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Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,139
That act was not a matter of sense. How could it be?

It's pure rage and desperation. She achieved her goals. Her story came to an end. Her conquest was successful, her "destiny" fulfilled. And suddenly, everything that helped her cope with all the pain she has suffered vanished.

Hence the "mad" label being used to describe the act, which I don't agree makes a narrative sense with her characterization since coming to Westeros. Ever since coming to Westeros, she was the most rational character in the show with her most trusted allies betraying her for absolutely no reason before she even did anything dramatically bad while the others died and Grey Worm didn't even killed Jon and Tyrion in retaliation.

The problem with that act for me is that it doesn't really work by itself but more as a justification of everyone else's behaviors but after said behaviors happened. It's either an unexpected decision or a realistic possibility but it cannot be both.
 

drog

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
545
User Warned: Drive-by trolling
just another internet nerd who is salty that the show did not live up to your head-cannon....Last Jedi much?!?
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,497
Or maybe those hallucinations were due to her miscarriage and bloodloss, eating poisonous berries, severe dehydration and wandering in the sun for days. You know, things that actually affect a person's mind.

Well given the way the series is going to end I am gonna go ahead and say that is unlikely in my opinion, but you are certainly entitled to your own opinion as well obviously.
 

DonaldKimball

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,413
I didn't care much about Dany from reading the first book but Emilia Clarke won me over. Dany became my favorite character but the way they butchered her entire arc in the past episodes left a real sour taste in my mouth.

I think Emilia is part of the reason that Dany turning evil doesn't really work in the show.

I don't know if it's the acting or just her general sweet demeanor but I never imagined her character killing truly innocent people. You can refer to a million points in the show where she held speeches about razing cities but she never killed innocents. Thats a fact. You can't really fault people for being disappointed in the way they rewrote Danys character in these past episodes because even Emilia Clarke was shocked about the ending script. Her acting never conveyed the alleged bloodthirsty mad queen angle. In the books we are privy to her thoughts, here we aren't. We rely on her acting and she just never came across as someone who was slipping.

I really don't fault the OP for feeling that way, I can honestly say I feel similar. This was almost a 9 year journey (much longer for book readers) and it ended with a whimper. I don't think it's weird or sad that a fictional character evokes such feelings in us. It actually reminds me of this quote from Westworld

"Since I was a child I've always loved a good story. I believed that stories helped us to ennoble ourselves, to fix what was broken in us, and to help us become the people we dreamed of being. Lies that told a deeper truth."

For what it's worth, I don't think the books will follow the show in this regard, at least not in that fashion so there is still some hope.

The Gunslinger is gonna open a thread for people who want to start reading or re-read the books. Seems like a good way to wash out the taste of last night.
 
Last edited:

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,143
NYC
Her rushed turn to madness and villainy will be the worst thing the show ever did. There was a way to get there and they completely failed at doing it
The problem was attempting to get her to turn into something as bad as or worse than the night king within the span of two episodes. Night king didn't have any story so it's easier to accept him as an absolute evil in this world of game of thrones where absolute evils are rare and it's more differences in philosophies and allegiances. Even cerseis evilness stemmed from her wanting above all else to protect her family and children.

Dany? Well... She just wants to burn everyone to 'free' them. They played all the beats like she just misunderstood all the sudden what her morality was. Jon is still unsure if he's right in the end, asha is still pissed she died, etc. But it's doesn't give with her actual actions and dialogue. She makes no sense in the end, she's murdering Innocents and plans to do more for unclear goals. She's promising to attack her allies in winterfell, etc.

She went full dragon Hitler to the point that of course someone was going to kill her. Because she turned pure evil.

Maybe scale that shit back, you didn't have time or the framework to get her character there. But I feel like that would be asking too much of these writers who just obviously wanted the easiest way out if the complicated plot threads for the last two seasons.
 

LifeLine

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,779
I get people having problems with how she got there. But those complaining that she turned evil just come off as salty.

Game of Thrones was always about fucking with people's favorite character. Starks were always the heroes. Dany's turn was foreshadowed since the beginning.

If the show wasn't based on a book, they definitely would have changed the ending after seeing the cultural impact the mother of dragons has had. But that's the benefit of having a show based on a book, you can't change the story because of audience reactions. Robb and Ned didn't get to live a little longer because they were fan favorites.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
There's nothing in the books about her going mad. She is actually a softer, less violent, more caring character in the books. She spent the last book bending over backwards to achieve peace until it all blew up in her face. Her epiphany at the end is about her having to be more ruthless because she lives in a violent world. That's not madness.

Look a the bright side: if you ever reread the books, they'll still manage to surprise you!

Danaerys is going NUTS is the books. The hardcore way.
 

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,676
Let's talk about how people in this thread are somehow delegitimizing how media can have a positive influence on people and shape cultural perceptions because apparently we're all too smart for that while also ignoring the entire culture we're in now
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
Hence the "mad" label being used to describe the act, which I don't agree makes a narrative sense with her characterization since coming to Westeros. Ever since coming to Westeros, she was the most rational character in the show with her most trusted allies betraying her for absolutely no reason before she even did anything dramatically bad while the others died and Grey Worm didn't even killed Jon and Tyrion in retaliation.

The problem with that act for me is that it doesn't really work by itself but more as a justification of everyone else's behaviors but after said behaviors happened. It's either an unexpected decision or a realistic possibility but it cannot be both.

Does the show in the last 2 episodes ever explicitly say she's mad? She killed a lot of people but it seems they very clearly raise the question on if killing her was the right act. Tyrion says "ask me in 10 years" and Jon is very clearly distraught and not sure if he did the right thing.

It'd be a really interesting outcome if there's a sequel eventually and it turns out that killing her was the wrong choice and that the kingdom is even worse off and Bran isn't a strong enough leader.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,688
California
What are you talking about OP, Luke's arc ended in Return of the Jedi.

Dany should have taken Lady O's advice. She's not a sheep, she's not a wolf, and she's not a lion; she's a mother fucking dragon!

God I miss Lady Olenna :(
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,102
Pennsylvania
The show would have benefited from at least a couple more seasons of character development but I personally still enjoyed what we got. Some stuff felt very rushed though in the end.
 

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,801
She was always held back by her advisors. All of which were dead or betrayed her by that point. Yes it happened too quickly because the season was short but I don't see any character assassination here. She's been fighting it for years.
 

JasonV

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,968
Let's talk about how people in this thread are somehow delegitimizing how media can have a positive influence on people and shape cultural perceptions because apparently we're all too smart for that while also ignoring the entire culture we're in now

The entire "its just tv show duh" crowd are such simpletons.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,139
Does the show in the last 2 episodes ever explicitly say she's mad? She killed a lot of people but it seems they very clearly raise the question on if killing her was the right act. Tyrion says "ask me in 10 years" and Jon is very clearly distraught and not sure if he did the right thing.

It'd be a really interesting outcome if there's a sequel eventually and it turns out that killing her was the wrong choice and that the kingdom is even worse off and Bran isn't a strong enough leader.

Jon being distraught is expected since he loves her but I took Tyrion's sentence more as way to say that only time will tell if the situation with Bran being King would end up better than what they would get with Dany. I'm sure Tyrion believes that he made the right decision.
 

sam777

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,688
After reading the book readers opinions it seems like D&D botched her character development.
 

Blackjaw

Member
Nov 21, 2017
720
Sansa was the real female hero fans should hold onto. Pretty girl who had dreams of dresses and court life who got wrapped up in politics and war. Beaten, raped, used, looked down on, doubted (doubted herself)...and she persevered...became the Queen of the North. Her character arc was fascinating to watch, even in the tombs when all was lost she was strong.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,073
I feel like one of the things to bear in mind when understanding both the OP's position, and that of many others, is this:
For viewers who wanted to see a better world, Dany served as a power fantasy to make that world a reality. Power fantasies aren't really what ASOIAF is about, but this type of story -- the downtrodden girl who rises to the highest of heights in the pursuit of uplifting others alongside her -- is so rare in fantasy fiction. Why couldn't we have just this one?

The problem isn't really just one of the character or the show, but the wider cultural context in which they stand. A culture that's kinda lacking in alternatives in many regards, so a character like Daenerys isn't going to be received solely on the terms the series presents. While one might go, "This isn't the kind of series to be looking for such a character/fantasy." - and I would say it's a fair criticism - the problem in that the 'right' kind of series is not so nearly forthcoming, and certainly not so generously funded and marketed.

So then you layer the more widely acknowledged issues of the actual execution of the idea of Dany being like Aerys II before her on top of that, and it's not that hard to see just how frustrating this result can be.
 

TXULJ

Banned
Apr 12, 2019
332
Dany-House-of-Undying-Snow-1200x676.png


They've been hinting at this since the beginning of the show. It's one thing to be upset that the showrunners didn't properly develop her character. It's a whole other thing to be upset that a character didn't end up the way you wanted them to.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,888
Dany-House-of-Undying-Snow-1200x676.png


They've been hinting at this since the beginning of the show. It's one thing to be upset that the showrunners didn't properly develop her character. It's a whole other thing to be upset that a character didn't end up the way you wanted them to.
I heard the script itself said it was snow.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,900
I don't have a problem with how she died.

But so much of the show just seems pointless and contrived.

Really all of this started because Cersei wanted to be with her brother. The entire war started when she killed her husband (to be with Jamie) and that led to Ned dying as well. I think the way she died made sense, but I definitely wanted that moment to be way more dramatic than it turned out. That is more of a problem with the direction of the show than the story. Really though that was the start of everything and I was not satisfied at all in how they concluded that arc.

Also from reading the books there is so much that they introduce that doesn't seem to really matter at the end. Even Dany just seems like a plot device to give the Night King the way to get past the wall, then to fight him and finally to end all the conflict in about 10 minutes because apparently dragons can just wreak everyones shit if you actually ask them to. I was expecting something meaningful to come at the end for both her and Jon. Everything they need is magically provided (she gets armies and dragons out of nowhere, Jon comes back to life, wins every battle by some miracle and goes from being low man on the wall to being a King in record time).

I thought this was going to be more about the end of all life as we know it battle with the Night King than it was just about Dany's ambitions and then I guess the Starks "winning". I feel that kind of ending would have had more weight to it and given more credence to all of those prophecies, but that could just be what I wanted from the series.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,187
No, my response to "What Daenerys Targaryen meant to me" is "I don't know, people acting like this was some big character turn doesn't make any sense to me. From the very first season her nature was made pretty clear."

What a great catch, kudos.
The OP covers the rebuke you made in your post.
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
Sansa was the real female hero fans should hold onto. Pretty girl who had dreams of dresses and court life who got wrapped up in politics and war. Beaten, raped, used, looked down on, doubted (doubted herself)...and she persevered...became the Queen of the North. Her character arc was fascinating to watch, even in the tombs when all was lost she was strong.
season 5 bullshit notwithstanding, I agree with this. Sansa's shift from season 1 to season 2 was perfect and I rooted for her ever since.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
Sansa was the real female hero fans should hold onto. Pretty girl who had dreams of dresses and court life who got wrapped up in politics and war. Beaten, raped, used, looked down on, doubted (doubted herself)...and she persevered...became the Queen of the North. Her character arc was fascinating to watch, even in the tombs when all was lost she was strong.

They really did her mom dirty by calling Sansa Ned's daughter at the end and just not acknowledging Cat for like half the show.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
She's still a great character. Most of my favourite characters in fiction are villains. But she's felt entitled to everything since episode 2. She was always going to do anything to get what she wanted. Season 8 could of used at least 2 more episodes, but this was always gonna be the outcome.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,611
Chicago
Fantastic. BDS has been on point with the critique. That was the best write up I've seen so far on blemishes on this season that also left me feeling empty. I did not feel like I was watching Dany at all these last couple of episodes and that really sucked.

The fact that dudes in some spaces have been championing "women shouldn't have power" memes/jokes as a result of this season is sad. When people say, "bitch was/went crazy" is the plot twist I legit have no good argument because that's what D&D decided to fly with.

People saying Jon got did dirty but he still got to be the hero and kill Queen crazy. He also lived and got a diet prison sentence. Tyrion got off EASY as fuck after being 1000% useless for two seasons. Shit was brutal to watch and highlights the shortcomings of D&D when they have to create and develop their own arcs and resolutions, or at least what comes between all of that.
 

Ganzlinger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,732
I agree with your points regarding the story. Daenerys deserved better.

However, the power fantasy parallels with our society needs to change... yeah but not like this. Dany's actions might be justifiable in that cruel world, but her methods aren't acceptable in today's world. Don't look at someone like her to be the inspiration for fighting oppression.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,950
I think people who are upset are upset purely because Dany went down a darker path than what *they* expected/wanted her to. There could be some who are more upset that they rushed it, but they're upset because their mind-version of Dany isn't what has/will come to pass.
Can you really blame them when the character was derailed in such an unconvincing manner?
I agree that it is certainly a path that the book could follow but we're not gonna go from mild annoyance to genocide a full city on a dime either.
In the context of the show, Dany's turn is stupidly undercooked.
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
34,046
San Francisco
Dany-House-of-Undying-Snow-1200x676.png


They've been hinting at this since the beginning of the show. It's one thing to be upset that the showrunners didn't properly develop her character. It's a whole other thing to be upset that a character didn't end up the way you wanted them to.

It could be interpreted either way - snow if the Night King wins, ash if the Dragon Queen wins.

The fact that you can't see her breath and the ceiling is torn off makes it pretty clear what it actually is though imo.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,213
Let's talk about how people in this thread are somehow delegitimizing how media can have a positive influence on people and shape cultural perceptions because apparently we're all too smart for that while also ignoring the entire culture we're in now
"caring is for losers"
someone around here.
 

ReginaldXIV

It's Pronounced "Aerith"
Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,896
Minnesota
The moment they landed in Westeros at the beginning of season 7 her character was different. There was never a lead up, she just was paranoid and disillusioned all of a sudden. To justify those emotions they made everyone around her look uncharacteristically stupid.

If any of this happens in the last 2 books, it will ruin any good will left.

I will say D&D did one thing right. They channeled all the negativity away from the actors, to the point they feel like the victims in these character assassinations.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,896
GoT has a host of other issues, but Dany definitely got done dirty.

Let us together hope that GRRM finishes the books and gives us the ending we're looking for.
 

Zen

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,669
Have been watching the series again this past week and from the very first few episodes she's raped, groped by her brother, and is fed the idea that the people of Westeros whisper for their true Targaryen ruler.
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,611
Chicago
Just gonna take this opportunity to say that Era has never been as progressive as it pats itself on the back for, but the reaction of men towards women criticising the sexism of this show (and specifically this season/episode) is fucking disgusting and embarrassing even by this place's standards.

This goes for most progressive spaces so this isn't a shock to anyone tbh.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,741
Sansa was the real female hero fans should hold onto. Pretty girl who had dreams of dresses and court life who got wrapped up in politics and war. Beaten, raped, used, looked down on, doubted (doubted herself)...and she persevered...became the Queen of the North. Her character arc was fascinating to watch, even in the tombs when all was lost she was strong.
This too. Sansa, Arya (jumping the shark aside), and Brienne of Tarth were much more impressive characters to me than Dany ever was. They seemed much more grounded and mired with more relatable day-to-day hardships that women in positions of power likely would have faced in a medieval world.

It can be argued that Sansa had the strongest moral character (and wit) in the entire story arc. And those 2 characteristics are really what enables you to win at the game of thrones. She is basically the anti-Cersei.
 

Ninjimbo

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
1,731
I don't understand watching something like this expecting to be rewarded. These aren't videogames. It's a story and one that is especially brutal and ugly. Rooting for characters here was a fool's errand the moment Ned Stark lost his head.
 

JasonV

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,968
I don't understand watching something like this expecting to be rewarded. These aren't videogames. It's a story and one that is especially brutal and ugly. Rooting for characters here was a fool's errand the moment Ned Stark lost his head.

For all the brutality it was happy endings all round. The Starks, Bron, even Tyrion lol.
 

br0ken_shad0w

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Washington
As controversial as Aegon was when he was introduced in ADWD, he was definitely going to be integral to Dany's character development by the end of the books and it was a mistake to cut him and replace parts of him with Cersei.
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,980
The show's treatment of Dany is pretty awful. She goes from self-sacrificing hero to power-mad villain in two episodes.
And what's worse is that it's all on her. She is completely to blame for murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians for no reason. She has literally gone mad and that's why she did it.

In the books, like most characters, she's neither good nor evil. Like most characters, she's trapped by the situation. It is the situation that is bad, and GRRM is very good at showing that there is no fairy princess or hero-with-a-magic-sword to make it right. Should she have crucified some of the masters? Should she have let them live? Should she have burn the masters pyramids to the ground? There is no clear right answer.
I strongly suspect that there will be reason behind her 'mad' decision to burn KL in the books. It will be shown as a bad and terrible act, but I expect we'll see very different interpretations from Dany, Jon, Sansa and Arienne chapters.

GRRM is telling a story about how war is bad and the feudal system is bad, and how they force even the most noble and good people into doing evil. Remember, he's a conscientious objector and he brings these politics into his work. The books have a lot of rape and powerless women because he's trying to show the evils of a feudal system where women are little more than chattel and have to make terrible sacrifices to gain any power or respect.

D&D have taken a much more traditional heroic hollywood approach, with characters dong things that are generally portrayed as either unambiguously good or unambiguously bad. There's rape in the show because some people are evil and everything would be okay if only the "right" people were in power instead of the "wrong" people.