What exactly does the walk from checkpoint to bossfight add to the design of the Soulsborne games?

[Melchiah]

Depends on the route.
Usually I don't mind, but the long way to Ornstein&Smough really got on my nerves.

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Agreed. Mostly they didn't bother me, but I found the routes to Martyr Logarius and Shadow of Yharnam somewhat annoying, as there was a higher chance of getting hit along the way, and IIRC there weren't Blood Vials to be found before Logarius, unlike say Mergo's Wet Nurse.

 

[shem]

Usually I looked at it as a time to decompress and think about what I needed to change the next time around.

There are cases where this run can be obnoxiously long, but I feel like the average "respawn run" time has been decreasing and has hit a low point in sekiro.

 

[Garou]

It's a waste of the players time and one reason why those games will never appeal to the broad mainstream.

 

[Dussck]

It's a good question. The obious answer would be punishment. But they almost completely removed it for Sekir, so I guess From is not so sure about it either.

 

[RDreamer]

It's largely the reason I don't play these games. A few godawful design decisions ruin them.

 

[Rogue Agent]

I can only speak for Dark Souls 1 and say that I never had a problem with this. Discovering a shortcut to lessen the time between a bonfire and a boss felt so rewarding. It also was a nice choice between defeating the enemies along the way or just avoiding them as a risk to make the trip faster.

 

[Rixan]

Its additional punishment for death, some run backs are worse than others, in reality many times you can simply run past enemies to get back to the boss.

Sekiro improved upon this by reducing the run back distances in many cases (and removing them entirely in some). Further, in Sekiro even when they had run backs they would often have alternate grapple paths that would allow you to skip past the majority of the trash on your way to try again.

I think FROM should keep them, but continue to allow creative (or at least non-creative hold down the run button) ways to blow past most of the trash.

 

[Duffking]

This works better in some instances than others.

The worst case of it is the run to Martyr Logarius in BB where you just have to wait for a lift to go up and down, run across a big room, up a ladder, run across a roof, then across a long bit of roof, across a tower, across another long bit of roof, then up a long stair case just to try again. There's not even anything in your way. Just wasting my time.

Later souls games are generally more selective about where you do this tbh, it only really happens in DS1 and BB.

 

[Vitet]

I don't get the arguments "it's for you to learn to fight, to get better, to add tension, etc."
I tried Dark Souls on Switch as in PC I can't game anymore and thought on portable I could finally get into this series as they are praised globally.
I'm sorry but this in OP is the reason I just left the game. Some bosses are just absurd and adds new mechanics that are not told to you at all by the game. It took sometimes three or four deaths till I finally get just what the hell was happening at that fight, and the tedious walk to the bosses everytime just killed my playtime badly. I don't have time for this.

 

[Deleted member 29280]

I've played every single Souls game including Bloodborne and Sekiro and I never thought of this as bad/flawed design in the common occurrence that the bonfire isn't right next to the boss. I think its a good thing in a lot of cases because it gives you a time to cool down and think, instead of bashing your head against the wall restarting the fight over and over. Also the bonfires are usually placed in areas where you can easily travel to several different directions instead of having to backtrack from being at a dead end of a boss that's too tough for you at the moment.

 

[Deleted member 8852]

It's a waste of the players time and one reason why those games will never appeal to the broad mainstream.

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Souls games sell in the millions, they are already mainstream. Reducing retry time on bosses is not going to make it sell blockbuster FIFA/CoD numbers all of a sudden.

Not all corpse runs are created equally though, I'll give you that.

 

[Bakercat]

To be able to make it to the boss with enough estus flask to beat it.

 

[Melchiah]

This works better in some instances than others.

The worst case of it is the run to Martyr Logarius in BB where you just have to wait for a lift to go up and down, run across a big room, up a ladder, run across a roof, then across a long bit of roof, across a tower, across another long bit of roof, then up a long stair case just to try again. There's not even anything in your way. Just wasting my time.

Later souls games are generally more selective about where you do this tbh, it only really happens in DS1 and BB.

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That route is a bit annoying, mostly due to the enemies shooting at you while you're going up the ladder, but you can send the lift back to the start, so you don't have to wait for it the next time. The same goes for all the lifts in the game.

 

[Deleted member 29280]

Another poster talked about its so you have time to be invaded before you get to the boss. That's the most likely answer because the games have always been designed with both singleplayer, co-op, and PVP in mind silmultaneously. Having the bonfires always right next to the bosses would ruin the dynamic of online play. Want to summon phantoms for help? Well you have to deal with likely being invaded. Invading would be pointless after you reached a bonfire thats directly next to a boss, just suummon a phantom and then enter the boss fog with the other player before you can be invaded or the invader can run to the end of the map to get to you.

 

[LiK]

Punishment and fear of dying to bosses.

 

[Yossarian]

Tightens the sphincter.

It's a waste of the players time and one reason why those games will never appeal to the broad mainstream.

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Explain the entire mobile games industry then.

 

[Aeron]

Punishment and fear of dying to bosses.

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That already exists and is the point of bosses in the first place.
The trip back is extra.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

you're basically asking why games punish the player for failure and, wouldn't you know it, it's the same reason they reward the player for success

 

[LiK]

That already exists and is the point of bosses in the first place.
The trip back is extra.

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the later games have CPs right next to the bosses so it's not quite as punishing, imo

 

[AtomicShroom]

Punishment. It's intended to make you rethink your strategy, change up equipment, etc, as opposed to just being able to spam a boss until you get lucky and win. It increases the feeling of satisfaction once you finally defeat it.

 

[Deleted member 984]

Encouragement for you to get better and not have to fight bosses multiple times.

 

[Kopite]

Next to no point.

Maria and Orphan were the best fights partly because of this reason

 

[ckareset]

Nothing. Which is why they moved away from it slowly.

 

[LossAversion]

Well it does add a degree of difficulty. If you waste too many healing supplies on the way to the boss fight, the boss fight will be more difficult. You could look at it as a punishment for failing to defeat the boss but for me it's more like downtime. Just gives me a few minutes to breathe before taking on the boss again. Plus, once you learn the attack patterns of the enemies on the way to the boss, you can defeat or bypass them pretty efficiently. I don't know if I would argue that this design choice makes these games any better but I never thought it was a problem either. It definitely feels good when you finally defeat the boss and unlock a new checkpoint in the boss arena though.

 

[Moves]

It adds value and excitement to finding shortcuts that's for sure.

 

[Deleted member 36749]

Speaking from the perspective of someone whose pretty good at the games and has ran through them all multiple times and even made strategies for other players on them....

Its just bad game design imo, and because people are such fans of Froms work youre not supposed to have an opinion the masses may not ride with, or on.


Good games, but they definitely have some cons about them.

 

[StarPhlox]

Nothing. Glad Sekiro got rid of this shit.

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Bingo.

 

[Duffking]

That route is a bit annoying, mostly due to the enemies shooting at you while you're going up the ladder, but you can send the lift back to the start, so you don't have to wait for it the next time. The same goes for all the lifts in the game.

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Yeah you've still got to wait for it to carry you up though. And also sometimes I'd forget to send the bugger back down as well.

 

[Torpedo Vegas]

It encourages you to play something else. I played so much other stuff because of this.

 

[Blade Wolf]

Tension and risk, it makes dying even more scary. I love it.

 

[Complicated]

It was only valid design for the first couple games before people figured out you can run past almost anything if you know where you're going. It's just bad tedious design for the other several games.

 

[MrKlaw]

I think its there to test your patience. I mean that in a good way. Eg if you start to get frustrated with a boss and you start to rush your return journey and get killed by grunts along the way.

 

[mbpm]

Its a walk of shame.

Shame. Shame.

 

[EchoChamber]

In soulserikobornring games you need to get gud I guess.

 

[Shoshi]

Sekiro: Since Great Ape and Demon of Hatred has its checkpoints right at the boss arena, you get to try the bosses many times and end up much much more frustrated than if you would have had a contemplative walk towards the boss arena. So Sekiro teached me I probably need that distance

 

[hey it's that dog]

Prince of Persia 2008 was perfect for this. It stopped the pretense there is anything good about replaying an entire section just to reach back the point where you failed.

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Well in PoP 2008, that was especially true because it was hyper-repetitive and not very enjoyable to play even the first time through an area.

Still, I agree that there's little to be gained from overly distant checkpoints from bosses. People have all kinds of Soulsy rationalizations for it, but the fact is it's just a matter of running, without much risk, through space, for no reason other than to take up your time.

 

[Hybris]

Honestly I think this is an unfortunate side-effect of the way they do their checkpointing in general. It works well for general exploration, but not for bosses. I think they have realized this in that they have been adding bonfires/checkpoints close to boss doors in their more recent releases.

 

[Deleted member 984]

It was only valid design for the first couple games before people figured out you can run past almost anything if you know where you're going. It's just bad tedious design for the other several games.

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It took people a couple of games to figure out they can just run to the boss?!

Nah people have been doing that since DeS.

 

[Tahnit]

Time to reflect on your mistakes and failures.

 

[Netherscourge]

I personally dislike it and would prefer a "save anywhere" option.

Having to run back to each boss to fight it again is boring and kills my desire to complete it, when I just want to get right back at fighting the boss again.

It's an artificial time sink. Does not enhance gameplay.

 

[hey it's that dog]

Time to reflect on your mistakes and failures.

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If I want to do that, I can do it voluntarily, any time. I heard the same thing being said about Bloodborne's awful load times. It was dumb then, too.

 

[Bradford]

The corpse runa serve to refocus you on core mechanics while also refreshing your resources. If you are dying in the corpse run, or dying to the boss, the corpse run can serve as practice and a patience-builder. The souls games are about Fundamentals, and each boss is a test at the end of the level which serves as its curriculum. If you fail the test, you are being sent back to study more.

 

[hey it's that dog]

The corpse runa serve to refocus you on core mechanics while also refreshing your resources. If you are dying in the corpse run, or dying to the boss, the corpse run can serve as practice and a patience-builder. The souls games are about Fundamentals, and each boss is a test at the end of the level which serves as its curriculum. If you fail the test, you are being sent back to study more.

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But I don't need to practice patience or the boss run, I need to practice the boss.

I don't have an objection to the general corpse run mechanic, but when you're focused on beating the boss, it's just unnecessary. 99% of the time you're going to have zero trouble avoiding all the enemies and then grabbing your bloodstain before the boss can kill you. It doesn't benefit anyone to draw the process out.

 

[Bradford]

But I don't need to practice patience or the boss run, I need to practice the boss.

I don't have an objection to the general corpse run mechanic, but when you're focused on beating the boss, it's just unnecessary. 99% of the time you're going to have zero trouble avoiding all the enemies and then grabbing your bloodstain before the boss can kill you. It doesn't benefit anyone to draw the process out.

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The point is that the skills you use to beat the regular enemies are going to be the same skills you use to beat the bosses: patience and a calm approach. The Corpse Run is there to get you to refocus around the fundamentals, because fundamentals are all you need. Don't try to avoid the enemies, just play safe and kill them. That's why they are there.

Again, the corpse runs also refresh your resources. If you kill the enemies on the way you'll get drops and souls, which contribute to the in-game economy.

 

[Deleted member 41520]

It speaks volumes that Sekiro rid itself of this particular encounter design feature.

After 10 years making this shit they clearly realised that creating long retry loops just leads to players running past every enemy, which is not interesting gameplay, doesn't necessitate "gitting gud" and doesn't provide "memorable experiences".

So they got rid of it. Everyone here defending the design approach is in disagreement with From Software, who have moved away from it.

What do you say to that Zhukov ? I take it you haven't played Sekiro?

 

[Sanctuary]

Didn't really start to bother me until Dark Souls 2. In Demon's Souls, it really did make you play a lot more cautious if you had previously died, and it was a rush to get back to your body, or to finally reach a boss and defeat them after your previous death run. Dark Souls was roughly the same for a while, then got easier in the second half, but with the way the map was designed, it was kind of needed.

Dark Souls 2 on the other hand just went overboard with not only the ambushes, but the groups of enemies you were supposed to either fight, or run past each time. I hear it got even worse with SotFS.

It speaks volumes that Sekiro rid itself of this particular encounter design feature.

After 10 years making this shit they clearly realised that creating long retry loops just leads to players running past every enemy, which is not interesting gameplay, doesn't necessitate "gitting gud" and doesn't provide "memorable experiences".

So they got rid of it. Everyone here defending the design approach is in disagreement with From Software, who have moved away from it.

What do you say to that Zhukov ? I take it you haven't played Sekiro?

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A single game, that had many differences in general from their previous games proves that they completely moved away from that design now? OK. I guess we'll know for sure when Elden Ring has a surplus of warp point as well as vertical zip lines.

The funny thing about Sekiro is that it actually made the repeated killing of trash even worse in some instances, when you consider the bosses that were surrounded by them.

 

[jviggy43]

I figured that might hit a nerve. To be fair, not all Soulsborne fans are like it so it's an unfair generalisation on my part, but you can't tell me that many of those that try to explain away criticism don't often frame it around that obnoxious, and ironically (given your reply) childish meme.

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explain to me what the irony is with my reply

 

[hey it's that dog]

The point is that the skills you use to beat the regular enemies are going to be the same skills you use to beat the bosses: patience and a calm approach. The Corpse Run is there to get you to refocus around the fundamentals, because fundamentals are all you need. Don't try to avoid the enemies, just play safe and kill them. That's why they are there.

Again, the corpse runs also refresh your resources. If you kill the enemies on the way you'll get drops and souls, which contribute to the in-game economy.

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I understand all of this. I really like these games and I am good at them. I don't need forced fundamental reinforcement when I'm working on a boss. These games are not that complicated.

I guess it might help if I clarified that I didn't personally have any issue with boss runs in DS3 or Sekiro, which are the souls-ish games I've played in the last couple years. And to my recollection there are only a couple of spots I can remember in other souls games where I was really fucking annoyed by a boss run. I still object to boss runs on principle because my time is at a premium and because I genuinely don't think they add anything of value for the player. As teaching tools, they add no value over the rest of the game.

 

[Ferrs]

It speaks volumes that Sekiro rid itself of this particular encounter design feature.

After 10 years making this shit they clearly realised that creating long retry loops just leads to players running past every enemy, which is not interesting gameplay, doesn't necessitate "gitting gud" and doesn't provide "memorable experiences".

So they got rid of it. Everyone here defending the design approach is in disagreement with From Software, who have moved away from it.

What do you say to that Zhukov ? I take it you haven't played Sekiro?

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Sekiro is a single player game. Part of the reason of these long paths is that From wants to push multiplayer, and being human happens more often when you go to the boss (for coop or just more health), so it's also where you may be invaded the most.

All of this is redundant in Sekiro as a SP game. Mind you I neither defend or attack these long walks to bosses, I don't give a crap either way, but the reason is more often than not the multiplayer (even though Souls have SP modes, it's clearly intended as a multiplayer game).

 

[Bradford]

I understand all of this. I really like these games and I am good at them. I don't need forced fundamental reinforcement when I'm working on a boss. These games are not that complicated.

I guess it might help if I clarified that I didn't personally have any issue with boss runs in DS3 or Sekiro, which are the souls-ish games I've played in the last couple years. And to my recollection there are only a couple of spots I can remember in other souls games where I was really fucking annoyed by a boss run. I still object to boss runs on principle because my time is at a premium and because I genuinely don't think they add anything of value for the player. As teaching tools, they add no value over the rest of the game.

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I think even skilled players benefit from them, if only because I know I did from time to time. They can certainly be a timesink, but I've always felt they are time well spent. But I've also platted all the games, so I generally am enjoying the time spent regardless.