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ScOULaris

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,831
As a lifelong SNK fan, it makes me happy to see the company somewhat thriving these days after nearly going under completely several times in the past. Their modern reboots of popular fighting games series (e.g. King of Fighters and Samurai Shodown) have done well commercially and have been well-received by the fighting game community, and they seem to have plenty of other promising projects lined up for the future like a new Metal Slug. There was also the recent news that they had been acquired by the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, which is... interesting. At least it shows that there is value in the company as its currently stands.

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It was after reading through Bitmap Books' excellent NEOGEO: A Visual History that I decided to make this thread.

But I can't help but feel a bit sad or at least bittersweet about the form that SNK has taken today compared to the company's presence and output in the 90's. SNK was an absolute powerhouse in the 90's arcade market, especially in the company's native Japan. There was a time when you could find multiple Neo-Geo Land amusement centers throughout Japan, and the Neo-Geo had several Japanese publications dedicated to it for a while. The Neo-Geo platform (both the home console and MVS arcade cabinets) had long-lasting appeal that stretched beyond the decade and into the early 2000's even as the company's financial struggles threatened its existence, and there was such a prestige to the Neo-Geo brand and SNK at that time. There's a reason why Neo-Geo games continue to appeal to gamers whenever they're ported or emulated for modern consoles every single generation: they are timeless. In the 90's, SNK and Neo-Geo were associated with power and artistry. Countless iconic characters spawned from SNK's various series from the 90's, and they created dozens of all-time greats within their respective genres.

neo_geo_aes_console.jpg

The Neo-Geo home console (AES) was a stunning technical achievement in the early 90's that was marketed as a premium product.

And what set Neo-Geo games apart from the competition for so long was the craft on display from a presentational standpoint. Neo-Geo GIFs, character sprites, and animated backgrounds continue to circulate online and delight the eyes to this day, and that was SNK's calling card. Nobody did pixel art like them back then, and only prime 90's Capcom ever stood toe-to-toe with them in that regard.

SNK's attention to detail in cultivating an expensive, classy brand association wasn't limited to their spritework and animation, however. Everything that they put out throughout the 90's featured this focus on polished, artistic presentation. From the design of their hardware itself to the promotional artwork, box art for AES console game releases, CD soundtracks, etc. In the 90's, SNK and their Neo-Geo brand were known for consistent quality and cutting edge presentation values not only in their software but also permeating the various physical products that came along with it.

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SNK artist Shinkiro produced countless classy, unmistakable pieces of artwork for Neo-Geo games in the 90's.

But now... that's not really the case. After sending their trademark pixel art out in style with KOF XIII, the company has since pivoted entirely to polygonal graphics for all of their games. The results have been, at least in my opinion, extremely underwhelming. I'm not saying that presentation is everything, because it isn't. Their newer games like KOF XIV and SamSho play rather well and feel like an SNK game from that standpoint, but they look and sound like budget titles from a mid-size developer. And maybe that's because that's what they essentially are now in 2020, but I can't help but feel a sense of loss for what SNK used to stand for as a brand and image in the 90's.

sEaePLy.jpg

Modern SNK games tend to be visually uneven by modern standards, lending them a low-budget feel.


_________________________________

Does anyone else feel this way, or do you think that SNK is as good as ever and only getting better as we move into the new console generation?

ScOULaris, signing off.

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TubaZef

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,570
Brazil
SNK is a shadow of what it once was, It's crazy to think about how many games they used to release every year in the 90s. We had one new KOF game every year from 1994 to 2003!

I don't think they can never get back to that, but the company is not in a bad spot now. Samurai Shodown looks pretty good IMO, I disagree with the "low-budget feel". Now let's see how they handle KOF XV. Maybe they should start partnering up with more studios, maybe give some of their more forgotten IPs to some smaller indie devs. Anyway, SNK is at least much better now than how they were 10 years ago.
 

Theswweet

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,464
California
They aren't even comparable. For one, I think we need a new Metal Slug at a minimum - and I don't think I'll ever really be able to accept the inevitable departure from pixel art, there.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
They were starting to climb back but the whole Saudi Prince MBS buying half their shares mess just made me disappointed and sad that they won't go back to the company I loved.
 

xir

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,664
Los Angeles, CA
better than erotic violence
as a weird aside: i still remember seeing Metal Slug 1 for the first time, maybe the year it came out, maybe one year later, and thinking it was already a "retro game" which now seems so odd to me.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,818
Brazil
shadow of what it once was is an understatement because a shadow is too close to the thing casting it.
They did awesome games, now they sell naked JPGs in a metal slug phone game.

Samurai Shodown is a step in the right direction, they they gave SO MANY steps in the wrong one (SNK Heroines? REALLY ?????) that it will take a long time for them to even come close to the shadow that they once were =P

And yeah, the Saudi Prince stuff don't help
 

Phoenixazure

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,453
I think their SNK Playmore era was slept on with them releasing great games like KOFXI, Neo Geo Battle Colluseum, and the UM games.
 

Seafoam Gaming

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,707
I never really saw them as a prestigious company. To me they always just felt like the company that lost to Capcom.

funnily enough, in 2012 when the Wii got flooded by Neogeo games (most of them being 1v1 fighters), I got pissed and claimed on forums they were ripping off capcom with Street Fighter II and their games were way better than SNK's.

Then in 2017 the anger came back for me when the switch's retro catalogue was nothing but NG games and I finally caved and bought a couple to try out. I ended up liking Garou more than SFIII, Real Bout 2 more than the Alpha games sans 2, and Fatal Fury 1 more than SFII. I ended up digging the Sam Shodown collection a bunch and pretty much own 50 NG games on my switch now, and I'm LOVING their NGPC lineup. The only fighting games on the NG I actually hate and consider Street Fighter ripoffs, are the first two art of fightings, all the world heroes, and some third party titles like Fighter's History Dynamite. SNK really is a good case of "play before you judge on looks" and I argue the same goes for newer games since I love SS2019 and KOF XIII/XIV are good too (even though 2003 is my favorite KOF). I think they have a really darn good library and I'm glad they helped make SNK40, which is the best way to get into the company
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
They only began their brand restoration in 2016 making new investments, even foreign ones. I think it will take time to rebuild. KOF14 though, there was nothing that could have been fixed, by the time the new president came in that game was already late in development. I remember him saying that had he been there earlier he would have tried to steer it in a better direction even moving teams to UE4. But it is why currently all games are on UE4 and multiplatform.

In the meantime I can handle some of the unevenness going on right now.
 

Het_Nkik

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,421
It's funny because their 90s games were better but I barely ever heard about them in the 90s. I didn't start getting into their games until the early 2000s. People talk about them more now but they have less games and their 3D games are... Anyway.
 
OP
OP
ScOULaris

ScOULaris

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,831
It's funny because their 90s games were better but I barely ever heard about them in the 90s. I didn't start getting into their games until the early 2000s. People talk about them more now but they have less games and their 3D games are... Anyway.
Hm. I can understand the sentiment that they've only garnered more fondness over time as their classic games live on through emulation on modern platforms, but at least where I grew up you were guaranteed to see an MVS cabinet at every arcade and most movie theaters, bars, and pizza shops during the early-to-mid 90's.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,322
like with any legacy publisher, different market different world and different time
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
Snk today is nothing like they were in the 90s, but games aren't either. They seem to be trying to find their way. I wish they did Real bout/Fatal Fury or AoF instead of KoF, but i guess they need to solidify their position and expand on that. I think that they could try to do some arcade like games in 2D, not fighters that require a lot of animation, but other genres. Just like many indies do, so they have something between bigger releases.
I think Samurai is a step in the good direction, modern but still faithful to the originals, if a bit bland visually. I also think KoFXIV looked good and crisp, especially after patched. Not astonishing, but decent enough.

They should re-release Samurai spirits rpg for modern consoles
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,434
Like Street Fighter 3 Third Strike is my favorite fighting game ever but this is legit right next to it (and the same year too)





Look at this shit, only reason I don't love this even more is I was deployed in 1999 an there are no arcade in the gulf.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
90s SNK was awesome, my MVS-X should get here tomorrow!

I feel like they are tied to the pixel art look though, I don't care for their newer 3D graphics either.
 

J75

Member
Sep 29, 2018
6,676
SNK in the 90s was nothing short of legendary. From 1991 to like 1999 they were on another level. When it comes to their more recent works, I personally loved KOF XIII, but I wasn't very keen on XIV. Haven't checked the new Samurai Showdown cause I was never a big fan of that franchise, but it looks decent. Too bad I'm never gonna play any of their new games moving forward, fuck that prince.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,161
SNK is a company than from its entire existence mostly knew how to make arcade games, is impossible to compare the golden years with today because back the arcade market had a considerable share of the videogame industry, and SNK had to pull a big effort to make their games attractive to the people who went to game centers. Today they are basking mostly on people who are hardcore fans of fighting games and people who were huge fans on those golden years.

With that in mind, today's SNK is doing a good job with their flagship gamesn albeit KOF XIV was rough around the eyes the final product was decent enough considering that the company went into a mini hiatus after KOF XIII and Samurai Shodown is a very impressive AA that is remniscent to older games although in different scales. Their biggest weakness is their lackluster netcode implementation but I feel that they have heard enough feedback from fans that could make KOF XV a good game in that regard.

Now the thing that I really have to give to SNK is that their marketing an licenses department did a terrific job on making their games and characters return to the spotlight, the crossocers with Tekken and Smash really made people appreciate how cool and iconic are the characters from the company, which is amazing considering that around the Playmore days people didnt care that much for the IP.

Also it will never not be impressive than SNK exists today considering that they went bankrupt
 

Het_Nkik

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,421
Hm. I can understand the sentiment that they've only garnered more fondness over time as their classic games live on through emulation on modern platforms, but at least where I grew up you were guaranteed to see an MVS cabinet at every arcade and most movie theaters, bars, and pizza shops during the early-to-mid 90's.
Yeah, probably depends on where you frequented/lived. I can clearly remember one Neo Geo cabinet at a movie theater I used to go to and it had Bust A Move and I think a Metal Slug. But never saw anyone playing it. Laundromat had Mortal Kombat. Lots of places had Capcom fighters -- I remember both Children of the Atom and Marvel Super Heroes being big. Legit never saw an SNK fighter in an arcade until SNK vs Capcom: SVC Chaos of all games, and that cab was completely ignored.

Only reason I started getting into SNK's games was because a bunch of them getting ported to Dreamcast.

Oh, and I used to play a bunch of Guerrilla War and P.O.W. on NES but I didn't really pay attention to who made games back then because I was like 5.
 

Taco_Human

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,240
MA
I learned about them in 2001 when a boys and girls club I used to go to had. metal Slug 2 cabinet. All my quarters went to replaying it and I had friend back in 5th grade burn me a cd with a weird blue emulator and all the metal slug roms.

Never had money for a neo geo until this year. I'm so thankful for the neo sd pro.

New snk....ill always be a fan but it's definitely not the pixel art I fell in love with.
 

Deleted member 17210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,569
'90s SNK was something special. Today's SNK is like today's Atari: the name is around but not very relevant.

I do think SNK's decline began in the '90s, though. The Neo Geo never had a worthy hardware replacement and they kept focusing so much on fighting games compared to their more genre varied arcade output in the early '90s. The NGPC was great while it lasted.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,161
Another advantage that SNK has is that the rise of the internet and social media had let people from the markets where neo geo cabs where everywhere could connect with each other, making it easier to create a community that was mostly isolated local scenes from around the world.

You will rarely watch a populated KOF stream on Twitch but on other places like Facebook you can watch some streams with a decent amount of viewers
 

John Omaha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,872
After the phenomenal KoF13 they've been a husk of their former selves. SNK were never as big as Capcom yet could punch well above their weight in game design and aesthetics, but they haven't shown much of that over the past decade or so. XIV looked like mediocre 90s CG and didn't do anything special gameplay-wise, Samsho looks a bit better and seems to play OK, but that's about it.

I don't really buy the time and place or budget arguments - market circumstances may change, but the culture and uniqueness of a studio should remain. There are comparably-sized or smaller studios doing amazing things in the fighting game space. An SNK with the same level of focus they had in the 90s could have been pioneering 2D cel-shading alongside ArcSys. And lord knows what a tiny studio like French Bread could do if scaled up to the size of current SNK.

Having said that, I'm getting a good feel from the rumblings and dev talk about KoF XV, so that'll hopefully be a return to form of sorts.
 

FRS1987

Member
Oct 31, 2017
638
New Jersey
I remember back in high school hearing "king of fighters" and thinking it was some wrestling or sports game. My friend made me try Garou, Kof2000 and i was hooked. I do love classic SNK more than modern and i feel like modern SNK is in a better spot. I remember feeling like they were almost or always bankrupt in the early to mid 2000s and wondering if they'll ever come back the next year.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,125
But now... that's not really the case. After sending their trademark pixel art out in style with KOF XIII, the company has since pivoted entirely to polygonal graphics for all of their games. The results have been, at least in my opinion, extremely underwhelming. I'm not saying that presentation is everything, because it isn't. Their newer games like KOF XIV and SamSho play rather well and feel like an SNK game from that standpoint, but they look and sound like budget titles from a mid-size developer. And maybe that's because that's what they essentially are now in 2020, but I can't help but feel a sense of loss for what SNK used to stand for as a brand and image in the 90's.

I mean, wasn't the reason for this because of how expensive that pixel art was for KOF XIII that it sunk the company?
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,161
'90s SNK was something special. Today's SNK is like today's Atari: the name is around but not very relevant.

I disagree with SNK not being relevant or being like Atari at all, watching Terry in Smash shows that even Nintendo considers the brand to have some value to give an spot in a game that almost any game company in the world wishes to have. There are also mobile companies that had made very succesfull games with their IP, and even though I dont like the recent news of the saudian prince buying the majority share in the company, the fact that the company actually went on its way to buy it shows that he believed that the brand was worthy enough to work as an entry to the global industry.

Atari would love to have any of the things mentioned above, but their golden era was 40 years ago and their brand never grew up beyond being one of the first companies that made a videogame console. At least SNK managed to have decent enough products to have their name out in the market to not make people forget about them that quickly.
 

Waffle

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,849
I loved SNK in the 90's. Their games were flashy and the art was just amazing. I even bought the Neo Geo just to have KoF94 at home.

I enjoyed KoF13 but haven't really enjoyed much of their other works in the recent years. Personally, I haven't taken a liking to any of their new character designs and the transition to 3D did them no favors.
 

Vinegar Joe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,161
Those Bitmap books are brilliant. If you're reading this thread you should probably buy them if you haven't already, especially the Metal Slug one.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
SNK artist Shinkiro produced countless classy, unmistakable pieces of artwork for Neo-Geo games in the 90's
While I agree pixel art looks great and unparalleled, this piece of art just looks bad. Look at their chins, all deformed. What's up with that poses? Why it seems they have one leg bigger than the other?

Anyway, I think snk is in better state than any other company that "gone under" and them came back. Snk still make great arcade games, but they are arcade games, we can't expect them to reach mainstream even if they are the better on the world at it. They found a way to survive making the games they are good at even when the world didn't wanted them anymore. I respect and appreciate that. Better than nothing, I suppose.
 

Foffy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,400
Nowhere near close to their 96-99 god tier status. We're in an age where they're funded by blood money terrorists with the MiSK Foundation stuff, and before that the worst thing going for them was a reskinned Contra mobile game being marketed as a new Metal Slug mobile game.
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
Give me Neo Turf Masters over anything else SNK. It's still my favorite golf game (the pocket version was pretty ok). I still hear "ON THE GREEN!" occasionally in my head when playing real golf.

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Obi Wan Jabroni

alt account
Banned
Dec 14, 2020
1,678
Hm. I can understand the sentiment that they've only garnered more fondness over time as their classic games live on through emulation on modern platforms, but at least where I grew up you were guaranteed to see an MVS cabinet at every arcade and most movie theaters, bars, and pizza shops during the early-to-mid 90's.

Yep and their arcade cabinets and tech were incredibly innovative because of the ease with which you could switch new software in and out.
 

Obi Wan Jabroni

alt account
Banned
Dec 14, 2020
1,678
Those Bitmap books are brilliant. If you're reading this thread you should probably buy them if you haven't already, especially the Metal Slug one.

You don't even have to specify which books you are talking about. :)

I own almost everything they've published and they never, ever put out subpar product.

(And you are dead-right about the SNK books being required reading)
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
It's funny because their 90s games were better but I barely ever heard about them in the 90s. I didn't start getting into their games until the early 2000s. People talk about them more now but they have less games and their 3D games are... Anyway.

I swear, every bowling alley had one. A 4 slot cab still sits at the one by my parents next to a Daytona USA machine. I've considered offering to buy it, but the CRT is pretty dim and has these persistent diagonal lines.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,582
I'd like them to stop treating their PC fanbase like crap when it comes to new releases.

Don't release PC versions months or even years later than console versions.

Don't keep the prices high for years and hardly ever put them on sale.

Don't release versions specific to different ecosystems and then don't allow them to play with one another.

Don't say you're turning down an exclusivity deal and then take two one after the other... Another reminder that Samurai Shodown is still not on Steam.