressive policies
  • Continues to espouse alt-right rhetoric through his twitter endorsements
...and yet we're somehow supposed to believe this game is not political, making a statement, and that he has "evolved" beyond GG. Anyone trying to push this narrative is being actively disingenuous or just flat out not paying attention.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,365
The controversy surrounding this game due to the creator's views is an interesting one, because i've never really before had to confront the idea of if i can separate the art from the artist. Now art might be a grandiose term when thinking of videogames but this is a game thats initial trailer really blew me away and made me interested to play it. But by all accounts the guy behind it has views that sharply contrast with my own. If this game ever does come out i'll have to make a decision if i choose to boycott the game because of this Tim Soret guy. On the one hand this isn't a solo project, there will have been a team of people working on it, some who probably (hopefully?) don't share his views, there is an argument that could be made if those people also deserve to have their work be boycott? Then again Tim Soret would directly benefit in terms of royalties etc from sales of this game.

If i chose to not play the game out of principle due to Tim then i might as well stop playing games all-together. Because most games are made by vast amounts of people all involved in some way in the production of them and some of them are bound to have views just as shitty or even more so than Mr Soret, they just may not be public about it. Does ignorance about that give me a free pass? Hell, i could apply this thinking to all aspects of my life, and then i would be in real trouble.
 

Ash735

Banned
Sep 4, 2018
907
It's such a shame what happened to this game, the art style, look, feel, music scored by LORN, etc, and then the creator turned out to be a idiot. All that potential wasted.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
If i chose to not play the game out of principle due to Tim then i might as well stop playing games all-together. Because most games are made by vast amounts of people all involved in some way in the production of them and some of them are bound to have views just as shitty or even more so than Mr Soret, they just may not be public about it. Does ignorance about that give me a free pass? Hell, i could apply this thinking to all aspects of my life, and then i would be in real trouble.

That's being disingenuous - this is his brainchild, his concept and his vision. You're not going to assign that same kind of responsibility on a random member of staff on production who happens to be, say, sexist. This is very much about the end product - there's no separating the art from the artist in this situation. When he expressly states those points of view from his own personal twitter you realize that his original game pitch was an extension of his own ideology.

We don't know what happened since the backlash, and he may have scrubbed everything out - but there is no denying how harmful and misguided his views are, even today.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,365
That's being disingenuous - this is his brainchild, his concept and his vision. You're not going to assign that same kind of responsibility on a random member of staff on production who happens to be, say, sexist. This is very much about the end product - there's no separating the art from the artist in this situation. When he expressly states those points of view from his own personal twitter you realize that his original game pitch was an extension of his own ideology.

We don't know what happened since the backlash, and he may have scrubbed everything out - but there is no denying how harmful and misguided his views are, even today.

Well sure, hence why i'm torn. But in terms of separating the art from the artist, we do it all the time on a much grander scale. Look at how many companies that are thriving and around today who had ties to the Nazi's. So BMW, Mercedes Benz, Hugo Boss, Deutsche Bank, VW, Bosch to name but a scant few. Those companies were involved with people that committed some of the worst atrocities mankind has ever seen and yet no one gives a shit. Here we have one person with horrible and misguided views and there's lots of talk about boycotting the end product, which is fair enough. But then if you're gonna do that in this case why stop there? I would hazard a guess that many people who would consider themselves on the moral high ground for not giving this Tim Soret guy any money (if this game ever does see the light of day) probably directly and indirectly contribute or support individuals and companies that are far worse comparatively than some Gamergate idiot.
 

Var

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,310
Well sure, hence why i'm torn. But in terms of separating the art from the artist, we do it all the time on a much grander scale. Look at how many companies that are thriving and around today who had ties to the Nazi's. So BMW, Mercedes Benz, Hugo Boss, Deutsche Bank, VW, Bosch to name but a scant few. Those companies were involved with people that committed some of the worst atrocities mankind has ever seen and yet no one gives a shit. Here we have one person with horrible and misguided views and there's lots of talk about boycotting the end product, which is fair enough. But then if you're gonna do that in this case why stop there? I would hazard a guess that many people who would consider themselves on the moral high ground for not giving this Tim Soret guy any money (if this game ever does see the light of day) probably directly and indirectly contribute or support individuals and companies that are far worse comparatively than some Gamergate idiot.

Just because you can't boycot every bad company on earth doesn't mean you shouldn't boycott any of them. Everyone gets to draw the line where it makes sense to them. Just do as much good as you can for the causes that matter to you and don't worry about being perfect with it.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,388
Looks like they are still working on it for sure.
Im sure they are just underground as media is alittle worried to cover them.

If its a quiet Gamepass launch.
Ill still download it and give it a go.

 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
6,487
I wish the team all the best, and hopefully they & their project mature into something worthwhile... but I'm not counting on it. It sure was a pretty trailer though, wasn't it?