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Bob White

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,931


Basically, he says comeback mechanics need to go because they were implemented to help grow the FGC, but now players have caught up and they aren't needed anymore. A lot of people, including me, have been salty over V trigger in SFV and how it basically allows someone to completely dictate the match after being hit enough times. Rewarded for getting outplayed pretty much.

Daigo mentions this but what's interesting to me is that he's looking at it from the perspective of "that gap has closed, time to make things even again" which is something I never really thought about.

Time for x factor / v trigger to go?
 

Darkmaigle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,520
I thought of comeback mechanics as a way to reward risky play but he's right. It's time to level the field.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,888
Haven't watched the video yet, but that's really not the main goal of comeback mechanics, at least not anymore. A large part of it is to add excitement to the viewership and hype for the players themselves. I think many mechanics in these games exist for that purpose. X-Factor, V-Trigger, Fatal Blow, Sparking Blast, etc. make the viewers excited and bring swings to a match that make them more interested in watching.

It's the same reason certain character archetypes and playstyles have been deemphasized in modern fighting games, building games around rushdown and getting in on the opponent, because that's what viewers like to watch the most.

FighterZ is pretty much the epitome of all of these issues put together, but people like to bag on SFV for it.
 

NeroPaige

Member
Jan 8, 2018
1,709
I can see why it's implemented, the non-professionals need to "feel good" and feel like they have a chance. Hail Mary's, player balancing "momentum control" gimmicks for comebacks, artificial hype (for viewers) from such "crazy" comebacks, low skill ceilings etc.

But I personally would hate to be a professional gamer or playing it online hardcore in such an environment, it would feel more like gambling and random.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,128
I don't see comeback mechanics going any where .
We have long gone go past the point where it is to even the playing field.
Hell super moves were a comeback mechanic when we first had them .
 

DR2K

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,946
Guy who made his fame off comeback mechanic doesn't want them in future games.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Comeback mechanics are the worst part about fighting games.

Agreed. I've always hated them, and while I'm not super into fighting games anymore, it seems like all of the ones I dabble with have one in some form or another.

The idea that you get a bonus for getting your ass handed to you just does not sit well with me.

Guy who made his fame off comeback mechanic doesn't want them in future games.

Are you referring to the Street Fighter III parry?
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
The problem with Capcom's comeback mechanics is that they're too extreme. X-Factor is just garbage and V-Triggers aren't the worst idea, but not everyone's triggers can really be described as a comeback mechanic considering how different they all are.

They got it right once with baroque in Tatsunoko v Capcom.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
I mean, Street Fighter is also the same series where you get stunned for getting your ass kicked. That's like the opposite of a comeback mechanic.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,887
Columbia, SC
I don't see comeback mechanics going any where .
We have long gone go past the point where it is to even the playing field.
Hell super moves were a comeback mechanic when we first had them .

I think so in SNK games but definately not SF. You didn't get meter in ST for getting your ass beat, you just got your ass beat, probably close to dizzy, while the one giving you the beating has a near full or full super bar.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,382
There's no chance that the comeback super moves are going away, but I wish they would go

In the video he talks about how he doesn't mind the comeback mechanic. What he takes issue with is it rewarding a player that's getting hit. Instead he thinks you should have to earn the ability to make a comeback through being offensive and hitting the opponent.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,573
I wonder what he would think about something similar to a V-trigger that you can use at any point in the match, but only once.
 

Rizific

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,950
I don't even play fighting games but come back mechanics sounds fucking terrible to me, ESPECIALLY in a fighting game. I mean it's 1v1, wanna come back? Then outplay your opponent.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,657
Good luck with that. This stuff is extremely scrub/noob friendly.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,128
I think so in SNK games but definately not SF. You didn't get meter in ST for getting your ass beat, you just got your ass beat, probably close to dizzy, while the one giving you the beating has a near full or full super bar.

True but for a lot of games you don't need to get your ass kick to have them for eg Sparking Blast and X - Factor .
So i was really talking about over all more than anything else .
 

Garou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,625
PSA: Supers are not a Comeback-mechanic, they are a resource. You can choose to use your meter for EX-moves or accumulate enough for your Super, that's just general fighting-strategy.
V-triggers overpower your character for like 20% of the match, which has way bigger ramifications.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Oct 25, 2017
47,005
the irony is all the developers want players to feel like THIS:

6ce8wjnn.gif


without actually putting in the work


YOU DID THIS DAIGO
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,228
Tokyo, Japan
You can have even/balanced comeback mechanics. As long as you can get a read on them, and punish poor use of them like anything else, then they should be fine.

Removing them outright would have a detrimental effect. After the revival of FGs it would be a shame to push away so many casual players and viewers again.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
Haven't watched the video yet, but that's really not the main goal of comeback mechanics, at least not anymore. A large part of it is to add excitement to the viewership and hype for the players themselves. I think many mechanics in these games exist for that purpose. X-Factor, V-Trigger, Fatal Blow, Sparking Blast, etc. make the viewers excited and bring swings to a match that make them more interested in watching.

It's the same reason certain character archetypes and playstyles have been deemphasized in modern fighting games, building games around rushdown and getting in on the opponent, because that's what viewers like to watch the most.

FighterZ is pretty much the epitome of all of these issues put together, but people like to bag on SFV for it.
I dunno if this is true when MK11 is intentionally way less rushdown-heavy than MKX and Smash Bros since Brawl has been getting less and less reliant on rushdown. SFV and DBFZ aren't the entire fighting game genre.
 
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Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,989
North Carolina
I mean it's hard not to agree. Why should the losing player get so much for you know, losing? It's illogical. You can have comeback mechanics but the way they do it now is bad.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,888
I dunno if this is true when MK11 is intentionally way less rushdown-heavy than MKX and Smash Bros since Brawl has been getting less and less reliant on rushdown. SFV and DBFZ aren't the entire fighting game genre.
I include all fighting games in this. It doesn't matter that MK11 is less rushdown heavy than MKX was: the game still incentivizes that playstyle the most. The game has maybe 2 legit zoners out of its entire cast right now. The game is still all about the 50/50s up close. Look at all of the top tiers (Sonya, Geras, Erron, and Scorpion) and you'll see exactly what this game values and where the meta revolves around.

Same for Smash. You're not going to see a character play lame in that game (and in any case you do in previous ones like Jigglypuff in Melee or Sonic in SSB4, the viewers will make it known how much they hate it). The recent patch in SSBU even nerfed all projectile options. Again, consider the top tier and you'll see very well the kind of characters who are the most suited for the style of play the game emphasizes. More than that, though, Smash isn't the kind of game where playing lame can even really work because of how it functions. You're gonna need to go in to get the kill eventually.
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
6,386
Guy who made his fame off comeback mechanic doesn't want them in future games.
Lol except you have the chance to do that exact same parry at full hp or mid hp. The option to parry is always there. It didn't pop up because he was losing, he parried those shits because he's good. Your hot take isn't backed up by facts, go study FG mechanics
 
OP
OP
Bob White

Bob White

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,931
After the revival of FGs it would be a shame to push away so many casual players and viewers again.

But these people don't actually stick around and play the game. At some point you need to build an environment that the players are happy with. The word "gambling" just shouldn't be something one of the top players ever says when talking about the game he plays.

I believe PR Balrog said it best when he said..."The casino always wins." when talking about SFV back in 2016. Some players just aren't happy.
 

demondance

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
I would LOVE for fighting games to go back to the days before super meters and try a different path. Many of these mechanics serve to simply delay the inevitable, with the exception of some V-Triggers and mechanics like X-Factor which can be actual major momentum shifts... which just end up feeling like robbery.

They don't actually serve to help lesser players get a leg up most of the time, and they don't fool that player into feeling like they did something special. Grabbing a somewhat unearned chunk of health off their opponent usually doesn't get them the round if there's an actual skill gap.

I'd really like to see fighting games go back to faster rounds, where maybe you get pummeled but it doesn't bother you because bam, you're on to the next one. That's what made SF2 such a potent game that people still play today.

Compare that to something like DBFZ, where even if you buy the hell out of the concept of the game sometimes the matches are so long that the conclusion feels inevitable a full 30+ seconds before you get there and it's a snooze fest even for the soon-to-be winner.

It probably won't happen anytime soon, unfortunately.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
I include all fighting games in this. It doesn't matter that MK11 is less rushdown heavy than MKX was: the game still incentivizes that playstyle the most. The game has maybe 2 legit zoners out of its entire cast right now. The game is still all about the 50/50s up close. Look at all of the top tiers (Sonya, Geras, Erron, and Scorpion) and you'll see exactly what this game values and where the meta revolves around.

Same for Smash. You're not going to see a character play lame in that game. The recent patch in SSBU even nerfed all projectile options. Again, consider the top tier and you'll see very well the kind of characters who are the most suited for the style of play the game emphasizes. More than that, though, Smash isn't the kind of game where playing lame can even really work because of how it functions. You're gonna need to go in to get the kill eventually.
This is a weird definition of "Playing lame". Having to connect with a normal to kill doesn't just erase all the zoning a character does up to that point. Even in Melee, Fox, Peach, Jigglypuff are famous for being able to play a nasty zoning game, and every Smash game since Melee has been far less rushdown-focused.

Sonya, Geras, and Erron actually have some of the strongest screen control tools in the game. If there's any problem with zoning in MK11, it's that Sonya can out-zone most other characters despite being a 50/50 up-close monster, and that Erron Black's strongest tourney variation can basically ignore opponent's zoning with scud shot, and that Geras will punish you for a third of your health if you try to play the zoning game against him because fuck that krushing blow. Yet even with all that, we still see a character like Cetrion getting good results.
 
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BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,425
Haven't watched the video yet, but that's really not the main goal of comeback mechanics, at least not anymore. A large part of it is to add excitement to the viewership and hype for the players themselves. I think many mechanics in these games exist for that purpose. X-Factor, V-Trigger, Fatal Blow, Sparking Blast, etc. make the viewers excited and bring swings to a match that make them more interested in watching.

It's the same reason certain character archetypes and playstyles have been deemphasized in modern fighting games, building games around rushdown and getting in on the opponent, because that's what viewers like to watch the most.

FighterZ is pretty much the epitome of all of these issues put together, but people like to bag on SFV for it.
It's a bit more complicated than it just being a viewership thing. Part of it is also fundamental game design, you're trying to avoid

-Lame duck scenarios where the game is basically over, but the players have to play it out and prelong the inevitable
-Slipper slope scenario where the winning player can easily boat race someone to the finish because they gain too much of an edge (character advantage in tag games, meter advantages with a life lead in a game with more defensive neutrals, etc).

The problem then becomes balance. I agree with Daigo in that they aren't needed, but I also don't think for instance Sparking is necessarily that bad of a set up. Something like Danger time in guilty gear is more stupid because of its randomness and the players inability to plan around it. Goes without saying X Factor was 10 times more bullshit. Especially with our lord n savior, and totally fairest character in the world Vergil.

The reason SF gets shit is because SF's neutral has never really been some air dasher 50/50 fest, tag games on the flip side are totally that way. MvC3 is busted as all hell, and Skullgirls rewards setting up resets to steam roll goons. MvC2 is a prolonged scramble.

SFV in its effort to correct the overly defensive nature of 4 and it's absurd OS's over swung the game and gutted shit, it was laggier, they made DP's n reversals not invincible, crouching jabs anti-airing stuff, crush counter+vtrigger (would argue crush counter is the more offensive system out of the two) compromising the thing that makes Street Fighter so ace, which is it's neutral n footsies game.

Ultimately I'd say both are good games, but wildly outclassed by deeper fighting games, but there is a reason SF gets more shit. You don't get to be the face of the genre and make those mistakes. DBFZ benefits from decades now of not getting a good fighting game in that series. But I do think that game warrants a year later discussion on its many short comings like super dash, the lack of air options against super dash, the homogenized nature of characters, the issue that has come from everyone only having one assist, how all the characters being so samey makes balancing the game a bit of a nightmare without basically making the game more dry.

I include all fighting games in this. It doesn't matter that MK11 is less rushdown heavy than MKX was: the game still incentivizes that playstyle the most. The game has maybe 2 legit zoners out of its entire cast right now. The game is still all about the 50/50s up close. Look at all of the top tiers (Sonya, Geras, Erron, and Scorpion) and you'll see exactly what this game values and where the meta revolves around.
To be fair, I think MK's zoning issue is an entirely different thing. It is pretty amazing how badly NRS misunderstands the fireball game in every other 2d fighter.
 
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CO_Andy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
get this man a job at Capcom!

i would be perfectly happy with just EX moves

i hate how most fighters these days make you sit thru cinematics, be it intro sequences or super/ultra/critical arts
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,888
This is a weird definition of "Playing lame". Having to connect with a normal to kill doesn't just erase all the zoning a character does up to that point. Even in Melee, Fox, Peach, Jigglypuff are famous for being able to play a nasty zoning game, and every Smash game since Melee has been far less rushdown-focused.

Sonya, Geras, and Erron actually have some of the strongest screen control tools in the game. If there's any problem with zoning in MK11, it's that Sonya can out-zone most other characters despite being a 50/50 up-close monster, and that Erron Black's strongest tourney variation can basically ignore opponent's zoning with scud shot, and that Geras will punish you for a third of your health if you try to play the zoning game against him because fuck that krushing blow. Yet even with all that, we still see a character like Cetrion getting good results.
I'm talking about character archetypes (and base system mechanics), not tools. A character having a fireball and good mobility complimenting their ability to get in on someone and wreck them isn't what I'm talking about. Win conditions are being evened out, characters have the same goals but just through different means.

It's true, part of the reason those MK11 top tiers are so powerful is not just because they have the oppression up close, but because they can control the neutral with their zoning tools. But they still have that all in common: the same base level, get in there oppression. That's what makes them so good.

Cetrion is the one example, which I mentioned. Skarlet might be the other in that game. Those are exceptions to the rule.

But, basically, fighting games have now become about "getting in." And if you can't get in, keep them out until you get in. Some modern games stand out as exceptions where the cast is still full of a refreshing variety of characters with different win conditions like Under Night In-Birth. But they're becoming fewer. I want games where each character is a game into their own with how distinct they are and how they play so differently. ASW is usually good at this, but FighterZ and BBTAG were not this. Guilty Gear fortunately is, and hopefuly GBFV will be as well.