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Deleted member 1849

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A hot topic recently in the media and on gaming forums has been the cut that various storefronts take when selling games. This is usually focused on Steam, who are believed to take a cut of 30%, which is comparable to the take that Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo take on consoles, and Epic who have lowered their cut to 12% and pay for this partially by passing payment processing costs onto consumers in regions where those costs are high.

The Steam figure of course, is misleading as it does not include copies sold through keys, of which Valve take a 0% cut. Unlimited key generation has been a feature on Steam for many years now, and allows developers to sell a game wherever they want, including other stores on PC which support it, such as Itch.io, Humble, GMG, and many more. It also allows them to distribute games through direct distribution, or give out copies to backers which supported the game during crowdfunding campaigns.

But how misleading is it really? When this is bought up as a topic, people often reply saying "only a small number of keys are sold that way", "nobody uses key sellers", etc. If that were true, then Valve's cut would still be close to the 30% people report. If only we had a way of figuring out roughly how many people bought their games this way.

So that's what I'm trying to do. This post was inspired by a post from Lashman on Twitter which I will post below. While it is unfortunately impossible to determine exact how many copies of various games people own and where they bought it from. Steam does provide a method of separating reviews by copies purchased on Steam or elsewhere. Lashman however only sampled a few games and the variation was high enough that I didn't feel fully satisfied with the results.



Other storefronts on PC

Obviously a key piece of context here is that for keys to be distributed, there must be other stores to sell through. There are tens of legitimate key sellers on the platform, and a list of many of them can be found on www.isthereanydeal.com. These stores also take a cut, and that cut can vary significantly from as low as nearly nothing (which will be explained soon), to figures comparable to the 30% Valve would take. I will mention a couple here, but this list is far from exhaustive.

First of all, Humble. Humble provide two methods of key selling. The first is through the Humble store, which takes a 10% to charity, and a 15% cut to Humble, accounting for a total 25% cut. The other method of selling through Humble is by using the Humble Widget on the developers own website. If a developer chooses to take this approach, they will receive a 95% cut of the sales, with 5% going to Humble. The cut is viewable from the developer FAQ page here: https://support.humblebundle.com/hc/en-us/articles/202742080-Humble-Store-FAQ-For-Developers

Itch.io are the next I want to mention. They offer one of the best deals imaginable to developers, and are the only store I know of to offer a variable cut which is chosen by the developer themselves. Itch set a default cut to 10%, but the variable cut has no limits and a developer can set this as low as 0% if they wish, or as high as 100%. Many developers do not do this, however. Itch.io also provide a widget, just like Humble, and the itch.io widget takes the same cut as through the store. Information about the widget can be found https://itch.io/docs/creators/widget and the variable cut (which they call "open revenue sharing") can be found https://itchio.tumblr.com/post/112709605589/introducing-open-revenue-sharing

I wanted to discuss GOG too, but exact numbers are more difficult to find. We do, however, have multiple developers who have said they take the same 30% cut that Steam takes. I wanted to mention them as they are one of the largest competitors to Steam we have, operate completely separately, and do not provide Steam keys as they are strictly DRM free only.

The Model

I use the same model used by Lashman, but extend the sample by using public data obtained through the steam API to find the number of user reviews for copies sold through Steam, or through some other approach, for the top 100 games over the past 2 weeks. The list of 100 games is generated by data provided by the SteamSpy API, and the code which generates this data was kindly provided by Wok, who also developed the SteamSpyPi library which was also used here. The number of reviews are calculated directly from querying Steam. The code, which I have since modified slightly, is available from his Github: https://github.com/woctezuma/steam-cut

The model can be summarized by the following:
  • All copies are assumed to operate at the old revenue share of 30% to Valve, 70% to the developer. As of December 1st this is no longer true and developers who make a game which generates over $10 million on Steam, will use an adjusted revenue share of 75%/25% on earnings beyond $10M. The revenue share is then adjusted again at $50 million, to a split of 80%/20%. https://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamworks#announcements/detail/1697191267930157838
  • Both groups of people (Steam purchasers vs Key purchasers) are assumed to review games at the same rate. Unfortunately I cannot think of a way of modelling this, short of doing a survey of users. This is one of the main assumptions the approach takes, and it is possible that it does not hold true. Hektor also mentioned this in the PC thread here, and suggested that maybe key purchasers are more likely to be engaged with the platform and the various features it has, so might be more likely to leave a review. I'm not going to get into that, and just leave it as a weakness of the model.
  • Games are sampled from the top 100 games on Steam as of the player numbers in the past 2 weeks. This list includes many F2P games, like DOTA2, Warframe, etc, and those games are all excluded from the calculation. Valve games are kept in the data as they are sold through third party stores, but the "Valve cut" column should be ignored as obviously the developer cut of a Valve game would also go to Valve.
As for point number 3. I do realize that basing my numbers off the top 100 does have the potential to induce sampling bias. I have run it through a couple of indie games and some (Assault Android Cactus, BattleBlock Theatre) fall within what I would expect based on the calculation, however others (Cuphead) are significantly different. However, in the case of Cuphead the developer has already replied to me and said they sold a significant portion of their copies through Steam, and my model calculates their number to be much higher than average also.That gives me some confidence that the model works, even if the sampling method might not be ideal. I'm going to revisit this later hopefully to improve this, so watch this space I guess.

That summarizes everything hopefully. If I have forgotten something, let me know and I'll try and explain it.

The numbers

The numbers generated by the code are given in the following table, and a more human readable version provided in this Google spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ICv-UE4i651yMkpDt5JfKIrN9xh0-R61EnBQBW1ckxQ/edit?usp=sharing

Game AppID Steam Non-Steam Valve Cut
PLAYERUNKNOWN'S BATTLEGROUNDS 578080 824700 153479 25.2929167360984
Left 4 Dead 2 550 152370 106946 17.6275278039149
Half-Life 2: Lost Coast 340 4802 1974 21.2603305785124
PAYDAY 2 218620 213462 151291 17.556702755015
Half-Life 2: Deathmatch 320 4079 2701 18.0486725663717
Garry's Mod 4000 305109 73487 24.1768798402519
Counter-Strike: Source 240 44651 35237 16.7675996394953
Counter-Strike 10 64824 62682 15.2519881417345
Portal 2 620 102577 37029 22.0428205091472
Counter-Strike: Condition Zero 80 8782 4701 19.5401616850849
Portal 400 39704 12992 22.6036131774708
Z1 Battle Royale 433850 147668 55148 21.8426554118018
Grand Theft Auto V 271590 399572 66556 25.7164555658532
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 72850 155071 97024 18.4538765148059
Half-Life 2 220 50171 19980 21.4555744037861
Terraria 105600 196436 65212 22.5229315721886
Z1 Battle Royale: Test Server 439700 1734 421 24.1392111368909
Sid Meier's Civilization V 8930 83539 50829 18.6515390569183
Half-Life Deathmatch: Source 360 1446 376 23.8090010976948
Deathmatch Classic 40 915 614 17.9529103989536
Rocket League 252950 186585 76375 21.2866975965926
Borderlands 2 49520 93342 53013 19.1333401660346
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege 359550 240870 67055 23.4670780222457
MONSTER HUNTER: WORLD 582010 59717 46108 16.9289865343728
Don't Starve Together 322330 67298 44821 18.0071174377224
Day of Defeat 30 1961 1840 15.4775059194949
Ricochet 60 2089 1332 18.3192049108448
Rust 252490 202193 70191 22.269259574718
Half-Life 2: Episode One 380 6138 2235 21.9921175206019
Dead by Daylight 381210 133229 49183 21.9112229458588
Day of Defeat: Source 300 6991 4686 17.9609488738546
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee 15700 1370 1803 12.9530412858494
HITMAN 2 863550 3995 8258 9.78127805435404
Half-Life 70 22059 6655 23.0469457407536
Half-Life 2: Episode Two 420 10670 3876 22.0060497731335
Half-Life: Opposing Force 50 4305 1191 23.4989082969432
Half-Life: Blue Shift 130 3303 904 23.5536011409555
ARK: Survival Evolved 346110 166026 44603 23.6471710922997
Team Fortress Classic 20 2770 1163 21.1289092295957
Wallpaper Engine 431960 60022 4315 27.9879385112766
Euro Truck Simulator 2 227300 129647 51930 21.4201688539848
Evolve Stage 2 273350 9231 35610 6.17582123503044
ARK: Survival Of The Fittest 407530 1850 6212 6.88414785413049
Left 4 Dead 500 13385 5418 21.3556347391374
Life is Strange - Episode 1 319630 86026 36820 21.0082542370122
Tomb Raider 203160 75628 21600 23.3352532192373
A Story About My Uncle 278360 9726 9493 15.1818512929913
Chivalry: Medieval Warfare 219640 42661 19740 20.5097674716751
Age of Empires II HD 221380 45322 11721 23.8357028908017
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 292030 184325 21221 26.9027371002111
Fallout 4 377160 89488 65947 17.2717856338662
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 10180 14350 18351 13.1647350233938
Cities: Skylines 255710 53848 19183 22.119921677096
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings Enhanced Edition 20920 34798 6069 25.5448161107984
Amnesia: The Dark Descent 57300 11135 10217 15.6449044585987
RoBoRumble 420970 8 85 2.58064516129032
Don't Starve 219740 49353 14125 23.3244588676392
Killing Floor 1250 31469 24867 16.7578457824482
BioShock 7670 15569 5284 22.3982160840167
Outlast 238320 29921 17836 18.7957786293109
Grand Theft Auto IV 12210 43118 10873 23.958437517364
Fallout: New Vegas 22380 51269 18411 22.0733352468427
FOR HONOR 304390 35447 24671 17.6887121993413
BioShock Infinite 8870 58462 24637 21.1056691416263
Insurgency 222880 71670 30019 21.1438798690124
Guns of Icarus Online 209080 8215 5992 17.3470824241571
LIMBO 48000 14589 17700 13.5547709746353
Saints Row: The Third 55230 30125 16502 19.3825465931756
The Forest 242760 99764 18956 25.2099056603774

Conclusions

The results show that on average, 72% of games are purchased through Steam, while 28% are purchased through third parties, including key resellers but also including retail copies. Depending on the game, this can go as low as just 9% of copies being sold through Steam and an effective Valve cut of 2.58% (a clear outlier). UPDATE: This outlier seems to have been caused by a bug, the real lowest should be 25% of copies sold on Steam, for an effective Valve cut of 6.17%. The "game" with the highest portion of copies sold through Steam in the top 100 was... Wallpaper Engine. I guess I didn't filter out software. Wallpaper Engine sells the vast majority of their copies directly through Steam, with an effective Valve cut of 27.98%. However, this should not be surprising since that particular piece of software does not seem to be available in many other places, if any.

For an average Valve cut, this data set approximates that Valve on average take a 20.07% split in revenue from games available on Steam, which is lower than many of their competing stores. However, as we previously said, Valve games do not make any sense being on this list, and once they are removed the average drops slightly to 19.78%. If anything is taken from this long post, that's probably the number to take. It is also worth noting that because of the new way Steam revenue sharing works, with popular games getting a better cut, this number likely overestimates the true value.

Final Notes

As I previously mentioned, the purpose of this was to calculate the amount Valve take from games distributed through Steam. This obviously has many limitations, like the fact that Valve have the financial burden of paying payment processing fees, or how the Steam payment cards they distribute in emerging markets are expensive for them to distribute (taking up to 15% of the value of the card). As a result, Valve themselves obviously do not get all the money from their part of any cut.

Another big point which has come up is how some people believe my numbers are misleading, as the 19.78% or 20.07% figures aren't what devs actually take home. My original intention was to focus on how much money Valve themselves take, and how once you account for key generation they actually take less than many of their competitors, and not what developers take home. I believed I addressed this by mentioning that other stores (where these steam keys are usually distributed) have cuts of their own, but it is worth giving it a second mention here apparently.

If we are to assume the highest a third party takes is 30% (which is true as far as we know) then the split that a developer takes back is 70%, compared to 30% to whatever stores they sold it on. That is the upper bound, a good lower bound is a little harder to calculate, and an accurate number is impossible as there is no way to calculate where each game was sold. The lowest cut that I can find for a third party is the 5% humble widget. However very few keys are likely to be sold this way. Instead, for my lower bound I am going to pick a 10% cut to the store, which is the default cut for Itch.io. If we assume all Steam copies sell at the 30% rate again (which as previously mentioned, is now an overestimate), and all third party sales are sold through Itch, here is what the above table would look like with these figures:

Game AppID Steam Non-Steam Store share (lower bound)
PLAYERUNKNOWN'S BATTLEGROUNDS 578080 824700 153479 26.8619444907323
PAYDAY 2 218620 213462 151291 21.7044685033434
Z1 Battle Royale 433850 147668 55148 24.5617702745346
Grand Theft Auto V 271590 399572 66556 27.1443037105688
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 72850 155071 97024 22.3025843432039
Terraria 105600 196436 65212 25.0152877147924
Z1 Battle Royale: Test Server 439700 1734 421 26.092807424594
Sid Meier's Civilization V 8930 83539 50829 22.4343593712789
Rocket League 252950 186585 76375 24.1911317310618
Borderlands 2 49520 93342 53013 22.7555601106898
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege 359550 240870 67055 25.6447186814971
MONSTER HUNTER: WORLD 582010 59717 46108 21.2859910229152
Don't Starve Together 322330 67298 44821 22.0047449584816
Day of Defeat 30 1961 1840 20.3183372796632
Rust 252490 202193 70191 24.846173049812
Dead by Daylight 381210 133229 49183 24.6074819639059
Day of Defeat: Source 300 6991 4686 21.9739659159031
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee 15700 1370 1803 18.6353608572329
HITMAN 2 863550 3995 8258 16.520852036236
ARK: Survival Evolved 346110 166026 44603 25.7647807281998
Wallpaper Engine 431960 60022 4315 28.6586256741844
Euro Truck Simulator 2 227300 129647 51930 24.2801125693232
Evolve Stage 2 273350 9231 35610 14.117214156687
ARK: Survival Of The Fittest 407530 1850 6212 14.5894319027537
Life is Strange - Episode 1 319630 86026 36820 24.0055028246748
Tomb Raider 203160 75628 21600 25.5568354794915
A Story About My Uncle 278360 9726 9493 20.1212341953275
Chivalry: Medieval Warfare 219640 42661 19740 23.6731783144501
Age of Empires II HD 221380 45322 11721 25.8904685938678
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 292030 184325 21221 27.9351580668074
Fallout 4 377160 89488 65947 21.5145237559108
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 10180 14350 18351 18.7764900155959
Cities: Skylines 255710 53848 19183 24.7466144513973
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings Enhanced Edition 20920 34798 6069 27.029877407199
Amnesia: The Dark Descent 57300 11135 10217 20.4299363057325
Don't Starve 219740 49353 14125 25.5496392450928
Killing Floor 1250 31469 24867 21.1718971882988
BioShock 7670 15569 5284 24.9321440560111
Outlast 238320 29921 17836 22.5305190862073
Grand Theft Auto IV 12210 43118 10873 25.9722916782427
Fallout: New Vegas 22380 51269 18411 24.7155568312285
FOR HONOR 304390 35447 24671 21.7924747995609
BioShock Infinite 8870 58462 24637 24.0704460944175
Insurgency 222880 71670 30019 24.0959199126749
Guns of Icarus Online 209080 8215 5992 21.5647216161047
LIMBO 48000 14589 17700 19.0365139830902
Saints Row: The Third 55230 30125 16502 22.9216977287838
The Forest 242760 99764 18956 26.8066037735849

As you can see, the share is between 20-30% across the board with a few exceptions dipping into the 18-19% range, with the remaining 80-70% to the dev. If you want to maximize the share to developers, buy through widgets or through Itch.io who offer the best share, and try and argue for a reduced cut across the board including from console manufacturers. However, there are other things which make this more complicated, like how developers get extra visibility from the metric boost that copies sold through Steam give them. See Paz's posts in this thread if you want to read more about that: https://www.resetera.com/threads/wo...bought-their-games-on-steam-or-itch-io.84549/.

Another thing which has come up is that I am somehow posting all this disingenuously. Don't do that. If I wanted to do that, I could post something which takes far less effort. If there is a problem, post it and I can either explain it, accept the limitation and try and improve it, or point out why it wasn't feasible.

EDIT:

This was featured on Ars Technica! https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...ets-less-than-30-percent-of-steam-game-sales/
 
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Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
That's some interesting math! Thanks for the thread, gives something to think about. I don't do math though, but I've definitely bought games from GMG and Humble Store.
 

Ganado

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,176
Good thread! Although this thread isn't directly related to EGS, I just have to bring it up. I don't think Epic takes any fee for the generated keys used in retail copies of Metro Exodus (no proof tho) and I'm sure the split between retail keys and EGS bought is skewed towards keys which would mean they effective cut Epic takes per sale on their platform is <~6% and if you add up the cash they got for the exclusivity into the mix, it's far lower, just like the total revenue when the game is not on Steam is far lower. However I'm just rambling about and have no proof of anything and this isn't scientific in anyway.

Disclaimer: I have never bought anything from EGS and never will.
 
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Deleted member 12790

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Oct 27, 2017
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that roughly 30% of all sales market is precisely what things like Epic Games Store exclusivity aims to crush. That market right there, is precisely why people are so upset with EGS. It's not about protecting "muh steam," it's about protecting that market. The "not steam" marketplace. EGS does nothing to foster this market place, the most valuable to me as a consumer. It actively works to harm it.

Good thread! Although this thread isn't directly related to EGS, I just have to bring it up. I don't think Epic takes any fee for the generated keys used in retail copies of Metro Exodus (no proof tho) and I'm sure the split between retail keys and EGS bought is skewed towards keys which would mean they effective cut Epic takes per sale on their platform is <~6% and if you add up the cash they got for the exclusivity into the mix, it's far lower, just like the total revenue when the game is not on Steam is far lower. However I'm just rambling about and have no proof of anything and this isn't scientific in anyway.

A key difference, however, is that Epic does not let publishers generate their own keys. Steam lets the dev/publisher freely generate and sell keys all they want, which is why this market exists in the first place.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Methodology nitpick: doesn't this rely on the assumption that Steam and third party buyers leave reviews on Steam at the same rate?

Edit: nvm I saw that you addressed that
 

Acidote

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,975
I've just checked my game activations and the VAST majority show as Retail.

375 things on the list and I don't think even 20% are Steam purchases.
 

bluexy

Comics Enabler & Freelance Games Journalist
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Oct 25, 2017
14,521
I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the intention behind this. Is the implication that Steam keys sold through other storefronts should in effect be treated as Steam sales because Valve bears the burden of the sale? Or that the 30% revenue share is a necessity to bear the imposed burden from other storefronts? That through offering the service of keys, Valve's effectively offering a much better revenue share?
 

Unkindled

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,247
Great work, people just love to ignore the fact that steam take's no cut from third party storefronts.
 

Ganado

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,176
A key difference, however, is that Epic does not let publishers generate their own keys. Steam lets the dev/publisher freely generate and sell keys all they want, which is why this market exists in the first place.
Yeah, true. As I said, it was just some dumb ramblings, I really don't like EGS but I just wanted to put it out there.
 

Gevin

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,823
I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the intention behind this. Is the implication that Steam keys sold through other storefronts should in effect be treated as Steam sales because Valve bears the burden of the sale? Or that the 30% revenue share is a necessity to bear the imposed burden from other storefronts? That through offering the service of keys, Valve's effectively offering a much better revenue share?

No it's to show an estimate of Steam's actual cut, which it turns out it's not the maligned 30% figure
 

Kyougar

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Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,361
To add to that:
- Valve eats the 5 to 8% additional fee on some payment methods.
- retail cards, which are big in Asia and developing countries cost 15% of the purchase price,

So even if a person buys a game directly from Steam, in many instances, Valve doesn't get 30%, which additionally, brings the overall figure down.
 

DeadlyVenom

Member
Apr 3, 2018
2,779
Great work, people just love to ignore the fact that steam take's no cut from third party storefronts.

People conveniently forget third party storefronts, or literally any other storefront, when talking about Steam. Especially in regards to it vs the Epic Games Store. As if they are the only two options.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the intention behind this. Is the implication that Steam keys sold through other storefronts should in effect be treated as Steam sales because Valve bears the burden of the sale? Or that the 30% revenue share is a necessity to bear the imposed burden from other storefronts? That through offering the service of keys, Valve's effectively offering a much better revenue share?
That is not true that Valve takes a 30% cut all the time, regardless of the situation.
 

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,986
Interesting calculation. I personally very rarely buy games directly through Steam because cheaper keys can be found elsewhere. If Valve's overall effective cut is ~20%, it would still be interesting to compare how much features and tools they are providing to devs compared to other launchers.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,969
I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the intention behind this. Is the implication that Steam keys sold through other storefronts should in effect be treated as Steam sales because Valve bears the burden of the sale? Or that the 30% revenue share is a necessity to bear the imposed burden from other storefronts? That through offering the service of keys, Valve's effectively offering a much better revenue share?
That when Tim Sweeney Tweets, "Our storefront is better for devs. They're coming to us because of the better cut!", he's completely full of shit, and people are eating it up.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,040
"For an average Valve cut, this data set approximates that Valve on average take a 20.07% split in revenue from games available on Steam, which is lower than many of their competing stores."

That doesn't mean the developer gets 79.93% though. As you said in the preceding paragraphs, though it's not clarified in that summary, the other key sellers take a cut up to 30% also. I don't think you have a breakdown of where the other keys are sold, but ultimately that means the dev is getting 75% give or take a few. What do you think that number is for the dev? Anyway, that's still a long way off the EGS cut.

Also re that recent change Steam made to give high revenue games a higher royalty cut, which was obviously only done to compete with EGS, you said that might skew the numbers. Presumably they only do that on revenue received by Steam.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,388
As soon as I discovered legit and reliable key sellers years ago, I stopped buying games directly from Steam (unless there's a sale). Why spend more money? Some of the savings can be $15-$20 off a new $60 title.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1849

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Oct 25, 2017
6,986
I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the intention behind this. Is the implication that Steam keys sold through other storefronts should in effect be treated as Steam sales because Valve bears the burden of the sale? Or that the 30% revenue share is a necessity to bear the imposed burden from other storefronts? That through offering the service of keys, Valve's effectively offering a much better revenue share?

The point was to try and get a more accurate reading of how much Valve actually take from games distributed through Steam, as the 30% figure is often quoted on news articles and on forum posts. The figures shown here suggest the actual number to not only be much lower, but also lower than a lot of other competing store fronts.

It also shows that a significant portion (roughly 30%) of the current market is third party sellers. They are the companies hurt most by Epic exclusivity deals, not Steam, as those games can no longer be sold there either and they are much less financially stable than Steam is.

Hehe... Shadow of the Tom Braider.
Shadow of the Tom Braider

You have no idea how long I spent looking through my OP and spreadsheet trying to find Tom Braider, only to figure out the problem was in the Twitter post. lol.
 
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bluexy

Comics Enabler & Freelance Games Journalist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
14,521
That when Tim Sweeney Tweets, "Our storefront is better for devs. They're coming to us because of the better cut!", he's completely full of shit, and people are eating it up.

I'm not sure how at all that seems relevant. If he's saying the Epic Storefront is better than the Steam storefront for revenue share, that's explicitly correct. The Steam storefront offers 70-30 (with the ups to 25, 20 for high sellers). Other storefronts that sell Steam keys are not Steam's storefront. Unless the point of this post is to argue they are all the same storefront, which I really don't think it's doing.
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,647
U.S.
Thank you for taking the time to write this up, it's really irritating to see people talk about this particularly complicated subject without knowing a damn thing.
Hopefully we'll see a little less misinformation floating around now.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,040
The point was to try and get a more accurate reading of how much Valve actually take from games sold on Steam, as the 30% figure is often quoted on news articles and on forum posts. The figures shown here suggest the actual number to not only be much lower, but also lower than a lot of other competing store fronts.

It also shows that a significant portion (roughly 30%) of the current market is third party sellers. They are the companies hurt most by Epic exclusivity deals, not Steam, as those games can no longer be sold there either.

You have no idea how long I spent looking through my OP and spreadsheet trying to find Tom Braider, only to figure out the problem was in the Twitter post.
Your first sentence, they take 30%. I think you meant, how much Valve gets from all Steam keys sold wherever.

A dev is free to choose where to sell. Nobody has a gun to their head. Ultimately, what's better for devs is going to better for the industry, as it means more games, more support, more companies staying afloat, more games being funded, etc.
 

Gevin

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,823
A dev is free to choose where to sell. Nobody has a gun to their head. Ultimately, what's better for devs is going to better for the industry, as it means more games, more support, more companies staying afloat, more games being funded, etc.

Maybe what's better for the devs is satisfying the customers
 

tuxfool

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,858
Your first sentence, they take 30%. I think you meant, how much Valve gets from all Steam keys sold wherever.

A dev is free to choose where to sell. Nobody has a gun to their head. Ultimately, what's better for devs is going to better for the industry, as it means more games, more support, more companies staying afloat, more games being funded, etc.
This trickle down attitude can fuck right off.

By your metric anytime anybody raises the price of anything, it's "good" for the industry, therefore good for the consumer.

Car dealers choose to universally raise prices across the board. It means they're more likely to survive, more cars, more funding.

Never mind the inflationary impact and the real hit to consumer spending power.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
A dev is free to choose where to sell. Nobody has a gun to their head. Ultimately, what's better for devs is going to better for the industry, as it means more games, more support, more companies staying afloat, more games being funded, etc.
This should be the crux of the conversation around EGS's benefits. I think it's clear that EGS doesn't provide anything over Steam to the consumer, but their exclusivity deals provide financial security to developers/publishers and help to mitigate the inherent risk in launching their games, and a better/guaranteed ROI is rarely going to be turned down.
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
Great thread, people definitely fail to account for Steam's key generation very frequently. Also, as mentioned:

To add to that:
- Valve eats the 5 to 8% additional fee on some payment methods.
- retail cards, which are big in Asia and developing countries cost 15% of the purchase price,

So even if a person buys a game directly from Steam, in many instances, Valve doesn't get 30%, which additionally, brings the overall figure down.

This is huge for regions where credit cards aren't popular or for people too young to have a credit card. Valve completely eats the retailer cut of the wallet cards.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,969
You can't answer? You're the one who said he's full of shit.
Do you just want me to respond with a quote of what's in the OP or something?

Valve gives free keys to big stores like Greenmangaming, Humble, itch.io. Valve gets nothing from these sales, but their servers are still used for downloads, updates, cloud saves, etc... These other stores then decide their own cut. Most of the time, devs are encouraged to sell their games cheaper on these stores due to them getting a bigger cut. This encourages people to shop for Steam keys on other shops besides Steam itself. Based on the data in the OP, the cut that Valve takes works out to be a lot less than 30% when you take into account not only the smaller cuts they take from games that sell more copies, but the 0% cut they take from the games sold elsewhere.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,321
This should be the crux of the conversation around EGS's benefits. I think it's clear that EGS doesn't provide anything over Steam to the consumer, but their exclusivity deals provide financial security to developers/publishers and help to mitigate the inherent risk in launching their games, and a better/guaranteed ROI is rarely going to be turned down.


In theory, I'd agree. But not every of these games needed financial security and would've likely reached these sales easily on Steam, if not more. I doubt for instance Borderlands 3 needs a "financial security". Very few games that got a deal were actually in a position of a publisher/developer needing security.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
So if devs decide their games will cost $200 now because that's better for them, everybody wins?
Dumb example, because raising the price like that would lower sales, so it'd be worse for devs too.

The industry is always seeking ways to improve ROI, especially when development is becoming more volatile. Part of that equation is managing the equilibrium between what's beneficial for the industry and how generous they can be to players.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,040
Do you just want me to respond with a quote of what's in the OP or something?

Valve gives free keys to big stores like Greenmangaming, Humble, itch.io. Valve gets nothing from these sales, but their servers are still used for downloads, updates, cloud saves, etc... These other stores then decide their own cut. Most of the time, devs are encouraged to sell their games cheaper on these stores due to them getting a bigger cut. This encourages people to shop for Steam keys on other shops besides Steam itself. Based on the data in the OP, the cut that Valve takes works out to be a lot less than 30% when you take into account not only the smaller cuts they take from games that sell more copies, but the 0% cut they take from the games sold elsewhere.
It ends up being somewhere around 75% to the dev for all Steam keys sold, give or take. On the EGS, it's 88%. You said that proves Tim Sweeney is full of shit for saying the EGS is a better deal for devs. Last I checked, 88 > 75.
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
This should be the crux of the conversation around EGS's benefits. I think it's clear that EGS doesn't provide anything over Steam to the consumer, but their exclusivity deals provide financial security to developers/publishers and help to mitigate the inherent risk in launching their games, and a better/guaranteed ROI is rarely going to be turned down.

They can't do that for every developer. In fact every single exclusive so far, with perhaps one exception (Super Giant Games) has no need for that kind of help. They aren't struggling with a budget, they are big players with big tent pole releases. It's not about lending a helping hand to develoeprs, it's about keeping the games away from Steam, so here's a truck load of money.
 

bluexy

Comics Enabler & Freelance Games Journalist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
14,521
The point was to try and get a more accurate reading of how much Valve actually take from games sold on Steam, as the 30% figure is often quoted on news articles and on forum posts. The figures shown here suggest the actual number to not only be much lower, but also lower than a lot of other competing store fronts.

It also shows that a significant portion (roughly 30%) of the current market is third party sellers. They are the companies hurt most by Epic exclusivity deals, not Steam, as those games can no longer be sold there either and they are much less financially stable than Steam is.

I think this is much more disingenuously posed than I initially assumed. To say that a reseller sale is the same as a Valve sale isn't accurate or honest. And then to imply that the revenue share earned from those sales deserves to be used in evaluating Valve's revenue share is equally dishonest. You'd need to do so much more than what you've done here, showing the actual financial burden Steam takes by redeeming keys from outside sales; you'd have to establish that Valve doesn't actually profit as a result of outside sales by bringing more users into the platform. It's nowhere near so simple of math. It's nowhere near what you'd need to draw the conclusions you're claiming.
 

voOsh

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,665
A dev is free to choose where to sell. Nobody has a gun to their head. Ultimately, what's better for devs is going to better for the industry, as it means more games, more support, more companies staying afloat, more games being funded, etc.

This statement likely has some truth in it but surely Epic isn't better for ALL devs if small/new devs can't even get their games on EGS. I don't think Epic's deals will lead to more games being funded.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Dumb example, because raising the price like that would lower sales, so it'd be worse for devs too.

The industry is always seeking ways to improve ROI, especially when development is becoming more volatile. Part of that equation is managing the equilibrium between what's beneficial for the industry and how generous they can be to players.
I exaggerated the figure because that user implied that whatever the devs decide, is good for the overall health of the industry.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,361
Dumb example, because raising the price like that would lower sales, so it'd be worse for devs too.

The industry is always seeking ways to improve ROI, especially when development is becoming more volatile. Part of that equation is managing the equilibrium between what's beneficial for the industry and how generous they can be to players.

killing off the sales market does the same thing. There will always be people who never buy full price or who have a budget. So when GMG can't do 20% sales on newly released games, the player who only buys on GMG will either
- not buy the game
- buy it later when it is possibly even more discounted because of its age
- buys the game full price but has no money for the indie game he would have bought.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,040
To add to that:
- Valve eats the 5 to 8% additional fee on some payment methods.
- retail cards, which are big in Asia and developing countries cost 15% of the purchase price,

So even if a person buys a game directly from Steam, in many instances, Valve doesn't get 30%, which additionally, brings the overall figure down.
Do you know for sure the 70% cut to the dev is before such costs? Or do they get 70% of the net revenue after payment processing fees?