• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

feyder

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,156
I haven't watched a single episode of this show since the episode in season 5 where Sansa is raped, precisely because they fast forwarded through all her development in the book by just simply having her raped instead. It's awful, sexist, and lazy. It's just terrible writing in every way possible.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,495
I don't think they were necessarily saying that being raped made her stronger. I think they were saying her exposure to the horrors of the real world made her stronger than if she were married off as some Lord's lady.

At least, that's how I took it.
Yeah, if it had just been about the rape she wouldn't have to mention little finger
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,503
I don't think they were necessarily saying that being raped made her stronger. I think they were saying her exposure to the horrors of the real world made her stronger than if she were married off as some Lord's lady.

At least, that's how I took it.

Well is her rape not part of that horror? Even without that its messed up to me, that's not how horrors work, only people whom haven't been through horror's would think that. "Well you survived, it's was worth it because it made you stronger!!". And if it didn't make you stronger? Your a failure somehow?

I hate media that does this.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
This is a bad thread, I want you to know this.
Well is her rape not part of that horror? Even without that its messed up to me, that's not how horrors work, only people whom haven't been through horror's would think that. "Well you survived, it's was worth it because it made you stronger!!". And if it didn't make you stronger? Your a failure somehow?

I hate media that does this.

I think the point was that given the events in Game of Thrones - being protected as a "Little Bird" would have likely ended in her being powerless and dead.

The phrasing of the line could've been better but I think people are reaching if they think it was suggested Sansa is thankful and empowered by the horrors she has endured. She was just being stoic and not letting the Hound patronise her.
 

Deleted member 25712

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,803
If D&D hate women, what can we then say about GRRM? Because they temper the source material a lot, on this aspect.

Uhh, not really. The source material definitely has rape, and underage/otherwise fucked up sex stuff. It doesn't try to justify any of it or make it a point of "if not for this experience..." kind of thing.

There's presenting a fucked up thing as fucked up, and there's presenting a fucked up thing as somehow a good thing in the end because it led to something good. I don't think the source material really strays into that latter category. However, characters seeking meaning in their own experiences may go that direction, as show Sansa seems to have. Her line definitely made me cringe, but I don't necessarily know that the show was trying to make the case that her brutal experiences were a good thing. It really could have been the character herself making the case, as people do in real life to cope with those experiences. That said, the previous uhh...follies in how the show has handled stuff certainly warrants the questioning here.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,114
Yeah, if it had just been about the rape she wouldn't have to mention little finger

And the biggest thing Littlefinger did to her was give her to the known rapist.

If it wasn't just about the rape and more about how abuse and horrors molded her then she already had that beforehand. That's the thing that doesn't make sense. If she goes with the hound when he wanted her to is she saved from horrors? Fuck no. She was already tortured daily by Joffrey.
 

StarStorm

"This guy are sick"
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,625
I don't think they were necessarily saying that being raped made her stronger. I think they were saying her exposure to the horrors of the real world made her stronger than if she were married off as some Lord's lady.

At least, that's how I took it.
This is how I read it too. The Hound pointed it out quite bluntly, but Sansa didn't let it get to her.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,085
How much rape is on this show? Not a fan of rape scenes tbh and would appreciate a heads up.

Like a lot. There's a whole ceremony in the 2nd(?) episode of gang rape for the mongol tribe analogue wedding, and then the bride (who was married off) is basically forced upon as well, but she gets a cool dragon later because it made her stronger 🤷‍♂️

It's pretty terrible.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,066
Houston
hey thanks for the title spoiler
Thanks for the title.
Haven't watched the episode yet, thanks for your title, asshole.
Yeah why would you spoil this shit? Jesus ;.
Fucking spoiler thread title! I'm really sick of all these GOT and Endgame threads with all these minor details slowly adding up to spoilers. How can I message mods about this?
Spoiler in title and before even aired on west coast? Don't be like this.



What do you expect? Derails your own thread from the start
What the hell with the title. I dont want any tease outside official teaser for this episode.
The fuck is wrong with you. A character talking about something that happened to them in a episode seasons ago is not a fucking spoiler.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,085
Spoiler in title and before even aired on west coast? Don't be like this.



What do you expect? Derails your own thread from the start

How is saying "Let's talk about the scene where characters talk about rape" a spoiler in a show where rape occurs as often as characters drink water? Like there's no context in the title. There's no characters. There's no depiction of the scene other than the subject matter that happened prior to the episode. It could have been a scene with any of the women characters. Saying this show has rape and conversations about rape in previous and upcoming episodes IS NOT A SPOILER.
 

Bear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,957
Well is her rape not part of that horror? Even without that its messed up to me, that's not how horrors work, only people whom haven't been through horror's would think that. "Well you survived, it's was worth it because it made you stronger!!". And if it didn't make you stronger? Your a failure somehow?

I hate media that does this.
Well, what's the message you would send in that instance then? What's the alternative to coming out of a horrid experience stronger?

I read this conversation as "life is fucking horrible, some terrible shit happened to you, but you survived."
 

Deleted member 9714

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,882
I'm so glad I dropped this garbage after the first episode. Even just reading about it makes me feel gross.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,869
How is saying "Let's talk about the scene where characters talk about rape" a spoiler in a show where rape occurs as often as characters drink water? Like there's no context in the title. There's no characters. There's no depiction of the scene other than the subject matter that happened prior to the episode. It could have been a scene with any of the women characters. Saying this show has rape and conversations about rape in previous and upcoming episodes IS NOT A SPOILER.
The fuck is wrong with you. A character talking about something that happened to them in a episode seasons ago is not a fucking spoiler.


Unless you've seen the episode the title comes across as if there is gonna a rape scene in the episode. At no point does the title make it clear that it's alluding to a rape that occured seasons ago.

It's a perfectly fine mistake to make.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,085
Unless you've seen the episode the title comes across as if there is gonna a rape scene in the episode. At no point does the title make it clear that it's alluding to a rape that occured seasons ago.

And guess what that's not the case, so at worst it's a faux-spoiler and you will still be surprised/don't know what is going to happen in the episode other than you expecting a rape scene that doesn't occur. Your expectations are a spoiler?
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,970
The fuck is wrong with you. A character talking about something that happened to them in a episode seasons ago is not a fucking spoiler.
The title said something about a conversation in the newest episode. It's not much and it's not even the biggest problem. The problem is that other people then come in thinking it's fine to talk about MORE in that episode. It was soooo easy to avoid though with a better title and a spoiler-warning.

For some a spoiler means "info about key elements of the episode" for some it means "any info about the episode".

To be clear, i agree the content of the topic is worthwhile and important to discuss.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,085
The title said something about a conversation in the newest episode. It's not much and it's not even the biggest problem. The problem is that other people then come in thinking it's fine to talk about MORE in that episode. It was soooo easy to avoid though with a better title and a spoiler-warning.

For some a spoiler means "info about key elements of the episode" for some it means "any info about the episode".

To be clear, i agree the content of the topic is worthwhile and important to discuss.

Seems pretty obvious to see a thread titled GAME OF THRONES and not enter said thread if you don't want to know what's happening. Like I have not clicked on any Avenger threads in the past month because I haven't seen Endgame and know talk about it will inadvertently lead to things I don't want to hear. The vague title itself is not a spoiler.
 

Geist

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,582
In all fairness wouldn't that mean GRRM hates them too? GoT was at its most rapey when it was adapting the books more closely. It got decisively less rapey (and less nudity ridden fwiw) when the show went past the books.

I'm not defending this scene in question from the latest episode but do you see my point? I could make a case that when D&D became the lead creators without books to base on they greatly reduced the amount of rape featured in their show and that's just a statistical fact.
Yeah but rape in the books is way worse so I 1/2 see where he's coming from
If D&D hate women, what can we then say about GRRM? Because they temper the source material a lot, on this aspect.
The difference between GRRM and D&D is that, as far as I remember, GRRM doesn't do play-by-plays of the rapes, they're fucked up things that happen in this universe and the books just let you know they happen. Meanwhile, D&D think there wasn't enough rape, so they invent new rapes that happen to main characters and make sure the camera is focused on the woman's face while its happening. And I guess try to imply that the rape strengthened their character. *sigh*
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
You people look for shit to complain about. It's ridiculous. Rape made me stronger? How does that scene fly over your heads. She's talking about everything she's been through,
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
Here's the thing. The character exists and talks only because the show lets him. These are choices the show runners made, which is why, if they handle it badly, it comes back to them.
A character can be rude about another's rape, but then you have to ask "why? What is the purpose of this? Did it have to happen in this context? Why about rape, specifically? Hell, why even bother to put these characters together if that's all that you could think to do?"




(I feel like I shouldn't have to mention I'm in a PhD program studying creative writing and literature, but maybe I do? We talk about these concerns all the time)
Nothing in this post illuminates the discussion. Whatever "the thing" is that you're reaching for here, facile tea-leaf reading into the minds of the writers who dared to have an incredibly rude character say something and get immediately owned is not really an interesting avenue of discussion for me, nor do I find your education-in-progress particularly justifying of such a discussion. The story is taking place in a world full of horrors and horrible people, so saying what happened out loud is one of the least harsh things the viewers are exposed to re: Sansa's past. Meanwhile, the only thing we know about the point of view of the show is that it believes Sansa is an incredibly strong person who has been through shit and can hold her own in unpleasant conversations in which she is being condescended to by someone treating her trauma incredibly indelicately.

The social grace of an asshole character is not a window into the soul of the person writing their lines; the way in which they're soundly rebuked makes the asshole character a setup for an easy win for someone with half an ounce of manners, and Sansa's past is being brought up for reasons you don't know yet because we haven't seen her really make her move as the Lady of Winterfell during the war, other than her attempt to rip apart Dany's inner circle by gossiping w/Tyrion, Littlefinger style -- a person she referenced in that conversation, if you were listening. Which it doesn't seem like you were, or you would probably have connected Littlefinger's name being in her mouth to the action she takes this episode, rather than zeroing in on someone mentioning rape like it's actually the key to anything at all.
 
Last edited:

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,970
Seems pretty obvious to see a thread titled GAME OF THRONES and not enter said thread if you don't want to know what's happening. Like I have not clicked on any Avenger threads in the past month because I haven't seen Endgame and know talk about it will inadvertently lead to things I don't want to hear. The vague title itself is not a spoiler.
The title was changed but still isn't very good imo. Anyway, tonight i'll be watching.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,958
They also turned Daenerys's first night with Khal Drogo into a rape scene in the show when it wasn't portrayed as such in the books.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,048
Game of Thrones has, especially in recent times, descended into some seriously dumb as fuck writing, dialogue, character arcs, and narrative beats, but interpreting that scene explicitly or even marginally directly as "Rape makes a woman stronger" is particularly asinine and a woeful misread of the interaction taking place. Of all the questionable shit that this series has pumped out regarding the treatment of women, rampant sexploitation, and gross misuse of rape as a plot device, this is so far down the bottom of the list that I'd question if it's ever on it.

EDIT: To clarify my read on the scene so it doesn't seem like I'm just hand waving things, it all seemed pretty obvious to me. The Hound is shown in several scenes prior being a bitter, miserable cunt unwilling and unable to celebrate like those around him. He has no joyful investment in the victory or the celebration of life, because he doesn't care about his own. He's riddled with feelings of living a miserable, violent, awful life and unable to recognise the small amounts of good he has contributed. And like any miserable, self loathing sack of shit in this moment instead decides to lash out everyone. The scenes highlight this. He refuses to stand and celebrate, and he frightens off the woman making advancements. Easy to justify your misery and awful life when you're comfortable in everyone being afraid of you.

Sansa's approach is to explicitly contrast this. She used to be terrified of him, and now she's not. Sandor quickly picks up on this and in his drunken, miserable awfulness of which he has demonstrated literally countless times throughout the series grabs the most offensive, confronting thing he can to stab her with. Because a response of repulsion and fear is the only one that'll justify his bullshit.

And Sansa doesn't give it to him. She stares him down, takes his needless verbal shit, and moves on. And her highlighting of Littlefinger and Ramsay isn't her saying "I was raped and that was great because it made me strong!", it's recognising the encompassing awfulness of her life trajectory thus far and the strength she's leveraged from this exposure to the real world of Westeros, giving her the courage to be the person she is.

It's character contrast, because Sandor has also had a fucking awful, miserable life of bullshit and here is he looking at a character that's gone through arguably far worse and isn't totally broken because of it. Her rejection of "little dove" is a rejection of his infantilisation of her adult hood, and mocks his simplistic, juvenile perspective of her character and womanhood. Much in the same way that Ayra rejects Gendry. Neither will be reduced to hyper masculine traits of purity, innocents, and being broken as women. Both are strong because of the lives they've experienced, in all their greatness and awfulness.

Ayra and Sandor's interactions last episode strike similar parallels; the little girls who he once tried so hard to tire out with his miserable, self loathing masculinity have grown up and moved on from his bullshit. And it's about time he did too.
 
Last edited:

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,511
this episode was peak sexism and anyone who says otherwise is a dude and/or has a terrible case of brain worms

  • "being raped made sansa stronger therefore our disgusting sexist handling of her character was totally justified lol"
  • sticking the black woman who is a freed slave back in chains then cutting her head off to make her bf and bff MAD
  • showing dany, who has suffered countless horrors, as a crazy bitch who's probably gonna have to be put down by her menz bc she's... justifiably upset about losing almost everyone and everything she cares about?
  • sansa scheming against dany because. reasons. women are catty i guess??
and before anyone comes in going WELL ACKSHUALLEEE consider. that perhaps. if a woman is saying something is sexist. YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HER MAYBE just a thought. and i am NOT the only one saying this.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,123
Nothing in this post illuminates the discussion. Whatever "the thing" is that you're reaching for here, facile tea-leaf reading into the minds of the writers who dared to have an incredibly rude character say something and get immediately owned is not really an interesting avenue of discussion for me, nor do I find your education-in-progress particularly justifying of such a discussion. The story is taking place in a world full of horrors and horrible people, so saying what happened out loud is one of the least harsh things the viewers are exposed to re: Sansa's past. Meanwhile, the only thing we know about the point of view of the show is that it believes Sansa is an incredibly strong person who has been through shit and can hold her own in unpleasant conversations in which she is being condescended to by someone treating her trauma incredibly indelicately.

The social grace of an asshole character is not a window into the soul of the person writing their lines; the way in which they're soundly rebuked makes the asshole character a setup for an easy win for someone with half an ounce of manners, and Sansa's past is being brought up for reasons you don't know yet because we haven't seen her really make her move as the Lady of Winterfell during the war, other than her attempt to rip apart Dany's inner circle by gossiping w/Tyrion, Littlefinger style -- a person she referenced in that conversation, if you were listening. Which it doesn't seem like you were, or you would probably have connected Littlefinger's name being in her mouth to the action she takes this episode, rather than zeroing in on someone mentioning rape like it's actually the key to anything at all.
And nothing you've said addresses the points I've raised. The writers are in control of the characters, and explaining the character as being "rude" handwaves the entire rest of the show's context of sexual assualt. Yes, the world of Westeros is shitty, but it is shitty without a point, particularly when it comes to sexual assault and rape.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,488
If D&D hate women, what can we then say about GRRM? Because they temper the source material a lot, on this aspect.
No they don't.
At no point does the title make it clear that it's alluding to a rape that occured seasons ago.
(SPOILERS for Season 5)

I mean...
The title was changed but still isn't very good imo.
OK I give up. How would you title it?
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
this episode was peak sexism and anyone who says otherwise is a dude and/or has a terrible case of brain worms

  • "being raped made sansa stronger therefore our disgusting sexist handling of her character was totally justified lol"
  • sticking the black woman who is a freed slave back in chains then cutting her head off to make her bf and bff MAD
  • showing dany, who has suffered countless horrors, as a crazy bitch who's probably gonna have to be put down by her menz bc she's... justifiably upset about losing almost everyone and everything she cares about?
  • sansa scheming against dany because. reasons. women are catty i guess??
and before anyone comes in going WELL ACKSHUALLEEE consider. that perhaps. if a woman is saying something is sexist. YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HER MAYBE just a thought. and i am NOT the only one saying this.

Yes it's a massive festering dumpster fire at this point.
 
Oct 31, 2017
570
User Banned (3 Days): Thread whining in a sensitive topic
I wish for once people could just relax and stop policing every bit of media for "problematic" content.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,257
The Cyclone State
I love how people are finally starting to realize just how much of GoT sucks and how lame Benioff and Weiss are as writers. It seems the honeymoon period with this show is finally over lol.
The show does not suck. Stop it.

I figured this would be a weird thing to look back on. I also took it as all the shit Sansa has been through has made her who she is today, but I can see the issues with the line.

this episode was peak sexism and anyone who says otherwise is a dude and/or has a terrible case of brain worms

  • "being raped made sansa stronger therefore our disgusting sexist handling of her character was totally justified lol"
  • sticking the black woman who is a freed slave back in chains then cutting her head off to make her bf and bff MAD
  • showing dany, who has suffered countless horrors, as a crazy bitch who's probably gonna have to be put down by her menz bc she's... justifiably upset about losing almost everyone and everything she cares about?
  • sansa scheming against dany because. reasons. women are catty i guess??
and before anyone comes in going WELL ACKSHUALLEEE consider. that perhaps. if a woman is saying something is sexist. YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HER MAYBE just a thought. and i am NOT the only one saying this.

I'm going to disagree with some of this. But I can't say much without open spoilers. Dany's path has been on a knife's edge for seasons, and the last 2 episodes have pushed her further down. it wasn't some immediate turn. And Sansa scheming is clearly because she rules the north and believes in family over some Queen from overseas.
 

M.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,059
1000% percent. People are choosing to misinterpret her rape as the entire cause of her character development, ignoring everything else she's gone through. It's stupid, lazy criticism.

This is where I stand on it.

Hound was clearly not trying to be nice to Sansa. Why would somebody even mention her time with Ramsay? He's an asshole. His source of strength comes from his own trauma of being abused by the Mountain as a child. So maybe he was trying to relate. Of course Sansa wishes the bad stuff didn't happen, but she is allowed to grow and not be a shell of a person because of her terrible marriages. "Without them I'd still be that little bird." seemed as honest of a reflection as her character could make.

I never got the sense that Sansa being raped was any justification for her becoming the lady she is.

How is saying "Let's talk about the scene where characters talk about rape" a spoiler in a show where rape occurs as often as characters drink water? Like there's no context in the title. There's no characters. There's no depiction of the scene other than the subject matter that happened prior to the episode. It could have been a scene with any of the women characters. Saying this show has rape and conversations about rape in previous and upcoming episodes IS NOT A SPOILER.

They didn't even "talk about rape". The timing of the thread made it so people like myself are gonna say, "wtf i didnt see the episode yet", instead of talking about the OP itself. The title did not need to mention "in the latest episode" to talk about the writing of Sansa's character. You could have put in a little more effort to the title.
 

Geist

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,582
this episode was peak sexism and anyone who says otherwise is a dude and/or has a terrible case of brain worms

  • "being raped made sansa stronger therefore our disgusting sexist handling of her character was totally justified lol"
  • sticking the black woman who is a freed slave back in chains then cutting her head off to make her bf and bff MAD
  • showing dany, who has suffered countless horrors, as a crazy bitch who's probably gonna have to be put down by her menz bc she's... justifiably upset about losing almost everyone and everything she cares about?
  • sansa scheming against dany because. reasons. women are catty i guess??
and before anyone comes in going WELL ACKSHUALLEEE consider. that perhaps. if a woman is saying something is sexist. YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HER MAYBE just a thought. and i am NOT the only one saying this.
Can't agree more.
 

rusty chrome

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,640
This season has been pure trash.

They even left a Starbucks cup on a table during one of the most important scenes lol?
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
this episode was peak sexism and anyone who says otherwise is a dude and/or has a terrible case of brain worms

  • "being raped made sansa stronger therefore our disgusting sexist handling of her character was totally justified lol"
  • sticking the black woman who is a freed slave back in chains then cutting her head off to make her bf and bff MAD
  • showing dany, who has suffered countless horrors, as a crazy bitch who's probably gonna have to be put down by her menz bc she's... justifiably upset about losing almost everyone and everything she cares about?
  • sansa scheming against dany because. reasons. women are catty i guess??
and before anyone comes in going WELL ACKSHUALLEEE consider. that perhaps. if a woman is saying something is sexist. YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HER MAYBE just a thought. and i am NOT the only one saying this.
I'm with you on points 2 and 4, but you are definitely the only one saying Dany's moves are not beginning to be really alarming and unsustainable (point 3) -- you don't just tell your dude to deny their identity to their family for the rest of their life because there's a job you want that he is more qualified for.

And, well, point 1 is pretty debatable, per this thread.

And, it does seem like you're making point 4 while forgetting that Sansa trusts her family and is seeing Dany's actions get more aggressive and erratic just like us, while knowing that she doesn't have the claim she says she has.

Hm.

And nothing you've said addresses the points I've raised. The writers are in control of the characters, and explaining the character as being "rude" handwaves the entire rest of the show's context of sexual assualt. Yes, the world of Westeros is shitty, but it is shitty without a point, particularly when it comes to sexual assault and rape.
I fully addressed the "points" you made, which are that you are misreading the scene, missed the point of that conversation and how it was reflected in the character's actions, and you otherwise have no idea what they're building up to with Sansa so are unable to tell people that it's pointless no matter how much you wave your gonna-be-a-degree in their face.
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,503
Well, what's the message you would send in that instance then? What's the alternative to coming out of a horrid experience stronger?

I read this conversation as "life is fucking horrible, some terrible shit happened to you, but you survived."

Well they could frame it like it wasn't necessary somehow, saying you survived is fine, but framing traumatic experience's as some narrative where its necessary for you to become stronger is kind of abhorrent. How does that even work? Abuse from your spouse how does that make you stronger when you aren't and never will be strong enough to fight back. How does being raped make you stronger later on? How does going through a horrible experience which you had no control and could do nothing about somehow make you stronger?

The alternative is you made yourself stronger you decided to be stronger. Anything could make you stronger(words and conversations), but its ultimately your inward choice, like what does stronger even mean in this context. Being more confident, less likely to cry, I'm way over thinking but those are clear behavioural choices. They don't require a traumatic event, in fact a traumatic event really is highly unlikely to make you stronger.
 

Dizastah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,126
I don't think they were necessarily saying that being raped made her stronger. I think they were saying her exposure to the horrors of the real world made her stronger than if she were married off as some Lord's lady.

At least, that's how I took it.
This. Tired of people looking for controversy in everything.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,048
They even left a Starbucks cup on a table during one of the most important scenes lol?

I'm seeing this go around a lot like it's some outrageous disastrous lack of attention to detail and embodiment of the series quality, but it's not. Goofs happen in almost if not every production ever made and it's honestly remarkable Game of Thrones has come this far, after eight years, and this is one of the first big ones. Followship of the Ring literally has (or had, if it was edited out in later releases), despite its enormous budget and huge production scope, a lorry van driving along a road in the background of one of the earliest Shire shots.

It happens. Often.
 

Septy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 29, 2017
4,092
United States
this episode was peak sexism and anyone who says otherwise is a dude and/or has a terrible case of brain worms

  • "being raped made sansa stronger therefore our disgusting sexist handling of her character was totally justified lol"
  • sticking the black woman who is a freed slave back in chains then cutting her head off to make her bf and bff MAD
  • showing dany, who has suffered countless horrors, as a crazy bitch who's probably gonna have to be put down by her menz bc she's... justifiably upset about losing almost everyone and everything she cares about?
  • sansa scheming against dany because. reasons. women are catty i guess??
and before anyone comes in going WELL ACKSHUALLEEE consider. that perhaps. if a woman is saying something is sexist. YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HER MAYBE just a thought. and i am NOT the only one saying this.
Starting off with anyone that disagrees with you is sexist is a great way to come across as aggressive. Your first point is just misreading the conversation. I don't see what was wrong with points 2, 3 and 4? Please explain more.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,349
this episode was peak sexism and anyone who says otherwise is a dude and/or has a terrible case of brain worms

  • "being raped made sansa stronger therefore our disgusting sexist handling of her character was totally justified lol"
  • sticking the black woman who is a freed slave back in chains then cutting her head off to make her bf and bff MAD
  • showing dany, who has suffered countless horrors, as a crazy bitch who's probably gonna have to be put down by her menz bc she's... justifiably upset about losing almost everyone and everything she cares about?
  • sansa scheming against dany because. reasons. women are catty i guess??
and before anyone comes in going WELL ACKSHUALLEEE consider. that perhaps. if a woman is saying something is sexist. YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HER MAYBE just a thought. and i am NOT the only one saying this.

don't forget brienne of fucking tarth. most badass warrior in the relm. her entire story. her entire arc is to get validation from the man she's in love with. she finally get sit and becomes a puddle of emotions because he decided to leave her.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
How does going through a horrible experience which you had no control and could do nothing about somehow make you stronger?
I think "stronger" was a poor choice of thread title, when the show is really making the point that it made her less afraid of taking action to defend herself and her family, with violence if she has to, and that in this world, in her position, if she hadn't learned those lessons she would have wound up dead or married off to a tyrant.

As for your question here, um, there are plenty of inspirational examples of people who overcome adversity this way? I'll just pick one off the top of my head: Malala. Feels like a silly comparison to make with Sansa, but -- y'know? It's not like we aren't all dealing with the shit we're dealing with and trying to survive just in late capitalism, even. It doesn't seem far-fetched that someone somewhere would succeed in adapting.
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,023
People saying the episode was extremely sexist I think may be conveniently forgetting that the most powerful characters in the show are still women and that this series takes place in fictional medieval/fantasy times where women had barely any rights or respect to begin with.

Having said that, even in that context, a lot of scenes felt like they could have benefited from more women writers and input. Like Brienne of Tarth becoming a mess just because Jamie does what he's always done
 

Deleted member 25712

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,803
Like a lot. There's a whole ceremony in the 2nd(?) episode of gang rape for the mongol tribe analogue wedding, and then the bride (who was married off) is basically forced upon as well, but she gets a cool dragon later because it made her stronger 🤷‍♂️

It's pretty terrible.

I mean "a lot" is pretty subjective. It's probably less than a scene per season, maybe less than one every other season. Sexual violence and sexual crimes/misdeeds are incredibly off-putting in any amount, however, so anything more than zero can be really too much if it's handled poorly...which this show has a penchant for doing.
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
People saying the episode was extremely sexist I think may be conveniently forgetting that the most powerful characters in the show are still women and that this series takes place in fictional medieval/fantasy times where women had barely any rights or respect to begin with.
not to mention in this episode Tyrion directly calls out how it is bullshit that women rulers aren't respected
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
In all fairness wouldn't that mean GRRM hates them too? GoT was at its most rapey when it was adapting the books more closely. It got decisively less rapey (and less nudity ridden fwiw) when the show went past the books.

I'm not defending this scene in question from the latest episode but do you see my point? I could make a case that when D&D became the lead creators without books to base on they greatly reduced the amount of rape featured in their show and that's just a statistical fact.

This is really far from the truth. They constantly added new rape scenes when they were adapting the books. The entire way they did the Craster's Keep storyline felt the need to add so much more on screen rape than anything in the book. They had it happening in the background of scenes as set decoration.

There is only less now because they literally had to come out and say they were going to put less rape in the show after people got so angry over the added rape of Sansa.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,868
The show is unfortunately showing its colors again.

After getting everyone to hope Women in a Fantasy setting were getting their day (Sansa overcoming, Yara badassery, Dany slaver freeing Dragon riding Undead torching Awesomeness, and Brienne being, well, Brienne...), I think every single female character has had her "tone it down a notch" moment, save Arya (though her running like a frightened little girl in ep3 was a Stark -pun intended- difference with the badass portrayed minutes earlier).

Yara fleeing back to the Iron isles after a Theon rescue, Sansa transforming into a shitty little finger wannabe, Brienne bawling for an hassole who might have given her a pitty fuck, Dany now portrayed as an unhinged despot, Missandei offed for no good reason, Cercei even made worse by the day (if it was possible) fucking Euron and setting up the bloodbath of KL, instead of portrayed as a strong and cunning leader...

And now Sansa even made to pretend Ramsay's deeds just made her stronger, and snickering at how much she loved watching his face get eaten.

We're headed back to Women as evil and victim characters... With Arya as our last hope. Maybe... And she's a ruthless, morally grey assassin.
 

Bear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,957
Well they could frame it like it wasn't necessary somehow, saying you survived is fine, but framing traumatic experience's as some narrative where its necessary for you to become stronger is kind of abhorrent. How does that even work? Abuse from your spouse how does that make you stronger when you aren't and never will be strong enough to fight back. How does being raped make you stronger later on? How does going through a horrible experience which you had no control and could do nothing about somehow make you stronger?

The alternative is you made yourself stronger you decided to be stronger. Anything could make you stronger(words and conversations), but its ultimately your inward choice, like what does stronger even mean in this context. Being more confident, less likely to cry, I'm way over thinking but those are clear behavioural choices. They don't require a traumatic event, in fact a traumatic event really is highly unlikely to make you stronger.
I agree with you, and I agree that the scene wasn't well written. I think I mostly interpreted it as Sansa is stronger in spite of her circumstances rather than because of her circumstances.