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Surakian

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,860
Classic case of religion and polarization of two powerful institutions fucking up everything lol

But really, letting go of their stupid dogmatic ways. Their entire Order was wrong for how they handled force sensitive children, their role in the war, their endorsement of using the clones, their backwards and unhealthy views of attachments. It's no wonder the galaxy forgets they ever existed in less than 20 years.

Honestly the whole Jedi vs Sith thing needed to end. the polarization of good and evil…bunch of bs.

There were more issues than just the Jedi, though. The senate was corrupt at worst and apathetic at best, the Republic was crumbling under bureaucracy by time the prequel films came around.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,476
Richmond, VA
That falls under him being the weird kookie one that is ignored.

Keep in mind that it can't be one singular decision. It would be literal years, decades even, of Palpatine weakening the Jedi under their noses. Yoda would have to either miss ALL of that like every other idiot jedi, or else he wouldn't at which point he'd have to point this out to others, but be over ruled, not once, but dozens, hundreds, even thousands of times. Ignored, over and over and over again.

If the other Jedi masters are ignoring him to this extent, then he's basically a Jedi master as a figurehead role.

Agree to disagree. It is ridiculously easy to rewrite it in a way that makes Yoda not look incompetent. The Jedi Order was essentially a blank slate.

Any voice in the room should have said the obvious to Lucas. "You want to take the wise Jedi master, a beloved character, and turn him into an incompetent failure?"
 

ZiZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,716
Let the separatists go, or actually listen to them and give them what they want to keep them as part of the republic.

Edit: that was probably out of the Jedi's jurisdiction, but they could've worked towards it and been more diplomats than generals.
 

Katbobo

Member
May 3, 2022
5,385
Agree to disagree. It is ridiculously easy to rewrite it in a way that makes Yoda not look incompetent. The Jedi Order was essentially a blank slate.

Any voice in the room should have said the obvious to Lucas. "You want to take the wise Jedi master, a beloved character, and turn him into an incompetent failure?"

I think it's possible to have both be possible. Yoda was a big part of why the Jedi order was so completely inflexible that it couldn't handle someone like Anakin despite all his cries for help, and their ideals and place in the Republic was not equipped to do the job they had put upon themselves. The Jedi Order was at much at its failure point as the Republic was. Palpatine just tore at the failings that were already there in the Republic and hastened its demise.

Yoda having survived that downfall and had time to reflect on what happened, what actions and events led to the Empire and Darth Vader, and then use that wisdom to help guide Luke to be a better Jedi that avoids the failings of the old -- i think that is fully compatible with his failings in prequels/Clone Wars.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,220
Really? This happened? Fucking star wars, man.


If he was gonna be the voice of reason, he would need to be in a position where he would be ignored. Either as a non-master rank, or a master but a wierd kookie one that no everyone thought has gone senile and they just kind of keep him around out of tradition, like he's a holdover but not actually able to sway anyone's mind on anything.

There's no way to have Yoda be meaningful master on the Jedi council AND not have him be representative of the utter failure of the Jedi at the same time.

There had to be connective tissue between his standing in the prequels and his status in ESB, so yeah he needed to be an utter failure that went nuts on a remote swamp planet. People blame the writing of the prequels for "retconning" the Jedi Order into bumbling fools, but really the seeds were planted as far back as ESB with Yoda
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,097
These clowns discovered a clone army being grown and trained on their behalf without their prior knowledge and, instead of just shutting the whole thing down, decided to just deploy them in battle.

The Jedi were not smart.

Not only that but the clones all look like this apparently high ranking separatist, who both Obi-Wan and Windu get to see up close and personal. And who they know has tried to kill a Senator on behalf of the separatists and tried to kill Obi-Wan himself.


Macb9.png

Jango-Fett-1-Retina_c38dabbc.jpeg
 
Aug 31, 2019
2,527
I'm watching the Clone Wars now and there were a lot of signs.
The Clone Wars TV show didn't exist when the movies were written, so whatever happens in the TV show is irrelevant to events in the movies, because this is fiction that people make up at the time of its creation, not a documentary with a complete hidden truth we are uncovering.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Did he blow it? I don't think you're supposed to come away from things like the prequels and clone wars thinking highly of the Jedi order. They're blind, arrogant, close-minded fools.

Nah, this is the argument prequel apologists (not saying you are one) always make. Lucas clearly wants us to regard the Jedi as heroes that we root for. Evidence: how their exploits are depicted in the films, the Sith as the antagonists plus the fuckton of merchandise marketed at children.

There is obviously also an attempt to depict the council as stubborn and bureaucratic, but this idea that we are not meant to think highly of the Jedi at all or enjoy seeing them in action simply doesn't hold any water. It's a retroactive cope by fans trying to make sense of the Jedi's confused depiction in the prequels.
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,529
Be smarter and have more autonomy.

Palpatine clearly had way too much power when the war started and having Jedis as his subordinates allowed him to use them as their pawns, same as for the clone army. Also, try to find ways to de-escalate the war, although this depended on what the separatists wanted and I have no idea what they wanted.

Palpatine basically had the power to do what he wanted and was able to reach the goal, with or without Anakin.
 

Katbobo

Member
May 3, 2022
5,385
Nah, this is the argument prequel apologists (not saying you are one) always make. Lucas clearly wants us to regard the Jedi as heroes that we root for. Evidence: how their exploits are depicted in the films, the Sith as the antagonists plus the fuckton of merchandise marketed at children.

There is obviously also an attempt to depict the council as stubborn and bureaucratic, but this idea that we are not meant to think highly of the Jedi at all or enjoy seeing them in action simply doesn't hold any water. It's a retroactive cope by fans trying to make sense of the Jedi's confused depiction in the prequels.

I was too young to see the prequels when they came out, so my experience is only with having seen them recently alongside Clone Wars as a follow along with A More Civilized Age. So that very much changes how i'll come away viewing it. A ton of Clone Wars and how it depicts the story of Anakin and Ashoka feels like it's focused on the failings of the Jedi Order as an organization even as you root for the characters within it.
 

Herr Starr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,227
Norway
Anakin is a distraction, though an important one. The Jedi could have prolonged the life of the Old Republic by actually taking things seriously instead of assuming that tradition will save the day. They knew that some dark force (Palpatine) was manipulating them from behind the scenes from very early on, but they didn't bother doing much of an investigation into this, and they ignored the warning signs they saw all around them.

Had they nipped Palpatine in the bud early enough, which was entirely within their power if they weren't so blinded by their own arrogance, the Republic's fall could probably have been averted and, while Anakin would still not exactly be happy, he wouldn't have an actual Sith Lord whispering sweet nothings into his ear during his entire childhood.
 

AndrewDean84

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,595
Fontana, California
Not been closed minded fools. Their dogma was always doomed to fail. The Jedi failed the Galaxy because of their arrogance and rules. They especially failed Anakin and Obiwan. It's like every chance they had, they shit on Anakin. They are just as responsible for the creation of Darth Vader as the Emperor.
 
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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Be smarter and have more autonomy.

Palpatine clearly had way too much power when the war started and having Jedis as his subordinates allowed him to use them as their pawns, same as for the clone army. Also, try to find ways to de-escalate the war, although this depended on what the separatists wanted and I have no idea what they wanted.

Palpatine basically had the power to do what he wanted and was able to reach the goal, with or without Anakin.
Except it was the senate that gave him more power increasingly before the war and during, not the Jedi. You can argue that the Jedi should have stood up and walked away but realistically that would have only potentially saved themselves (potentially, I could see it really easy for Palpatine to turn the public against the Jedi if they stepped away) not the republic. There's parts I blame the Jedi for, especially for Yoda who entwined the Jedi order too closely to the Republic so they weren't able to criticise it or not follow its orders but that's not the direct reason why the Republic falls. Palpatine didn't use Sith powers to get his way, he slowly dismantled government checks and balances and took advantage of corruption, it was not the Jedi who were in charge of stopping that but the Senate who were absolutely willing to ignore the big warning signs when they had power to stop it.
 

dapperbandit

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,162
It pains me to say it but Padme was correct - the Separatists could have been negotiated with - though it would have taken some perseverance. There were so many individuals in that camp that could have outed Sidious and effective diplomacy could have prevented a Galactic Civil War, the smokescreen that blinds the Jedi and laid the foundations for all Palpatines manipulations.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
More focus on diplomacy with the separatists probably would have helped, but ultimately the separatists were at the whims of Palpatine so it probably would have always come to war there.

Anakin was probably always going to fall and I can't really think of a way to prevent this, other than Obi Wan not leaving him on Coruscant in Ep 3. If Obi Wan was there I think he and Mace could have taken Palpatine (and it's possible that Anakin wouldn't have attacked Mace and Obi Wan in this scenario). But there's no way to know that Order 66 was right around the corner with that (and was likely sped up due to Mace's confrontation with Palpatine anyway). Maybe another way to prevent his fall would have been NOT asking him to spy on Palpatine, which shook his trust in the Jedi for sure.

The biggest factor leading up to the immediate fall of the republic was that the Jedi were largely all separated and fighitng on different planets so they could not adequately respond to the threat on Coruscant + were more vulnerable to Order 66 since they didn't really have any allies with them other than the Clones.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,424
Based on the new expanded universe, take an active role in galactic politics and assure that they protected sentient beings the Galaxy over. As described in the movies, nothing much.
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,529
Except it was the senate that gave him more power increasingly before the war and during, not the Jedi. You can argue that the Jedi should have stood up and walked away but realistically that would have only potentially saved themselves (potentially, I could see it really easy for Palpatine to turn the public against the Jedi if they stepped away) not the republic. There's parts I blame the Jedi for, especially for Yoda who entwined the Jedi order too closely to the Republic so they weren't able to criticise it or not follow its orders but that's not the direct reason why the Republic falls. Palpatine didn't use Sith powers to get his way, he slowly dismantled government checks and balances and took advantage of corruption, it was not the Jedi who were in charge of stopping that but the Senate who were absolutely willing to ignore the big warning signs when they had power to stop it.

Which is why they needed more autonomy to accuse Palpatine real's intentions and find a way to interfere with the Republic x Separatist issue as peacekeepers instead of generals of the republic.

Had they done nothing, however, the Republic would indeed crumble, as the Jedi were more obstacles for Palpatine final goal instead of tools or an important part of the plan. In the end the Republic was in dire need for stronger institutions to prevent Palpatine of forming the Empire (although it's only in ANH that the Empire has actual full control of the galaxy) and more robusts mechanisms to prevent the formation of a separatist faction.

Of course, the separatist faction is led by Palpatine himself, but he could only form it because probably there were governments/organizations that were already very unhappy with the Republic to begin with. I still have no idea what were the final goals of the separatists though lmao
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
32,769
Palpatine took power politically, which was a space where the Jedi couldn't easily interfere with him. Had Valorum figured it out and asked the Jedi to take care of it then he'd just get accused of trying to use the Jedi to defeat his political opponents. Had they tried to call him out they'd have been accused of becoming political and using their influence to put a finger on the scale.

His position as a senator shielded him from the Jedi until the very last moment, his plan was very very good.
 

Burly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,075
Maybe get more than three people together when you go try and arrest the Sith Lord who has taken over the government? Like maybe he's got guards, he is the chancellor after all.

Also should have trained the younglings in Psycho Crusher lightsaber defense.
 
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thecouncil

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,339
My biggest issue is with Yoda. He didn't need to shit on Yoda. Yoda could have been the voice of reason ignored by other idiots and I would have felt better about it.
yoda and obi wan are still asshole idiots in the OT, tbh. obi in empire completely ignoring leia's existence. both him and yoda trying to keep luke from saving his friends. in jedi, yoda still being mad luke left to save his friends but then telling him he has to kill his dad to become a jedi. then obi following that convo up by getting mad at luke for not wanting to kill his dad, again ignoring leia by saying luke is their only hope. this is putting aside the current knowledge that neither obi or yoda did anything to kill vader, especially obi wan who has twice just walked away after winning a duel with him.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,416
At that point? Nothing. The Republic had already fallen, it was just not apparent, yet.

What the Jedi could have done was damage control. Move the kids somewhere safe, probably abandon the temple on Coruscant for several smaller locations around the galaxy.

Oh, and also not been a jerk to Anakin for no reason.
Last thing is a high key, for me. Jedi did a whole lot of "holier than thou" shit all the time to him, talked down to him and then started in on Ahsoka during the Clone Wars just because she had been accused of doing something they had no real proof of. Then when she was finally cleared, not even a sorry. She made the right decision to leave the order (for many reasons, clearly) and you could tell that it weighed on Anakin.
 

SpudBud

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
637
Nothing. It was a failed institution long before the prequels, and the Jedi weren't capable of righting the ship at any point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,326
Not go to war, the institution was stretched and warped moving from advocacy and diplomatic missions to being generals of "disposable" life in a war.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,017
I've watched the Prequels multiple times and (most of) the Clone Wars, yet I still couldn't tell you what the Separatists actually wanted. Do they just want to leave the Republic? So...let them leave?
They (thousands of star systems) wanted to leave the Galactic Republic and not have to pay Republic taxes when trading. That's why they were secretly supported by several corporations within the galaxy. The entire war (Republic attacked first) was orchestrated by Palpatine so that he could secure control of the senate and ultimately destroy the Jedi. So there really could never have been a peaceful secession.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,629
They (thousands of star systems) wanted to leave the Galactic Republic and not have to pay Republic taxes when trading. That's why they were secretly supported by several corporations within the galaxy. The entire war (Republic attacked first) was orchestrated by Palpatine so that he could secure control of the senate and ultimately destroy the Jedi. So there really could never have been a peaceful secession.
Truly, a riveting set-up for a thrilling space adventure.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,202
Get Columbo on the case.

YES. Instead of making a star wars what if, just make a "star wars: what if columbus was on the case."


Also I don't know, the Jedi meant well but they obviously had issues too. If you want to go for a big change that could let the republic continue to degrade slowly instead, Have Mace Windu wait for some god damn backup from characters with plot armor.
 

mikeys_legendary

The Fallen
Sep 26, 2018
3,009
They could have NOT served as generals and commanders for an army of slave soldiers grown right under their noses. That would have been a good start.
 

zero_fm

Member
Mar 11, 2022
1,288
The issue there is that the choice of aligning with the Republic is them interfering in politics. They could have been on their side of things while remaining autonomous, but chose to help them in an official capacity.

I think the biggest problem is that instead of being enforcers of the Republic, they became enforcers FOR the Republic.
Pretty much this. Do we have any story detailing how the Jedi became part of the Republic?
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,629
They would have had to take out Palpatine, possibly twice. They would have had to somehow figure out he was Sith and either kill him or spread word of his misdeeds far enough that the Senate knows/cares and impeaches him. Not impossible since there's gotta be evidence of him playing both sides for YEARS.

If they don't kill him, he's also in charge of the Seperatists AND still has Order 66 in his back pocket so then they'd also need to win the war for real, no cheating by having him let Anakin take out all their leaders.
 

Praetorpwj

Member
Nov 21, 2017
4,360
Figured out who benefitted from the blockade of Naboo given that it was revealed to be a Sith plot and not a simple trade dispute.

Honestly if anyone had uncovered Palpatine, at any point up to the moment he gave Order 66, the Republic would have saved. Anakin was and always has been a jobber and irrelevant to the fall.
 

Sayuz

Member
Apr 29, 2019
954
There was no way for the Jedi to save the Republic while being part of the same Republic that was failing. The moment they integrated themselves into the politics and bureaucracy all those years ago was the moment the seeds for their failure were planted.

And even if they could "save" the Republic, by the time of TPM the Republic isn't even worth saving. It's a government where corporations are awarded senators and are allowed to blockade sovereign planets to protest taxation. That would be like if Amazon encircled Rhode Island and didn't let anyone in or out because they didn't like digital platforms having to pay sales tax. And in this situation, it's entirely legal. Sure, when the Trade Federation invaded Naboo they crossed a line, and that was the whole reason they wanted Amidala to sign a treaty legalizing it (whether or not the Republic would have recognized a treaty signed under duress as binding is another matter, though I wouldn't doubt it), but the fact that they could even go all the way up that line, and no one thought anything wrong with it shows something. The fact that Chancellor Valorum had to send two Jedi in secret and circumvent the senate in order to get anything done shows how useless and corrupt as an institution the Republic had become.

There's a reason the Separatists wanted out of the Republic. Dooku didn't make them leave, he just organized the uprising. But it was something they were already feeling to begin with. Why would they want to be part of a government that exploits their resources and taxes them, but gives them no protection or real representation in return. Heck, a lot of planets even had to rely on the Trade Federation for protection, since they at least had an interest in keeping pirates at bay. Their grievances were real. Same with Dooku. Him leaving the Jedi Order was because he lost faith in the Republic, and rightfully so. No matter what the Separatists and Dooku did later on, their reasons for leaving were legitimate.

And anyone who thinks "The Jedi were fools for using an army they just discovered!" doesn't realize that it's not the Jedi's army. The Clone Army belongs to the Republic. The Senate votes Palpatine emergency powers, which he uses to create a Grand Army of the Republic. At this point the Republic already know the Separatists have an army and are preparing to put a gun to the Republic's head in order to forcefully allow them to succeed, which is why they grant Palpatine that power to begin with. So once he orders the clones to be used, they're going off to fight the Separatists, whether or not the Jedi go along. And given that the Jedi are the historical protectors of the Republic and have fought in prior wars, there's not much reason for them not to go and fight...and especially since the enemy is former Jedi himself. But again, whether or not they go, the Clone Wars are happening, even if they sit on the sidelines. And even if somehow them not fighting alongside the clones prevents everything, in the worst case scenario the Republic simply falls to the Separatists and is replaced externally instead of internally. The biggest difference in that scenario is that Palpatine simply becomes the ruler behind the scenes instead of the face of this new Empire, but in practice the outcome isn't much different.

In the end the Republic couldn't be saved. Dooku was right about that. And it probably wasn't even worth saving, either.

Weren't Jedi convinced Dooku was Maul's master? They didn't expect another Sith.

Yeah, in the "Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir" series based on the unfinished TCW episodes, the Jedi eventually come to the conclusion that Dooku trained Maul, and Maul is his apprentice, which they inform Palpatine of (who must find it superbly amusing). It's basically a matter of them misinterpreting events (they find Maul and Dooku working together, and don't realize it's an temporary alliance of convince), as well as trying to make all the pieces fit together, even if they have to force them, in order for them not to have to admit to worse truths.
 

boontobias

Avenger
Apr 14, 2018
9,538
The Jedi should've done a coup and took over. The stupid Imperial Senate let Sheev become Chancellor for live.
 

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
15,281
As said above the fall wasn't really about the Jedi. However it is true the Jedi failed to find Sith corruption - so they kind of screwed up like, their one job. (From a certain point of view.)

Like a lot of things in SW, this has also been retconned with debatable results.

Originally the Jedi were growing weaker because they had "lost connection to the Force". This was why they couldn't sense exactly what was coming and couldn't find Sith lords under their noses. The reason for their lost connection was implied to have been their rigid traditions taking the soul out of their practices. Qui Gon Jinn was a follower of "the Living Force" and was stronger. He was drawn to Anakin because the Living Force indicated Anakin would change things. (Ha ha.)

The Living Force, IIRC, was intended to be a path where one did what the Force wanted, rather than trying to connect to the Force within a particular dogma and force one's self to only feel certain things. Essentially, what the Force was yelling at everyone diverged from what the Jedi Order was willing to "hear" at some point. And so they experienced a "loss of connection" to it.

The recent retcon I believe, has it that Sidious had discovered that the Jedi temple on Coruscant had in fact been built over an older Sith temple when the Sith were driven out. Sidious used the latent corruption in the temple to poison the Jedi above and weaken their connection to the Force. IMO this is kind of... eh, as it removes the philosophical underpinnings of why the Jedi screwed up. They lose their agency to make bad decisions and suffer the consequences.
Man, the sequel trilogy was so close to going towards the Living Force theory. If that was what Rey decided to do to awaken the Force for everyone... it could have gone full circle in an amazing way.