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Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Sorry, I know it's a huge generalization on my part, I just ran with a crowd off woe is me, everyone is out to get me nerds and it's a weird subject for me.
I know it wasn't like that for everyone, and some kids got a real bad deal, and I shouldn't let my own experiences cloud how I see things.

Well I'll say this as someone who used to skirt the edge of these types (used to use SJW as a term but not very often and was always a moderate...then I realized how bigoted my 'side' was and the rest is history)

There's a real sense of "Why are you going into OUR safe space and telling us the things we like are Harmful and Problematic? Why can't we just be left alone? Stop changing the things we liked." in the gaming community.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
10,012
I just wanna know why its so mainstream and popular on Youtube. I look at any game trailer or gameplay video and all the side bar recommend videos are "5 reasons why Battlefield v sucks is SJW trash" 800,000 views " Sony pander to SJWs epic fail" 372,000 views like wth why are these so common I never even clicked much less care about these I even get that random Sargon guy on my Jim Sterling and Mega64 recommended and never even watched his stuff before. Its weird getting all these sjw buzzwordstagged on recommended regular game trailers

YouTube's recommendation algorithms are actually a big problem in my opinion. As they tend to create and foster communities in bubbles, all focusing on the same ideals and beliefs. The more videos like that you watch, the more you will get recommended, and soon you will be overwhelmed with such content. If you are one whose mind is easily influenced, you could be going down a very bad rabbit hole.

This unfortunately happens with way too many people, especially teenagers and young adults who are looking for a sense of belonging.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Depends on what markets the publisher is selling in. If you're making an international product catering to international consumers diversity of representation might help your revenue
Depends on the specific game, may or may not. But I agree that it's something a developer should do statistical analysis and marketing research studies into

If Witcher 3 had a few token black NPCs, would that have caused it to sell way more? Personally I would guess that would not have made a noticeable difference in sales

but I do not work in the video game industry, so that's a guess based on feel
 

Akai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,058
These people are just sad miserable piles of something. I try to not waste any energy on them and usually ignore/block them.

The product of the Trump era and alt right. Unfortunately that makes me think it will get worse with kids/teens growing up with Trump as president.

It was a thing way before the Trump and alt-right era, but those definitely amplified the issue by a lot. That and it being incredible easy to post anonymously on websites and not having to worry about any repercussions.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
YouTube's recommendation algorithms are actually a big problem in my opinion. As they tend to create and foster communities in bubbles, all focusing on the same ideals and beliefs. The more videos like that you watch, the more you will get recommended, and soon you will be overwhelmed with such content. If you are one whose mind is easily influenced, you could be going down a very bad rabbit hole.

This unfortunately happens with way too many people, especially teenagers and young adults who are looking for a sense of belonging.
100% YouTube repeatedly gets away with helping to radicalise teenagers.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,971
They're bitches who are attention-seeking trolls to make up for their extremely boring lives but sees themselves as redpilled saviours of gaming when the most they do is jerk off to anime girls and repeats « cartoon characters don't have rights » to justify jacking off to concerning drawings
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
its a way to try to defend a conservative political PoV in games, they say "no politics inside my games "but they will get fireworks if its a game against feminism and minorities and then that "no politics in my games" is ignored.
the anti-sjw is a political movement and statement that asks for no politics in games when they are bringing politics in games, if thats make any sense.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
A lot of people have convinced young men that there's a cultur war going on and they're losing, that their toys will be taken away. The Social Justice Warrior is just one personification of that fear, so that is the enemy.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Yeah but personally I can understand why. Have you studied or looked into Japan's citizen demographics? For example, there are literally less than 0.01% black citizens in Japan's population.

I visited Japan once on a 2-week visit, to most of the major large cities. I don't think I saw one single black citizen the entire time (not counting US military or obvious tourists). And this is walking through many crowded subways and crowded city streets/centers

So I assume that's what Japanese people are used to
Sure, but a lot of these companies have been worldwide publishers with a worldwide audience for decades. They don't exist in a vacuum, they don't create these games in a vacuum. They read overseas critique of their games and I'm sure they see complaints about these kinds of topics (this is evident by some of the comments made by developers when some progressive/more inclusive topics or topics of better representation have come up).

As I said, I don't think it's too horrible that a historical or even a contemporary game that takes place in Japan/Tokyo doesn't have a third of NPCs & PCs represent minorities. It does reflect their society. At that point it's more of an issue of QUALITY instead of quality. Whatever women, gays, or black people they have are reeeeeeally badly handled much/most of the time. The issue of quantity mostly comes in with especially bigger worldwide publishers' games that don't take place in the real world/Japan. Big publishers like SQEX should be more conscious about representation then (quality & quantity).
 

goldenpp73

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,144
User Banned (1 week): Dismissing Concerns on Representation and Inclusivity Over a Series of Posts
Some people like myself just don't want to deal with social or political issues in games at all, and like games to be an escape from this stuff. It isn't so much that it being in the game is a bother, but more so the discussion of it. Oddly, I rarely ever care what's in the game itself, so if I end up playing as a girl, a black person, or a pink bunny, it really doesn't matter to me. The problem is when people like me want to go discuss it, we either get plunged on a forum that is racist and sexist, or on a forums that seek to find offense in anything or demand progress in everything. Everything has to become a 'we need to discuss' or a demand of inclusiveness, and it's exhausting.

I'd always prefer to play as Sonic and I wouldn't care if Mega Man had black skin, I also have played probably hundreds of games starring women, I literally do not care who or what I play as, and just prefer to discuss the game for what it is. You used to be able to do that but it really is hard to find a happy middle these days. People are becoming obsessed with defending their horrible ways while others are becoming obsessed with their progressive ways, one is better than the other but it's emotionally exhausting for sure.

When you put Mario under the gun because he rescues a princess, you need to take a step back in my mind and look at what you're doing. Not everything needs to be 'progressive', if it SHOULD be then by all means, games that allows selections or customization as example, should always be pressed on this stuff. I just wonder if the people who always obsess over these issues, are they really happy people in their daily lives, or are they like the guy I ran into the other day who was on a date while yelling about 'that bitch AOC!!' during his entire dinner, that just seems like a miserable way to live, to never be able to just extract joy out of something without worrying about what it isn't doing.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,971
However I don't think this is a white issue. It's definitely a man issue but this is extremely prevalent regardless of race, lots of non-white ppl harbours the same views even if it harms them the most. It's not an issue of diversity when a lot of ppl from various backgrounds inherently believes whiteness is the norm as it was cultivated in video games.
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,206
YouTube's recommendation algorithms are actually a big problem in my opinion. As they tend to create and foster communities in bubbles, all focusing on the same ideals and beliefs. The more videos like that you watch, the more you will get recommended, and soon you will be overwhelmed with such content. If you are one whose mind is easily influenced, you could be going down a very bad rabbit hole.

This unfortunately happens with way too many people, especially teenagers and young adults who are looking for a sense of belonging.

Yup, I've started deleting political content off my YouTube channel because the second i start to watch anything i get a flood of political propaganda sent my way. Its really annoying and i think you're completely right.

I also firmly believe the internet as a whole has made it very difficult for proper discourse to happen. Its to easy for emotions to take over while also building up walls to keep anything you dont want to hear away from you. The result is everyone yelling into a void.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
It's not just games. These motherfuckers ruin every comment section
 

Wulfric

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,972
Also, this is not only a white guy-only thing. A lot of Latino cultures within the US have strong religious/conservative views. It really seems to be an outcry among conservative men in many countries when it comes to the representation of women and LGBT within media.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Also, this is not only a white guy-only thing. A lot of Latino cultures within the US have strong religious/conservative views.
This is absolutely true. I live in TEXAS and there are tons of religious/conservative Latinos and Hispanics, some who even vote Republican as weird as that may sound
 

Deleted member 35077

Self-requested ban
Banned
Dec 1, 2017
3,999
Sure, but a lot of these companies have been worldwide publishers with a worldwide audience for decades. They don't exist in a vacuum, they don't create these games in a vacuum. They read overseas critique of their games and I'm sure they see complaints about these kinds of topics (this is evident by some of the comments made by developers when some progressive/more inclusive topics or topics of better representation have come up).

Yes, but likewise they also get comments telling them to continue what they are doing, and that there isn't anything wrong with their games. This could possibly be the mindset they think western fans generally think, as things such as the Famitsu western poll reinforces such opinions. Go read up on it, and you would see no negative opinion whatsoever, but things such as 2B's giant ass is openly highlighted to any reader to read.

 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,225
YouTube's recommendation algorithms are actually a big problem in my opinion. As they tend to create and foster communities in bubbles, all focusing on the same ideals and beliefs. The more videos like that you watch, the more you will get recommended, and soon you will be overwhelmed with such content. If you are one whose mind is easily influenced, you could be going down a very bad rabbit hole.

This unfortunately happens with way too many people, especially teenagers and young adults who are looking for a sense of belonging.

this might also explain other anti-intellectual movements like the flat earth and anti-vaxxers. the idea that everyone else is blind and you're the only one seeing things the right away maaaaan.
 

MrCibb

Member
Dec 12, 2018
5,349
UK
People are fine with politics in games. There's always been politics in video games and that has not stopped and will not stop. When this is said, what they really mean "Keep things I don't like out of games." And the things on their list of things they don't like often include women, black people, LGBT, and things like that. It's best to ignore it and hope your favourite video game developer does the same.
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,160
France
Some people like myself just don't want to deal with social or political issues in games at all, and like games to be an escape from this stuff. It isn't so much that it being in the game is a bother, but more so the discussion of it. Oddly, I rarely ever care what's in the game itself, so if I end up playing as a girl, a black person, or a pink bunny, it really doesn't matter to me. The problem is when people like me want to go discuss it, we either get plunged on a forum that is racist and sexist, or on a forums that seek to find offense in anything or demand progress in everything. Everything has to become a 'we need to discuss' or a demand of inclusiveness, and it's exhausting.

I'd always prefer to play as Sonic and I wouldn't care if Mega Man had black skin, I also have played probably hundreds of games starring women, I literally do not care who or what I play as, and just prefer to discuss the game for what it is. You used to be able to do that but it really is hard to find a happy middle these days. People are becoming obsessed with defending their horrible ways while others are becoming obsessed with their progressive ways, one is better than the other but it's emotionally exhausting for sure.

When you put Mario under the gun because he rescues a princess, you need to take a step back in my mind and look at what you're doing. Not everything needs to be 'progressive', if it SHOULD be then by all means, games that allows selections or customization as example, should always be pressed on this stuff. I just wonder if the people who always obsess over these issues, are they really happy people in their daily lives, or are they like the guy I ran into the other day who was on a date while yelling about 'that bitch AOC!!' during his entire dinner, that just seems like a miserable way to live, to never be able to just extract joy out of something without worrying about what it isn't doing.

I suggest you keep trying to discuss the games for what they are then, since that's supposedly what you want to do.

Cause what you're doing right now isn't that, it's both-sidesing the fuck out of the issues, and I'm not sure why you'd expect anything other than a proper pile-on in that case.

Nobody is preventing you to discuss "just the game", whatever that means.
 

sph3re

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
8,442
It's not just games. These motherfuckers ruin every comment section
39387.jpg


lol


People saying "they're just trolls" clearly have no idea the impact this alt-right bullshit has had on the world. I (unfortunately) have heard my inner circle of friends using language like this constantly, parroting toxic viewpoints and unironically using "SJW" as some regressive slur.

They're not trolls. It's out there and it's real. Take it seriously.
 

adj_noun

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,406
KEEP POLITICS OUT OF GAMES

sounds better than

DON'T CHANGE THE NARRATIVE STATUS QUO I AM USED TO AND HAVE ENJOYED SINCE BIRTH

I've never understood how they're able to reconcile mocking their ideological opponents as being effete losers who quail at the sight of anything that affects their delicate sensibilities, yet at the first hint of devs daring to explore something outside the norm their spines turn to jelly as they rend their clothes and gnash their teeth.
 

BuckRogers

Member
Apr 5, 2018
775
Some people like myself just don't want to deal with social or political issues in games at all, and like games to be an escape from this stuff. It isn't so much that it being in the game is a bother, but more so the discussion of it. Oddly, I rarely ever care what's in the game itself, so if I end up playing as a girl, a black person, or a pink bunny, it really doesn't matter to me. The problem is when people like me want to go discuss it, we either get plunged on a forum that is racist and sexist, or on a forums that seek to find offense in anything or demand progress in everything. Everything has to become a 'we need to discuss' or a demand of inclusiveness, and it's exhausting.

I'd always prefer to play as Sonic and I wouldn't care if Mega Man had black skin, I also have played probably hundreds of games starring women, I literally do not care who or what I play as, and just prefer to discuss the game for what it is. You used to be able to do that but it really is hard to find a happy middle these days. People are becoming obsessed with defending their horrible ways while others are becoming obsessed with their progressive ways, one is better than the other but it's emotionally exhausting for sure.

When you put Mario under the gun because he rescues a princess, you need to take a step back in my mind and look at what you're doing. Not everything needs to be 'progressive', if it SHOULD be then by all means, games that allows selections or customization as example, should always be pressed on this stuff. I just wonder if the people who always obsess over these issues, are they really happy people in their daily lives, or are they like the guy I ran into the other day who was on a date while yelling about 'that bitch AOC!!' during his entire dinner, that just seems like a miserable way to live, to never be able to just extract joy out of something without worrying about what it isn't doing.

This is a fucking terrible take. The politics are there whether you want them to be or not. Every work of art in history reflects the thoughts, beliefs and feelings of the people that created it. Those are influenced by the society and politics those people are raised and live in. Discussing how those influences show in the work one of the foundations of critical analysis, and burying your head in the sand and pretending it's the critics injecting politics into the discussion, when really it's the developers (possibly unwittingly) doing so is foolish and ignorant.

This sort of criticism exists for movies, for TV, for books, and if you want games to be actually taken seriously as a medium, you have to accept that some people are going to actually, you know, take them seriously. And if you don't think they should be taken seriously, then what the feel are you doing here?
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
Similar to religion, people like to feel a part of something bigger than themselves, so they attatch themselves to stuff to feel empowered and important - even when it means cutting their nose off to spite their face
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,897
Quite simply, they are entitled children who feel like their hobby becoming more inclusive somehow diminishes their identity. They feel like these gaming trends are signifying some sort of cultural erasure for the "gamer". Basically, they are ignorant, juvenile, miscreants. They are lashing out because they are afraid, and they are afraid because ignorant people feel like everything that doesn't fit into the confines of the tiny reality they have built for themselves in their minds is a threat.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,174
Out of curiosity whats an example of someone saying not to put politics into their game? Is it reference to them not wanting things like diversity and inclusion in their games, or is it they don't want the game to deal with political themes in the story?
It can go both ways. Nominally when it's something like inclusion or diversity, it's seen as an outside political influence. One would believe that not immediately catering with the same sort of protagonist could be seen as a social and political inclusion for the sake of it. If it's something like Wolfenstien 2, which wears the political commentary on its sleeve, there will also be complaints. If it's not overt and you can basically ignore it to, you know, shoot bang, then apparently there's no real backlash unless you try to mention it.

I just put them all under the category of babies.
 

goldenpp73

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,144
I suggest you keep trying to discuss the games for what they are then, since that's supposedly what you want to do.

Cause what you're doing right now isn't that, it's both-sidesing the fuck out of the issues, and I'm not sure why you'd expect anything other than a proper pile-on in that case.

Nobody is preventing you to discuss "just the game", whatever that means.

People absolutely do inject into neutral topics about their social or political issues, it would be pretty strange to try and say otherwise. It's easy to avoid a topic titled as such, not so much when a topic is simply an official thread or something. There is no 'both sides' to this, the line for evil people is pretty clear to me, it's just that people like yourself decide to identify anyone who isn't exactly your line of thought as an enemy, which only makes your cause harder to achieve. We're a lot closer to on the same side of social issues i'm sure, than the people you would run into on other sites. I don't post here because I secretly hate minorities, women and gay people and think I'll be converting the users that's for sure.

I try to be a friend of most everyone really, until I find you annoying enough to not want to deal with any further. Your post comes off as aggressive, and it only reinforces my curiosity of why everyone seems so angry these days. Boogie is a both sides shithead, i'm just a guy who enjoys his hobby and prefers not to have princess peach turned into an object of evil for being a damsel in distress. I have seen people on this forum go as far as condemning girls who like that trope or like 'girly' things because they reinforce stereotypes, as if everything that's a stereotype is by default bad. People here want people like myself to not be allowed to think how we think without backlash, and I find that creepy to be honest.

I saw this topic and decided to chime in that while many are just jackasses who shit up Youtube comment sections, there are genuinely neutral hobbyist who also do wish for progress in the industry, and are not by default bad people, but thanks for the comment.
 

sph3re

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
8,442
KEEP POLITICS OUT OF GAMES

sounds better than

DON'T CHANGE THE NARRATIVE STATUS QUO I AM USED TO AND HAVE ENJOYED SINCE BIRTH

I've never understood how they're able to reconcile mocking their ideological opponents as being effete losers who quail at the sight of anything that affects their delicate sensibilities, yet at the first hint of devs daring to explore something outside the norm their spines turn to jelly as they rend their clothes and gnash their teeth.
Fucking Status Quo Warriors ruining my games with their white men
 

Deleted member 47654

user requested account closure
Banned
Sep 10, 2018
2,612
I'm a brown skinned mexican guy (a minority in Videogame industry except in majority of Rockstar's games) and i hate when developers or companies handle these topics as a selling point to their games, it makes me feel like a bunch of dollars instead of a persona.
Just do it like Bioware did with James Vega in Mass Effect 3, just put your character in your game and thats it, dont fight with your fanbase (even if said fanbase is shit) like DICE did.
James Vega is the best Mexican character in videogames (Well, in Mass Effect México, USA and Canada are the same country, but you get it) and i'm proud of what it means for me. I really like James Vega because he looks like me, talks like me and acts like me and i found him as a surprise, nobody told me: "In this game you will find a character made to represent you and Latino people, you will buy our game and you will love said character"
Thats where Bioware nailed it and they made me feel as a person, not a number.
PD: f*ck people saying that James Vega is a Bad character, even if he was written by Mac Walters.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
They think it's cool to dunk on games that appear progressive in any way, because the more progress there is the less that games cater exclusively to them.

It's inevitable that inclusion and diversity will happen though, and gaming will be all the better and more popular because of it.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,398
Japan's a VERY homogenous country, so its kind of strange to expect American style diversity from them, don't you think?

They sell their games in the rest of the world, so they should expect the rest of the world to view it through their own cultural lens too. If they want to claim insularity, they're free to not sell their games in worldwide markets.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Some people like myself just don't want to deal with social or political issues in games at all, and like games to be an escape from this stuff. It isn't so much that it being in the game is a bother, but more so the discussion of it. Oddly, I rarely ever care what's in the game itself, so if I end up playing as a girl, a black person, or a pink bunny, it really doesn't matter to me. The problem is when people like me want to go discuss it, we either get plunged on a forum that is racist and sexist, or on a forums that seek to find offense in anything or demand progress in everything. Everything has to become a 'we need to discuss' or a demand of inclusiveness, and it's exhausting.

I'd always prefer to play as Sonic and I wouldn't care if Mega Man had black skin, I also have played probably hundreds of games starring women, I literally do not care who or what I play as, and just prefer to discuss the game for what it is. You used to be able to do that but it really is hard to find a happy middle these days. People are becoming obsessed with defending their horrible ways while others are becoming obsessed with their progressive ways, one is better than the other but it's emotionally exhausting for sure.

When you put Mario under the gun because he rescues a princess, you need to take a step back in my mind and look at what you're doing. Not everything needs to be 'progressive', if it SHOULD be then by all means, games that allows selections or customization as example, should always be pressed on this stuff. I just wonder if the people who always obsess over these issues, are they really happy people in their daily lives, or are they like the guy I ran into the other day who was on a date while yelling about 'that bitch AOC!!' during his entire dinner, that just seems like a miserable way to live, to never be able to just extract joy out of something without worrying about what it isn't doing.
We put "Mario under the gun because he rescues a princess" because that DOES have an effect. Mario games are aimed at children and a lot of children start to learn attitudes like "women can't be the heroes, they are princesses who need to be rescued" when playing them. Sure, Mario ALONE isn't turning boys into misogynistic pieces of shit, but it's just yet another outdated thing that feeds into a culture of undermining women and not giving them any kind of competency/agency. Couldn't Bowser just steal some magic artefact that Mario needs to get back so that Bowser doesn't use its powers to enslave the world to his rule? Why does it always have to be the helpless Princess Peach who doesn't even try to do anything to not be kidnapped?



And repeat with me: EVERYTHING IS POLITICAL. Games don't exist and aren't created in a vacuum. Making women helpless princesses, gays pedophiles and black people criminals, all of which are all too often still the stereotypical ways these demographics are portrayed, are actively harmful. They aren't apolitical. A game isn't apolitical just because it doesn't do anything out of the norm. You might be so ignorant and blind to the issues that you don't notice them or mind them when they push a worldview that you have internalized as "normal", but they are very real and they are very problematic in the larger scheme of things.
 

sph3re

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
8,442
I'm a brown skinned mexican guy (a minority in Videogame industry except in majority of Rockstar's games) and i hate when developers or companies threat this topics as a selling point, it makes me feel like a bunch of dollars instead of a persona.
Just do it like Bioware did with James Vega in Mass Effect 3, just put your character in your game and thats it, dont fight with your fanbase (even if said fanbase is shit) like DICE did.
James Vega is the best Mexican character in videogames (Well, in Mass Effect México, USA and Canada are the same country, but you get it) and i'm proud of what it means for me. I really like James Vega because he looks like me, talks like me and acts like me and i found him as a surprise, nobody told me: "In this game you will find a character made to represent you and Latino people, you will buy our game and you will love said character"
Thats where Bioware nailed it.
PD: f*ck people saying that James Vega is a Bad character, even if he was written by Mac Walters.
It does feel like a bit of posturing when a developer treats diversity as a selling point. I'm okay with a bit of posturing on their part, but I also expect more when they feel the need to mention it.

Like, when the devs of Tomb Raider 2013 went on and on about how Lara was going to be some great, strong female character, I got my hopes up. Then the game came out and I did not feel like she was that good of a character. Had they not said anything, I probably would have tempered my expectations a bit.

A good character will speak for themselves. I didn't need a movie director to tell me Killmonger was a great villain in Black Panther, he just was.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,129
VtM is a particularly hilarious one, considering what was going on in Bloodlines and what VtM and RPGs are all about. Ultimately it is not about "keeping politics out of gaming" it's "keep things I don't like out of gaming", whilst ignoring that the concept is completely regressive in comparison to what creators have been doing with their games since the rise of home console and PC gaming.
 

Plywood

Does not approve of this tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,086
These are the same people that will cry about games being taken seriously or viewed as art while not realizing that the medium will never elevate above toys if they keep spitting at any sign of progress.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
I saw this topic and decided to chime in that while many are just jackasses who shit up Youtube comment sections, there are genuinely neutral hobbyist who also do wish for progress in the industry, and are not by default bad people, but thanks for the comment

Logically if you don't really care who you play as in games and just want to play video games you should have no problem with Progressives trying to get more diversity in games. Yet in both of you post you've tried to paint those Progressives as being just as bad as the alt-right.

Interesting. Very interesting.
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,160
France
People absolutely do inject into neutral topics about their social or political issues, it would be pretty strange to try and say otherwise. It's easy to avoid a topic titled as such, not so much when a topic is simply an official thread or something. There is no 'both sides' to this, the line for evil people is pretty clear to me, it's just that people like yourself decide to identify anyone who isn't exactly your line of thought as an enemy, which only makes your cause harder to achieve. We're a lot closer to on the same side of social issues i'm sure, than the people you would run into on other sites. I don't post here because I secretly hate minorities, women and gay people and think I'll be converting the users that's for sure.

I try to be a friend of most everyone really, until I find you annoying enough to not want to deal with any further. Your post comes off as aggressive, and it only reinforces my curiosity of why everyone seems so angry these days. Boogie is a both sides shithead, i'm just a guy who enjoys his hobby and prefers not to have princess peach turned into an object of evil for being a damsel in distress. I have seen people on this forum go as far as condemning girls who like that trope or like 'girly' things because they reinforce stereotypes, as if everything that's a stereotype is by default bad. People here want people like myself to not be allowed to think how we think without backlash, and I find that creepy to be honest.

I saw this topic and decided to chime in that while many are just jackasses who shit up Youtube comment sections, there are genuinely neutral hobbyist who also do wish for progress in the industry, and are not by default bad people, but thanks for the comment.

Just in case you're really posting in good faith here, you gotta realize you're a supposedly neutral gamer that bothered to come in a thread like this to complain about politics in your videogames. Like, a tiny bit of self-reflection would be nice here.

You're not neutral, dude. You're taking a stance right now and raising so many red flags in the process it's already hard to keep count.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,977
*decades of games about WWII, Vietnam, modern military conflicts directly representational of modern situations*

Gamers: *silence*

*Decades of RPGs with commentary on religions, political movements, etc.*

Gamers: *silence*

*science fiction and fantasy settings meant to have real world parallels that are meant to be addressed*

Gamers: *silence*

*black people and women acknowledged and put on game covers*

Gamers: "WHEN DID GAMES GET POLITICAL? IT'S UNNECESSARY! SJW'S! VIRTUE SIGNALING!"
 

Deleted member 47654

user requested account closure
Banned
Sep 10, 2018
2,612
It does feel like a bit of posturing when a developer treats diversity as a selling point. I'm okay with a bit of posturing on their part, but I also expect more when they feel the need to mention it.

Like, when the devs of Tomb Raider 2013 went on and on about how Lara was going to be some great, strong female character, I got my hopes up. Then the game came out and I did not feel like she was that good of a character. Had they not said anything, I probably would have tempered my expectations a bit.

A good character will speak for themselves. I didn't need a movie director to tell me Killmonger was a great villain in Black Panther, he just was.
EXACTLY.
And talking about Tomb Raider, i cant play the games after Uncharted TLL came out, Chloe is a better Lara than CDynamics' Lara in every way, even Alicia Vikander's Lara was a better (and people seem to hate the movie)
 

sph3re

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
8,442
Some people like myself just don't want to deal with social or political issues in games at all, and like games to be an escape from this stuff. It isn't so much that it being in the game is a bother, but more so the discussion of it. Oddly, I rarely ever care what's in the game itself, so if I end up playing as a girl, a black person, or a pink bunny, it really doesn't matter to me. The problem is when people like me want to go discuss it, we either get plunged on a forum that is racist and sexist, or on a forums that seek to find offense in anything or demand progress in everything. Everything has to become a 'we need to discuss' or a demand of inclusiveness, and it's exhausting.

I'd always prefer to play as Sonic and I wouldn't care if Mega Man had black skin, I also have played probably hundreds of games starring women, I literally do not care who or what I play as, and just prefer to discuss the game for what it is. You used to be able to do that but it really is hard to find a happy middle these days. People are becoming obsessed with defending their horrible ways while others are becoming obsessed with their progressive ways, one is better than the other but it's emotionally exhausting for sure.

When you put Mario under the gun because he rescues a princess, you need to take a step back in my mind and look at what you're doing. Not everything needs to be 'progressive', if it SHOULD be then by all means, games that allows selections or customization as example, should always be pressed on this stuff. I just wonder if the people who always obsess over these issues, are they really happy people in their daily lives, or are they like the guy I ran into the other day who was on a date while yelling about 'that bitch AOC!!' during his entire dinner, that just seems like a miserable way to live, to never be able to just extract joy out of something without worrying about what it isn't doing.

Society progresses. A man saving a helpless woman from danger was fine (not really, but it was more common) back in the 80s, but Super Mario Bros. was 34 years ago. A man saving a helpless woman is not only a tired old trope, it's relies on the idea that women are helpless and can't save themselves.

Yes, Nintendo has characters like Samus, who are fucking badasses in their own right, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize other games for doing something wrong just because another game does something right. It's not a zero-sum game.

EXACTLY.
And talking about Tomb Raider, i cant play the games after Uncharted TLL came out, Chloe is a better Lara than CDynamics' Lara in every way, even Alicia Vikander's Lara was a better (and people seem to hate the movie)

I haven't played The Lost Legacy yet, but the idea of the two main characters being women is really cool to me.

I also hadn't read the marketing/news behind it, so if I were to play it, I wouldn't have any expectations going into it.

But that's me. Alt-right tools don't think like that. They just latch onto anything they can use to attack a game with minorities and play the victim. "WOW, THIS GAME HATES WHITE PEOPLE!" Like, if you're getting offended at the themes in Wolfenstein, I've got some news for you...
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Most of it is just trolling I think.

Some of it is actually political. Essentially the argument being attempting to 'force' change is against existing market demands, however, that's not true at all. We've always had very popular games with female leads, Tomb Raider being the obvious one, and we've had colossal hits starring people of colour, most notably GTA:SA.

The problem now with more gender related issues is a very real production limitation. He and she is easy enough to have voice actors deal with, when you get to an ever expanding list of pronouns, and vocal inflections, etc, there is some practical limitations developers are working with. It does stand out as particularly rotten in instances like Cyberpunk though, where just by way of the world you're presenting, you have to be actively avoiding gender issues to not address them on some level. In a world in which everything other than the brain is replaceable and customisable, you really can't not tackle the subject.

I want games to be political personally, Papers, Please is the most important game maybe ever. One thing interaction really can do is make you an active participant in a political debate. That's of far greater value than use rocket launcher on enemy.
 

goldenpp73

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,144
We put "Mario under the gun because he rescues a princess" because that DOES have an effect. Mario games are aimed at children and a lot of children start to learn attitudes like "women can't be the heroes, they are princesses who need to be rescued" when playing them. Sure, Mario ALONE isn't turning boys into misogynistic pieces of shit, but it's just yet another outdated thing that feeds into a culture of undermining women and not giving them any kind of competency/agency. Couldn't Bowser just steal some magic artefact that Mario needs to get back so that Bowser doesn't use its powers to enslave the world to his rule? Why does it always have to be the helpless Princess Peach who doesn't even try to do anything to not be kidnapped?



And repeat with me: EVERYTHING IS POLITICAL. Games don't exist and aren't created in a vacuum. Making women helpless princesses, gays pedophiles and black people criminals, all of which are all too often still the stereotypical ways these demographics are portrayed, are actively harmful. They aren't apolitical. A game isn't apolitical just because it doesn't do anything out of the norm. You might be so ignorant and blind to the issues that you don't notice them or mind them when they push a worldview that you have internalized as "normal", but they are very real and they are very problematic in the larger scheme of things.

Honestly this just comes off to me like insecure fathers who think their little boy playing with a barbie doll will make them gay. I'm a guy in my 30s and grew up with Disney movies and that trope in spades, yet I have no issue with strong women or playing as women in a role. I don't think games like Mario impact this stuff very much, influences like the people you are around will be 100x more damaging (or enlightening) than that time you rescued princess peach in a game. In my childhood I had a big sister who stood up for me and girl friends who I respected, the girl I date now is a cutesy girly girl. She giggles, she likes princess stuff, she's also very nice and caring, certain people on Era would have her head for it because she doesn't come off as a strong role model for others to model after.

Asking for these things to be removed from existence is not right, and going to the 'someone made a damsel in distress they must be sexist!' line, well I don't agree with that at all. It's simply an angle, a shallow one that works for a game that doesn't focus on plot. Most people recall a Mario game as a simple innocent time, not that time it corrupted their perspective on women and how all women are weak.

Not every game is political, Geometry Wars is not political. There are plenty of valid reasons for people to air their frustrations, when you play Animal Crossing and can't select people of certain colors, that's something someone needs to be taken to task on. I don't think everything needs to be looked at in this lens though, a lot of times its just someone making something for kids.