What’s the huge rush to get kids back into school in the US?

[bickieditches]

Some of the comments here are starting to make me feel depressed.

The recommendation to open schools is based on thousands of physicians/epidemiologists, CDC guidance, and professional education researchers who care deeply about kids. Most private schools are open. Many schools in well-to-do neighborhoods are either open or opening. Remote learning has and will disproportionately harm minority students.

Kids are not likely transmission vessels. Teachers should be vaccinated, but schools need to open ASAP. We've lost essentially a year of learning, and we need to get our kids back on track.

 

[Sain]

There are lots of selfish people out there who just want their kids back in school to get them out of their hair, but this whole thing in particular has been really hard on kids. The isolation isn't good for them and I can only imagine how ineffective virtual learning is for most. I can understand wanting kids to get back to school for the latter two reasons. It should be done, safely, as soon as possible. I don't have kids, so no dog in the fight, but I am an ex-teacher and know how hit or miss remote learning is in the most normal of circumstances.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

I understand and support anyone who feels like their kids need to be in school but I absolutely think that anyone who can keep their kids home should. We are for the duration - their teachers are fine and I'm a teacher so they have help at home. It's not perfect but they don't have a lot of the in-person benefits right now anyway (social distancing), but too many kids need food and warmth and support and if we're not going to provide it otherwise, focus should be on making schools as safe as possible for those who need to be there.

I have enormous privilege in that I have a flexible schedule and can support them but so many people don't. It's not hard for some. It's impossible. And there are so many kids home alone looking after even younger siblings right now.

 

[Deleted member 59109]

Because from our (the kids) perspective, in person classes are much better than online. Online classes are way more stressful and miss out on all the social aspects of school that are really important. A lot of people who aren't students seem ok to dismiss that but from somebody who actually goes to college, I took a gap year this year because I didn't want to do more of the online-only format.

 

[grmlin]

You nailed it. I am in the Chicago suburbs and there are some schools that have been in person the entire time and they have had no issues. The teachers stay away from the kids, hand sanitize, clean, etc and have been fine. My kids have been at home up until a few weeks ago and it has drastically affect them. eLearning is a joke and it is hurting the kids.

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Especially if remote schooling comes down to this as a kid/parent:

• Download PDFs
• Print PDFs
• Do work and ask parents all the time what shit means because no one told the kids before handing out the tasks (that's what teachers normally do)
• Scan PDFs
• Upload PDFs or give them to the teacher

Me and my wife became unpaid substitute teachers for the last year. My son had his first video call last week. AFTER A YEAR. Germany's school system is still in the dark ages of digitization, it's mind blowing.

 

[mrmoose]

Some of the comments here are starting to make me feel depressed.

The recommendation to open schools is based on thousands of physicians/epidemiologists, CDC guidance, and professional education researchers who care deeply about kids. Most private schools are open. Many schools in well-to-do neighborhoods are either open or opening. Remote learning has and will disproportionately harm minority students.

Kids are not likely transmission vessels. Teachers should be vaccinated, but schools need to open ASAP. We've lost essentially a year of learning, and we need to get our kids back on track.

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I think this is often said and I know there are some studies on it, but I do not think it's safe to say this like it's a fact everyone should know, especially older kids.

Also, if schools were able to strictly follow the CDC guidelines (the current CDC) I think I'd be fine with them reopening in a measured fashion. But while private schools with their smaller class size and teacher to student ratio and well to do neighborhoods might be able to, I guarantee that is not true for the majority of public schools, and they will reopen without those safeguards (or strict adherence to those safeguards) in place.

As an example, the CDC recently said that teacher vaccination is not a requirement for schools to reopen in their opinion. Most will just take that as the headline and ignore the guidelines they have in order for schools to reopen before all teachers are vaccinated.

 

[JCizzle]

There are lots of selfish people out there who just want their kids back in school to get them out of their hair, but this whole thing in particular has been really hard on kids. The isolation isn't good for them and I can only imagine how ineffective virtual learning is for most. I can understand wanting kids to get back to school for the latter two reasons. It should be done, safely, as soon as possible. I don't have kids, so no dog in the fight, but I am an ex-teacher and know how hit or miss remote learning is in the most normal of circumstances.

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Even if there are lots of selfish people out there, it doesn't take away from your other point that the selfish peoples' kids will still benefit from socializing with other kids and learning in-person. Both things can be true and I'm not sure why a bunch of people (not you) in this thread seemingly want kids to suffer for having shitty parents. Even if the parents are approaching the situation with bad reasoning or intentions, it's still really important that kids get back in this environment as soon as it's feasible.

 

[Cipherr]

Everyone here is so busy kicking at other posters for having a different view on this.. Maybe just maybe theres multiple reasons. Maybe the teacher giving a literal real life example about where he/she lives isnt any less important than someone else giving an example from where THEY live. No one said there was only one reason people may rush to get kids back into school, so I dont know why everyone on the last 3 pages is pretending that's the case.

I swear sometimes it looks like you guys come here literally JUST to argue.

Im sure for some Americans having their kids not be with them 24/7 is better for their mental health.
Im sure for some if not all the raw amount of learning is also extremely important.
Im sure some cannot actively WFH while also refereeing their children in the other room.
Im sure for some developmentally the kids having other kids near them is extremely important.
etc etc etc.

People respond to the thread and give their take from their perspective. Doesn't mean that's the sole motivator countrywide. This is so obvious it shouldnt even need to be said.

 

[Reel Big Fish]

As a parent of an 11 year old and 9 year old, I think other parents who are sending their kids to in person school are absolutely crazy. Our schools open last month for in person but we chose to keep having them e-learning. And if they cancel e-learning next year, I'll hold my kids out of school until they are vaccinated. I dont care that kids don't have as high a chance to get and spread covid, it's just not worth the risk.

 

[kess]

Holy shit, yes, I didn't even consider this angle of the "School is daycare" comment.

It's not just "School is daycare," but "School is daycare and daycare is unimportant baby sitting." As a parent of a toddler who is developmentally delayed and has aaaammmaaaazing results with her daycare teachers, yeah, it's an utter slap in the face to them as well.

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It's classist as all hell too, because the pandemic affects single and working parents disproportionately. Some schools in low-income districts have been sending lunches to the students because it's still the best meal they're getting every day. In an ideal world everybody would have the choice to afford better but this is how inequality snowballs.

 

[SmartBase]

It was exactly that, actually. I'm not interested in takes on this subject from people without children in this situation, as that's what quite a few of the initial posts came off as.

What did you think it was?

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I don't think my meaning got across too well but I see this is pointless anyway since I'm not a parent, just ignore me.

 

[Darknight]

I do think this has a much better chance of working in elementary schools as long as certain factors - such as ventilation - is implemented.

It will also of course depend largely on the area and rate of infection. So I don't disagree with you.

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Ventilation is definitely one of the things stressed in our school district with the combination of a higher grade than required air filters have been installed, doors and windows are to remain open and the push to do outdoor teaching whenever possible means they're focused on the ventilation aspect. The one thing that I think they've stressed which has helped us realize they are taking this very seriously is the fact that they stress that there's no magic bullet to safety here. Not one single thing is going to keep everyone safe; it's going to be the combination of multiple things that will be done and that combination will reduce the likelihood of there being a problem. They also tell us that it doesn't guarantee that it will prevent everything, but it will absolutely minimize the probability and several private and public schools have shown it to be effective. It's masks, social distancing, limiting cohorts, ventilation, etc that combined make it a controlled and relatively safe environment that will make this work.

While these sound good in practice, there's no way any of that is actually going to happen. 14 kids in a classroom? Everyone is talking about low income families and communities...which have overcrowded schools. Even the suburban schools I've worked in have 25+ per classroom.

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This is what's happening here though. This is not full day school sessions here. This is a split AM and PM hybrid model so that kids get some in person school. They've even made it so that lunch does not happen on campus as a result of them going with an AM and PM session model. So if a class has more than 14 kids, then they get put into a different group and go at a different time. The thing though is because in person school is an option and not required, the number of people who have opted to stay home or are flexible to do either or to take on another teacher has made it so that there isn't a need for a second session for most teachers. They have also made a tiered ranking list to make sure that those with special needs or are the most at risk due to circumstances like low income have a higher priority for placement. The things I listed are actual things that are happening to reopen schools here in our district.

 

[Muu]

I do agree that there's different needs for different kids. In an ideal world I'd like to see support that allows for those different needs to be met.

Do your kids need the socialization and are they failing regardless of effort and support in remote learning? Bring them in for in person learning in limited class sizes.

Do your kids thrive in remote learning? Make sure distance learning has the funds to be successful, and provide support for the parents. Support can mean monetary support for those that are near poverty lines that has zero flexibility in work. Support can also mean designated time off for child care for one of the parents, similar to what was offered for companies of certain sizes through the FFCRA last year. I was able to get ~6wks over the summer to take care of the kids thanks to this (I could not take the full 13 because they inexplicably mixed in the time w/ any other leave including but not limited to parental leave for newborns and we had our second in Feb).

People are tired. Kids are tired. Parents have generally been asked to double duty as full time workers that also act as teacher subs on top of the parenting shit we've always dealt with. The breaking point probably happened months ago, and I do hope we get to a point where we actually throw money and personnel into helping while we're still able to hold onto the pieces.

 

[gozu]

For elementary school though, it absolutely can be a controlled environment. The proposal here sounds reasonably structured and controlled.
- classes have a max capacity of 14 students
- minimum of six feet distance in the classroom

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The first two are mutually exclusive unless your classrooms are over 500 Sqft (~50 square meters).

Are they truly that large?

 

[dab0ne]

For me personally it's really not a big deal because I was a stay at home dad for about ten years. Don't get me wrong, it's stressful as flip but covid didn't really change much of anything as far as having kids around all day.

however... it is really important that kids have other kids their age to socialize with on a regular basis and that they have one on one time with their teachers, so for that reason I want school to be in session.

 

[THErest]

The first two are mutually exclusive unless your classrooms are over 500 Sqft (~50 square meters).

Are they truly that large?

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You can do it with about 360 sq ft if the teacher doesn't move at all and most of the kids are jammed up against the walls...

 

[gozu]

I think what a lot of people fail to understand, or don't want to understand, is that their choices are not necessarily what they want them to be.

The virus has shown 0 chill, and humans have shown way too much chill, at the beginning, and these are the horrible consequences of what people's (Trump king among them) shortsighted response was to the virus a year ago.

Nobody was thinking then "if we don't get this shit under control, our children might miss important development markers and may never recover from this". Or at least not enough people were. Look at Dave Chappelle. He said he "tried". He "really" tried. When actually he didn't really try. He didn't want to fucking do it and he found a goddamn excuse not to. Period point fucking blank. Dude acting like he HAD to go on stage. HAD to party with Musk and Branson and Rogan maskless. And he has the balls to act the fucking victim and demonize those who chastised him as haters and cowards. When they are fucking sacrificing to save his mom's life. Ugh.

That's the kind of shit we were up against. And we lost. The idiotic and selfish maskless traitors sunk us. Killed our parents. Ruined our children's lives. And who do they blame?

It's the cowardly teachers! Are you kidding me? As if teachers were paid enough for this shit. Give those of them who volunteer to come back a 200% raise for the duration of the epidemic as hazard pay. I want to see teachers making $150K for once in their lives.

Children are worth it. People who have to risk their lives should be compensated.

Once a vaccine is available, any vaccinated teacher has no excuse anymore. I won't ask them to die for the kids, but I WILL ask them to risk getting a bad flu. That's a sacrifice I can expect them to make for 40K/year..

 

[iksenpets]

I'm really torn on this, because on the whole we should be avoiding risk, but on the other hand the consequences of a whole lost year of in person school are going to be terrible, it's going to most affect the poorest, most at-risk kids, and we're going to be dealing with the fallout from it for a generation. I'm not sure the push for full 5-days-a-week school is wise since we don't really have the classroom space to distance that sufficiently, but some sort of rotating groups of kids going every second or third day to keep the building well under capacity, some chunk of the day spent in outdoor classes to let things better ventilate, seems smart. Both people crammed into schools and all-remote education seem like really bad results with really bad long-term consequences.

 

[Arrogant PsycHOPathy]

I swear sometimes it looks like you guys come here literally JUST to argue.

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So much this.

 

[Darknight]

The first two are mutually exclusive unless your classrooms are over 500 Sqft (~50 square meters).

Are they truly that large?

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Of course not every school is the same, but I think ours might be large enough. They've shown us pictures of the layout of what distanced desks might look like with the markings showing how kids should keep their distance. Here's a pic of one of our classrooms and it's not even a view of the entire classroom as there is more behind the view and more to the left.

So from what I've seen and what they've shown us, even though I haven't personally measured it, I don't think they're lying about their proposal.

 

[Kendrid]

My son had his first video call last week. AFTER A YEAR.

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That is insane. Our schools at least have required the kids be on video 100% of the time, but that still does not mean they are paying attention.

 

[gozu]

Of course not every school is the same, but I think ours might be large enough. They've shown us pictures of the layout of what distanced desks might look like with the markings showing how kids should keep their distance. Here's a pic of one of our classrooms and it's not even a view of the entire classroom as there is more behind the view and more to the left.

So from what I've seen and what they've shown us, even though I haven't personally measured it, I don't think they're lying about their proposal.

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Yeah that classroom looks more than fine for that. If the kids stay in their assigned spots and keep their masks on, they should be quite safe.

 

[Aomame]

Of course not every school is the same, but I think ours might be large enough. They've shown us pictures of the layout of what distanced desks might look like with the markings showing how kids should keep their distance. Here's a pic of one of our classrooms and it's not even a view of the entire classroom as there is more behind the view and more to the left.

So from what I've seen and what they've shown us, even though I haven't personally measured it, I don't think they're lying about their proposal.

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In my experience with public schools, this is on the large end, even for an elementary school. Middle and high school rooms tend to be much smaller. I also don't see any windows or external doors that might be used for ventilation (which is moot in some areas given the temperature outside... I'm not opening up my window in 13° weather).

 

[mrmoose]

That is insane. Our schools at least have required the kids be on video 100% of the time, but that still does not mean they are paying attention.

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Around here a teacher cannot force a student to keep their camera on because of privacy/shame concerns. I told my spouse that if that were the case when I was a kid, of course I'd be playing videogames or whatever.

 

[Darknight]

Yeah that classroom looks more than fine for that. If the kids stay in their assigned spots and keep their masks on, they should be quite safe.

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Believe me when I say I don't take this lightly and certainly have had concerns about if this is the right thing to do or not. I've been actively following this in our school and our school district. Our principal holds one to two meetings every week since last August for parents to jump in and ask questions, give their feedback, and so forth. I also attend all the school district meetings for their updates and to hear what other people are saying as they read off feedback responses at the beginning. All of this is done by Zoom. So I've been following this extremely close to learn as much as possible while hearing the various views of how the parents feel on this matter too. There's a strong sense of not rushing it and trying to be as safe as possible. Certainly, some view points you can roll your eyes at on both sides of the argument, but in general most people have been thoughtful and reasonable and you can hear those who are struggling and even those that are struggling aren't always on the side of we have to send them back. We've even reached out to our teachers privately and off the record to ask if they're being pressured into this or if they're doing it because they want to do it. Both have said while they are certainly concerned, they can't wait to get back in to the classroom to see their kids and to teach them and that they're doing this of their own choice and that the school has been accommodating to teachers who don't want to go back yet.

So with all that said and even though I still have some concerns, everything that has been presented to me as far as the data, the science, the steps that they're taking, etc is hard to argue against what they're presenting to me other than they're just my gut feelings. They're also doing this in phases so they're only starting with K through 2nd right now. I mean, this is what we want right? School reopenings to be based off studies, science, data, health official recommendations, proper steps to create a safe environment, etc right? We shouldn't dismiss it because it goes against what we feel.

In my experience with public schools, this is on the large end, even for an elementary school. Middle and high school rooms tend to be much smaller. I also don't see any windows or external doors that might be used for ventilation (which is moot in some areas given the temperature outside... I'm not opening up my window in 13° weather).

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I can't speak for middle and high schools since those aren't planned to open currently and I don't know what their plan is. I know they've said because kids move between classrooms and don't have the same teacher, that's a different challenge compared to elementary school. I also can't comment on how most other elementary schools are in size with classrooms, but I can say that we are by no means a rich school or neighborhood. So I have to imagine we're not completely abnormal around here, especially for our school district.

As for the windows, they are on the back wall that you can't see. There's plenty of windows there and there's a window next to the door on the right. Every classroom has at least one wall of windows. Going off memory, the windows tend to be on the opposite wall of the door too so that should create airflow through the room. Fortunately, we live in the Bay Area so the weather isn't anywhere near that close to being as cold, but they've stressed to bundle up and have an extra layer because doors and windows will be open. That's also why it's possible for them to suggest having classrooms outside when possible. Right now, I look at the temp and it says it's 65 degrees out.

 

[mrmoose]

Oh there are certainly areas and schools that can open safely given vaccine distribution, case count, class sizes, and adherence to safety precautions. Saying that no school should open is as idiotic as saying every school should open.

One of the main things I'd want to hear, after all the safety stuff is covered, is what is the contingency play should there be exposure?

 

[Darknight]

One of the main things I'd want to hear, after all the safety stuff is covered, is what is the contingency play should there be exposure?

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This is what ours says:

Classroom Closure
In the event of a confirmed COVID-19 case infection, the district will quarantine and exclude any exposed contacts
(likely the entire classroom cohort) for 10 days after the last date the case was present at school while infectious.
The cohort will transition to distance learning for the duration of the quarantine period.

School Closure
Individual school closure may be appropriate when there are multiple confirmed cases in multiple cohorts at a
school or when at least 5 percent of the total number of teachers/students/staff are confirmed cases within a
14-day period. The school will transition to distance learning during the school closure.

District Closure
The superintendent will close the school district if 2 or more of the schools in the district have closed due to
COVID-19 within 14 days, and in consultation with the local public health department. The district will transition to
distance learning during the closure.

Reopening after Closure
Schools may typically reopen after 10 days and the following have occurred:
● Cleaning and disinfection
● Public health investigation
● Consultation with the local public health department

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Also for kids who are sick:

Ill children may not return to our program until they have a negative COVID test or a doctor's note explaining why they do not need a COVID test AND are symptom-free for 24 hours AND are fever-free for 24 hours (without the aid of medication.)

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[grmlin]

That is insane. Our schools at least have required the kids be on video 100% of the time, but that still does not mean they are paying attention.

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Yeah. That's what I expected lol. But it's Germany and the schools weren't allowed to just start video conferencing with these "evil" services like Zoom.

 

[JJD]

We hate our kids and we're sick of seeing them so much. School is supposed to keep them occupied and out of the way.

Just let us pretend like it's for their benefit, okay?

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What a load of bullshit. Such a stupid generalization. Do you have kids? Because you don't know what your talking about.

Don't know about the US but in my country schools have been closed for a year and it's a fucking disaster.

The effect on my 3 year old who was beginning to learn to socialize in school is gigantic.

No matter how much her mother and me try it's just not the same. We have bought educational books and toys and we try to do educational activities every single day and it's not enough.

Her speech has been affected, she just isn't developing as fast as she was. She was always an easy going baby who loved to interact with others and now she just wants to stay in our laps and barely plays even with her own sister.

Her older sister is 5 and was beginning to lean to read and it's been a nightmare according to her own teacher.

She has virtual classes but it's almost impossible to keep a 5 year old focused on a virtual class for long. Her teacher believes that the whole class should just repeat the year AGAIN in 2022 if this keeps up longer.

She complains every single day that she misses her friends, and that she misses going out and I can't do nothing. She always loved playing with me but after 1 year with just the two of us she is kinda not that interested anymore.

I have changed my working hours to be at her side during classes and help her but progress has been slow.

I respect teachers a lot, and I know it's a hard job that pays a shit wage and that a lot of then are scared shitless of getting back to classes and getting infected. But something must be done. There must be a way to start to get back as safe as possible both for the teachers and for the kids because the damage is done and it's only getting bigger.

When this shitstorm started last year, in my ignorance I thought my kids wouldn't suffer that much because they were so small, school at their age is was just playing and some small learning activities I thought to myself...how stupid I was...

Again, speaking of my own experience but in most of my country: Bars are open, restaurants are open, cinemas are open, sport clubs are open, fucking stadiums with sports events are open...but schools are closed...how this shit makes any sense???

Government has fucking failed our kids as much as it failed everything else related to COVID.

And if it's this bad for us, that are well off, live in a big house with lots of outside space, a pool and a fucking spa can you imagine how bad it must be for poor folks who live in small homes with children that haven't been outside for almost a year?

As always poor people and minorities suffer the worst and it's their kids who are getting screwed the worse.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

It is interesting the extent to which some users view Era as such a safe space for discussion, and so much better than other pockets of the internet for open, friendly discourse.

Presumably that changes depending on the topic? If it's parents openly discussing the impact of the pandemic and school closures on their children, it must be because they hate their kids and want their daycare back.

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I mean, it's safe to the extent that it doesn't allow bullshit from the MAGA types. But besides that, it's a cesspool of hostility and cynicism where everyone seems to be trying to humiliate each other, and everything anybody does or says always reveals how much of a shit person they are in the eyes of many here.

 

[Kendrid]

Around here a teacher cannot force a student to keep their camera on because of privacy/shame concerns. I told my spouse that if that were the case when I was a kid, of course I'd be playing videogames or whatever.

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Via my ISPs app I've noticed my daughter's iPad is using quite a bit of data at times during the day when school is in session. I think she is dual-screaning it with Zoom and Netflix.

 

[Astral]

I work with kids and some of these kids just fucking suck at virtual school. It just does not work for them. They're not prepared to constantly be on the lookout for emails, notifications on the three different apps they use for school, keeping track of all the shit they have due on their own, not being given enough attention because if the limitations of Zoom and the like. It's so had with the little ones. I feel for them. I get that it's dangerous to send them to school but I also understand that virtual is doing a lot of kids harm. Even for the kids that are doing relatively well, it's just garbage compared to going in person.

 

[Imperfected]

What a load of bullshit. Such a stupid generalization. Do you have kids? Because you don't know what your talking about.

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Okay, so there seems to be a persistent misunderstanding, here. I'll own that: the first post was a little on the glib side. So let's fix that. Let's rap, Era.

The thing is, the question isn't, "Should we re-open schools for the sake of our children?" It's, "Why is America, in specific, so gung-ho to re-open schools?"

I don't doubt that the people replying in this thread legitimately feel that it's in the best interests of their children, or even that the statistics might bear that out in the end. However, I also want to point out that Era is not an accurate cross-section of America. Era isn't even an accurate cross-section of the Democratic portion of America. I think we can safely say this was borne out in both the presidential primaries and the general election, right?

So when we're asking, "Why is the USA so eager to open schools again despite the pandemic?" we're not asking why you, in specific, think it's a good idea, or why disease transmission modeling or statistical evidence suggests it might be a good idea. We're asking why a large and extremely vocal percentage of Americans want it to happen.

If you're thinking they've had a Come To Jesus Moment and are following your lead in putting the welfare of their children first, I'm going to say you are approaching this in a completely uncritical manner. To whit:

How eager has this same plurality of Americans ever been in addressing the underlying issues driving youth suicide in America prior to the pandemic?

Have they demonstrated a legitimate conviction to address bullying (cyber- or otherwise) in a way that holds parents of bullies accountable or otherwise in any way actually tries to prevent the behavior?

Have they supported serious correction to peer group sexual assault and harassment, given the relationship these things have with teenage suicides?

Have they tried to understand and address the root causes of school shootings--which, regardless of what else they might be, are ultimately an act of suicide--or done anything more than the most perfunctory and ineffective steps to prevent them?

Have they shown strong support for legitimizing LGBTQ+ rights and preventing mistreatment, given that there's an overwhelming higher suicide rate among LGBTQ+ identifying minors compared to their brethren?

Have they made any effort to address the hugely disproportionate rate of suicides among homeless youths compared to others?

I'm going to say that, in my experience, America collectively does not seem to want to suffer even the mildest inconvenience to try and address youth suicide, and in the past a great number of Americans have in fact attempted to stymie collection and dissemination of data about the problem by the CDC and other agencies for fear of the political fallout. Basically, any time the issue has come up in the past, there wasn't enough political will to even look into the problem seriously and have an adult conversation about it, much less actually attempt to address the issues.

So yeah, if you're asking me to believe that a single-digit uptick in youth suicides in the largest school district in America has suddenly turned the majority of Americans into compassionate individuals who sincerely want what's best for troubled children and care very deeply about their education, I'm going to have to put on my bitter cynicism pants on that one. I think, rather, that this vocal group of Americans has suddenly found that pretending to care about the mental health, safety, and educational achievement of school-age children conveniently gets them to the end-point they want (removing pandemic restrictions) and are co-signing behind a principled minority that actually believe re-opening schools is the best way forward for our kids.

And don't get me wrong: shit sucks. I know no one who's sincerely presenting the case that schools should be re-opened for the sake of their kids wants to have Ted fucking Cruz retweeting them pretending like he's suddenly capable of empathy and not blatantly using them to prop up his agenda. No one wants to have the wrong people behind them on the right side of an issue if they can help it. I'm not trying to accuse anyone here of being disingenuous about this, but I do think you're being hopelessly naive if you think America, as a collective entity, is pushing this narrative because of deep concern about kids.

And that, again, is the question posed: why is the USA so het up on opening schools? Like, does anyone really think the answer to that question is, "Because most Americans are well-informed and deeply compassionate and want to do what's right for their kids"?

 

[cwmartin]

So even though you agree, by consensus, that opening schools is the right thing to do according to education professionals, healthcare professionals, and child development professionals, your issue is with the motivation of the populace? That because the motivation might be selfish for what you think is the majority, it's flawed?

Doing something that happens to be right, for a selfish reason, is what we call a "win win" in America I suppose.

 

[XMonkey]

Is the focus on opening schools as soon as possible just a US thing?

Children elsewhere in the world are just handling the lack of school fundamentally better than US children?

 

[Darknight]

Okay, so there seems to be a persistent misunderstanding, here. I'll own that: the first post was a little on the glib side. So let's fix that. Let's rap, Era.

The thing is, the question isn't, "Should we re-open schools for the sake of our children?" It's, "Why is America, in specific, so gung-ho to re-open schools?"

I don't doubt that the people replying in this thread legitimately feel that it's in the best interests of their children, or even that the statistics might bear that out in the end. However, I also want to point out that Era is not an accurate cross-section of America. Era isn't even an accurate cross-section of the Democratic portion of America. I think we can safely say this was borne out in both the presidential primaries and the general election, right?

So when we're asking, "Why is the USA so eager to open schools again despite the pandemic?" we're not asking why you, in specific, think it's a good idea, or why disease transmission modeling or statistical evidence suggests it might be a good idea. We're asking why a large and extremely vocal percentage of Americans want it to happen.

If you're thinking they've had a Come To Jesus Moment and are following your lead in putting the welfare of their children first, I'm going to say you are approaching this in a completely uncritical manner. To whit:

How eager has this same plurality of Americans ever been in addressing the underlying issues driving youth suicide in America prior to the pandemic?

Have they demonstrated a legitimate conviction to address bullying (cyber- or otherwise) in a way that holds parents of bullies accountable or otherwise in any way actually tries to prevent the behavior?

Have they supported serious correction to peer group sexual assault and harassment, given the relationship these things have with teenage suicides?

Have they tried to understand and address the root causes of school shootings--which, regardless of what else they might be, are ultimately an act of suicide--or done anything more than the most perfunctory and ineffective steps to prevent them?

Have they shown strong support for legitimizing LGBTQ+ rights and preventing mistreatment, given that there's an overwhelming higher suicide rate among LGBTQ+ identifying minors compared to their brethren?

Have they made any effort to address the hugely disproportionate rate of suicides among homeless youths compared to others?

I'm going to say that, in my experience, America collectively does not seem to want to suffer even the mildest inconvenience to try and address youth suicide, and in the past a great number of Americans have in fact attempted to stymie collection and dissemination of data about the problem by the CDC and other agencies for fear of the political fallout. Basically, any time the issue has come up in the past, there wasn't enough political will to even look into the problem seriously and have an adult conversation about it, much less actually attempt to address the issues.

So yeah, if you're asking me to believe that a single-digit uptick in youth suicides in the largest school district in America has suddenly turned the majority of Americans into compassionate individuals who sincerely want what's best for troubled children and care very deeply about their education, I'm going to have to put on my bitter cynicism pants on that one. I think, rather, that this vocal group of Americans has suddenly found that pretending to care about the mental health, safety, and educational achievement of school-age children conveniently gets them to the end-point they want (removing pandemic restrictions) and are co-signing behind a principled minority that actually believe re-opening schools is the best way forward for our kids.

And don't get me wrong: shit sucks. I know no one who's sincerely presenting the case that schools should be re-opened for the sake of their kids wants to have Ted fucking Cruz retweeting them pretending like he's suddenly capable of empathy and not blatantly using them to prop up his agenda. No one wants to have the wrong people behind them on the right side of an issue if they can help it. I'm not trying to accuse anyone here of being disingenuous about this, but I do think you're being hopelessly naive if you think America, as a collective entity, is pushing this narrative because of deep concern about kids.

And that, again, is the question posed: why is the USA so het up on opening schools? Like, does anyone really think the answer to that question is, "Because most Americans are well-informed and deeply compassionate and want to do what's right for their kids"?

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The reality is there is no one monolith answer to this though. People will have different reasons for wanting to go back. Some will be genuine while others won't be. Not to mention the US varies greatly depending on the region and how the community and government view and approach this. So to try and lump the push to go back to schools as some one majority monolith of disingenuous as their reasons for this push is trying to simplify an issue that is anything but simple. Even ignoring how the people feel, the CDC, doctors, specialists/experts, etc all are trending towards a push for this based on science, data and studies so it's not just people who don't know any better and are looking for their self interest. Why are we so quick to ignore the experts here but then shame people for ignoring science, data, and experts on other topics?

 

[GYODX]

So even though you agree, by consensus, that opening schools is the right thing to do according to education professionals, healthcare professionals, and child development professionals, your issue is with the motivation of the populace? That because the motivation might be selfish for what you think is the majority, it's flawed?

Doing something that happens to be right, for a selfish reason, is what we call a "win win" in America I suppose.

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Right? I would expect Era to be a place that listens to the experts.

 

[cwmartin]

Right? I would expect Era to be a place that listens to the experts.

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Equally so, I would not judge someone who decides to keep their children at home. Parents wanting to keep their children at home, and it being safe to return to school are not mutually exclusive outcomes here.

 

[Imperfected]

Why are we so quick to ignore the experts here but then shame people for ignoring science, data, and experts on other topics?

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Again, I'm going to point back to this:

The thing is, the question posed isn't, "Should we re-open schools for the sake of our children?" It's, "Why is America, in specific, so gung-ho to re-open schools?"

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the question I was answering in the first place. I was not and never have attempted to make a statement about whether or not we should open schools, I'm answering the question of why American wants to do it so badly. You're certainly welcome to discuss that as a topic, but that was not the topic of discussion I was responding to, so I clarified why I responded the way I did to the OP.

I'm not saying that because the majority want to re-open schools for the "wrong" reasons, that doing so would be wrong. I'm simply pointing out the what those reasons, realistically, are, because that's how I interpreted the question presented to me. I'm actually not personally that interested in the topic of whether it would be correct to do so or not, because I haven't seen compelling enough data either way; I'll leave that discussion to people who are (or at least feel they are) better informed on the topic.

I do, however, contend that my assessment of the underlying American psychology on the issue is probably pretty accurate.

 

[Nazo]

Most parents despise their children. That's it.

 

[Darknight]

Again, I'm going to point back to this:

The thing is, the question posed isn't, "Should we re-open schools for the sake of our children?" It's, "Why is America, in specific, so gung-ho to re-open schools?"

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the question I was answering in the first place. I was not and never have attempted to make a statement about whether or not we should open schools, I'm answering the question of why American wants to do it so badly. You're certainly welcome to discuss that as a topic, but that was not the topic of discussion I was responding to, so I clarified why I responded the way I did to the OP.

I'm not saying that because the majority want to re-open schools for the "wrong" reasons, that doing so would be wrong. I'm simply pointing out the what those reasons, realistically, are, because that's how I interpreted the question presented to me. I'm actually not personally that interested in the topic of whether it would be correct to do so or not, because I haven't seen compelling enough data either way; I'll leave that discussion to people who are (or at least feel they are) better informed on the topic.

I do, however, contend that my assessment of the underlying American psychology on the issue is probably pretty accurate.

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I addressed what you're talking about in that same post right before what you quoted me though.

Equally so, I would not judge someone who decides to keep their children at home. Parents wanting to keep their children at home, and it being safe to return to school are not mutually exclusive outcomes here.

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Yep. I like how our district is approaching it with we're going to try to accommodate your needs as best as we can. If you want to go back, we have an option and we're going to do it safe. If you're not comfortable, that's okay, you can continue to be distanced. People are given the choice to how they want to approach this to try to fit their family needs and that's really the best way it should be handled.

 

[disillusion386]

I do, however, contend that my assessment of the underlying American psychology on the issue is probably pretty accurate.

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Please, I would love to see the data and literature you have on the underlying American psychology of parents wanting their kids to go back to school.

 

[Davilmar]

You can do it with about 360 sq ft if the teacher doesn't move at all and most of the kids are jammed up against the walls...

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Seriously. As someone in a county where we don't even have working AC units for a population of over a million people, the idea that these guidelines are going to work is naive at best. On top of having hand sanitizers when teachers have to pay for their own supplies? Good luck. I'm glad my father retired, since he was already a senior teaching high school.

 

[Darknight]

Seriously. As someone in a county where we don't even have working AC units for a population of over a million people, the idea that these guidelines are going to work is naive at best. On top of having hand sanitizers when teachers have to pay for their own supplies? Good luck. I'm glad my father retired, since he was already a senior teaching high school.

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But everything I listed is what is happening. Masks, santizer, etc has already been acquired with a three month supply on hand. How is it naive when they are executing the plan that they're telling us?

 

[Imperfected]

Please, I would love to see the data and literature you have on the underlying American psychology of parents wanting their kids to go back to school.

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Scroll up the page, respond to the points I made, or put me on ignore and stop derailing the other discussion that's already happening?

I presented what I would say is a pretty compelling argument that America, as a collective entity, has never been very serious about addressing the problem of youth suicide, and therefore a reasonable incredulity regarding a sudden collective interest in doing so. Do you disagree? Do you have any logical path for me to follow in presenting that disagreement?

Or do you not really want to have this debate? Because I'm honestly pretty good with that. The ongoing conversation about the pros and cons of re-opening is more spirited and engaging, anyway. I only posted that clarification to try and stop new posters from derailing it every other page with "LOOK AT THIS HOT TAKE!" posts.

 

[mrmoose]

Most parents despise their children. That's it.

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Besides being a drive-by, this makes no sense. Unless most parents also don't believe in COVID, the fact is that if there were an outbreak related to going back to school, the parents are the most likely to suffer and not the kids.

 

[Davilmar]

But everything I listed is what is happening. Masks, santizer, etc has already been acquired with a three month supply on hand. How is it naive when they are executing the plan that they're telling us?

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Happening where? You keep acting as if the guidelines provided are being followed in every jurisdiction line by line. Which it isn't in a lot of poorer districts. And that makes this conversation frustrating, since different districts have differing resources and compliance with guidelines. Those guidelines aren't going to be helpful for my old job in Alachua County (Florida) with the health department, where we struggled managing mini outbreaks because nobody was following guidelines and we scrambled to work with schools to barely find more locations to reduce classroom size. On top of personnel cuts and other issues. It was a mess.

 

[Nazo]

Besides being a drive-by, this makes no sense. Unless most parents also don't believe in COVID, the fact is that if there were an outbreak related to going back to school, the parents are the most likely to suffer and not the kids.

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Hating your kids and believing in COVID aren't mutually exclusive. Admittedly it is also some people conditioned to believe economy matters above all else regardless of the consequences. And if it means sending your kids to school in a dangerous situation than they will.

 

[Darknight]

Happening where? You keep acting as if the guidelines provided are being followed in every jurisdiction line by line. Which it isn't in a lot of poorer districts. And that makes this conversation frustrating, since different districts have differing resources and compliance with guidelines. Those guidelines aren't going to be helpful for my old job in Alachua County (Florida) with the health department, where we struggled managing mini outbreaks because nobody was following guidelines and we scrambled to work with schools to barely find more locations to reduce classroom size. On top of personnel cuts and other issues. It was a mess.

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You're replying to someone who is responding to my post about how our school district is approaching it with limiting classes to be 14 students maximum, which is actually less than the recommended guidelines, and maintaining that they have to be 6 feet apart in the classroom. They replied with it not being realistic or viable and that's when you replied too in order to agree. So I'm telling you that it is happening in our district which is the guidelines that I posted came from and we're not a rich district either. I already also acknowledged not all districts are the same with their approach or ability as well.

 

[disillusion386]

Scroll up the page, respond to the points I made, or put me on ignore and stop derailing the other discussion that's already happening?

I presented what I would say is a pretty compelling argument that America, as a collective entity, has never been very serious about addressing the problem of youth suicide, and therefore a reasonable incredulity regarding a sudden collective interest in doing so. Do you disagree? Do you have any logical path for me to follow in presenting that disagreement?

Or do you not really want to have this debate? Because I'm honestly pretty good with that. The ongoing conversation about the pros and cons of re-opening is more spirited and engaging, anyway. I only posted that clarification to try and stop new posters from derailing it every other page with "LOOK AT THIS HOT TAKE!" posts.

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There really is nothing to respond about because while the points you brought up are serious systematic issues surround suicide, childhood development, and gun violence, they all boil down to your original reductive response to this thread - that because people don't have the capacity to address those complex issues, the majority of parents don't really care about the well-being of their children and just want to reopen schools for selfish reasons.

Again, are you a parent? Are you somebody who works in education? Do you have polling data on why parents want schools to reopen? Education experts are already sounding the alarm about the long-term impacts of remote learning so what exactly makes you so confident about your understanding of what millions of parents are going through?