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fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
In a recent thread, someone who had first-hand information stated that Hong Kong protesters were far from being peaceful protesters. Fights for freedom often involve a part of violence this is true. In such events a lot of things are often broken, fires happen,etc.Bjt is it a reason to not side with protesters? I follow news loosely but so far I haven't read anything that would make me not side with protesters. Yes there are probably people using demonstrations as an opportunity to spread violence(this happens here in France as well), but I am yet to read abouta very wrong misdeed hong kong protesters would have one.

Are there people in Hong Kong who are scared by protesters because of violence, is it a thing?
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
I mean, there is footage of police officers being excessively brutal to protesters, so it's really hard to blame them. There is a segment of the left that likes to stan for China no matter what (because they're anti-American and thus "anti-imperialist" (even though they are clearly an autocratic regime that brutalized minorities)) so they tend to smear movements that are anti-China. You might be hearing some of that as well.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,946

Listen to Act Five of this recent episode of This American Life to hear it one from guy, it basically amounts to people who think the protesters are making much ado about nothing and causing more damage/disruption in the process of protesting than would have existed otherwise.
 
Jul 10, 2018
583
So the situatuon is not all black and white, whether you view them as protestors or rioters is dependent on the news sources you choose to watch.

My family resides in HK and they say for the most part almost everyone agrees the government needs some sort of reform. But many people also feel that a lot of the protesters are becoming too radical and artacking people who don't agree with their actions or speak out against them.

Some protestors are able to be rational and realsitic, with their goals but the more extreme ones are at the point where they just want to "fuck China" above everything else.

So yes, the protestors are not innocent freedom fighters, they are aggressive, foul mouthed and full of hatred, but they are also fighting for the betterment of Hong Kongs future. It's not black and white or as simple as a "free HK" or "fuck China" hashtag on Twitter.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,053
I think it's important to remember that while it may be coming to a head now, these aren't new tensions out of nowhere. Years ago, people in Hong Kong were protesting Pokemon name changes that unified the names between Hong Kong and the rest of China. It wasn't anything to joke about; China is eliminating Hong Kong's language and replacing it with their own, so falling in line with China's nomenclature is falling in line with an attempt at surpressing the autonomy of Hong Kong.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
My family resides in HK and they say for the most part almost everyone agrees the government needs some sort of reform. But many people also feel that a lot of the protesters are becoming too radical and artacking people who don't agree with their actions or speak out against them.
This narrative appears to be a super common way of discrediting anti-establishment movements by laser-focusing the conversation on individuals and their tone/actions, instead of focusing on the demands of the movement as a whole. It's extremely hard to not read what you wrote as state propaganda, in all honesty. Many countries are familiar with this kind of conversation, and it raises my alarms every time I read these 'both sides' justifications.
 
Jul 10, 2018
583
This narrative appears to be a super common way of discrediting anti-establishment movements by laser-focusing the conversation on individuals and their tone/actions, instead of focusing on the demands of the movement as a whole. It's extremely hard to not read what you wrote as state propaganda, in all honesty. Many countries are familiar with this kind of conversation, and it raises my alarms every time I read these 'both sides' justifications.

Did you not see the part where I said they are fighting for the betterment of Hong Kongs future?

See this is the problem, I've stepped foot into HK many times in my life. I know the people there, I speak the language. I can follow the news there better than most people here in the west can. When innocent civilians trying to live their lives are being punished from the choas going on, do they not matter? Are their livelihoods insignificant as long everyone else shouts "freedom and democracy" at the top of their lungs?

OP asked for a different angle on the protest and that's what I shedded light on. Everyone in the west knows about the movement and it's demands. You don't need me to tell you what they are. But few know about the average Hong Konger who is caught in the middle of everything. This is why people are afraid to even be objective about this issue, you'll just be denounced as spewing state propaganda. It's ridiculous.
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
So the situatuon is not all black and white, whether you view them as protestors or rioters is dependent on the news sources you choose to watch.

My family resides in HK and they say for the most part almost everyone agrees the government needs some sort of reform. But many people also feel that a lot of the protesters are becoming too radical and artacking people who don't agree with their actions or speak out against them.

Some protestors are able to be rational and realsitic, with their goals but the more extreme ones are at the point where they just want to "fuck China" above everything else.

So yes, the protestors are not innocent freedom fighters, they are aggressive, foul mouthed and full of hatred, but they are also fighting for the betterment of Hong Kongs future. It's not black and white or as simple as a "free HK" or "fuck China" hashtag on Twitter.
Have there been any reports of these attacks your family talk about? I haven't seen any myself so would be interested in reading more about this
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
Did you not see the part where I said they are fighting for the betterment of Hong Kongs future?

See this is the problem, I've stepped foot into HK many times in my life. I know the people there, I speak the language. I can follow the news there better than most people here in the west can. When innocent civilians trying to live their lives are being punished from the choas going on, do they not matter? Are their livelihoods insignificant as long everyone else shouts "freedom and democracy" at the top of their lungs?

OP asked for a different angle on the protest and that's what I shedded light on. Everyone in the west knows about the movement and it's demands. You don't need me to tell you what they are. But few know about the average Hong Konger who is caught in the middle of everything. This is why people are afraid to even be objective about this issue, you'll just be denounced as spewing state propaganda. It's ridiculous.

This appeal to "yeah but the common people just wanna live their common lives" argument is used to discredit literally every single movement of civil unrest, there is nothing unique or interesting about this perspective.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
Did you not see the part where I said they are fighting for the betterment of Hong Kongs future?

See this is the problem, I've stepped foot into HK many times in my life. I know the people there, I speak the language. I can follow the news there better than most people here in the west can. When innocent civilians trying to live their lives are being punished from the choas going on, do they not matter? Are their livelihoods insignificant as long everyone else shouts "freedom and democracy" at the top of their lungs?

OP asked for a different angle on the protest and that's what I shedded light on. Everyone in the west knows about the movement and it's demands. You don't need me to tell you what they are. But few know about the average Hong Konger who is caught in the middle of everything. This is why people are afraid to even be objective about this issue, you'll just be denounced as spewing state propaganda. It's ridiculous.
I'm not trying to denounce you personally, I'm sorry if I came across that way, and I do admit that I'm talking entirely from an outsiders perspective.

I'm obviously not saying that the lives of innocent people impacted negatively don't matter, just that those situations are rarely spoken about in concrete fashion. It's always 'the protesters are breaking/burning stuff' or 'people got beaten for disagreeing with the protesters', with no mention of who or why, and without a convincing argument about these anectdotes being representative of the movement and protestors more broadly. I don't see how Hong Kong is any different (I'm open to having my horizons broaded, though), and I can't help but picture people that are relatively content with the status quo, and are more afraid of the people trying to break the monopoly of violence, when I read arguments such as these.

heres a good one from a credible western source about an old man who got beaten up because he chose to disagree with the protesters and more.
I mean, the best case scenario would have been for everyone to go their merry way, obviously...

...but the article literally opens by saying that the man was threatening a crowd of protesters. Out of all the members of the crowd, only two of them punched the man.

What people need to understand is that, in scenarios like these, the people who decide to confront entire crowds in the open are either looking to get martyrized by the media, or they're violent individuals looking for a confrontation. You'd have to be extremely naive to confuse an innocent bystander with a person actively confronting a group of protesters for ideological reasons.

Same thing with the taxi driver that tried to run through the crowd of protesters. That's a malicious person commiting an act of violence, not an innocent person. Not an apples-to-apples comparison, but I doubt people would extend that same sympathy to the Charlottesville killer had he been dragged out of his car and beaten.
 
Last edited:
Jul 10, 2018
583
Have there been any reports of these attacks your family talk about? I haven't seen any myself so would be interested in reading more about this

Its a known fact in the Chinese community. Unfortunately the attacks are the result of high tensions between local Hong Kongers/ protesters and mainland Chinese who reside in HK. Some of the more aggressive protestors will act out on a mainland Chinese citizen if they disagree with the protesters or call them rioters for example.

The truth is there are hate crimes being committed, while we are all ethnically the same race, cultural and social differences have caused us to hate and be bitter towards each other. This is the biggest reason for attacks towards civilians and it is such a local and touchy subject that the local news here would never report.

There are many videos on youtube. Many of them are isolated incidents all you need to do it search on youtube.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
"they're no angels" is the laziest and first complaint you'll here about protestors from anyone invested in maintaining the status quo
 

darkhunger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,270
USA
Violence against status quo is always more frowned upon than status quo violence
Problem is it's no longer just violence against status quo, but an all out ethnic/culture war that's getting personal for both sides. HKers are specifically targeting mainlanders and their businesses, and mainlanders in HK are retaliating. It's only going to spiral into more chaos and violence, and unfortunately it's playing right into the hands of the Chinese government, and pitting all 1+ billion people in Mainland China against them.

Same thing with the taxi driver that tried to run through the crowd of protesters. That's a malicious person commiting an act of violence, not an innocent person. Not an apples-to-apples comparison, but I doubt people would extend that same sympathy to the Charlottesville killer had he been dragged out of his car and beaten.
That's not what happened if you actually watch the video for this particular event. The taxi driver was stopped and there were people opening his car door and trying to get inside before he made the maneuver to swerve. It's a far cry from Charlottesville because he was provoked
 
Last edited:

MPrice

Alt account
Banned
Oct 18, 2019
654
Idk. I've read somewhat credible accounts of some heinous shit when it comes to protestors harrasing people in HK who aren't quite down with the movement. And when the NBA thing happened, there was alot of racist shit coming from Hong Kong protestors online. Also the main question about HK's status isn't black and white at all. China as a regime is also pretty irreprehensible which further muddies the water.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
I work with 2 people from Hong Kong and was surprised to hear that they disagree with the protests. Mostly about the violence. I'm not too educated on the matter myself tho.
 

Kaseoki

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,291
A lot of it is pent up anger and people taking matters into their own hands. Police aren't being the police anymore, so people will have to dish out justice themselves now. There were many incidents where triad gang members were beating up protesters and walked right in front of the police with offensive weapons and the police did nothing. Yet protesters will get assaulted and arrested for simply uttering "721" or "831" (important dates for when citizens got attacked) in front of police. So protesters are dishing out justice themselves now. See a guy waving a knife around yelling how young protesters are low lives? Yeah that guy got mobbed and destroyed.

Sure it's violent. And I have quite a few Hong Kong friends who disagree with the approach that protesters have been using. But my friends have nice cushy jobs and have other passports and countries to run to. They aren't living under the crushing economy and societal doom that is Hong Kong. Everyone is suffering. But there are definitely those who need to shut up because they've been slightly inconvenienced.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
User Banned (5 days): Drive-by posting, accusations of shilling
This thread is ripe for chinese astroturfing.
 
Jul 10, 2018
583
Problem is it's no longer just violence against status quo, but an all out ethnic/culture war that's getting personal for both sides. HKers are specifically targeting mainlanders and their businesses, and mainlanders in HK are retaliating. It's only going to spiral into more chaos and violence, and unfortunately it's playing right into the hands of the Chinese government, and pitting all 1+ billion people in Mainland China to go against them.

This is precisely what is happening. Its an ethnic/ culture war as ludicrous as it sounds seeing as they're the same ethnic group.

People who aren't Chinese or haven't experienced this first hand won't be able to comprehend the situation so I don't blame them. Ultimately true autonomy for HK is not possible unfortunately.

At this rate it's just going to be easier for China to exercise even more control over HK.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,039
One thing I dont understand is that what are they still protesting? I thought they officially withdrew the bill?

Man, gotta wonder what the economy and shit is like over there now? Tourism is probably really really low, tons of people not working and spending money, tons of damage, etc.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,594
standing up to authority that told them to go about their business and not give opposition?

except authority gets to find out this is how things actually work. Sheer physical power inherently exists within a populace as a whole. The authority is in charge of the care an interests of that populace, but when those people aren't happy, authority's job and responsibilities to those people and interests do not change. Authority isn't supposed to switch over to "self-preservation" mode, and if they do, then that is when they are no longer fit to be authority of ANY kind.



the elephant in the room everyone is afraid of is an unfit authority coming in and doing unworthy things to maintain "control" as they see it.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
People who aren't Chinese or haven't experienced this first hand won't be able to comprehend the situation so I don't blame them.
People in the know keep saying this, but just in Western Europe alone we've had shit like The Troubles, or the clashes between the Basque and Catalonian communities with the Spanish government. Cultural and ethnic traits go hand-in-hand with revolutions, if anything this reads to me like a bizarre exceptionalist perspective.
 
Jul 10, 2018
583
A lot of it is pent up anger and people taking matters into their own hands. Police aren't being the police anymore, so people will have to dish out justice themselves now. There were many incidents where triad gang members were beating up protesters and walked right in front of the police with offensive weapons and the police did nothing. Yet protesters will get assaulted and arrested for simply uttering "721" or "831" (important dates for when citizens got attacked) in front of police. So protesters are dishing out justice themselves now. See a guy waving a knife around yelling how young protesters are low lives? Yeah that guy got mobbed and destroyed.

Sure it's violent. And I have quite a few Hong Kong friends who disagree with the approach that protesters have been using. But my friends have nice cushy jobs and have other passports and countries to run to. They aren't living under the crushing economy and societal doom that is Hong Kong. Everyone is suffering. But there are definitely those who need to shut up because they've been slightly inconvenienced.

Yes the people who are well off of course don't feel the need to protest. There are people who are slightly inconvenienced and then there are people who's lives have been severely impacted. Mainland Chinese who own businesses are being targeted by protesters simply for being associated with China.

Everyone is being impacted a different way, it doesn't mean their voices shouldn't be heard or that their opinions carry no weight. They after all are people of HK too. And if we're being realistic, with the way the protests have spiraled out of control, it's not going to be good for HK in the long run. China will simply play the waiting game and it'll be easier for them the exert a tighter grip on HK in the future.
 

darkhunger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,270
USA
People in the know keep saying this, but just in Western Europe alone we've had shit like The Troubles, or the clashes between the Basque and Catalonian communities with the Spanish government. Cultural and ethnic traits go hand-in-hand with revolutions, if anything this reads to me like a bizarre exceptionalist perspective.
We were trying to relate what's happening to what you know - not trying to make it seem like you have no idea what ethnic conflicts are. Fact of the matter is this isnt just an anti-government protest anymore but is something much bigger than that. The Catalonia-Castilian conflict is actually getting to be an apt analogy at this point.
 
Jul 10, 2018
583
People in the know keep saying this, but just in Western Europe alone we've had shit like The Troubles, or the clashes between the Basque and Catalonian communities with the Spanish government. Cultural and ethnic traits go hand-in-hand with revolutions, if anything this reads to me like a bizarre exceptionalist perspective.

I get what you're saying, but this is unique to our culture and our history. The relations between China and HK go back decades and decades leading up to this.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
We were trying to relate what's happening to what you know - not trying to make it seem like you have no idea what ethnic conflicts are. Fact of the matter is this isnt just an anti-government protest anymore but is something much bigger than that.
I get what you're saying, but this is unique to our culture and our history. The relations between China and HK go back decades and decades leading up to this.
Fair enough, I guess I misread that post. These situations always have complexities of their own, of course.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Absolutely, I've never tried meth and I'm sure I understand how fucked and soul crushing being a meth head is. But do I really?

You don't need to live in Hong Kong to understand its geopolitical relationship with mainland China, what the protests are about and what usually happens when people protest. All of these are documented and pretty well studied things.

You also don't need to do meth to understand its effects and consequences btw.
 

Crimsonskies

Alt account
Banned
Nov 1, 2019
700
A guy with a Mandarin accent (mainlander) bit a pro democracy activist ear off and stabbed several others while shouting Hong Kong is part of China so there is a lot of violence to go around here and this happened today.

The violence and radical nature of the protestors did not come from nowhere, the police have been randomly arresting people and engaged in a high level of brutal violence.

The Hong Kong Police started this after months of peaceful protests which was ignored by the pro Beijing legislature.

 

Kaseoki

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,291
Yes the people who are well off of course don't feel the need to protest. There are people who are slightly inconvenienced and then there are people who's lives have been severely impacted. Mainland Chinese who own businesses are being targeted by protesters simply for being associated with China.

Everyone is being impacted a different way, it doesn't mean their voices shouldn't be heard or that their opinions carry no weight. They after all are people of HK too. And if we're being realistic, with the way the protests have spiraled out of control, it's not going to be good for HK in the long run. China will simply play the waiting game and it'll be easier for them the exert a tighter grip on HK in the future.

A good majority of voices that are against the protesters point mainly at economic woes. I understand that money is really tight especially in Hong Kong. Rent is sometimes more than half the take home salary. But then again everyone is really in the same situation anyway. The way that people talk about how they are being affected is.. well somewhat rather selfish. Its unfortunately the mentality and culture in Hong Kong. Me me me. And I don't blame them because that's how Hong Kong society has been shaped because it is so competitive and ruthless. But knowing that it's every Hong Konger vs China, people should stop being so selfish about their own personal needs and think about the greater needs of the whole city population. People are being stabbed, assaulted and raped, and other people are complaining about their business losing money/being made redundant/police families complaining their children getting bullied.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
you can form an understanding, but that doesn't make a thing a part of you like experiencing it would.

who wants to be understood the most, is what I would be looking for.

Sure. But one doesn't need this conflict to be part of his soul to understand it. I could even argue that some distance might be useful in maintaining some balanced perspective.
 

realSentientStone

alt account
Banned
Aug 25, 2019
51
Vancouver, BC
I mean, there is footage of police officers being excessively brutal to protesters, so it's really hard to blame them. There is a segment of the left that likes to stan for China no matter what (because they're anti-American and thus "anti-imperialist" (even though they are clearly an autocratic regime that brutalized minorities)) so they tend to smear movements that are anti-China. You might be hearing some of that as well.

It really is a gong show now. You will say the police are excessively brutal... but I see many instances of the protesters saying and doing some low AF things to provoke the police on purpose in order to take photos and spread more propaganda online. I think I heard from my relatives that the protesters also dug up the gravesite of one of the police officer's relatives. It has really became a childish shit show in Hong Kong. The protesters (not all, but a lot of them) are very smart... they purposefully spread photos and ads of themselves helping the elderly, helping poor and innocent animals, but they behave like animals themselves. They are more hooligans. I feel it will not be solved anytime soon because the state of the consciousness in HK in general is very paranoid and antagonistic due to the fast-paced lifestyle and general culture that developed over the years (even before this I noticed this about the locals). Of course, there is a general bias against China, which is why this biased reporting is so easily accepted by most English speakers. For those who grew up under the contemporary capitalist culture of the past decades, it is hard for one's ego to accept the rising wealth of China and their perspective and intent to do what is good for their country. Both sides are just bitching at each other and escalating the hatred (the pro-China nationalists and the HK protesters are the same in this way).
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,197
I mean, there is footage of police officers being excessively brutal to protesters, so it's really hard to blame them. There is a segment of the left that likes to stan for China no matter what (because they're anti-American and thus "anti-imperialist" (even though they are clearly an autocratic regime that brutalized minorities)) so they tend to smear movements that are anti-China. You might be hearing some of that as well.
Fucking Tankies
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
I work with 2 people from Hong Kong and was surprised to hear that they disagree with the protests. Mostly about the violence. I'm not too educated on the matter myself tho.

Yeah, insofar as I'm aware, my own relatives in Hong Kong aren't too happy with the protests either. I think one of them has taken to hanging an American flag so that it's visible from the storefront glass because the protestors have been known to vandalize businesses suspected to harbor mainland sympathies. Don't get me wrong: I am very sympathetic to the protestors and absolutely believe that their five points should be addressed.

With that being said, I rather dislike this sort of colonialist paternalistic vibe I get from Era and a lot of other places that automatically assumes that all the people of Hong Kong want complete freedom from China. Before the protests, during 2016, the proportion of the population that wanted complete independence was below 20%. What's more, Hong Kong has been dependent on the mainland for food, water, and power since like, the 1960s. So, an independent Hong Kong is not likely, and whether the majority of the population wants independence in the first place remains in the air.

And while I believe that the minority protestors have the more righteous cause, there is a real human cost to all of this, and it frustrates me that the majority of the discussion to be had is about American corporations supposedly acting on the whims of China rather than their shareholders.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,569
A guy with a Mandarin accent (mainlander) bit a pro democracy activist ear off and stabbed several others while shouting Hong Kong is part of China so there is a lot of violence to go around here and this happened today.

The violence and radical nature of the protestors did not come from nowhere, the police have been randomly arresting people and engaged in a high level of brutal violence.

The Hong Kong Police started this after months of peaceful protests which was ignored by the pro Beijing legislature.


As an outsider I understand this to be the case. Protesters are getting more violent because the police kept using more drastic measures.

It doesn't help that the media that I have seen seem more focused on reporting on the violence but less on peaceful protesting.
 

Gravidee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,363
Protesters are getting more violent because the police kept using more drastic measures.

I don't think this is a very good excuse for the violence. The onus is on the protestors to make their cause look good, even if they may have to be hurt for it to work. They should be on the defensive rather than attempt to be on the offensive. That way, more sympathy and goodwill can be gained from others watching or hearing about the protests. As it stands, I don't understand what destroying the MTR infrastructure has anything to do with gaining more democratic rights when all it does is hinder not only their own movement but the wellbeing of others living in Hong Kong that depend on its use to make a living.

There's also the fact that there is no real plan. I was on board with the movement when the aim was to get rid of the bill. But now that it's been formally removed, what's the goal? To free everybody that was arrested since the protests began? To gain complete independence from China altogether? There were five demands listed back in late summer but I'm not really seeing movement on any real discussions or negotiations going on on that front.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,350
The protesters are getting increasingly violent as a response to the increasingly violent and authoritarian tactics of the Hong Kong police and a government they have no legal means of removing. The police have absolutely no independent oversight and are not answerable to anyone, invade private property without warrants, collude with the triads, indiscriminately attack people (protesters and bystanders both) with batons, pepper spray, and tear gas, deliberately target and attack journalists and social workers, physically and sexually abuse those who have been arrested, and at this point pretty much see the general Hong Kong population as their enemy. People have lost their jobs for their political views, schools have called the police on protesting students, the police have violently broken up even completely peaceful demonstrations, the government is using colonial-era emergency powers to pass drastic new laws. And remember, this is not a democracy. There will never be a point when Hong Kongers can vote their government out, a government which increasingly only takes direction from Beijing. This is not a situation where a purely non-violent movement is even possible.

To directly respond to your OP, of course not everyone in Hong Kong supports the protesters. No mass movement in history has had perfect 100% support. Protests like these are incredibly disruptive to society and there's a real cost to continually escalating violence. For quite a lot of people, an imagined return to the status quo is preferable, if such a thing is even possible at this point.

This narrative appears to be a super common way of discrediting anti-establishment movements by laser-focusing the conversation on individuals and their tone/actions, instead of focusing on the demands of the movement as a whole. It's extremely hard to not read what you wrote as state propaganda, in all honesty. Many countries are familiar with this kind of conversation, and it raises my alarms every time I read these 'both sides' justifications.
This, basically.

One thing I dont understand is that what are they still protesting? I thought they officially withdrew the bill?
The bill was what sparked the protests initially, but they have expanded to encompass a much larger range of complaints against the government and the state of society in general. The commonly stated five demands of the protests are: withdrawal of the extradition bill, an independent inquiry into police brutality, retraction of the classification of the protests as "riots", amnesty for the arrested protestors, and universal suffrage for legislative and executive elections. 1 out of 5 demands is not good enough. This is fundamentally about the political and cultural future of Hong Kong - will it continue to maintain some degree of autonomy or will it be completely absorbed into the mainland post-2047? China has been increasingly assertive in intervening in Hong Kong affairs over the past several years, so the current political situation, even ignoring the protests, is not stable.

There were five demands listed back in late summer but I'm not really seeing movement on any real discussions or negotiations going on on that front.
Who the fuck are they going to negotiate with? The only people the Hong Kong government are willing to listen to are in Beijing.
 

Gravidee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,363
Who the fuck are they going to negotiate with? The only people the Hong Kong government are willing to listen to are in Beijing.

Well have there even been any attempts as of late to establish a proper meeting or negotiations between the HK government and leader(s) of the movement or is this one of those "Well they probably won't listen so we won't even try!" cases? In fact, who is even in charge of the movement at this point? If there is no leader, demands of the protest itself are cloudy at best, and there isn't even a long term plan for what happens if HK is "freed" then what is this movement even about anymore?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
Joshua Wong was barred from running for office, politicians holding large election meetings are deemed illegal gathering, people aren't even allowed to wear masks. There is no legitimate option for them anymore, so to apply morality about violence is nonsensical, they're doing all they can legitimately but it is the goal of the puppet government is to make it all illegal to have an excuse to shame and brutalize them.
 

Jaysc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
201
Well have there even been any attempts as of late to establish a proper meeting or negotiations between the HK government and leader(s) of the movement or is this one of those "Well they probably won't listen so we won't even try!" cases? In fact, who is even in charge of the movement at this point? If there is no leader, demands of the protest itself are cloudy at best, and there isn't even a long term plan for what happens if HK is "freed" then what is this movement even about anymore?

How can there be any attempts if the goverment doesn't provide the options. The last time Carrie Lam spoke to the public was awful and meant nothing.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,241
Well have there even been any attempts as of late to establish a proper meeting or negotiations between the HK government and leader(s) of the movement or is this one of those "Well they probably won't listen so we won't even try!" cases? In fact, who is even in charge of the movement at this point? If there is no leader, demands of the protest itself are cloudy at best, and there isn't even a long term plan for what happens if HK is "freed" then what is this movement even about anymore?

The protest movement is leaderless by design. That was a learning from 2014's protests, and makes the movement more resilient to attack.

The protest movement has consistently asked for 5 key demands:
1) Full withdrawal of the extradition bill
2) A commission to investigate police brutality
3) Retraction of the classification of protesters as "terrorists"
4) Amnesty for those protesters who have been arrested
5) Dual universal suffrage -- right now the Chief Executive for instance is elected by a small selection of people

They will not end the protesting until at least all five of these demands are met by the government. This has been a consistent chant at every protest, "Five demands, not one less!"

As far as meeting with the HK government, Carrie Lam had at least one town hall. She basically parroted the same answers she always does. Lam is basically a puppet of the mainland government and as far as I understand it as little autonomy to affect change. Most people have little faith in Lam to resolve the situation at this point. Let's also keep in mind that during the 2014 protests the government met with the then-leaders of the protest movement, and those people were subsequently jailed. So there is a lot of skepticism about dialogue being an avenue for change.

There are basically two camps of protesters: those who only attend peaceful protests, which comprise a large percentage of the movement, and those who are the "hardcore" protesters who tend to cause destruction and use violence as tools for change. Both segments of the movement seem to feel that each plays a part in trying to reach their demands.
 
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