Oof, that's gonna be messy. Smash Ultimate's online is pretty bad in my limited experience.
Why not use tournament results for balance patches? Especially in a game where couch versus is as important as Smash?
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
What Daigo Expects in SF6 (wants to get rid of comeback mechanics)
- Thread starter Bob White
- Start date
Why not use tournament results for balance patches? Especially in a game where couch versus is as important as Smash?
Vtrigger meter should be built using vskills judiciously exclusively (and the meter gained from vskill increased) + maybe a slow constant gain for both players. Atm like 80% of vmeter gain is because of health loss.
Then the entire system would need a complete overhaul, because some character's V-Skills are great, while others are garbage. Some characters can barely build V-Gauge without taking damage or getting lucky CCs.
I don't have a strong opinion either way. As someone who is painfully average at fighting games, I like how the comeback mechanics can turn the tide; but I also get pissed off when I lose a match due to one.
Like Daigo pointed out, comeback mechanics became a thing to lower the barrier of entry and make fighting games more accessible. But if you take them out, you are going to lose players who don't have fun playing the game because they have no chance when they're mechanically outclassed by an opponent.
And the problem is, someone gets their ass kicked enough and they're going to walk away from the game. Eventually, only mid-to-high level players will stick with it, so you're going to see the user base drop off a cliff.
Like Daigo pointed out, comeback mechanics became a thing to lower the barrier of entry and make fighting games more accessible. But if you take them out, you are going to lose players who don't have fun playing the game because they have no chance when they're mechanically outclassed by an opponent.
And the problem is, someone gets their ass kicked enough and they're going to walk away from the game. Eventually, only mid-to-high level players will stick with it, so you're going to see the user base drop off a cliff.
This is the issue right here. Beginner players ( I don't wanna say casual , because the comeback mechanics aren't even accessible to the casual player) hate losing a match because of comeback mechanics. People hate losing to a comeback mechanic more than losing to a person beating you in neutral.
So for every person you gain by adding OP comeback mechanics , you lose players who get frustrated of losing to them. Many Low - Mid level players I know stopped SFV because of this and they had no issues in SFIV.
Eventually you are left with the same number of players. Casual players still leave the game day 1 since FGs are hard af and have a steep learning curve if your execution isnt good.
MK11's also has a serious problem where they just are really poorly balanced.
Erron Black has the fastest Fatal Blow at point-blank range with an 11 frame start-up, and his also reaches full-screen after just 23 frames. Just the threat of it is so powerful that you have to play incredibly conservatively against a low health Erron Black: No jumping, no projectiles, no poking, because otherwise you're eating a full-screen punish for 300 damage.
On the other hand you have Skarlet whose Fatal Blow has a 13 frame start-up and all the range of a toddler's arms. On a zoning character.
I'd prefer Fatal Blows to be more like Skarlet's than Erron Black's, but the sheer disparity between those fatal blows is ridiculous. At the very least, their damage should be adjusted across the board based on how easy it actually is to connect with them.
exactly...This is also what I mean when I was talking about uniform designed. Some characters V-skill is literally an after thought. Some are too good, some have hardly any bearing on the character but are just combo extenders. Tools like this need to be more uniform across the board, you can still have characters being unique and different but having fundamental similar tools.
Then Capcom doesn't let anything breathe...Ken's V-skill cancel used to be pretty instant and he had a stop n go style in the beta. I think Capcom found an infinite and nerfed on release, he also had a 3 frame button (which everyone should have). Mika clap used to put u in the corner from anywhere, which was arguably cheap, but was there better ways to balance that out? I think so...that's what I mean by uniform, if all V-Skills worked the same, (ie. way to gain meter)if everyone had a 3 frame button, etc...Capcom could really see what nerfs and buffs were actually needed.
All characters should have a 3 frame button. How about all characters have one of their V-skill be a parry/dodge for defensive play. All characters have a good reversal, good V-reversal, etc...Capcom are balancing each character in a vacuum almost lol. They need to start from a higher baseline.
Rage arts aren't a huge deal but they don't add much to Tekken other than forcing you to play extremely cautiously against bad players. It really just slows down the game. Rage drives, on the other hand, are a fantastic addition to Tekken - especially for some characters. It opens up a lot of new mechanics and strategies and really makes certain characters (see: King,) absolute comeback machines.
I'm going to cite Vega again. That character has a trash v-reversal, a v-skill which is actually useless, bottom-tier v-trigger, non-invincible super and some of the worst anti-airs in the game, and, for what reason? It's not like his footsie game is THAT much better than anyone else's.
Last edited:
The devs can't balance the game only through high-level tournament play. A character that is considered balance at that level might become abusable at low-level play or when online input lag is factored in.
I feel like what beginners hate most is not getting a chance to play, be it by either zoning or rushdown.
So I think not having good defensive tools could be a bigger issue, because comeback mechanic wins tend to even out over time for/against.
That's the reason I stopped playing fighting games online. I wasn't actually playing them anyway, just got to see my character get destroyed with no clue what even happened.
If I were to pick a comeback mechanic, I'd want gratuitous combo breakers. A way to force the game back to neutral when you're at a disadvantage.
Fighting games are amazing when you actually get to play. When you don't, why bother buying them?
GG/BB have bursting to get out of pressure
In BB you give up your overdrive (limit break "better in every way for a few seconds" mode) to do it, but beginners wont be really using it much so it's a fair tradeoff to get out of a combo right at the beginning if you know its going to go on for a while, and you can do it anytime in a round, not just when losing
in GG bursting doesnt negatively affect your super meter (Tension Gauge) but by using it defensively you're not really using it 100% as if you manage to hit your opponent with it in neutral you max out your tension gauge, and if the opponent anticipates and blocks it they can punish you for trying to predictably get out of a combo early.
There's a LOT of dudes who've been playing for a decade or two, and once you've been playing that long you're not relearning every game but carrying over your existing library of knowledge and integrating it with any new mechanics that are in the particular game you're playing. It's best to find a friend/discord with people who can teach you and play on your level instead of hoping to never meet vets online who will blow us up without mercy (also maybe try ranked, if you're not at an advanced level it should have you fighting other greenhorns instead of Ancient ElderGods)
Last edited:
Ah, I haven't played the GuiltyGears or BlazBlues. Only ArcSys game I played was FighterZ. Because pretty Dragon Ball explosions. What can I say, I enjoy punching people into mountains and then the mountain explodes. Game never really clicked for me more than that, but it was enough to be happy with the purchase.
Speaking of Dragon Ball, an example of what I was thinking can be taken from Xenoverse 2, too. In that game, if you are in hitstun, you can spend Stamina to do an escape vanish. But! If the attacking player reads it, he can attack behind his character and get a new fresh combo on you as you appear. It gives counterplay to being comboed, but sets you up for worse if you're predictable about it. That's kind of what I want. To get to play, even though I'm at a severe disadvantage at the moment.
There's ASW games, but Killer Instinct and Injustice also have those mechanics.
Yeah, that's exactly how Burst in ASW games work, and FighterZ now that they've changed how Sparking works. "Burst Bait" is a concept where if the opponent is predictable about their use of getting out of a combo by trying to Burst, you can block it or avoid it and punish them for it.
It was a mechanic he made a comeback with, my point stands
Yes, but it's not a "comeback mechanic" just like "blocking and teching" aren't comeback mechanics.
If he had block all of those attacks would you call blocking a comeback mechanic?
Comeback mechanics are systems specifically design to help Players that are on the losing side, for example in MK11 you got "Fatal Blows" that are powerful attacks that can only be used when your health is below a certain percentage, meaning you have to be getting your ass whooped to a certain point to use them.
You cannot be serious.
Kinda is, yeah. It's a reward for good play, be it offensive or defensive play.
Street Fighter is anime in the same way Dragon Ball is anime.
Of course it's anime and it's fucking stupid but it became mainstream so it's not as disgusting as some other culprits. But you still don't bring attention to the fact that it's anime, it's like pointing out that one person has a disease when you're hanging out at a party.
Last edited:
Well, when your game is designed around -2 frame data, having an invincible reversal at all times breaks the game.
I don't think sparking is a combo breaker. It's not burst. It only has the aspect of getting you out of jail but not a combo.
Unless that recently changed or something?
That's true, it only works on block, so it's not the same as a full on Burst. It is a way to get the opponent off of you during pressure, though.
Mmhmm.
Now if we could just get a negative as fuck superdash, no auto combo cross up unless Teen Gohan because we should do everything in our power to buff Teen Gohan, give beerus ball anti superdash property, give characters air normals to hit superdash with, multiple assists, and make some more technical characters and we can be gucci.
I'd be cool if supers were gone too.
As a casual, I don't think V Triggers made SFV more appealing, as they can still be used back on me. I'd still rather have a more even playing field.
But if they just make a different, less power comeback mechanic, maybe that'll work too. Or maybe a side mechanic that isn't based on getting hit.
I'm not going to write off the possibility as if I played SFVI and know it doesn't work yet.
As a casual, I don't think V Triggers made SFV more appealing, as they can still be used back on me. I'd still rather have a more even playing field.
But if they just make a different, less power comeback mechanic, maybe that'll work too. Or maybe a side mechanic that isn't based on getting hit.
I'm not going to write off the possibility as if I played SFVI and know it doesn't work yet.
By this logic, if Daigo proceeded to get a comeback pressing nothing but crouching medium punch, then crouching medium punch would qualify as a comeback mechanic.
Last edited:
Yeah uh, T.Gohan is considered high/top tier atm so how about no. All characters can hit superdash with j.L with the right timing and other characters have other tools.
How about yes. We should make him plus on everything while we at it. That would be fair.
On topic: I'd argue it's the fact that for so many of them the timing is way too snug for how easily you are allowed to skip neutral with that mechanic. Piccolo n a few others can do it in their sleep, but other cats more of a hurdle.
You realize they've already been doing that and it hasn't been messy at all, right?
I don't think you really understand this thread
Acquire gud, better way of putting it now that souls bois poisoned git gud, because we need a way to tell someone to play better.
During a Japanese touring car season, if you win, they make you carry extra weight for the next race.
No character at the moment is unusable/bad outside of Krillin. Stop blaming the characters and get better.
Take this to the extreme, Daigo used his knowledge and experience to get the read on Wong's CA attempt. Daigo is his own comeback mechanic confirmed.
Didn't blame the characters slick, just saying superdash should be more negative on block given it's free neutral win status.
Characters having more consistent answers or more options when in the air would help neutral overall as well.
Last edited:
What point! That it's Ironic that he one day made a famous comeback without a comeback mechanic, and now want to get rid of comeback mechanics?! 🤔
I meant that there are people that don't know that cross-ups /aerials have to be blocked high. I can't remember if Capcom ever bothered to put that in a tutorial but it's been that way for a long time.
That's pretty much already the case for 1v1 modes. Games like Mordhau and For Honor do so well because the bads can group up with other bads and try to 2 v 1 people.