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What is more important: Framerate or Frametimes?

  • Framerate

    Votes: 76 40.6%
  • Frametimes

    Votes: 111 59.4%

  • Total voters
    187

Azai

Member
Jun 10, 2020
3,958
Ever since I started gaming on PC the single most annoying thing I faced was stuttering. At the time I didnt really know much about the causes or how to fix it but over the years I learned more and more about it and how to avoid it. But often its the games fault and can't be fixed by yourself.

The thing is that even if its a minor stutter that occurs maybe once in 10 minutes I often get really triggered to the point that I just want to fix it.
Often I fear that theres something wrong with the hardware and sometimes its just the fear of missing out because it runs better for others. (eg I watch performance benchmarks of the game with similar hardware)

It really was, and to some extend still is, lessen my enjoyment of some games. For example I owned Escape from Tarkov for 2 years before the stuttering was managable.

But when I visit my friends and play on their rigs they experience the same stutter. However they dont seem to notice or care about it unless its a huge one.
I take smooth frametimes over a higher framerate any time.

Which leads me to the question if I am in the minority with favoring staple/smooth frametimes over higher framerates?


I know both dont exclude themselves, but often just capping the framerate to a limit that your hardware can always achieve leads to perfectly smooth frametimes. Especially with RTSS.
Best measuring method for this is the frametime graph on its overlay:

R2qEpGr.png


When capping it you have a perfectly flat line. A flat line and thus staple frametimes results in the game having almost no jiddering (mostly caused by little spikes) when panning the camera or when moving.
The spike on this graph marks a stutter. Basically this means that the frame needs too long to be rendered resulting in a stutter. (just for those who dont know)


Especially in fast shooters and shooters in general the frametimes are important to me since there is nothing more annoying than shooting at an enemy while a stutter occurs.
 
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vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
54,280
Framerate first, then once that's stable, frametime. Though, with tech like vrr and gsync framerate is less important than frametime to some degree.
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,928
Both matter, but framerate.

G-Sync helps out a lot with both too
 

Neuroxia

Member
Mar 31, 2019
953
I'd rather have stable frametime with lower framerate than high framerate with bad frametime/frame pacing.

Frametime spikes make everything bad, so even if you have 60/120 fps it will feel shitty.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,772
Alabama
At low framerate, perfect frametimes still look juddery... At high framerate, bad frametimes pass so quickly as to be almost unnoticeable... It's that middle area where the framerate is good enough but frametimes are noticeable that frametimes really matter. So I'm going with framerate.
 

Deleted member 13560

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,087
Frame times are way more important for me. I can not stand when a game is hitching, jittery, or feels inconsistent. I don't care how high the framerate is.
 
Jan 10, 2019
125
Ofc frame times matter much more. Thats why VRR isn't the solution for frame drops.
30 fps in Control and 30 fps in Death Stranding or Spider-Man is a whole different thing because of frame times.
 

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,385
UK
Anyone who says Framerate over Frametime is objectively incorrect and I hope that the PCMR gods will take mercy on their souls.

VRR has been a boon for Frametimes though because it's essentially turned that into a non-issue (outside of stuttering related to larger technical issues of course) and has allowed me to focus on just setting the game to look as good as I can get it without much worry.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,097
I get driven bonkers by stutters. I would rather play at 40 fps consistently than 80 with stutters, but in my experience if your game is stuttering 75% of the time it will stutter at any framerate, with any tool to cap, and with any setting. I have had such little success fixing stutters when they occur.
 

FarZa17

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,566
It's frame time that matters to me. I have mostly no problem playing games with low FPS. Higher is always nice of course, but if it suffers frametime pacing, where there is noticeable judder and big gap of the frame, then it is a problem to me, regardless of any framerate.
 

Tora

The Enlightened Wise Ones
Member
Jun 17, 2018
8,639
Perfectly paced 30fps feels fantastic. Always prefer 60fps but 30 can feel good
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,614
Framepacing for me.

30fps perfectly framepaced is perfectly good to me. Badly paced 60fps is a disaster.
 
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Azai

Azai

Member
Jun 10, 2020
3,958
I get driven bonkers by stutters. I would rather play at 40 fps consistently than 80 with stutters, but in my experience if your game is stuttering 75% of the time it will stutter at any framerate, with any tool to cap, and with any setting. I have had such little success fixing stutters when they occur.

yes, most of the time its the games fault and you cant really do much. Maybe reducing it.
But what you can influence is how smooth it feels by eliminating small spikes/uneven frametimes. They make the game feel jittery.


Its known that often those spikes are caused by the CPU hitting the limit. Especially in indie games. So putting more stress on the GPU helps.
But what I noticed by testing is that when you put as much load as you can on the GPU (for me to a point where my framerate is in the 20s) alot of stutter goes away (measured by the frametime graph). You cant play like that but it shows that if you put the least stress on the CPU it gets better in most games.
An example would be Ghost Recon Breakpoint. When I open the Weapon Wheel there is a spike (nothing bad as its just loading the wheel and you dont notice it in game, only on the frametime graph).
At the point where I put so much stress on the GPU by going 4K, this stutter basically dissappeared, I noticed this behaviour in alot of games.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,717
they are just different ways to measure the same thing, but frametimes is a better way to do it.

framerate = how many frames are drawn per second (ignores the consistency of time each frame is drawn, so you can get "perfect" 60 fps even if framepacing is constantly jumping between 16 ms and 64 ms for example)

frametime = measures how long each frame takes to render. It's inherently more of a precise measurement because it can immediately reveal frame pacing problems.

I get driven bonkers by stutters. I would rather play at 40 fps consistently than 80 with stutters, but in my experience if your game is stuttering 75% of the time it will stutter at any framerate, with any tool to cap, and with any setting. I have had such little success fixing stutters when they occur.

engine related stutters like asset streaming in open world games is basically unfixable without developer intervention as its usually caused by IO stalls, and even if you have the worlds fastest PC with the worlds fastest SSD, games tend to be designed around console IO, so all that speed and bandwith is just left unused.
 
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Azai

Azai

Member
Jun 10, 2020
3,958
they are just different ways to measure the same thing, but frametimes is a better way to do it.

framerate = how many frames are drawn per second (ignores the consistency of time each frame is drawn, so you can get "perfect" 60 fps even if framepacing is constantly jumping between 16 ms and 64 ms for example)

frametime = measures how long each frame takes to render. It's inherently more of a precise measurement because it can immediately reveal frame pacing problems.



engine related stutters like asset streaming in open world games is basically unfixable without developer intervention as its usually caused by IO stalls, and even if you have the worlds fastest PC with the worlds fastest SSD, games tend to be designed around console IO, so all that speed and bandwith is just left unused.

Basically yes. But like you said, you can have a high framerate but inconsistent frametimes.

Some people prefer to get the most frames rendered in 1 second and other prefer to have all of those frames being rendered with the same time.
Like I said, they dont exclude themselves but lowering the framerate often results in better framepacing and thus a smoother experience.
Most of the time because the CPU isnt stressed as much.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,317
Gotta be 100% honest, I had no idea frametimes was a thing before this thread so I guess I'm picking framerate...?
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
Learning about how getting a good, consistent 30fps on PC without RTSS made me appreciate framtimes in a way I hadn't before.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,916
They are the exact same thing. It's like asking wether you prefer km/h or minutes/1km for measuring speed.
Frametime is more accurate, since FPS is inherently an average number, without context of how evenly each frame was paced in that time window.
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,210
South East Asia
Frametimes. While I appreciate high frame rates, I care more about consistency. I have no problems playing at 30/60 as long as it's locked solid.
 

Richter1887

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,146
Lower frame rate with no stutter is the way to go.

I can adjust to low frame rate but stutter will always be a pain.
 

JCal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,336
Los Alfheim
As a longtime sufferer of migraines, I can't handle excessive judder, excessive stutters, or any other visual oddity of that type. Stuff like that can trigger me, or at the very least can fool me into thinking something's up, which gets me super anxious. I just stop playing at that point

I'd rather deal with a smooth 20fps (N64 style!).
 
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Azai

Azai

Member
Jun 10, 2020
3,958
They are the exact same thing. It's like asking wether you prefer km/h or minutes/1km for measuring speed.
Frametime is more accurate, since FPS is inherently an average number, without context of how evenly each frame was paced in that time window.
The whole context of the thread was that you can have better frametimes by capping the framerate and that smooth frametimes and higher framerate both have advantages.
You can have a high framerate in game and still bad frametimes. you can have lower framerate and better frametimes or still bad frametimes.
A higher framerate gives you less input lag, Better more consistent frametimes make the game smoother.
Viewed objectively and in the context of which of the different advantages both offer you prefer they are different.

But yes, in the context of what they actually mean they measure the same thing.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
Without a minimum FPS or stutter frequency specified, I guess I'll choose framerate. If a framerate is low enough, I won't care how consistent it is.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,617
Thor: The Dark World.

It depends on where I'm playing the game. My computer monitor supports VRR (G-sync), so framerate is more important, as minor frametime fluctuations aren't noticeable. My TV, on the other hand, does not support VRR, so a stable 30/60 is preferred, meaning frametime would be more important.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,994
Frame-time spikes are definitely a problem, but with a variable refresh rate (VRR/G-Sync) display variable frame-times are not a problem any more.
This frame-time graph results in a perfectly smooth output on the display:
smooth-frametime-grapvlkmc.png


While VRR can do absolutely nothing for this:
spiky-frametime-graphcaje1.png


That is why I prioritize CPU performance.
I would rather have a slower GPU paired with the fastest CPU I can get, than a slower CPU paired with the fastest GPU.

But I still won't accept anything consistently below 60 FPS. Ideally, things would stay above 80–90 FPS even with VRR.

When capping it you have a perfectly flat line. A flat line and thus staple frametimes results in the game having almost no jiddering (mostly caused by little spikes) when panning the camera or when moving.
The spike on this graph marks a stutter. Basically this means that the frame needs too long to be rendered resulting in a stutter. (just for those who dont know)
It should be noted that this is not always the case.
A tool like RTSS is not monitoring frame presentation - so a smooth frame-time graph may not be indicative of a smooth output on the display.

This is especially noticeable if you're using a fixed-refresh display.
Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to get browser-based playback to work without introducing some stutter of its own, in my experience, but I tried to show it in this video:


  • With RTSS limiting the frame rate to 60 FPS, there is a perfectly flat frame-time graph; but there is stuttering on the display.
  • With V-Sync handling the frame limiting, there are constant (but slight) variations in frame-time; however the video is perfectly smooth.
That is because frame presentation is more important than frame-times - particularly on a fixed-refresh display.


Dishonored 2, prior to the final patch, could show perfect frame-times but would have constant microstutter - even on a VRR display.
I've not revisited it recently, but if I recall correctly, it may still have microstutter if you use a tool like RTSS to limit the frame rate rather than that game's own limiter; despite the frame-time graph looking perfect.
 

inpHilltr8r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,241
took me a moment, but question is really

average frame rate
vs
distribution of frame times

since frame rate = 1 / frame time
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,240
Those stutters are why I stopped playing games on PC. They make it feel like there's something wrong with your hardware or like you're playing a port/emulation rather than the real game.
 
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Azai

Azai

Member
Jun 10, 2020
3,958
That is why I prioritize CPU performance.
I would rather have a slower GPU paired with the fastest CPU I can get, than a slower CPU paired with the fastest GPU.

Same here. The more I tested all of this the more I realized that a good CPU is more important than simply having a high end GPU.

A tool like RTSS is not monitoring frame presentation - so a smooth frame-time graph may not be indicative of a smooth output on the display.

I play on a G-Sync monitor so I dont have trhis issue often. However I also tried game while I disabled G-Sync and some games were noticeably more jittery even though the frametimes were ok.
Especially when I played BF4 back then with my PC connected to my TV.
If your framerate id higher tham the refresh rate of your monitor you will also notice it more.