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Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
It's pretty wild how some people who think of Daenerys as a villain ignore any and all good things she's done. If Daenerys were a man and the idea of "Targaryen madness" didn't exist, there would be little opposition of her online.
ah, the standard of perfection, something women know well.

Repeat that it's just sexism as much as you want. It's because of her executing people in public displays of power and burning prisoners alive for her ego that we're saying she always had signs of violent instability. People and critics cheer on the deaths of male villains in this show.


If you wanna complain about people not liking a character because of sexism, why not defend the actual character people dislike because of sexism; Cersei.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,276
Why does everyone ignore her decision to lock up her dragons after Drogon burnt that child? That was entirely her decision too....

Because it's a pretty timid response that any parent would rightly spit at. Just replace her dragons with dogs, and imagine the public's response to the owner saying they'll make sure they chain their dog up in the future after it just ate a kid.

Ultimately one of Martin's clearest points of view is that every single lord in GoT is flawed, in a way that should really block them from leadership. He clearly hates the concept of a monarchy, and with Dany, the point is that she's entirely unfit to rule even a city (as Barristan, a book character entirely destroyed in the show, tries to point out to her constantly). And in this specific example, monarchs cannot ever be just because they're above the law. Ask yourself what Dany would do to someone who let their dog go eat somebody else's kid; it probably doesn't end well for that person! But the best she can muster is some payment for the kid's parents and a pinky swear that it won't happen again. Why would anyone trust that? All they've heard about is how those dragons kill people. They haven't been pulling kids out of wells and shit.

I don't know. And I guess we'll never know. But the Wall had magic that prevented the undead from crossing. This was established long ago. I'm guessing the books will have something about the horn of Joramund, since there's no Night King in the books anyway.

I strongly suspect it's another aspect of the books that the show disregarded, but I think there's clearly an old pact between ancient Starks and the Others. Hence "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell." The old magic pact must've been violated by the Starks' being deposed, which I assume the Others just immediately felt.

A lot of Dany's butchering in the show (and again, I firmly believe her eventual turn as a despot is very hinted at, but in a much better, gradual way in the books) comes from D&D using her as a catch-all stand-in for any of the magic in the books.

I would say that, in context, MMD's death was as justified as her sabotaging of Drogo's health was.

Maybe to Dany, but this is wild to me as a bystander. She had her burned alive. Yes, she claims to not want her screams, "just her life," but then why not just use a fucking ax? We can use our brains on that one and clearly see that Dany is lying to win the "argument" much like any child would.

Dany is queen to a rapist and a pillager, and one of the victims got some revenge in. So Dany decided that the right move was to torture the rape victim to death by choosing maybe the most brutal execution method she had on-hand. That's like siding with Cersei if she had Olenna Tyrell burned alive for bumping off Joffrey (as a book reader, not sure if that's what happened in the show?).
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
So how about burning someone who lied to you, killed your unborn child, and ousted you from the one position of power you had in your life, whom you kill not out of cruelty or spite or even vengeance but so that you can get something, some form of life out of the death they have wreaked on you?

Probably also not a moral act, but not exactly unreasonable imo.
No it's not reasonable- Mirri was a victim too and suffered just as much if not more than Dany - why is it reasonable to kill her in such a cruel way, especially to make a creature which can only kill? That's not reasonable.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
...

oh okay you're trolling.

Nah not really. In a show filled with child rapists and mass murderers people have still always made out like she's the single worst villain in the show.

Ramsey in the books had his dogs rape people and yet there are people who still swear down she's the worst one.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
I strongly suspect it's another aspect of the books that the show disregarded, but I think there's clearly an old pact between ancient Starks and the Others. Hence "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell." The old magic pact must've been violated by the Starks' being deposed, which I assume the Others just immediately felt.

How can this be true when the WW attacked Will, Gared and the Royce guy before Ned even left Winterfell let alone Theon taking over Winterfell or the Boltons?
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,991
Houston
User Banned (1 week): Hostility and antagonizing other members; dismissing concerns on sexism
Just gonna take this opportunity to say that Era has never been as progressive as it pats itself on the back for, but the reaction of men towards women criticising the sexism of this show (and specifically this season/episode) is fucking disgusting and embarrassing even by this place's standards.
Jfc.

How is this bullshit and your other post in this thread even allowed. Coupled with the fact you posted a few weeks ago that if you have a penis your pretty much not allowed to disagree with your opinion.

We get it, you think the show is sexist and apparently anyone who has enjoyed all seasons of GOT is a misogynistic asshole. But you still watch it, apparently, with the sole purpose of bitching about it on forums and to "inform" the rest of us that the show is sexist, racist, and bigoted.
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
People really seem quick to try and turn this into people defending slavers for some reason. Pointing out she has no problem killing masses of people is not defending slavers.

The whole reason a bunch of People keep clinging to the idea that Dany was some great person is because she started off by killing bad people. Its literally the whole point Tyrion makes in the Episode. She got so full of herself and her saving the world because she started off by killing Bad people who no one would miss or try to defend. The people she rescued turned her into a "God" and her Ego expanded to the point where She was the sole Arbiter of what was right and wrong.

Taking Kings Landing wasn't enough. The War had to continue. They had to liberate Winterfell and all the other cities. Liberate from what? Danys delusional view of the world meant everyone was a slave if they weren't under her.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,466
Maybe to Dany, but this is wild to me as a bystander. She had her burned alive. Yes, she claims to not want her screams, "just her life," but then why not just use a fucking ax? We can use our brains on that one and clearly see that Dany is lying to win the "argument" much like any child would.

Dany is queen to a rapist and a pillager, and one of the victims got some revenge in. So Dany decided that the right move was to torture the rape victim to death by choosing maybe the most brutal execution method she had on-hand. That's like siding with Cersei if she had Olenna Tyrell burned alive for bumping off Joffrey (as a book reader, not sure if that's what happened in the show?).

People are really keen to forget that MMD purposefully killed Daenerys' unborn child by magically twisting it into a monster, huh?

MMD was justified in killing Drogo for the Lhazareen, and for resenting Daenerys' mercy. Daenerys was justified in killing MMD for the murder of her unborn child.

Well, again, she wanted to break the wheel and make the world better but she did it with fire and blood. No one criticizes Tywin, Robb, etc because they weren't parading around that message.

Blame the untalented writers for coming up with stupid phrases.
 

valeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
454
The original post is wordy without saying a whole lot - Dany was set up to be this from day 1, by GRRM and D&D. Her turning is not a surprise.

I don't understand criticism of the plot points. I do understand criticism of the execution, however, as I think it could've been done with a lot more finesse.

Saying it's sexist means the books are inherently sexist; and thus it doesn't make sense that you're getting upset over this one particular plot, and not the entirety of the series.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,712
Dany as a ruthless dictator who killed anyone in her way innocent or otherwise was never a surprising turn of events for me. She was pretty much always like that once she obtained weapons of mass destruction. People bought into her cause she was killing evil people but for Dany all of the worship and notions of birthrate and destiny, coupled with dragons
grew her messiah complex to the point where she thought whatever actions she takes must always be just and good. People who disagree are wrong and thus are targets to become dragon food. So yeah, it wouldn't take much for her to grow her list of who to burn beyond easy targets like slavers. Once she invades Westeros that list has to grow, she's now dealing with common people who may not want her instead of slaves who worshipped her, she's dealing with far more grey character or even good characters instead of super devil slavemasters.

The only aspect I can't wrap my head around is her going out of her way to kill innocent people after the city had unconditionally surrendered. There's no political gain, fear had already been achieved and then some, and she almost fucking let Cersei escape.

The only thing that makes sense is pure malice or pure madness. Pure malice against the people of King's Landing wasn't built up well enough and madness is a cheap copout. Her talk to Jon about it all being Cersei's fault didn't help, that was nothing was but pure delusion. Her blaming the people of KLs for everything cause they weren't like the slaves of Essos needed more time to stew.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I think you have a grossly idealistic and almost white washed view of her character.

She doesn't colonise and conquer to end slavery (Westeros doesn't even have any), instead she conquers and colonises because she is a power hungry dictator who believes it is her birthright or destiny to be Queen of all seven kingdoms. The ending of slavery is a by product or side venture of her conquest, not the core motivation, which is simply to be the all powerful ruler, as her father once was. That is why she still chose to take her conquest to Westeros (a place without slavery), and why she doesn't care if Jon Snow is actually the true heir (thus destroying her birthright argument). In truth, she has no right to take other people's lands by force and through blood and fire.

Also, you say she only killed evil people, but that too is BS. If she attacked the US tomorrow in order to colonise and conquer it, say on the basis that she wanted to rid the US of corruption and prevent the country from future warmongering (eg preventing things like the Iraq war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people), you and millions of others would likely fight her in war too. You wouldn't necessarily understand or accept her virtues or motivations, you'd simply view her as a foreign aggressor and warmonger, and feel that the populace of your country should be the ones to push and challenge change, not some foreign invader or coloniser through war and murder.

That transcends to thousands of the soldiers she's killed in her subsequent conquests and battles, soldiers who were just following the orders of their leaders, and/or who believed they were simply defending their lands. These soldiers would have had families, children etc, who's lives will have been turned upside down or ruined forever.

Anyway, I'm just going to quote this again.

This is what gets me about the whole "Break the Wheel thing". A lot of people point to it as evidence of Dany being good, but it is literally neoliberalism. She went to a different nation and brought her weapons of mass destruction to free a backwards people from "tyrants". People bought that justification and thought it was OK, and I suspect a lot of it (for Americans at least) has to do with the fact that it is what the US does constantly. We were taught to think that was OK.

Here's the truth though, Dany was never going to break the wheel because she IS the wheel. She didn't have to come to Westeros with her dragons. She came there because at her core, she's no different from her spiteful and violent brother. She thinks she is owed something that isn't hers because of who she was born to and she violently lashed out at the people who feared and despised her. What her arc shows is that there is no benevolence in using warfare to "free" people, that people like Dany, self-made "liberators" of violent regimes are themselves violent, spiteful, and evil people at their cores.

Truth is, lots of people supported, overly invested in and loved a character who was actually always a bad guy, it's just the good things she did blindsided many to the bad. People were still ultimately always supporting a warmongering, white saviour conquerer.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I think you have a grossly idealistic and almost white washed view of her character.

She doesn't colonise and conquer to end slavery (Westeros doesn't even have any), instead she conquers and colonises because she is a power hungry dictator who believes it is her birthright or destiny to be Queen of all seven kingdoms. The ending of slavery is a by product or side venture of her conquest, not the core motivation, which is simply to be the all powerful ruler, as her father once was. That is why she still chose to take her conquest to Westeros (a place without slavery), and why she doesn't care if Jon Snow is actually the true heir (thus destroying her birthright argument). In truth, she has no right to take other people's lands by force and through blood and fire.

Also, you say she only killed evil people, but that too is BS. If she attacked the US tomorrow in order to colonise and conquer it, say on the basis that she wanted to rid the US of corruption and prevent the country from future warmongering (eg preventing things like the Iraq war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people), you and millions of others would likely fight her in war too. You wouldn't necessarily understand or accept her virtues or motivations, you'd simply view her as a foreign aggressor and warmonger, and feel that the populace of your country should be the ones to push and challenge change, not some foreign invader or coloniser through war and murder.

That transcends to thousands of the soldiers she's killed in her subsequent conquests and battles, soldiers who were just following the orders of their leaders, and/or who believed they were simply defending their lands. These soldiers would have had families, children etc, who's lives will have been turned upside down or ruined forever.

Anyway, I'm just going to quote this again.



Truth is, lots of people supported, overly invested in and loved a character who was actually always a bad guy, it's just the good things she did blindsided many to the bad. People were still ultimately always supporting a warmongering, white saviour conquerer.
That's the sum total of it, yes.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,097
Sydney
The Mirri incident was Martin long ago setting up that Dany's ambition was a recipe for tragedy.

Drogo only attacked Mirri's people to get the cash to sail across the Narrow Sea, which he was only doing because of her ambition.

Mirri's throwing back in her life that she had already been gang raped and her life meant nothing to her with all else taken away is a pretty strong argument from Martin micro mercy means nothing against macro ambition.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
Ultimately one of Martin's clearest points of view is that every single lord in GoT is flawed, in a way that should really block them from leadership. He clearly hates the concept of a monarchy, and with Dany, the point is that she's entirely unfit to rule even a city (as Barristan, a book character entirely destroyed in the show, tries to point out to her constantly).
Because the show isn't supposed to be about the individuals in the first place.

It's about society, what it does to people, how it frames how we view ourselves and those around us, and what the norms and violation of those norms does to individual actors writ large.

Except in the last two seasons whene it's about "all your friends and their adventures".

Dany is important because she is in her words rebelling against the society that cast out her family but through her actions is implicitly not doing anything to dismantle society for the better. She just centralizes it around her like you said, it's a crafted metaphor for "nation building" and the lies that come with it, US imperialism, the heft of power and what those in power in a society that's been conquered will do to remain in power while keeping the powerless under heel through the conquerors.

She's never, at any point, painted as a savior by society, but by herself. Aside from the "white savior" scene we're shown and told repeatedly that she doesn't actually do anything meaningful to dismantle the society in which they live and replace it with a better one. She just takes on element of it and recodifies it.

It's why we never get a POV chapter of smallfolk with her as the focus. Because it's explicit through her alliances and crafting in Meereen that she is perceived as just "another thing to deal with".

And that's it, yes, slavery is bad, she's doing the right thing abolishing it, but that's all she does.

There's no "and then" and broad structural generational changes, society foundationally remains the same.

Which is why society rejects her, she, a foreign power, has come in and told them that their way of life is wrong and that she, the enlightened foreigner, will change everything and make it better. While also keeping literally the entire power structure of society as was before in power because that's to her benefit towards her "real" goal of conquering Westeros and claiming her birthright.

Society cannot change to build her superstructure, she has her views of what a society is and refuses to delegate that to what society actually is and how she can best manage it. Martin is very clear that all of these people should not be rulers because they are bad at it and the way that society has evolved means that monarchs are far more harmful than good as we progress through what is a society on the verge of collapse.

She doesn't need to be perfect to be a genuine "breaker" of the wheel of power. To unmake and rebuild in an egalitarian image where there is still ostensible power structures but things are better, the structures more amenable to the society in which they reside. But she doesn't do that, everything is simply what she believes to be right.

She doesn't free the Unsullied despite knowing that using them is wrong because it's in her self interest to do so. Which under the society she functions within is a normal and rational choice in that position, but it goes against her perception and internal coda. They are, functionally, her personal slave army.

She doesn't dismantle the nobles of Meereen and impose a new structure, a new cycle, because she doesn't understand their society and is thus completely unable to solidify her power which drives her anger and resentment, which is why she stays. She can't just plop someone on the throne and leave because it's a direct assent against HER power, against her individual mandate as Empress.

Society doesn't change unless you do as is stated repeatedly in the books, "Rip it up, root and stem".

It's why the North refuses to bend the knee to the Bolton's, it's why the people in Kings Landing don't really care which pompous dink sits on the throne until Young Griff comes along and promises them better material conditions.

Society is the primary actor, the motivator, the characters agency goes in so far as society allows them, which is fine, that makes them human, their flaws and issues.

But Dany was never an explicit liberator and freer of the oppressed because it is not in her interests to consolidate her power, from her position in society, to do so.

But she does some token things because her morality and sense of self thinks that it's what a proper society should do without realizing the ramifications of it. Meereen teaches her that such changes don't matter if you don't change society around it, but in the show and probably in the books, what she takes from it is a personal insult to her, that they are not rejecting society, they are rejecting her benevolence.

Which would have worked in the show if they had done that over 3-4 seasons instead of 20 minutes. Foreshadowing is not character development, I 100000% agree with that statement, but that's why the natural development towards this makes sense and is something to build, but is unworkable when presented as a "twist" for the sake of cheap drama.

I get it, killing slavers isn't a bad thing (rightfully so) in modern context, which is why we're shown it in the books, because Martin uses modern sensibilities to make things feel more natural to the reader and because it's a fantasy story so you don't need to be "historically accurate". But the slavers were also the benchmark of their society, the underpinning, and she killed a lot in a rampant display of power to demonstrate her ferocity and martial ability, but she didn't "pull them up root and stem" after that display, which left her with a society just like it was before, just as stratified as it was before, and just as unequal as it was before.

That's my opinion on it and what her character represents in the narrative, anyway. She's flawed, trying to do the good thing while satisfying herself, it makes her human, it makes her a compelling character, it's why she's so interesting. But I don't think we need to ascribe her values and morality that she clearly doesn't represent because no monarchs in the series represent the "ideals" to which they profess such great importance. It's why Sansa's conversations with the Hound about the nature of the "true Knight" are Martin all but telling the audience that these are pretty ideals, but that they are incompatible with the form of power that manifests from the pursuit of them. We "root" for her because her ambitions and desires are the clearest and many interpret them to be the most rooted in altruism and a more egalitarian sensibility. Her flaws and desire for power doesn't remove that.
 
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Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,276
BTW, lets not ignore that if Dany was this bizarre Westerosi superman-figure that fixed everything and made no wrong choices, they'd just criticize her for being too perfect and ruining the dark nature of the ASoIaF world. The 'mary sue' argument, essentially.

Well, no, her character is really great in the books. She's just not a "good guy." People have got to get past this idea that protagonists in things are always, 100%, meant to be rooted for. Sometimes you follow bad people! Not every protag is Captain America!

In fact, I'd argue in GoT(and I mean the first book here) that there are no heroes. Ned is the closest, but his stupid adherence to his morals gets a lot of people killed and fucks up a whole lot more for everyone involved. Only later do some of the characters develop into characters one can root for (who also rise to the level of protags; Sansa is my big example where she's arguably not relevant to the plot for the first book, but later becomes one of the best characters, male or female, in the series).
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
I don't think men can even start to relate to the feeling many women such as myself felt, in front of Daenerys as a character, able to break her own chains, and shape her own destiny in spite of everything that she suffered through, most of which was 95% due to her gender, aka sexism. She earnestly tried to do good and to uplift people, albeit not always perfectly, but her vision was absolutely not a bad one, nor something I couldn't rally behind, quite the contrary.

Daenerys will always have that special place in my heart, and I don't care if people want to feel smart saying "We AlWAyS KnEw ShE WaS GoNnA BeCoMe mAd SiNcE 1St EpIsOdE oF sEaSoN oNe!!11!" good for you smartass, you're still totally and emphatically missing the point, and bring nothing of value to the discussion, move along. Also it's not because GRRM had this Mad Queen plot for her all along, that it suddenly becomes immune to criticism. GRRM can be a sexist uninspired writer as well, not just D&D.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,757
Toronto, ON
The writing here was so awful. I could see how the character gets to this point but it's executed without a trace of thoughtfulness or emotional depth. Of all the characters that were inexplicably ruined by this final season, Dany was done the dirtiest. Incredibly lazy and a huge disservice to such a compelling figure. What a disaster.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
I think you have a grossly idealistic and almost white washed view of her character.

She doesn't colonise and conquer to end slavery (Westeros doesn't even have any), instead she conquers and colonises because she is a power hungry dictator who believes it is her birthright or destiny to be Queen of all seven kingdoms. The ending of slavery is a by product or side venture of her conquest, not the core motivation, which is simply to be the all powerful ruler, as her father once was. That is why she still chose to take her conquest to Westeros (a place without slavery), and why she doesn't care if Jon Snow is actually the true heir (thus destroying her birthright argument). In truth, she has no right to take other people's lands by force and through blood and fire.

Also, you say she only killed evil people, but that too is BS. If she attacked the US tomorrow in order to colonise and conquer it, say on the basis that she wanted to rid the US of corruption and prevent the country from future warmongering (eg preventing things like the Iraq war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people), you and millions of others would likely fight her in war too. You wouldn't necessarily understand or accept her virtues or motivations, you'd simply view her as a foreign aggressor and warmonger, and feel that the populace of your country should be the ones to push and challenge change, not some foreign invader or coloniser through war and murder.

That transcends to thousands of the soldiers she's killed in her subsequent conquests and battles, soldiers who were just following the orders of their leaders, and/or who believed they were simply defending their lands. These soldiers would have had families, children etc, who's lives will have been turned upside down or ruined forever.

Anyway, I'm just going to quote this again.



Truth is, lots of people supported, overly invested in and loved a character who was actually always a bad guy, it's just the good things she did blindsided many to the bad. People were still ultimately always supporting a warmongering, white saviour conquerer.


I disagree. This might be Dany's end game but it's not fair to paint her as an evil tyrant from day one. Dany feels empathy and sympathy for people. From the slaves she encounters to every day people she sees suffering under barbaric rulers. More than most of the POV characters we meet, who wouldn't care to give a lowborn person the dirt off of the bottom of their show.

Dany genuinely wanted to do good, but what is the old saying? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think that is the point of Dany. She wants to do good but feels that peaceful methods aren't working for her so she embraces fire and blood.

Not out of evilness like her father but because she feels it's the only way to achieve her goals. I think much like Yara and grey worm still argued her cause on the show, opinion will be divided in the books as well. Some will see her as a liberator and savior, others a conqueror.

Dany represents American imperialism (not from the view of the Government, who didn't have pure intentions when invading other countries in the name of "peace and freedom")but the regular folks who genuinely believed that America was making a difference in the world and helping to save the countries they invaded from Communism.

She wasn't always actually a bad guy, this is just where her story leads.
 

The Last Laugh

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Dec 31, 2018
1,440
If I was Disney I would fire D&D.

If they wanted to kill Dany there was no need to turn her into Hitler. GoT was never about the big bad guy and turning Dany into one was a major departure from the themes of game of thrones.

They could have dealt with Dany a whole bunch of clever more nuance ways than the approach they took.
Unless it was not their say. Alot of this WILL come back to GRRM and while people deny it right now when the books come it is what it is
 

Doober

Banned
Jun 10, 2018
4,295
I don't think men can even start to relate to the feeling many women such as myself felt, in front of Daenerys as a character, able to break her own chains, and shape her own destiny in spite of everything that she suffered through, most of which was 95% due to her gender, aka sexism. She earnestly tried to do good and to uplift people, albeit not always perfectly, but her vision was absolutely not a bad one, nor something I couldn't rally behind, quite the contrary.

Daenerys will always have that special place in my heart, and I don't care if people want to feel smart saying "We AlWAyS KnEw ShE WaS GoNnA BeCoMe mAd SiNcE 1St EpIsOdE oF sEaSoN oNe!!11!" good for you smartass, you're still totally and emphatically missing the point, and bring nothing of value to the discussion, move along. Also it's not because GRRM had this Mad Queen plot for her all along, that it suddenly becomes immune to criticism. GRRM can be a sexist uninspired writer as well, not just D&D.

Most everyone here agrees that her flip in the show was nonsensical and unearned, so I don't know what you mean by, "immune from criticism."

It just feels like you're angry because she didn't WIN.
 
OP
OP
BDS

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
I don't think men can even start to relate to the feeling many women such as myself felt, in front of Daenerys as a character, able to break her own chains, and shape her own destiny in spite of everything that she suffered through, most of which was 95% due to her gender, aka sexism. She earnestly tried to do good and to uplift people, albeit not always perfectly, but her vision was absolutely not a bad one, nor something I couldn't rally behind, quite the contrary.

Daenerys will always have that special place in my heart, and I don't care if people want to feel smart saying "We AlWAyS KnEw ShE WaS GoNnA BeCoMe mAd SiNcE 1St EpIsOdE oF sEaSoN oNe!!11!" good for you smartass, you're still totally and emphatically missing the point, and bring nothing of value to the discussion, move along. Also it's not because GRRM had this Mad Queen plot for her all along, that it suddenly becomes immune to criticism. GRRM can be a sexist uninspired writer as well, not just D&D.

This.
 

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
Toronto
I was never a fan of Danny. Even hoping at times that she would be killed off during the earlier seasons because of how pointless and how boring her scenes were in the grand scheme of things.

But at the same time, it still felt like a gigantic slap in the face what they did to her character. You bring them along that far. Spend all this time showcasing their morals and what they stand for and you just kick it to the curb at the last minute and completely change the character for no reason. It makes zero sense at all and makes the first 1-6 Seasons feel more pointless because her arc went nowhere.
 
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m_shortpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,205
I do believe that this was always the outcome that GRRM had in mind. However, the execution of this I will agree is the probably the laziest and sloppiest piece of writing I've ever seen in my life.
 
Oct 29, 2017
6,251
At no point in time was her "break the wheel" speech entailing abolishing the system. She only sought to preserve it with herself as its figurehead.

This is why the way that they handled her descent into madness was shit, not that it happened.

Her desire to "break the wheel" was never fleshed out in any meaningful way. She was just stopping the wheel on the Targaryens again, like Tyrion said. A Targaryen invader with three dragons at her back taking the Iron Throne with fire and blood is quite literally the opposite of "breaking the wheel". If anything it was simply turning it backwards. And her push to become queen in Westeros and reclaim her birthright--a birthright she got from a murder-rapist who was eventually overthrown--was driven by the same unearned sense of highborn entitlement that was the root cause of Westeros's problems in the first place.

If we're going to frame Dany's character arc in political terms, she was always more of a colonizer than a revolutionary. She believes that destiny and hundreds of years of inbreeding have granted her the duty of reshaping the world around her as she saw fit--and the right to slaughter anyone who dared to question her or challenge her providence. It's not surprising, really; why wouldn't you have a messiah complex when you survived walking into a fire, brought back dragons for the first time in a century, and have been the focal point of several myths and legends across multiple cultures? When you are surrounded by people constantly telling you that you are the last, best chance to build a better world? Plus, as the OP points out, her enemies through most of the series have been people that deserved to be overthrown and destroyed--slave owners, marauding khals, Cersei, and so on. It was easy to handwave any brutality when it was perpetrated on scum like that.

And it was that very belief in herself and the righteousness of her quest for the throne that sustained her as she went through all of the horrors she endured--avoiding Robert's assassins, Viserys's abuse, Khal Drogo raping her repeatedly, nearly starving to death in the Red Waste, and so on. There were plenty of times during the story that her faith was all she had. And when she was finally back in Westeros, the Night King and Tyrion's shitty advice saw her lose half her army, most of her allies, and several people she loved like family--all within striking distance of her final goal. Not to mention how the man she fell in love with had a stronger claim to the throne than her OR Viserys, meaning the whole basis of her claim--already flimsy enough given how shit Aerys II was--didn't even exist.

There was plenty of grist for making the Mad Queen turn believable. David and Dan's awful handling of the last 2 seasons--and her final mental break, specifically--doesn't change that. That's why I was always leery of people looking up to her IRL to begin with.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,174
I'm not a regular watcher but it's really irking me how people use Dany all the time. Daenerys as a name seems to be an obvious attempt to exotify and maybe even code some foreigness to the character, and Dany erases all that. It would be like saying Kelly instead of Khaleesi.
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
From Day one Dany was a villain. She did some good deeds along the way paving her road to hell but it doesn't change her motivation from day one was Power and the desire to wield it over all. I am a Targaryen so bow down everyone and worship me.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I disagree. This might be Dany's end game but it's not fair to paint her as an evil tyrant from day one. Dany feels empathy and sympathy for people. From the slaves she encounters to every day people she sees suffering under barbaric rulers. More than most of the POV characters we meet, who wouldn't care to give a lowborn person the dirt off of the bottom of their show.

Dany genuinely wanted to do good, but what is the old saying? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think that is the point of Dany. She wants to do good but feels that peaceful methods aren't working for her so she embraces fire and blood.

Not out of evilness like her father but because she feels it's the only way to achieve her goals. I think much like Yara and grey worm still argued her cause on the show, opinion will be divided in the books as well. Some will see her as a liberator and savior, others a conqueror.

Dany represents American imperialism (not from the view of the Government, who didn't have pure intentions when invading other countries in the name of "peace and freedom")but the regular folks who genuinely believed that America was making a difference in the world and helping to save the countries they invaded from Communism.

She wasn't always actually a bad guy, this is just where her story leads.

I'm not saying she didn't have some good intentions or didn't do good along the way, simply that it wasn't her primary motivation and that she had no right to in the first place, that she was still ultimately a warmongering coloniser or conquerer who stole power and land through force, blood and fire.

And I'm glad you brought up American Emperialism, because I think that is part of why some so easily support her, but here's the thing, I detest so many aspects of American imperialism. It is something that has led to the loss of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, decimated and destabilised entire regions, led to the upheaval of certain societies and systems of power or rule, led to civil wars, puppet governments, mass destruction, crumbling of infrastructure, huge loss of resources to foreign powers and everything else. Very rarely does American foreign policy or "liberation" work out well, instead brown people just suffer for it.

Daenerys in some ways is like an allegory to this, and the dragons are the US equivalent of her military might or weapons of mass destruction. She sees herself as a liberator of sorts, when in actually she isn't. To so many in these other lands, she's just a power hungry warmongering conquerer, hence so many soldiers give up their lives fighting against her, against what they believe to be nothing more than a foreign invading tyrant, who priorities power and rule above all else, and they would be right or fair in sharing that belief.
 
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Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
It just feels like you're angry because she didn't WIN.

You're still missing the point and projecting without knowing anything about me in the first place. There are countless of ways to end her arc without having to resort to the Mad Queen trope, without making her a tyrant, AND without making her win. I'm not angry because she didn't win, I'm angry because her arc is nowhere near satisfactory, it's just plain crap and uninspired. And that's the tea on that.
 

LukeOP

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,749
This is why the way that they handled her descent into madness was shit, not that it happened.

Her desire to "break the wheel" was never fleshed out in any meaningful way. She was just stopping the wheel on the Targaryens again, like Tyrion said. A Targaryen invader with three dragons at her back taking the Iron Throne with fire and blood is quite literally the opposite of "breaking the wheel". If anything it was simply turning it backwards. And her push to become queen in Westeros and reclaim her birthright--a birthright she got from a murder-rapist who was eventually overthrown--was driven by the same unearned sense of highborn entitlement that was the root cause of Westeros's problems in the first place.

If we're going to frame Dany's character arc in political terms, she was always more of a colonizer than a revolutionary. She believes that destiny and hundreds of years of inbreeding have granted her the duty of reshaping the world around her as she saw fit--and the right to slaughter anyone who dared to question her or challenge her providence. It's not surprising, really; why wouldn't you have a messiah complex when you survived walking into a fire, brought back dragons for the first time in a century, and have been the focal point of several myths and legends across multiple cultures? When you are surrounded by people constantly telling you that you are the last, best chance to build a better world? Plus, as the OP points out, her enemies through most of the series have been people that deserved to be overthrown and destroyed--slave owners, marauding khals, Cersei, and so on. It was easy to handwave any brutality when it was perpetrated on scum like that.

And it was that very belief in herself and the righteousness of her quest for the throne that sustained her as she went through all of the horrors she endured--avoiding Robert's assassins, Viserys's abuse, Khal Drogo raping her repeatedly, nearly starving to death in the Red Waste, and so on. There were plenty of times during the story that her faith was all she had. And when she was finally back in Westeros, the Night King and Tyrion's shitty advice saw her lose half her army, most of her allies, and several people she loved like family--all within striking distance of her final goal. Not to mention how the man she fell in love with had a stronger claim to the throne than her OR Viserys, meaning the whole basis of her claim--already flimsy enough given how shit Aerys II was--didn't even exist.

There was plenty of grist for making the Mad Queen turn believable. David and Dan's awful handling of the last 2 seasons--and her final mental break, specifically--doesn't change that. That's why I was always leery of people looking up to her IRL to begin with.

Just one thing, you are glossing over prophecies and trials that made Dany convinced she deserves the Throne. It's not like she wanted the throne from the get go.
 

Deleted member 32101

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 9, 2017
335
I think you have a grossly idealistic and almost white washed view of her character.

She doesn't colonise and conquer to end slavery (Westeros doesn't even have any), instead she conquers and colonises because she is a power hungry dictator who believes it is her birthright or destiny to be Queen of all seven kingdoms. The ending of slavery is a by product or side venture of her conquest, not the core motivation, which is simply to be the all powerful ruler, as her father once was. That is why she still chose to take her conquest to Westeros (a place without slavery), and why she doesn't care if Jon Snow is actually the true heir (thus destroying her birthright argument). In truth, she has no right to take other people's lands by force and through blood and fire.

Also, you say she only killed evil people, but that too is BS. If she attacked the US tomorrow in order to colonise and conquer it, say on the basis that she wanted to rid the US of corruption and prevent the country from future warmongering (eg preventing things like the Iraq war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people), you and millions of others would likely fight her in war too. You wouldn't necessarily understand or accept her virtues or motivations, you'd simply view her as a foreign aggressor and warmonger, and feel that the populace of your country should be the ones to push and challenge change, not some foreign invader or coloniser through war and murder.

That transcends to thousands of the soldiers she's killed in her subsequent conquests and battles, soldiers who were just following the orders of their leaders, and/or who believed they were simply defending their lands. These soldiers would have had families, children etc, who's lives will have been turned upside down or ruined forever.

Anyway, I'm just going to quote this again.



Truth is, lots of people supported, overly invested in and loved a character who was actually always a bad guy, it's just the good things she did blindsided many to the bad. People were still ultimately always supporting a warmongering, white saviour conquerer.


That pretty much says it all.
 

Vestal

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,297
Tampa FL
I don't think men can even start to relate to the feeling many women such as myself felt, in front of Daenerys as a character, able to break her own chains, and shape her own destiny in spite of everything that she suffered through, most of which was 95% due to her gender, aka sexism. She earnestly tried to do good and to uplift people, albeit not always perfectly, but her vision was absolutely not a bad one, nor something I couldn't rally behind, quite the contrary.

Daenerys will always have that special place in my heart, and I don't care if people want to feel smart saying "We AlWAyS KnEw ShE WaS GoNnA BeCoMe mAd SiNcE 1St EpIsOdE oF sEaSoN oNe!!11!" good for you smartass, you're still totally and emphatically missing the point, and bring nothing of value to the discussion, move along. Also it's not because GRRM had this Mad Queen plot for her all along, that it suddenly becomes immune to criticism. GRRM can be a sexist uninspired writer as well, not just D&D.

Why should a female character be excused/excluded from being evil because the writers or directors are men? I would argue that Sansas story arc is much more fulfilling from a females persective (I say this not as a woman, but after discussing the show with various female friends and their attachment to the characters and how the viewed them)

99% of the evil seen in GOT stems from the decision of men anyways, not women. The whole political plot line of the entire series was based on a lie perpetrated by Robert Baratheon and his cohorts, that while their intentions were "just" mad king and all, they leveraged a lie in order to usurp the entire kingdom. The primary evil deed in all of GOT, the 1 that started it all was also made by a man in Little Finger. Why can't both men and women be evil and we just don't read more into it other than hey either or can be bad.

So you have your heroins in:
Sansa
Arya
Yara
Lady Tarth
Kat
Ygritte
Lady Mormount

Your heroes:
Jon
Bran
Tyrion
Podrick and his magic cock
Samwell
Ned

Then you move on to shades of grey and just pure evil.

The list goes on, but you get what I am saying.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,276
How can this be true when the WW attacked Will, Gared and the Royce guy before Ned even left Winterfell let alone Theon taking over Winterfell or the Boltons?

Some kinda prophecy I guess. They started making moves ahead of basically everything, so something prompted it.

People are really keen to forget that MMD purposefully killed Daenerys' unborn child by magically twisting it into a monster, huh?

MMD was justified in killing Drogo for the Lhazareen, and for resenting Daenerys' mercy. Daenerys was justified in killing MMD for the murder of her unborn child.

I do not in any way think she is justified for having a rape victim burned alive. She certainly can think that from her perspective, but I don't see why I should just automatically take her side is such a heinous decision.
 

NSESN

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,301
I don't think men can even start to relate to the feeling many women such as myself felt, in front of Daenerys as a character, able to break her own chains, and shape her own destiny in spite of everything that she suffered through, most of which was 95% due to her gender, aka sexism. She earnestly tried to do good and to uplift people, albeit not always perfectly, but her vision was absolutely not a bad one, nor something I couldn't rally behind, quite the contrary.

Daenerys will always have that special place in my heart, and I don't care if people want to feel smart saying "We AlWAyS KnEw ShE WaS GoNnA BeCoMe mAd SiNcE 1St EpIsOdE oF sEaSoN oNe!!11!" good for you smartass, you're still totally and emphatically missing the point, and bring nothing of value to the discussion, move along. Also it's not because GRRM had this Mad Queen plot for her all along, that it suddenly becomes immune to criticism. GRRM can be a sexist uninspired writer as well, not just D&D.
Of course I can't relate to how a woman feel about this. But that doesn't mean my opinion is worthless about the matter because of my gender.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,757
Toronto, ON
I'm not a regular watcher but it's really irking me how people use Dany all the time. Daenerys as a name seems to be an obvious attempt to exotify and maybe even code some foreigness to the character, and Dany erases all that. It would be like saying Kelly instead of Khaleesi.

The characters on the show have used "Dany" as an affectionate nickname.

Kind of bizarre you'd be irked by something like this when, by your own admission, you don't regularly watch the show and have no idea where it comes from. Such a random and un-generous reading.
 
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The Last Laugh

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Dec 31, 2018
1,440
I'm not a regular watcher but it's really irking me how people use Dany all the time. Daenerys as a name seems to be an obvious attempt to exotify and maybe even code some foreigness to the character, and Dany erases all that. It would be like saying Kelly instead of Khaleesi.
If you were a regular watcher you would know that is is what Jon and others called her and not some attempt by people to remove anything.
 

janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,127
Austin, TX
There's a lot of parallels with LOTR and this series. the iron throne inevitably kinda became like the ring or power, corrupting anyone who touches it or has it. Dany in a lot of ways is like... Gollum? A life-long obsession. Lol. The throne even gets melted into lava, a lot like how the ring gets destroyed.

In the end I still really like Dany and her whole story. Now I just really want to read the rest of the books and see how GRRM tackles this, which I'm sure he'll do a lot more gracefully.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I'm not a regular watcher but it's really irking me how people use Dany all the time. Daenerys as a name seems to be an obvious attempt to exotify and maybe even code some foreigness to the character, and Dany erases all that. It would be like saying Kelly instead of Khaleesi.

The characters on the show called her Dany. But more improtantly Dany is much, much easier to spell than Daenerys.
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
ok

but it makes all those posts that were like "if u thought this would be happi ending u werent paying attention lul" a little dumb, doesn't it
Not happy in the sense that any one of the people that should be on the throne isn't. Yes, Jon being in the throne would have been cliche, but he's literally the only player in the entire series that was built up to and deserves to.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
Where is this Dany = American imperialism coming from? So many people have brought it up, where did this idea originate? Imperialism has existed long before the US has, so why does it have to be American imperialism? Is thinking it has to be that in itself American imperialism? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

ryseing

Bought courtside tickets just to read a book.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,546
For lovers
I'm not a regular watcher but it's really irking me how people use Dany all the time. Daenerys as a name seems to be an obvious attempt to exotify and maybe even code some foreigness to the character, and Dany erases all that. It would be like saying Kelly instead of Khaleesi.

Her book POVs refer to her as Dany. Show watchers picked up on that.
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
I can only wonder where all these "I KNEW HE WAS MAD ALL ALONG" people would be now, had Dany been a man, albeit an oppressed one with circumstances akin to Dany's (although can't be replicated, but imagine dynamics of race instead of genders). Somehow I feel like the perception of her actions is seen with a higher scrutiny by some (surprisingly male) viewers here, and with far lesser margin for errors, than it would have been had she been a man. People forgave a lot of shit many "good" male characters did, but when it comes to Dany, nah, the writing was on the wall all along, "we been knew that she was cray". Sure. Cool.

Give me a fucking break, y'all transparent as hell right now.
 
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jdstorm

Member
Jan 6, 2018
7,563
Great OP BDS

In many ways this Game of Thrones ending feels a lot like How I Met Your Mother. The writers knew the start and the end of the story but as they navigated the journey the path changed, characters changed almost entirely "cough Jamie Lannister Cough" and that effected the intended ending.

Characters either got too static and locked into the person they were at the start (Jamie, Tyrion ect) or Character journeys/Motivations changed entirely (Euron, Hound, Jon, Sansa)

For most of these characters these replacement points impacted/changed the endings. how Much the ending was changed remains to be seen, however I suspect it was likely fairly similar to Martins ending due to the known outcry/outrage that would exist if characters didn't reach the same ish end point.

....

On Dany being the Hero. I disagree, you have to remember with game of thrones it's a shell game, the trick isn't that it isn't a traditional fantasy story, it's that personality and audience expectations. I think Dany being one of the ultimate villains is pure Martin. Where this arc gets upset is in the payoff. Great villains are best as foils for the heroes of the story and are used to contrast the flaws/strengths of the hero. Game of Thrones does this with Cersi/Dany where Dany takes on the role of the Hero.

However in ASOIAF Dany's subversion is different. She's the shadow to the series real female lead. Arya Stark. Both lose their parents, homes and families. Both are killers, Dany for Pius reasons Arya for practical. (GRRM loves his practical characters) and their journeys are changing them. Arya into an Assasin, Dany into a Dictator. Arya will reject this transformation, With Dany that theory you posted seems about right. With a few exceptions.

I could go on but this is way to long already

Essentially
Dany doesn't look bad because Cersi is worse (Chaotic evil vs Lawful evil) with good intentions.

Once Cersi is out of the picture Dany looks a lot worse compared to Arya and Sansa. Problem is Cersi surviving until the last episode hurts Danys arc. (And everything else in that Dany theory link)
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Where is this Dany = American imperialism coming from? So many people have brought it up, where did this idea originate? Imperialism has existed long before the US has, so why does it have to be American imperialism? Is thinking it has to be that in itself American imperialism? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think because it is based in the present, and still relevant to current geopolitics, culture and military campaigns. The US literally framed itself as the liberator in the recent Iraq war, one that ousted one tyrant (of their own making), but in its wake led to the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people and the destabilisation of the entire region.

But you are right, it isn't just specific to American imperialism, instead western imperialism or imperialism in general. Eg the (often white) saviour coloniser or invading liberator, who ironically forces change, steals land/resources or rules through blood, war and destruction, and leaves lasting damage in the wake.
 
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Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I can only wonder where all these "I KNEW HE WAS MAD ALL ALONG" people would be now, had Dany been a man, albeit an oppressed one with circumstances akin to Dany's (although can't be replicated, but imagine dynamics of race instead of genders). Somehow I feel like the perception of her actions is seen with a higher scrutiny by some (surprisingly male) viewers here, and with far lesser margin for errors, than it would have been had she been a man. People forgave a lot of shit many "good" characters did, but when it comes to Dany, nah, the writing was on the wall all along, "we been knew". Sure.

Give me a fucking break, y'all transparent as hell right now.

The writing was very much on the wall and GRRM has never tried to hide that this is the intent for Dany's character to go.

He by all accounts apparently told D&D this is what her character would end up doing. This is the character he and the show have even setting up.

If you have a character that takes joy in seeing people killed, executes slaves publically for defying her laws as a show of power, and shows no mercy to prisoners by burning them alive and feeding them to dragons, it's not sexist to think they probbaly aren't as nice as they enthusiastically tell their armes that include hordes of Dothraki rapists.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,712
The handling of how Dany burned MMD is how the burning of KLs should have been handled.

Dany burned MMD out of malice, Dany thought she was entitled to MMDs loyalty/thankfulness for saving/liberating her but that didn't matter. MMD didn't want Dany, she was already broken and took out her anger on Drogo with the side effect killing Dany's child. Dany responded in kind with malice and burned her alive.

I certainly wouldn't categorize what Dany did as right or just, but you understand why she did it, you know where that anger came from.

Her hatred and snapping at the people of KLs seemed like it came out of nowhere. They had all the foreshadowing and tools(her friends/son dying in quick succession) there to have Dany's hatred of Cersei and the usurpers to grown and encompass all the common people but they turned on the nitro at the last crucial seconds.