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Whompa

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,254
Literally admitting that you lack any empathy for those who aren't you isn't a great way to get people on your side.

Little reductive.

That might've been true five years ago, but definitely not nowadays. To compare two current EA games, Apex is F2P while also only having cosmetic MTX, while FIFA is a full price retail game that makes most of its money off of the pay to win FUT card packs.

It's probably still true when you consider the entire gaming industry. Apex has a horrendous model attached to it. I would have gladly paid money for that game to mitigate that shit store and horrible grind.

either way, the conversation is veering into another problem. Epic being happy with their business with Deep Silver is a win in my book.
 

maximumzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,907
New Orleans, LA
I miss the days of physical media for PC games. Go to store, buy game, pop in diskette/disc, play.

Admittedly I bailed on PC Gaming before online DRM got ridiculous, so I'm sure that wouldn't be the scenario in 2019.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
While this is true, I don't think you can really claim that their strategy is "working" because the entire ecosystem is being underwritten by Epic themselves. Being an active participant in the ecosystem at this point means nothing financially unless users are buying moneyhatted games in enough volume to offset the initial investment. Which, given that hastily thrown together sale that they did, I doubt.
Well of course, no one knows but the people with the numbers. But you can generally surmise based on their strategy. Here, "working" doesn't mean they're turning a profit (they probably won't for a long time), it just means that they believe they're en route to doing so.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,165
To add on to my previous "the main goal is the userbase" post, one other fortuitous thing for Epic is that a large quantity of their current base is likely children, a good portion of which haven't had time to inundate themselves with free games on steam, or used it much at all. To that end, while most current steam users have already assembled a library and become comfortable w/ the client and possibly it's features, leaving little reason to go to EGS beyond exclusives, there is probably a whole bunch of ppl who pretty much mainly game by launching Fortnite through Epic and don't feel the need to "shop" in between stores.

tho it's doubtful still that Epic can really box w/ god here to me
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
This is such a wild post, and to be fair, no one in the world but Tim Sweeney can tell you what Tim Sweeney is thinking. But I don't agree with your assessment.

Epic's in a position where all of their eggs are in the Fortnite basket. Like any successful company, their goal is to grow YoY. A close parallel would be Riot Games with LOL, but the difference here is that while Riot has been trying to put out Game #2 for the better part of 7 years, Epic realized that trying to create a hit has a much smaller ROI than leveraging their existing connections in the game industry to venture into the storefront/publishing business. In a sense, Valve realized this same thing years ago.

Epic doesn't invest as heavily in features because they understand (and it's the truth!) that features don't have the same ROI as simply buying users. It's not that this is unprecedented either—actually, this is the oldest trick in the book—paid user acquisition. Except instead of dumping millions of dollars on TV ads, this money goes to exclusive games that draws in their own organic users. They view their exclusivity deal and free games budget as their user acquisition budget, and based on their escalations of these programs, it would seem that they're working in converting this users to active participants in their ecosystem.

I'm not claiming to know what he's thinking, I can only derive my conclusion based on his own words and actions. And he admitted as much in a tweet:



Are you saying this is merely part of a business strategy? That their business idea is built upon the fact that Valve has to modify their own cut?

This is without a question unprecedented. We've never seen companies in this industry investing upwards of hundreds of millions of dollars on exclusivities and free games in such a short time span, securing nearly 100 exclusives within 9 months to a purely digital storefront. While free games and exclusivity is nothing new, you can't argue what Epic is doing here is just the old, conventional way of doing business. It has been a standard in the console space, but even then; they've never been this aggressive.

The odd thing is, the console space is perfect for a exclusive strategy model since it's a closed eco-system, where people are more likely to be invested in it as soon as they acquire a particular console, for natural reasons. Meanwhile on PC, there's no incentive to remain invested in an eco-system like EGS, since I can just go elsewhere if there's a better service that offers the same game. So it's unprecedented in that it is also completely unsustainable.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
I'm not claiming to know what he's thinking, I can only derive my conclusion based on his own words and actions. And he admitted as much in a tweet:



Are you saying this is merely part of a business strategy? That their business idea is built upon the fact that Valve has to modify their own cut?

This is without a question unprecedented. We've never seen companies in this industry investing upwards of hundreds of millions of dollars on exclusivities and free games in such a short time span, securing nearly 100 exclusives within 9 months to a purely digital storefront. While free games and exclusivity is nothing new, you can't argue what Epic is doing here is just the old, conventional way of doing business. It has been a standard in the console space, but even then; they've never been this aggressive.

The odd thing is, the console space is perfect for a exclusive strategy model since it's a closed eco-system, where people are more likely to be invested in it as soon as they acquire the console, for natural reasons. Meanwhile on PC, there's no incentive to remain invested in the Epic eco-system, I can just go elsewhere if there's a better service that offers the same game. So it's unprecedented in that it is also completely unsustainable.

Again, you need to look at it as a user acquisition budget. In terms of pure numbers, Epic's exclusivity spending is on par or even below major UA spenders. "Hundreds of millions" is what King spends in a few months on UA.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,165
i am pretty sure he is full of it when he says that, not purchasing exclusives and retailing on the same field as valve means there is essentially no reason to go with EGS (in the case that a consumer "shops" around storefronts, which isn't always the case)

tho I guess he gets to pat himself on the back while EGS is dying that he was able to change the standard

but imo it's not really good to give energy to tweets like that
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
i am pretty sure he is full of it when he says that, not purchasing exclusives and retailing on the same field as valve means there is essentially no reason to go with EGS

tho I guess he gets to pat himself on the back while EGS is dying that he was able to change the standard

but imo it's not really good to give energy to tweets like that
This, basically. I don't think Tim's being genuine about that. It's a bluff he can make because he knows Valve would never do that.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,947
Let's see how sales are on EGS for games that aren't exclusive. If Cyberpunk, et al comes out and has more than a single digit percentage for EGS sales, then we can start popping bottles.

I keep seeing talk that EGS is great and sales have been good *for the exclusives*. Like no shit, did you think we just weren't gonna buy it? If it's the only place on PC to get it then no wonder numbers are good.
I'm still pretty confident that Metro sold more copies on Steam in that brief moment before it was taken off than it has on EGS.
 

MrBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,668
I feel deja vu seeing this story pop back up. Slow news day for GameSpot?

Also no exec is ever going to talk bad about a monetary deal so they will spin positive always.

In the stock market there are always coordinated pumps to push a stock price higher.
This feels the same between ubi and koch today.
 
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BrutalInsane

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,080
I'm still pretty confident that Metro sold more copies on Steam in that brief moment before it was taken off than it has on EGS.

I rushed to buy it because I loved the first two games. I also learned a lesson to not rush to buy a game if it EGS snatches it up and wait for impressions first, since Exodus blows. So, thanks Tim?
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,165
I mean I dunno how crazy the video game industry gets, like I'm not really part of it, but it'd be so wild to me to have someone say that they are happy w/ how the game is selling on EGS if this were the case:

I'm still pretty confident that Metro sold more copies on Steam in that brief moment before it was taken off than it has on EGS.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Which is what I was saying, you don't care about them doing good but they do, and you being turned away is something they do not care about, like you don't care about them, many people still buy those exclusives, which is what they wanted, andis better than having nothing

I guess alienating your potential customer base is as valid a strategy as any other. I'll wait to see how it works out for them. My guess? Not well.
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,181
lol, the way the subject is phrased makes me think:

hailants.jpg

Lol man, I came in here to post exactly this. Kudos!
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
Again, you need to look at it as a user acquisition budget. In terms of pure numbers, Epic's exclusivity spending is on par or even below major UA spenders. "Hundreds of millions" is what King spends in a few months on UA.
That means absolutely nothing. Not only is that a completely different market, but King has an active userbase of 400 million people each month. They're not even remotely comparable.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
That means absolutely nothing. Not only is that a completely different market, but King has an active userbase of 400 million people each month. They're not even remotely comparable.
They're quite comparable. Fortnite is a major player on mobile, where they probably seasoned their UA strategy.

MAU and user acquisition budgets are very different things though and not directly correlated, not sure why you're even bringing that up.
 

Dogenzaka

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 20, 2019
803
I'll welcome it when it gets some some of the most basic features a digital distribution platform should have.
 

DarkDetective

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,906
The Netherlands
I don't see how Epic Games Store's current business strategy of stealing away games from other storefronts is sustainable. I understand that exclusively offering wanted games will attract people to your storefront, but the displeasure among the potential consumers about how/when these exclusives are secured will hurt EGS in the long run. People don't use EGS because they want to, or they like the platform, or think it's a better offer to them than the competition. Instead, people use EGS because they have no other choice for certain products, so they play those games using EGS (or don't play them at all), and then keep spending the rest of their play time on Steam or GOG or other storefronts. It doesn't help that EGS is so tightly curated. Games get rejected for numerous other reasons than plain lack of quality, so limits the store's appeal to the audience.

I'm afraid that EGS is lose its relevance as soon as the stream of bought exclusives stops, because the consumers don't have any emotional investment in the platform at all.

Edit: That doesn't mean that I think companies like 2K and Deep Silver aren't allowed to profit off that. They should take the chances they're offered, and this one sounds like a really good one. If I were an executive at a publisher like Deep Silver, I would probably do the same. So good on them. I think Epic will have a big problem in the long run however.
 
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saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I think the problem in your argument is that I have absolutely no issues with paying full price.

I mean, if a game is literally the same price everywhere, what is the point of competition for the customer? You could argue quality of service instead of price, but then i ask what is the point of the Epic store since its quality of service is magnitudes inferior to pretty much any other?

No matter how you people slice it, Epic has brought literally nothing to the table that benefits the customer, and most of its claims of helping developers are dubious at best. The only ones getting anything positive out of this experiment are a few already established and celebrated devs, the mega publishers taking the extra free money and Timmy's little ego.
 

BigBlue

Alt-Account
Banned
Jun 6, 2019
203
Great to hear. Absolutely love EGS and I hope they keep the awesome games coming
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
But because it was a payout we cannot be sure if this is genuine or just a try at another pay out.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
They're quite comparable. Fortnite is a major player on mobile, where they probably seasoned their UA strategy.

MAU and user acquisition budgets are very different things though and not directly correlated, not sure why you're even bringing that up.
This makes no sense at all.

There's no question they're correlated. The whole reason King spends that amount of money is because their userbase is that big in the first place. You're not going to spend the same amount of money as King does if your MAU is 1 million.
 

Whompa

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,254
There are tons of good arguments against the EGS store because you don't care to read and wanna troll, it's easier for you not to see them.

I dunno if I'd say he's trolling. Maybe lower effort. But I dunno if he's saying anything that isn't improper considering the consistent nags with the EGS.

What would be, in your mind, the best solve to "the EGS problem?"
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,089
Pakistan
No. Mr. executive. Please GTFO with that dismissive attitude. If you so want money and are in need of it, how about making a donations page so that people donate shit to you and your devs without actually buying your product since all you need is a bucket load of cash?

Iam not willing to buy a product on an extremely inferior launcher/storefront thats backed by a company that does things with ill intent and only for benefiting themselves.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
I dunno if I'd say he's trolling. Maybe lower effort. But I dunno if he's saying anything that isn't improper considering the consistent nags with the EGS.

What would be, in your mind, the best solve to "the EGS problem?"
It will solve itself because Epic is not going to stick with it for the long term eventually they will give up and move onto something else and just keep the EGS store running at the bare minimum and probably blame pc gamers for not supporting them like they did in the past. If the games were selling tons, they would be talking about it at every opportunity instead we have had only a few instances of games selling really well on the store, I will continue not to support EGS and I know I am not alone in that.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
I welcome it, and wish that publishers put games on more than just Steam when the exclusive deal is up. This gives a possibility for games to start showing up on other stores when they would probably only be a Steam game.
 

BrutalInsane

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,080
Let's be fair here..

The game is very pretty and has a nice benchmark.

Off topic to this thread, but yeah, it looked great, I'm looking forward to checking it out on my new RTX card. That being said, I'm a 'gameplay over story' guy, and the endless, never ending slog of exposition made my eyes glaze over. The second one character told me to 'sit down' before going into a monologue I knew that it would be my most despised game of the year.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
Wouldnt their deal help 4A games NOT go under? Because the publisher made its money back before the game was even released?

I'd rather customers buy my game then big corporations that use it for their self serving needs.
Your fan base will be there for you. Corporations will use you until you're not serving their needs and then discard you.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
This makes no sense at all.

There's no question they're correlated. The whole reason King spends that amount of money is because their userbase is that big in the first place. You're not going to spend the same amount of money as King does if your MAU is 1 million.
MAU is a function of retention. UA spend is only tangentially related by way of LTV but is more of a matter of scale and CPI.

A company like Machine Zone used to spend comparable amounts but never reached the same magnitude of MAU.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Their store split is very much welcomed. If they can make that their core sales pitch and people choose to buy a game on their store than someone else's because of it, that's cool. Especially when combined with their regular free games and whatnot, there is a lot of potential for positive PR and imagery.

Pushing studios into exclusivity deals that would have otherwise made their products broadly available is not welcomed and will never be welcomed. This activity and aspect of their business model is unnecessary and is hurting their image greatly.
 

CthulhuSars

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,906
Their store split is very much welcomed. If they can make that their core sales pitch and people choose to buy a game on their store than someone else's, that's cool.

Pushing studios into exclusivity deals that would have otherwise made their products broadly available is not welcomed and will never be welcomed.

This is where I stand. I think Epic having a discussion about store split is a discussion that needs to be had.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,708
Does "I won't support them because PC is historically an open platform and we don't need to go the route of 3rd-party exclusives" work for you? Just want to make sure before I continue not buying games from them.
What makes the EGS store more closed then lets say the Blizzard store? 'Exclusive' doesn't make much sense to me as your PC can run both Steam, EGS and any other free stores. I don't mean this as a snarky remark. I honestly don't understand much of the rage.