What Daenerys Targaryen meant to me (full GOT spoilers)

Surfinn · May 20, 2019

I'm still trying to figure out what I think of Dany, conceptually and in terms of the way things actually unfolded in the show.

But I know one truth. Emilia Clarke knocked her role out of the park.

Give Kit Harington credit where it's due as well. His performance in their scene was heartbreaking.. first time in the entire series he's been that vulnerable, sobbing and begging Dany to give him a reason not to do it. But she doesn't give an inch.

I think it could have done done right, and I think it absolutely will be done right in the books, whenever that may be.

Deleted member 16657 · May 20, 2019

Wow, fascinating to see the parallels between this situation and the reception of Luke Skywalker in TLJ.

fanboi · May 20, 2019

Maintenance said:
If we're using logic like that then fire wouldn't be instant either.

No, but the time to swing an extra one two times will take more time before the fire from a dragon kills you :P

And fire like that would prolly overload your central nervous system quicker.

Rendering... · May 20, 2019

Phabh said:
What was the point of the whole series in the end?

Social forces like familial expectations, political traditions, and gender roles shape people's actions at least as much as their personal psychology, and often lead to tensions and contradictions that people try to resolve in ways that have messy consequences.

Oh and also, you might spontaneously turn into a murderous psycho in the midst of your greatest victory if you happen to have the wrong genes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I Don't Like · May 20, 2019

Yeah would have been nice for longer seasons but she kind of changed quickly based on circumstances as well and As people already pointed out the red flags were there for a while. I really liked the ending and thought Bran coming out on top was perfect.

Deleted member 8741 · May 20, 2019

I think a more drawn out turn was needed so it didn't feel so jarring, but her destructive attitude was always there.

The writing to get her there sucked, but anyone who killed as many people as she did in the way she did is a horrible human being that needs to be stopped. Her life isn't more valuable than each and every one of the children, women, and men she burned alive just for living in the wrong city.

Old Man Spike · May 20, 2019

woman said:
we really have to stop this thing where we pretend being executed by dragonfire is worse than being executed by the sword

You're right. What was I thinking? If you're one of the small folk and your lord doesn't bend the knee, you'd much rather be incinerated instantly along with everyone you know by indiscriminate, all-encompassing dragonfire rained down from on high by your conqueror, than endure weeks, months or even years of a siege followed by rape and pillaging and the summary executions, dreading when or even if your number comes up.

Dracarys is mercy.

Disclaimer · May 20, 2019

Awesome OP, BDS.

Daenerys' character isn't going to be done so dirty in the books. I would bet money she doesn't become a villain, let alone a genocidal maniac who firebombs the people she meant to liberate. After S1, the show consistently made Daenerys more violent and entitled than she's shown to be in the books, while minimizing her most characteristic traits: her empathy, her intelligence, her desire to do uplift the downtrodden. Daenerys is not doomed to become mad.

This season is just the bizzaro circus mirror version of GRRM's bullet points, twisted and distorted through the incomplete understanding of two misogynistic dudebro writers. Superficially, there might be some loose similarities to the upcoming books (e.g. King's Landing burns, but via accidental Chekhov's Wildfire — just like Shireen burns, but at a completely different time and place, in different circumstances and context, with different participants), but everything down to the characterization, context, structure, and chronology is all wrong.

A Dance with Dragons comes before The Winds of Winter, comes before A Dream of Spring. King's Landing burns in the Dance, and so must needs come before the Long Night and the confrontation Others, and Daenerys' Fire (to Jon's Ice) is a prerequisite to winning the War of the Dawn — ergo, Daenerys is not dying a villain. She comes to the precipice of her Moral Event Horizon at King's Landing, sees the horrible effects of her new Fire and Blood mantra (unintentional lighting of the wildfire she knew nothing of), and resolves to be — and yes, maybe die — a hero, because she feels she lost her mandate to rule the realm when King's Landing, its populace, and the Iron Throne burned.

woman · May 20, 2019

Old Man Spike said:
You're right. What was I thinking? If you're one of the small folk and your lord doesn't bend the knee, you'd much rather be incinerated instantly along with everyone you know by indiscriminate, all-encompassing dragonfire rained down from on high by your conqueror, than endure weeks, months or even years of a siege followed by rape and pillaging and the summary executions, dreading when or even if your number comes up.

Dracarys is mercy.

Assume the same situation except execution by sword. There's no difference.

Do you think Bran's empire is going to be peaceful? Lol

PancakeBurglar · May 20, 2019

I'm fine that she went mad but the lead up to her going mad felt way too rushed like she was at 25% mad then after hearing the bells went straight to 100%. The final season felt rushed for sure but I didn't hate it nearly as much as most of era it seems.

Zocano · May 20, 2019

Pau said:
I never got into the books or the show in part because I couldn't get past the gross hyper sexualization and emphasis on child rape. I was never convinced GRRM, or the showrunners, ultimately wanted to tell a story that women would feel empowering. But I understand why you and a lot of my female friends got swept away with the show, particularly with Dany. Seeing a woman who was a rape and abuse survivor turning to this powerful figure was, well, powerful. To see her get written off with sexist and ableist tropes such is frustrating. I don't think some men will understand what it means to root for fictional characters like this when we rarely get them because they can just turn to anywhere for it.

I will never truly be able to understand what it's like to not have a type of fictional character to relate to (in which I see a similar person as myself). I can't even really begin to pretend. It's unfortunately something I have to accept as someone that actually really enjoys the "with the best intentions" type character. I like Dany's fall but I accept that it's ultimately not helpful in the grand scheme of our media that yet another very prominent woman who was portrayed with power, grace, and kindness, just succumbs to tyranny via ~emotions~.

Deadly Cyclone · May 20, 2019

Dany was a red flag machine the entire series, the only issue with the execution is that there should have been more S7 and 8 episodes to show her turn. In the end, she didn't even really "turn," though, she still did what she's always done to her enemies. her enemies just never used innocent people as a weapon against her before.

jfkgoblue · May 20, 2019

One thing I'll say it is she didn't actually seem to "change the world", she just wanted to sit the Iron Throne.

And yeah her "going mad" was ridiculous and poorly written, but it was obvious that they were going to do that, also the books will also have her go mad, but she actually has (f)Aegon to help make a ton more.

Surfinn · May 20, 2019

Also I don't think there's any evidence that she is the "mad queen" or went crazy. We have no reason to believe she's mad, she just made some pretty fucked up decisions and even had a justification for doing so.

Disclaimer · May 20, 2019

Cyclone said:
Dany was a red flag machine the entire series, the only issue with the execution is that there should have been more S7 and 8 episodes to show her turn. In the end, she didn't even really "turn," though, she still did what she's always done to her enemies. her enemies just never used innocent people as a weapon against her before.

One of the issues with the execution is that she isn't such a red flag machine at all in the books, because "genocidal maniac who wants to Rule The World" this isn't where she's headed.

Blue Ninja · May 20, 2019

Her turn to villainy had been telegraphed since at least season 6, I think, so it didn't surprise me. They just completely botched the pacing of it: one doesn't go from mercilessly executing defiant lords to burning an entire city alive that quickly.

I'm not bothered by her fate, but she deserved more time to have a complete story. All of them did.

jfkgoblue · May 20, 2019

Disclaimer said:
Awesome OP, BDS.

Daenerys' character isn't going to be done so dirty in the books. I would bet money she doesn't become a villain, let alone a genocidal maniac who firebombs the people she meant to liberate. After S1, the show consistently made Daenerys more violent and entitled than she's shown to be in the books, while minimizing her most characteristic traits: her empathy, her intelligence, her desire to do uplift the downtrodden. Daenerys is not doomed to become mad.

This season is just the bizzaro circus mirror version of GRRM's bullet points, twisted and distorted through the incomplete understanding of two misogynistic dudebro writers. Superficially, there might be some loose similarities to the upcoming books (e.g. King's Landing burns, but via accidental Chekhov's Wildfire — just like Shireen burns, but at a completely different time and place, in different circumstances and context, with different participants), but everything down to the characterization, context, structure, and chronology is all wrong.

A Dance with Dragons comes before The Winds of Winter, comes before A Dream of Spring. King's Landing burns in the Dance, and so must needs come before the Long Night and the confrontation Others, and Daenerys' Fire (to Jon's Ice) is a prerequisite to winning the War of the Dawn — ergo, Daenerys is not dying a villain. She comes to the precipice of her Moral Event Horizon at King's Landing, sees the horrible effects of her new Fire and Blood mantra (unintentional lighting of the wildfire she knew nothing of), and resolves to be — and yes, maybe die — a hero, because she feels she lost her mandate to rule the realm when King's Landing, its populace, and the Iron Throne burned.

Oh she almost definitely will die a villain in the books. For one, her final ADWD chapter is her seeing a vision of Viserys and fully embracing "Fire and Blood". She has also slowly gotten darker and darker in Mereen. Another thing is that by the time she gets to Westeros, someone will have already "saved" the people from Cersei, someone who has a better claim to the Throne. GRRM has already said Dance of Dragons 2 is happening in the books. She isn't just going to stop when "she sees the wildfire", she isn't going to let (f)Aegon be.

She will become the villain in the books, but it will be much more fleshed out and make more sense.

If any character is going to change the most in how they end, it's Tyrion

Fiction · May 20, 2019

I just wanted to say I agree fully with everything you said.

TheLetdown · May 20, 2019

This has probably been posted but this is a good read to see some perspective from the person who has had to and will have to live with this character the most:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/t...-game-of-thrones-finale-emilia-clarke-beyonce

The line they chose to draw with Lawrence of Arabia is pretty apparent and tracks with the series pretty well, actually, for all the rushing s8 seemed to bring. Her character also follows Citizen Kane, with earned respect and love becoming entitled respect love, complete with both characters lashing out and the Rosebud-esque childhood fascination with the throne.

KoopaTheCasual · May 20, 2019

Speaking of Star Wars, I guess this is how Anakin Skywalker fans felt about the prequels.

Like, yea I know he has to become an evil dictator, but show me a believable arc to get there.

Don't just make the character do a 180 in 20 minutes.

Surfinn · May 20, 2019

I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you think she won't end up in the same place in the books, even if the execution is far better.

But who knows when we'll actually find that out.

I don't feel great about her arc in the show because we needed at least a season to get her to where she is in The Bells, and even then, the execution of her decision has to be done differently IMO.

Duxxy3 · May 20, 2019

Aside from Dany's fall to madness, the last season was actually pretty good. Dany falling to madness, from what she was like in the early seasons, just doesn't make sense.

Border · May 20, 2019

She's been brutal and vindictive before,. She's killed people just to make a point and assert dominance before. So her turn towards wickedness didn't really come as a huge surprise.

Tyrion was not trying to say that "There's no difference between killing good people and evil people", just that everyone turned a blind eye to her nature since her wrath was largely directed at groups that were mostly villains and brutes.

If they wanted to sell her as a villain I think they should have had her torch some beloved character(s) in anger or vengeance. The showrunners thought they could make their point by having her light up the Tarlys, but those people were bit players and kinda assholes anyway. Most everyone insistently argued that Dany was in the right to do it, but they probably would have got the message if it were somebody like Bronn or Jaime.

Hydrus · May 20, 2019

Great post BDS! Love all your posts these past few weeks!

Kirblar · May 20, 2019

Disclaimer said:
One of the issues with the execution is that she isn't such a red flag machine at all in the books, because "genocidal maniac who wants to Rule The World" this isn't where she's headed.

Yes she is. A Dance With Dragons is devoted to the story of her abandoning the compromises necessary for peace in favor of her embracing being a conqueror who doesn't care what it takes to reclaim her birthright.

dark494 · May 20, 2019

And one day this century when GRRM does finish the book people will stan everything different in it for whatever he ends up writing as superior, while secretly he went, "Well I had written it exactly like the show told it, but I guess some people didn't like that. Guess I'll just rewrite it differently now and save face. Hurray for loosely based adaptations!"

Spine Crawler · May 20, 2019

Cyclone said:
Dany was a red flag machine the entire series, the only issue with the execution is that there should have been more S7 and 8 episodes to show her turn. In the end, she didn't even really "turn," though, she still did what she's always done to her enemies. her enemies just never used innocent people as a weapon against her before.

she already won. she still killed everyone. thats completely different from the dany that sacrificed her everything to hold back the army of the dead

bitunoriginal · May 20, 2019

Havent read the thread, haven't seen the episode. If this thread title is a spoiler then the OP should be banned. Most UK viewers haven't had a chance to watch the episode yet as 9-5 job would have only finished about 2 hours ago.

Pau · May 20, 2019

Zocano said:
I will never truly be able to understand what it's like to not have a type of fictional character to relate to (in which I see a similar person as myself). I can't even really begin to pretend. It's unfortunately something I have to accept as someone that actually really enjoys the "with the best intentions" type character. I like Dany's fall but I accept that it's ultimately not helpful in the grand scheme of our media that yet another very prominent woman who was portrayed with power, grace, and kindness, just succumbs to tyranny via ~emotions~.

Yeah, in a vacuum her fate wouldn't be as disappointing or hurtful and would just be another example of that type of character. But we don't consume media in a vacuum. Maybe one day we will get enough diverse, female characters who can fill multiple roles in various types of stories.

Lotus · May 20, 2019

Amazing OP that succintly spells out the biggest issue by far with this season. Just straight up character assassination, Arya would be proud. This was worth the read, thanks for writing it up!

Kirblar · May 20, 2019

bitunoriginal said:
Havent read the thread, haven't seen the episode. If this thread title is a spoiler then the OP should be banned. Most UK viewers haven't had a chance to watch the episode yet as 9-5 job would have only finished about 2 hours ago.

The show is done. Its not a spoiler.

Old Man Spike · May 20, 2019

woman said:
Assume the same situation except execution by sword. There's no difference.

Do you think Bran's empire is going to be peaceful? Lol

Don't know. Bran's not a charismatic leader prone to making righteous grandiose speeches, doesn't have a dragon to burn cities of innocent people to the ground, and isn't backed by an army of robotic eunuchs who obey his every command without question. He doesn't have the wealth of tools at his disposal to commit atrocities on the same scale or with the same ease that Daenerys had; he'll have to work harder for it.

Kalentan · May 20, 2019

No one is going to disagree that this whole thing was stupid rushed... But even if it wasn't I feel like others forget that GRRM told D&D the major plot points of the ending of the series. Danny going full villain was one of those plot points. Rushed or not, that was what you were going to get. That, however, doesn't excuse the weirdly sexist additions to the show by D&D.

Disclaimer · May 20, 2019

jfkgoblue said:
Oh she almost definitely will die a villain in the books. For one, her final ADWD chapter is her seeing a vision of Viserys and fully embracing "Fire and Blood". She has also slowly gotten darker and darker in Mereen. Another thing is that by the time she gets to Westeros, someone will have already "saved" the people from Cersei, someone who has a better claim to the Throne. GRRM has already said Dance of Dragons 2 is happening in the books. She isn't just going to stop when "she sees the wildfire", she isn't going to let (f)Aegon be.

She will become the villain in the books, but it will be much more fleshed out and make more sense.

If any character is going to change the most in how they end, it's Tyrion

You're right, she isn't going to ignore fAegon, which means his death and King's Landing's wildfire conflagration comes relatively soon after her landing — which is therefore before the Long Night and the War of the Dawn.

There isn't going to be any of this "War for the South gets put on hold for the Northern Threat" nonsense. Daenerys isn't going to "become a villain" only to go North and be heroic, only to come back and continue "being the villain."

The structure and setup only make sense if she (unwittingly) causes King's Landing to burn before going North. Daenerys is part of the Azor Ahai prophecy, whether as AA or Nissa Nissa, which means her heroic death will be against the Others or in sacrifice for their defeat.

More_Badass · May 20, 2019

Cyclone said:
Dany was a red flag machine the entire series, the only issue with the execution is that there should have been more S7 and 8 episodes to show her turn. In the end, she didn't even really "turn," though, she still did what she's always done to her enemies. her enemies just never used innocent people as a weapon against her before.

A weapon? A human shield, you mean.

And then her enemy surrendered so those innocent people weren't a weapon or a shield anymore. The battle was over.

Anything after that was 100% on Dany, not Cersei

bitunoriginal · May 20, 2019

Kirblar said:
The show is done. Its not a spoiler.

It is for people that haven't seen it, especially in the UK. The show aired officially at 2am UK time therefore the majority of working UK people haven't seen it. Totally inconsiderate and unnecessary to spoil something in the title of a thread.

Kirblar · May 20, 2019

bitunoriginal said:
It is for people that haven't seen it, especially in the UK. The show aired officially at 2am UK time therefore the majority of working UK people haven't seen it. Totally inconsiderate and unnecessary to spoil something in the title of a thread.

Nothing is spoiled. Its a written post on a character whose story is now done, as are all the characters on the show, because the show is done.

Deleted member 18161 · May 20, 2019

As a fan of pro wrestling, a heel turn after years of someone being the 'hero' are some of the best and most unexpected events in wrestling history (Hulk Hogan's famous wholesome cartoon like characters turn into 'Hollywood Hogan's' edgy 'baddy' character springs to mind).

People take this stuff far too seriously. It's just entertainment...

bitunoriginal · May 20, 2019

Kirblar said:
Nothing is spoiled. Its a written post on a character whose story is now done, as are all the characters on the show, because the show is done.

So because you've seen it and the 'show is done', it's fine to ruin it for people that haven't seen it yet? It's totally unnecessary to have a spoiler in the title of the thread. Clearly the title insinuates that she is dead or dies in the episode. If it isn't a spoiler, then you could just say it's not a spoiler. Considering you haven't done that, I'm assuming it is a spoiler therefore totally out of order and inconsiderate to your fellow forum users who for whatever reason haven't had a chance to watch the episode yet.

Lotus · May 20, 2019

Orb said:
I was never a Dany stan or anything, but I genuinely feel bad for the people who were. The way Tyrion talked about her in the finale as if we all should have realized that she would genocide an entire city for no discernible reason was maddening.

God, you have no idea. It's already frustrating enough hearing it from people here, but for someone that's been with her for so long suddenly acting like this was the most obvious thing ever (despite stanning hard AF for her to the point of snitching on Varys) was a total WTF moment. It was meta in the worst way.

Disclaimer · May 20, 2019

Kirblar said:
Yes she is. A Dance With Dragons is devoted to the story of her abandoning the compromises necessary for peace in favor of her embracing being a conqueror who doesn't care what it takes to reclaim her birthright.

Yes, which is going to be a much more morally complicated story, and the endgame's structure is set up to be emphatically different.

Daenerys embraces Fire and Blood at the end of ADWD. It's going to propel her to liberate the slaves bloodily in both Volantis and Pentos on the way home (RIP Illyrio), and come into conflict with the usurper Aegon (who's been shown to be immature and inexperienced in his dealings with Tyrion).

That leads to King's Landing's destruction via Aerys II's wildfire, in a bitterly ironic twist which no one intended or wanted... except Tyrion, not Daenerys. It's Tyrion who wishes death on King's Landing and everyone in it, and it's Tyrion who knows of the wildfire. He'll be the devil on Daenerys' shoulder — not the angel.

And after all this, after the death of her subjects and mandate, Daenerys goes North — just like Stannis did — to save the realm from supernatural apocalypse.

jfkgoblue · May 20, 2019

Disclaimer said:
You're right, she isn't going to ignore fAegon, which means his death and King's Landing's wildfire conflagration comes relatively soon after her landing — which is therefore before the Long Night and the War of the Dawn.

There isn't going to be any of this "War for the South gets put on hold for the Northern Threat" nonsense. Daenerys isn't going to "become a villain" only to go North and be heroic, only to come back and continue "being the villain."

The structure and setup only make sense if she (unwittingly) causes King's Landing to burn before going North. Daenerys is part of the Azor Ahai prophecy, whether as AA or Nissa Nissa, which means her heroic death will be against the Others or in sacrifice for their defeat.

The way they deal with the Others will be different(most popular theory is that they renegotiate a pact), but GRRM has said that he felt the Scouring of the Shire was an important part of LOTR. So there is a very good chance that it occurs afterwards.

ishan · May 20, 2019

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo1ast/spoilers_found_on_twitter_apparently_grrm/

Dont know the validity of this and am not an avid got book reader (read summaries , parts etc not read books multiple times etc) but I'll post this for ppl who wanted another take from the book perspective. If true it basically more or less cements some sort of heel turn for dany. The show of course is super rushed and another issue .
Having said that I would wager this is the end point for the books too. I think main beats of the endgame remain the same just how we get there changes.

Elfotografoalocado · May 20, 2019

Daenerys was showing signs of being a tyrant and of having to tact whatsoever of the people she ruled, as well as no acceptance of criticism, for like, several seasons. It was very clear in the way the character acted, it was extremely obvious she was going to burn the whole city down, I knew it for a long time.

Of course, another matter is that the show doesn't know how to present her and kept jumping from presenting her in a triumphal way to showing her dark side.

Arkanim94 · May 20, 2019

bitunoriginal said:
So because you've seen it and the 'show is done', it's fine to ruin it for people that haven't seen it yet? It's totally unnecessary to have a spoiler in the title of the thread. Clearly the title insinuates that she is dead or dies in the episode.

where?

skillzilla81 · May 20, 2019

bitunoriginal said:
So because you've seen it and the 'show is done', it's fine to ruin it for people that haven't seen it yet? It's totally unnecessary to have a spoiler in the title of the thread. Clearly the title insinuates that she is dead or dies in the episode. If it isn't a spoiler, then you could just say it's not a spoiler. Considering you haven't done that, I'm assuming it is a spoiler therefore totally out of order and inconsiderate to your fellow forum users who for whatever reason haven't had a chance to watch the episode yet.

You're reading into it.

OP is clearly saying, now that the series has finished, here is what the character meant to me.

Fuck this spoiler culture bullshit. You can't even use words the way they're meant to be used.

Lotus · May 20, 2019

The Nightsky said:
In Season 2 Dany threatens that when her dragons are grown she will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground, destroying all those who have wronged her.

The scene where her and her people are both desperate and starving lol? I guess? To say that this all needed a lot more fleshing out is a massive understatement.

bitunoriginal said:
Clearly the title insinuates that she is dead or dies in the episode.

No it doesn't, stop being a spoilerphobe.

Metal B · May 20, 2019

The Nightking and Daenerys pure opposites of each other, which tried to destroy Westeros:

The Nightking was a cold hearted creature, which had no passion in his mission. He just wanted to destroy because that's was his purpose. On his way he killed anything to increase his power. Anything he killed became a cold corpse, who followed him into battle. (He has different form of mystical ice powers)
Daenerys was a hot hearted woman, who was extreme passionate about getting back to Westeros and get her throne back. On her way she destroyed any evil tyrant and gave slaves their life back. Those slaves and many other people were caught up in her fire and followed her into battle. (She has mystical fire power in form of her dragons.)

Disclaimer · May 20, 2019

jfkgoblue said:
The way they deal with the Others will be different(most popular theory is that renegotiate a pact), but GRRM has said that he felt the Scouring of the Shire was an important part of LOTR.

And? People are clinging too hard to KL as the Scouring. KL happens before the Others. Aegon and co. aren't going to AFK in KL until the war in the north is done.

Between the northern zombie apocalypse and the southern Lovecraftian horror, there'll be no shortage of bittersweet Scouring material.

Osan912 · May 20, 2019

Mirri maz durr was right. Khalessi got what was coming.

What Daenerys Targaryen meant to me (full GOT spoilers)

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