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etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,810
So with the remake of Bowser's Inside Story releasing shortly, I thought it would be fun to talk about the direction of the Mario and Luigi series. What we'd like to see, what we like, what we hate. So I thought I'd share my thoughts and maybe you can share yours.


My Loves:

1. The Combat System

I love love love the combat system! I think it's brill, it's hard to find other turn-based RPGs that emulate the engaging combat of this series. Not only do you have to monitor HP, Items, and Bro Points, but you have to pay attention to your enemies and their attacks so that you can figure out how to dodge or counter them effectively. It's radical. I wish other RPGs took that chance although I think indie RPGs are catching on (Undertale in particular).

2. The Writing

The writing is extremely witty and charming. It takes these generic characters (more on that later) and brings a little life to them. I love it.

My Dislikes:

1. The artstyle transition from sprites to the new engine

I hate the new engine so much. Hate it. The characters feel generic and unexpressive and I think it is nowhere more apparent than in the remakes. The sprites in Superstar Saga were gorgeous and clever and full of life, and to go from that, to these generic 3D models was such a let-down. It really feels like what happened with the NSMB games where we lost a lot of charm and creativity to generic environments and character designs.

2. The Characters and Plot
The running school of thought are that the M and L games are meant to replace the Paper Mario RPGs. So where are all the creative characters? Dream Team had some cool new characters before Paper Jam came out and gave us generic toads everywhere. Where did they go? Why can't we have more of them? I don't know if Miyamoto was the one who demanded Alpha Dream reign themselves in after Super Paper Mario's abstract art exhibit-esque characters but I want them back! Give us more Fawfuls and weird Pink and Yellow toads and new regions of the Mario world.

This leads me to the plot. The cool thing about the Paper Mario games is that they provided a clever plot with these characters that could even be genuinely touching at times with awesome side stories around people like Vivian or Admiral Bobbery or even Tippi the tutorial butterfly. If I'm going to be investing 20 or more hours into an RPG, I want a plot that goes beyond making me laugh sometimes into making me think or making me sad or hopeful. Now, even with the clever beats and bits found in Dream Team, we're back to Bowser kidnaps Peach, save Peach. Give Alpha Dream free reign to be creative! I think they can do it. Hell, I'd love to see them write their own unique IP and world.



But what do you think ERA? What would you like to see?
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,068
I'm way too distracted by the title not bothering to say Mario & Luigi.

I guess I would just like something that feels impactful, like nintendo throwing their weight behind the game to make something special. Currently they feel to me like so-so episodes.
 

YuriLowell

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,546
I got about 5 hours into paper jam before feeling fatigued with the series.

Does Paper Jam pickup at any point?
 
OP
OP
etrain911

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,810
I'm way too distracted by the title not bothering to say Mario & Luigi.

I guess I would just like something that feels impactful, like nintendo throwing their weight behind the game to make something special. Currently they feel to me like so-so episodes.

I would totally edit the title if I could figure out how. I didn't want the thread title to be too long. I think I agree with you though, they feel very throw-away.
 

Rattlethyhead

Member
Jan 7, 2019
233
Honestly, I'm not happy with the direction. I stopped buying the games at Inside, and frankly, I haven't missed 'em.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
Apparently, Miyamoto thinks interesting characters are a no no. So get rid of him even though he's the goat.

Other than that, just give a sprite-based switch entry and also give me paper mario entry. I dont care that they are similar and I dout anyone else does either. The difference will simply be the fact that one is Mario and Luigi the other is Paper Mario and interesting sidekicks
 

neufel

Member
Oct 29, 2017
314
Switzerland
They usually feel a little too slow, but that makes them great games for a certain population.
I don't think they lost something with new entries, but I do not enjoy what I once considered the best pace ever. When I was 12 or so, some RPGs lost me if I stopped playing for a few weeks. The one-sentence long plot in Mario + Luigi made it really easy to pick up and play. I think that's what they're going for, and my new playstyle might hurt the game.

EDIT: I just realized the Mario & Luigi superstar saga came out when I was 15, so... yeah, I don't know what I got wrong there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
It's been bad since Dreamteam.
The combat hasn't really changed and a lot of the games meld together.

Mario's "the adventure isn't over yet!" Structure is grueling in a JRPG too.

Hope it shifts to an action rpg like KH
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,583
I agree about the art direction. This new style is a blurry mess. Looking at Bowsers Inside Story side by side, it's crazy that anyone can prefer the new one
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
but I want them back! Give us more Fawfuls

This is just my theory, so it's possible that I might end up wrong but I suspect that Fawfuls might be returning for the next game given that the last two games were remake where Fawful appeared front and center as the villain. Especially since they opted to skip doing a remake of Partner in Time as Fawful only had a cameo appearance in there and it was optional and minor.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
27,176
I'm over them. There's been too many over the years and while there's still elements that I enjoy, they peaked with Bowser's Inside Story. I wouldn't mind one bit if they gave the series a rest and tried their hand at an original IP or a different Nintendo world. Unless it's Wario & Waluigi RPG

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AndreGX

GameXplain
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,815
San Francisco
Swap it out for Wario & Waluigi: Partners in Crime for a fresh start and so Mario can return to making great Paper Marios again
 

Aeana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
Bowser's Inside Story is really the pinnacle of everything, and it's been a slide downward since. Dream Team had promise, but it's way longer than it needed to be, and not interesting enough to support the length. Paper Jam was not really what I wanted. I'm playing the BIS remake right now and it just feels like they ran it through a soul-sucking machine. The games had so much more personality before they moved to 3D.
 

sschol

Member
Oct 27, 2017
455
The series delivers pretty well most of the time, but I wish they were a little more daring. I like all of the games individual gimmicks, but ever since the style change the games have generally felt dull. It could just be me, though.
 

JangleLuke

Member
Oct 4, 2018
1,604
My first game in the series was Dream Team and I've been a huge fan ever since.

The series' asthetics peaked with the gorgeous Dream Team and have meandered ever since thanks to asset re-use and weaker art direction.
(I'm expecting for the next title on Switch to go full 3D, sprites just won't cut it anymore)

The music, well, it's freakin' Yoko Shimomura, it has yet to disappoint.

The gameplay I find brilliant, it's the only RPG series that has ever resonated well with me, I love the battle system to bits.

In short, no major complaints for me: I loved Dream Team, really liked Paper Jam and I'm looking forward to buying BiS DX.
 

Rodento

Member
Dec 28, 2017
130
Superstar Saga is an incredible game and probably my favourite Mario RPG, as I love its dynamic combat with the bros. attacks, the Beanbean Kingdom acting as a twisted version of the Mushroom Kingdom full of weird and hysterical characters, and the great interactions between the brothers and how you use both to progress in each zone.

Partners in Time is not that great but it has its moments, and Bowser's Inside Story was a great back to form being basically Bowser RPG... but the other entries in the franchise are just flat boring.

They went from a refreshing take of the Mario world and characters to uninspired environments, stories and characters, combined attacks that became tedious minigames that take too long to land an attack, and a weird pace that really hurts the adventure with some long and dull areas.

Basically, I love the first and third games, but I think the series has lost its charm and what made it special. It would be nice to see a new entry with better pace and a bunch of weird characters and situations that could return that refreshing vibe of Superstar Saga.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
49,774
the series needs a LONG rest. they really milked the series way too much on the 3DS, and never could get close to the masterpiece that was BIS. alphadream needs to work on something else, it's clear that they've exhausted all their ideas in the mario universe, they need to work on either a new IP or an RPG based on another nintendo series.
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
Swap it out for Wario & Waluigi: Partners in Crime for a fresh start and so Mario can return to making great Paper Marios again

Personally speaking I actually prefer the Mario and Luigi series more, I love the bros dynamic and I love the battle system over Paper Mario's one. However, if I am willing to let that slide if instead of swapping it out for Wario and Waluigi they instead swap it out for Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,884
I honestly liked Dream Team and Paper Jam, but the series totally needs a break. They overdid it on 3DS and should probably do something different with Mario RPGs in the future. That being said, I'm still probably going pick up the BiS remake soon.

If the series were to continue though, I'd want them to bring back playable Bowser and have him fight alongside Bowser Jr
 

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,091
The first game was excellent, battle system was like a more engaging take on the simple Paper Mario formula, game had a snappy brisk pace, a unique hook with controlling both bros and the controls corresponding to each one.
A setting that didn't rely on usual Mario tropes, personality out the wazoo, perfect GBA game.

Then every* sequel managed to find a way to diminish this formula and now I never want to see another, funny how that turned out.

(* BiS fared a bit better, but it also highlighted to me personally how tired the Mario Bros mechanics had gotten when you had the Bowser side of things propping the game up)
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,940
Personally speaking I actually prefer the Mario and Luigi series more, I love the bros dynamic and I love the battle system over Paper Mario's one. However, if I am willing to let that slide if instead of swapping it out for Wario and Waluigi they instead swap it out for Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong.
oh shit that'd be pretty dope
I was always on the W&W train but that's an even better idea
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
22,961
It's been bad since Dreamteam.
The combat hasn't really changed and a lot of the games meld together.

Mario's "the adventure isn't over yet!" Structure is grueling in a JRPG too.

Hope it shifts to an action rpg like KH
The combat is the best part of the series though, why change that to an ARPG, especially one that plays like Kingdom Hearts? There are so many ARPGs that play better than Kingdom Hearts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
The combat is the best part of the series though, why change that to an ARPG, especially one that plays like Kingdom Hearts? There are so many ARPGs that play better than Kingdom Hearts.
Because all the games play the same. Turning to action rpg would allow them to evolve the franchise a lot more.
I mention KH since it's wacky and cartoon-y. Bro moves can turn into limit moves...but it's mostly the music, lol
 

Aeana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
Because all the games play the same. Turning to action rpg would allow them to evolve the franchise a lot more.
I mention KH since it's wacky and cartoon-y. Bro moves can turn into limit moves...but it's mostly the music, lol
But there are no games that play like the Mario & Luigi games. There's definitely more to do within the framework they established. Action RPGs are extremely easy to get wrong, and they're also a dime a dozen. Why remove one of the most unique aspects the series has going for it?
 

Makkah

Member
Feb 9, 2018
225
I played and absolutely adored the original Superstar Saga. I was having a good time with Inside story too, but all the gimmicks of blowing in the mic and all the annoying mini games just killed me. Haven't touched the series since.

Dream Team has been in shrink wrap for years.
 

Vivian-Pogo

Member
Jan 9, 2018
2,033
I only really liked the first game, but it was probably more to do with the game being a portable full-fledged Mario RPG game, which was neat at the time.

I don't mind if the series just doesn't come back. (And they go back to making Hamtaro games)
 

Burning Justice

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
500
Think I'm pretty burned out on the series at this point. Loved the earlier games in the series, especially the first and third ones, for their strong writing and unique gameplay. I liked Dream Team at first, but it eventually started to wear on me and I had to force myself to finish it. And I dropped Paper Jam pretty quickly. Didn't even bother with the remakes.

If they do make another one, they need to reduce the length of the game back to where the first three games were, and make sure there are some interesting new characters. But at this point I'm not sure I'd bother with it even if they did.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
The series ran out of steam after Bowser's Inside Story and every game since has just been spinning its wheels.
 

Nax

Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 10, 2018
6,672
Had a lot of fun with the early entries. But it's just lost its charm for me. I can't think of wanting to play another one for a long, long time. Paper Mario, on the other-hand, is due for a return to glory.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,004
I stopped caring after the Bowser game, they are just not that great and aren't trying anything new, also the tutorial overdose is awful, RESPECT THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE PEOPLE PLAYING YOUR FUCKING GAMES. (which BotW and Mario Odyssey do)

Also it makes me mad that apparently the superior series, Paper Mario, is not like 64/TTYD because of M+L.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
5,249
Series got MEH since Dream Team Bros.
The first two ones were new and fresh with the Beanbean Kingdom and the Shroobs.
Some cool plotideas and newly enemies and places.
Bowser was cool, because you were able to play as Bowser and he and his minions are just funny.

Dream Team Bros. really didn't include anything new. Luigi going to sleep was like being inside of Bowser,
but worse and the whole world was more standard Mushroom Kingdom.
The uniqueness was gone (like with Paper Mario) plus a new artstyle that didn't resonate with me.

Didn't buy Paper Jam because Dream Team was MEH already and out of spite for Nintendo screwing with
the Paper Mario Series
 

Clov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,929
I loved the original, but wasn't a fan of Partners in Time at all. I just got back into the series with the remake of Bowser's Inside Story on 3DS, and I'm really enjoying it so far! I've always wanted a game that stars Bowser, and this feels just what I was looking for. Though when I look at footage of the original DS version, the spritework definitely seems nicer there...

I'd like to see AlphaDream work on something different, personally. Maybe they can remake Tomato Adventure, and that could get localized this time. I've always been curious about that one.
 

Ryouji Gunblade

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
4,151
California
I liked the games up to Dream Team but haven't liked anything since. I don't like them making the unique character designs revert to bland, same-old standard ones. The new music leaves a bit to be desired too.
 

Jubenhimer

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2019
213
I think the Mario & Luigi series has been a great ride, but it's sort of run its course at this point. Paper Jam being one of the weaker entries, and 2 of the most recent games being remakes. I think it's time Alpha Dream takes Mario RPGs in a new direction with a fresh style of gameplay and story. Instead of just Mario & Luigi, how about Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad, Daisy, and Bowser teaming up to stop a new evil.
 

Deleted member 26156

User requested account closure
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Oct 30, 2017
1,579
I just picked up the Bowser's Inside Story remake yesterday. It's pretty nice so far, and honestly greatly increases my faith in AlphaDream for the next game, combined with a recent interview. The battle system is as good as ever, I like the art style of the newer games, and its nice to see them still want to tell stories in their games (Paper Jam excluded). Bowser Jr's Journey in particular seems to tell a nice one.

Also Yoko Shimomura hits it out of the park every time.

The sprites in Superstar Saga were gorgeous and clever and full of life, and to go from that, to these generic 3D models was such a let-down.

Other than that, just give a sprite-based switch entry

...you guys do realize that they still use sprites, right? All of the 3DS games are primarily sprites based, aside from Giant Battles (DT,PJ,BIS), Backgrounds (DT,PJ), and Final Bosses (PJ,SS).
 

Deleted member 26156

User requested account closure
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Oct 30, 2017
1,579
I'd like to see AlphaDream work on something different, personally. Maybe they can remake Tomato Adventure, and that could get localized this time. I've always been curious about that one.
Considering they just said in an interview it wasn't localized due to targeting too young an audience and not being recieved well, I don't see a remake happening.
 

BlakeofT

Member
Oct 30, 2017
921
I stopped caring about the series when the one about Luigi sleeping all the time had a new tutorial every 10 minutes that had several pages of text to explain a 3 sentence mechanic.

I loved Superstar Saga though. What a great game.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,925
An issue I had for a while is that a new gglame will come with a gimmick that I either liked or hated... and then make it a mainstay.

Giant battles were nice in BiS but suddenly now we need them going forward. Flipping between two worlds? Neat at first and the DT killed it. And how about those chase sequences in the battles that makes everything take longet than it needs to?

There hasnt really been a great addition to the series that Im excited to really ser again. The system is rather simplistic and doesnt really support builds on the same level that Paper Mario did.
 

Deleted member 41931

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Apr 10, 2018
3,744
Superstar Saga felt really fresh and fun. Not the most refined, but a pretty good start. Partners in Time was good, but was too long and a bit too samey. Bowser's Inside Story was great and where the series peaked. Still my favorite DS game. Dreamteam was a massive letdown with it making the same mistakes as PiT, but even worse on those fronts. Paper Jam made me start to loose faith in the series.

Like others have said though, I'd love a game staring Wario & Waluigi.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,617
But there are no games that play like the Mario & Luigi games. There's definitely more to do within the framework they established. Action RPGs are extremely easy to get wrong, and they're also a dime a dozen. Why remove one of the most unique aspects the series has going for it?
It's best aspects are that it's pretty action-y.
Full action would be the next step.

As for why change what isn't broken; the series needs a bit change up.
 

Doorman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,834
Michigan
The series peaked with Superstar Saga.
While compartmentalizing things into such a small statement comes off as a dismissive hot take...I probably agree with this sentiment more than not. At the very least, the original Superstar Saga remains my favorite out of all the Mario RPGs (Paper Mario and LotSS included), probably in my top 3 GBA games, and probably somewhere in my top 10 all time. I've enjoyed the other M&L games that I've played, but none of them hit as high for me as the first.

There are, I think, two main reasons why my opinion turned out this way and what really set Superstar Saga apart from the rest of the series.

1. An organically-developing plot, particularly coupled with a real sense of back-and-forth. It's easy to reduce the story of the game to "stop Cackletta from taking over the Beanbean Kingdom," but I feel like the road to get there is a lot more twisty than most of the other MRPGs. You start by rushing off to rescue Peach......'s voice, only to later learn why that was even necessary to begin with. You deal with Cackletta disguising herself to trick the bros, spend some time chasing her, and in a refreshing twist actually catch up and legitimately defeat her around halfway through the story. Not only that, but you later learn that her plot to steal Peach's voice was over before it even began. After a jaunt around to collect the Beanstar pieces, you find out about Cackletta's good fortune in discovering Bowser, Peach gets kidnapped, the bros concoct the fake Beanstar plan, said plan gets called out, so they devise a fake princess plan instead, only for Bowletta to up the ante by getting Bowser's Castle involved...
Basically the whole storyline plays out as this constant battle of deceptions, each side constantly plotting tricks against the other, each side notching victories and defeats. At the time it was an unbelievably cool change of pace compared to the other Mario RPGs that largely involved the "big bad" just sitting in their castle at the game's very end and do nothing but send minions your way throughout. I feel like even the other Mario & Luigi games haven't properly captured this in the same way.

2. Battles are interactive, control snappily, are quickly paced, and inventive without becoming needlessly convoluted. Yes I am aiming this squarely at the Bros attacks in particular. Superstar Saga's combat system remains my favorite out of all the games in the series largely because I've never been fond of the way they swapped things after it to making the Bros attacks far more item-reliant, both thematically and even mechanically in PiT's case. The trend for a lot of the series' special attacks has been for them to become longer and wackier, but part of what made SS so particularly good for me was how its Bros Attacks were still wacky and fun, but also still quick, straightforward, and made really great use of the bros' teamwork and applying their equipment and field abilities into battles. Their jumping powers, the spin jump, hammers and how you gained new Bros hammer attacks once you learned the field hammer techniques, ditto for the "hand" abilities. Speaking of which bring back and expand upon the hand abilities and the bros' differing elemental natures. Instead basing the bros attacks around them pulling out crazy items or extra contraptions out of nowhere feels like a step down and it's tended to make a lot of those attacks last longer and consequently overstay their welcome. The only thing that's felt remotely comparable to me since then were the Dreamy Luigi attacks in Dream Team, where you'd use the army of Luigi's in different formations for different attacks. I like it when the battle system ties in that notion of working with what you've got, rather than constantly bringing in outside influence.
Restricting it to these items has also cut down on the other best part of Superstar Saga's bros attacks: Learning advanced bros techniques. Taking existing bros attacks and teaching you to follow a different command chain to produce different results opened up the potential utility of those attacks even more, and getting the brief scene after an attack of one of the bros pausing and concocting an advancement to a technique felt really fun and rewarding. I don't think there's been anything like it since then, at least not that I can recall. I wish they'd expand on that sort of framework more if they ever do make a sequel.

I think the 3DS has been an odd era for AlphaDream to deal with, as they're kind of stuck between worlds right now with the old sprite approach of the GBA and DS on one side, and a future of full 3-D rendering on the other that I'm not sure they've necessarily had the experience or manpower to tackle. I think the best solution for now might be to let M&L rest for a bit and let them handle some other project in the meantime, something that lets them both flex their creativity in a different direction as well as giving them some time and experience developing for Switch without the pressure of the Mario brand hanging over them. Then after that other project is over with, look back on revisiting M&L with a brand new entry, one that somewhat divorces itself from the gradual track it's been on for a while now. It'd be easy for me to say "make it more like Superstar Saga was!" but since that's unlikely, I'd almost rather they find some other radical direction to take it in, perhaps by then they can manage to swing a game with a fully 3-D perspective, something that makes it obviously different from their 3DS entries.
 
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Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,091
Doorman bringing the goods there.
Let's also throw in SS having an overworld that's more open to exploring and finding optional areas while later games opt for more segmented areas, there was plenty of room to expand upon the beanbean kingdom's style of map, and instead they just sorta went backwards instead.