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Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
The first part is a good first step as it is actually addressing an issue that has been a long running issue on this site and online in general. Outrage culture, left eating itself, woke culture, and bad faith arguing are all used incorrectly by people and used primarily as a way to dismiss people as not being genuine so that they don't have to actually entertain that they could be wrong. It's incredibly similar to the arguments that people have used in the past that accuse people of virtue signalling which has been actioned quite a bit, which is why it was frustrating to see things regress on this front.

The issue that exists within the pronoun section is the implications that doing something like that carries if it's not explicitly said. People who willfully misgender trans people are telling us that they don't really see trans people as the gender that we are, that we aren't valid. When someone does this explicitly for all trans people, that is abundantly clear. However, there are times where someone will see a trans person doing something criminal and they'll start to fall back into using the wrong pronouns. This shows that they don't see us as valid as much as they see our identities as a courtesy or a polite gesture that can be taken back when needed. We have been told in the past that people who do not see trans women as women, trans men as men, or trans people in general as valid will be perma'd instantly when they reveal this, and I think that willful misgendering should fall into that category as well.

And you're right that trans people are individuals, but you sort of start to counteract that with your very next part. Staff members and regular members are not treated the same way, and it's always been apparent to everyone who posts on this forum to the point that it's a running joke in a lot of circles here. I'm not talking about who makes decisions on reports, but the way that hostility is treated as well as the way that bigotry is actioned. If someone insults another member, they'll get a warning or at most a day ban if they don't have a history. But, if someone comes after the moderation or express frustration they'll more than likely get 5 days to a week at minimum. I don't think that you all should be facing harassment of any kind, but this is one of the easily verifiable things on the site that people have seen.

The way that bigotry is handled by people on Staff is also a bit strange. There was that one transphobic post by a moderator that when posted by anyone else would have been a month ban, but in this case, they were just talked to and allowed to stay on the team. When evidence was presented of how they had said these things throughout their time on GAF before this, it was dismissed and considered resolved. There are also chats that have been shown to people about a moderator on the staff talking in the discord about how Asexuals should not be a part of the LGBT+ community and instead of any challenging or talking through, was essentially told that people could see where they were coming from, to not feel bad, and then dropped.

These things are always going to be treated differently because these people that are on the team are more easily reached, more easily talked to than the people on the forum, but these double standards that people see on top of the regressions that have happened in some topics are going to frustrate people. Of course you guys care about the site, but you often seem to be under the impression that you're the only ones who do and the rest of us are just trying to stick it to you instead of doing what we can from our own end. The users of this site are people too, and you can't expect us to take just as much abuse as you when we have no ways of pushing back against it.

It's not that you all aren't open to listening or feedback, so much as the opinions on people of staff are typically held higher than the rest. Which is somewhat understandable as you're able to have longer and more in-depth conversations as you're in a discord together, but is part of the issue I have with this "Trans people are individuals" line. I get what your point is. There are threads where people are upset about an issue going on and telling someone that they don't care about trans issues without knowing the first thing about the person they're talking to. That isn't good, and that should be taken care of, but when we're able to recognize that trans people are going to differ on some of these minute topics it can't all come down to the weight of whichever trans mod is online at that particular moment to make the call every time. Because I'm dating someone who was on the mod team for almost 2 years and had a lot of conversations with you all, I know that it's rare for more than one trans mod to be around and tackling reports. And I think you all need to be more open to the idea that people aren't reporting what they see as bigotry for no reason.
This was a great post and she got banned for it? Really? REALLY???
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,905
Let's not take this thread from trans people irritated and upset because of a perceived blind spot in moderation, to labouring how trans people handled that upset toward those that have been in a position to stop it and post the above during any one of the numerous threads this was a growing problem in.

The frustration didn't appear out of nowhere, nor in a day. So while I empathise and will put less bite into posts in the future, I think a valid counterbalance to people being frustrated at the moderation is why it got to that point and stayed there for a fair while. This seems to be remedied in recent threads and actions, and hopefully paves the way for the relationship across both parties to be better bridged.

That's my last thoughts on it, so as not to push the bar too far. I've just got off of a 3 day ban and missed out on the Death Stranding fun. Really don't want the same for Pokémon. So please take the words as a discussion and not an attack. Prior bite was massively attributable to the frustration felt at the time, most of it following weeks of the issues the thread is about and culminating in that truscum confession.

I'm appreciative of the moderation staff for the work they do, and love the forum. Which only served to exacerbate the feelings at the time, because it felt like a community was going unheard (even if that wasn't the case behind the scenes). Hopefully this is the gateway into a bit more of an open dialogue between trans issues on the forum and the staff. It is wholeheartedly welcome.
 

Cerium

The Former
Member
Oct 23, 2017
1,741
This was a great post and she got banned for it? Really? REALLY???
The ban in question involves the abuse of a personal relationship between the poster in question and a former moderator. This is now a private matter and not for public discussion. It has nothing to do with the valid feedback in the rest of the post.
 

OniLinkPlus

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
600
ScribbleD and ketkat got banned and that thread got locked and all staff has to say is "don't criticize us in public, we have trans staff therefore our decisions are fine, it hurts our feelings to be held accountable". Literally using trans coworkers an excuse for failure to protect the trans community in a reasonable amount of time. Given how things have been going, I suspect those trans staff members are not being listened to. ResetEra staff is giving me massive transphobic vibes and I'm done with it. Ban me.
 

bulbasort

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
383
The ban in question involves the abuse of a personal relationship between the poster in question and a former moderator. This is now a private matter and not for public discussion. It has nothing to do with the valid feedback in the rest of the post.
This is fucked up and a very bad call.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,090
ScribbleD and ketkat got banned and that thread got locked and all staff has to say is "don't criticize us in public, we have trans staff therefore our decisions are fine, it hurts our feelings to be held accountable". Literally using trans coworkers an excuse for failure to protect the trans community in a reasonable amount of time. Given how things have been going, I suspect those trans staff members are not being listened to. ResetEra staff is giving me massive transphobic vibes and I'm done with it. Ban me.

On the contrary, my opinion has been asked for more than ever when it comes to trans related issues. I frequently get out of class or go on breaks from my schooling only to find notifications from other staff asking for my opinion on a particular report or issue. The same is true of my fellow LGBTQ and trans staff members. We were pretty much all extensively involved with the creation of the new guidelines. Obviously, we're not perfect. We've made mistakes in the past. But we're open to hearing feedback, and we want to know how we can improve going forward. This topic is very personal to me, given my own life experiences as a trans woman, and I want to make sure we get it right.
 

Odrion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,148
The ban in question involves the abuse of a personal relationship between the poster in question and a former moderator. This is now a private matter and not for public discussion. It has nothing to do with the valid feedback in the rest of the post.
...the abuse?
 
Last edited:

Ergo Goon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16
The ban in question involves the abuse of a personal relationship between the poster in question and a former moderator. This is now a private matter and not for public discussion. It has nothing to do with the valid feedback in the rest of the post.

Acknowledging that one has a personal insight that helps inform their opinion and criticisms should not be equated to abusing a personal relationship. Open to discussion or not, a ban like this will only discourage people from expressing their legitimate concerns.
 

Melody Shreds

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,528
Terminal Dogma
I feel like I just saw all the attempted good will built up by the staff in this thread shattered in two bans. Good job.
I don't think I feel comfortable posting on this forum anymore.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,905
The thread that started out as a place to highlight a lack of regard shown to trans concerns ends in trans people being afraid to voice their honest concerns for fear of either being banned or upsetting the moderation staff. No winners to be found here.

Months. Trans threads following the same template:

Page 1: Concern is highlighted
Page 2: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
Page 3: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
Page 4: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
Page 5: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
Page 6: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
etc.

You're speaking directly to the trans community on the forum and saying our upset is unwarranted, disproportionate. That we are mistaken in our perception. That there isn't really an issue and that the general application of moderation hasn't had issue surrounding this. While this very thread was made by someone outside of the trans community, concerned at what they and others had noticed.

You are inadvertently replicating the very issue being brought forward.

Policing exactly how and where we may express discontent while we endure week on week of being mocked, dismissed and insulted on the forum. Telling us to be mindful of those that have allowed that to continue, while simultaneously not acknowledging the issue that has been present nor apologising for the utter trash that people have had to endure if they wish to persist in any wider trans thread beyond a single post of support. To focus on intent regardless of impact. These are all things we have all heard before, in the exact threads this topic is about.

I have no desire to insult or upset any of you, and I have zero doubt that you do indeed care about trans people. Please just talk to us as people instead of framing us as intent on upsetting the staff while avoiding the very real context behind the emotions at playresulting in recent frustrations and aggravations. That this isn't an isolated occasion, that it comes off the back of repeat past issues.

Please step back and pause on it. I don't want to lose my account, I really don't. I care for the forum and enjoy participating within it. That is diminished though, when people a part of the community I hold dear are left upset and frustrated perpetually at the discourse here. That they're less vocal outside of niche threads. That they avoid threads about them and their issues because they don't have the stamina to take part and give their thoughts.

That sucks, and something I know you will be saddened by. It's the truth though, and this type of response in general doesn't help resolve that. Just listen and take onboard the feedback within the context it is in, all we really ask and were asking for.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
Staff have been discussing this internally over the last week or so, with trans staff members leading that discussion and consulting on the specifics.

We've so far prepared the following guidelines for threads on trans issues:

Official Staff Communication
Dismissing the concerns of trans people as outrage or cancel culture (or words to that effect) is belittling and demonstrates a disregard for the issues that affect them. If you can't treat the matter with respect it will be regarded as transphobic trolling and you will be moderated accordingly. We encourage dialogue and learning opportunities that are initiated in good faith, but this requires listening to our trans members rather than shouting them down.

Regarding pronouns: It is not up to you to choose whether or not to respect a trans person's preferred pronouns. We are not interested in allowing any exceptions to this, and misgendering will always result in a severe infraction against the offender's account.

Trans people are individuals: Some trans users will be less affected or less bothered by certain issues than others. Disagreements must remain civil and not result in hostility. Please respect that trans people are individuals with different points of view and do not attempt to police those who do not agree with you. Posts that espouse or excuse bigotry, however, will always result in bans regardless of the author.

Accusations that the ResetEra staff do not care about trans issues will not be tolerated: We have several trans members of staff who are consulted on both site policy and individual reports. All of us are volunteers who contribute our time when we are able, and it will sometimes take time for us to get to a report that needs our attention, especially when there are a lot of reports in the queue. Similarly, just because a moderator has posted in a thread does not necessarily mean that they have read every post in it; if you would like to call attention to a post that you feel violates our guidelines, please use the report system.

Claiming that our staff don't care, or attacking us for doing our jobs, is personally hurtful and makes us less likely to want to donate our time. In the interest of protecting the mental well-being of our volunteers, such posts will receive bans as steep as necessary until they stop. Feedback is always welcome when presented politely and through appropriate channels. You can use the contact form at the bottom of the site or reach out to the Moderator Captains. Thank you for your understanding.

As always the best way to receive responses to moderation questions and concerns is via the contact form at the bottom of the site or by reaching out to the mod captains directly.

The full staff roster can always be found here: https://www.resetera.com/threads/active-staff-roster.7164/

Wait a minute.

Half the communication is dedicated to mods being upset for being called out for remaining silent on this anti-trans behavior that's been happening for months now?

Is this the intended takeaway?
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
The first part is a good first step as it is actually addressing an issue that has been a long running issue on this site and online in general. Outrage culture, left eating itself, woke culture, and bad faith arguing are all used incorrectly by people and used primarily as a way to dismiss people as not being genuine so that they don't have to actually entertain that they could be wrong. It's incredibly similar to the arguments that people have used in the past that accuse people of virtue signalling which has been actioned quite a bit, which is why it was frustrating to see things regress on this front.

The issue that exists within the pronoun section is the implications that doing something like that carries if it's not explicitly said. People who willfully misgender trans people are telling us that they don't really see trans people as the gender that we are, that we aren't valid. When someone does this explicitly for all trans people, that is abundantly clear. However, there are times where someone will see a trans person doing something criminal and they'll start to fall back into using the wrong pronouns. This shows that they don't see us as valid as much as they see our identities as a courtesy or a polite gesture that can be taken back when needed. We have been told in the past that people who do not see trans women as women, trans men as men, or trans people in general as valid will be perma'd instantly when they reveal this, and I think that willful misgendering should fall into that category as well.

And you're right that trans people are individuals, but you sort of start to counteract that with your very next part. Staff members and regular members are not treated the same way, and it's always been apparent to everyone who posts on this forum to the point that it's a running joke in a lot of circles here. I'm not talking about who makes decisions on reports, but the way that hostility is treated as well as the way that bigotry is actioned. If someone insults another member, they'll get a warning or at most a day ban if they don't have a history. But, if someone comes after the moderation or express frustration they'll more than likely get 5 days to a week at minimum. I don't think that you all should be facing harassment of any kind, but this is one of the easily verifiable things on the site that people have seen.

The way that bigotry is handled by people on Staff is also a bit strange. There was that one transphobic post by a moderator that when posted by anyone else would have been a month ban, but in this case, they were just talked to and allowed to stay on the team. When evidence was presented of how they had said these things throughout their time on GAF before this, it was dismissed and considered resolved. There are also chats that have been shown to people about a moderator on the staff talking in the discord about how Asexuals should not be a part of the LGBT+ community and instead of any challenging or talking through, was essentially told that people could see where they were coming from, to not feel bad, and then dropped.

These things are always going to be treated differently because these people that are on the team are more easily reached, more easily talked to than the people on the forum, but these double standards that people see on top of the regressions that have happened in some topics are going to frustrate people. Of course you guys care about the site, but you often seem to be under the impression that you're the only ones who do and the rest of us are just trying to stick it to you instead of doing what we can from our own end. The users of this site are people too, and you can't expect us to take just as much abuse as you when we have no ways of pushing back against it.

It's not that you all aren't open to listening or feedback, so much as the opinions on people of staff are typically held higher than the rest. Which is somewhat understandable as you're able to have longer and more in-depth conversations as you're in a discord together, but is part of the issue I have with this "Trans people are individuals" line. I get what your point is. There are threads where people are upset about an issue going on and telling someone that they don't care about trans issues without knowing the first thing about the person they're talking to. That isn't good, and that should be taken care of, but when we're able to recognize that trans people are going to differ on some of these minute topics it can't all come down to the weight of whichever trans mod is online at that particular moment to make the call every time. Because I'm dating someone who was on the mod team for almost 2 years and had a lot of conversations with you all, I know that it's rare for more than one trans mod to be around and tackling reports. And I think you all need to be more open to the idea that people aren't reporting what they see as bigotry for no reason.

This ban is based on something KetKat didn't do. She did not and would not abuse the relationship with her girlfriend, what the fuck are you even talking about
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
On the contrary, my opinion has been asked for more than ever when it comes to trans related issues. I frequently get out of class or go on breaks from my schooling only to find notifications from other staff asking for my opinion on a particular report or issue. The same is true of my fellow LGBTQ and trans staff members. We were pretty much all extensively involved with the creation of the new guidelines. Obviously, we're not perfect. We've made mistakes in the past. But we're open to hearing feedback, and we want to know how we can improve going forward. This topic is very personal to me, given my own life experiences as a trans woman, and I want to make sure we get it right.

I appreciate the effort. There's a lot of work, which I've no doubt you probably feel up to.

But upon examining this thread, who would genuinely feel inclined to post any sort of feedback?

Banning of members frustrated with their constant experiences of being demeaned, put down, misgendered, etc—signals that their frustrations are somehow wrong. And that if you share similar frustrations and voice them, you can get banned too.

That is upsetting. I think we can all agree that LGBTQ+ members should, at the very baseline, feel safe here.
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
Acknowledging that one has a personal insight that helps inform their opinion and criticisms should not be equated to abusing a personal relationship. Open to discussion or not, a ban like this will only discourage people from expressing their legitimate concerns.

Cosigned. The decision to ban someone for an unstated quantity of time, then framing that ban as being over abuse when questioned, has a chilling effect. I'm sorry, but that's... not remotely OK on the part of moderation. I guess maybe being stressed justifies making up concerns about abuse where there are none, but maybe moderation should lend a thought to the people who feel unsafe discussing their concerns here now and see if that fits their definition of stress.
 

Just_a_Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
The first part is a good first step as it is actually addressing an issue that has been a long running issue on this site and online in general. Outrage culture, left eating itself, woke culture, and bad faith arguing are all used incorrectly by people and used primarily as a way to dismiss people as not being genuine so that they don't have to actually entertain that they could be wrong. It's incredibly similar to the arguments that people have used in the past that accuse people of virtue signalling which has been actioned quite a bit, which is why it was frustrating to see things regress on this front.

The issue that exists within the pronoun section is the implications that doing something like that carries if it's not explicitly said. People who willfully misgender trans people are telling us that they don't really see trans people as the gender that we are, that we aren't valid. When someone does this explicitly for all trans people, that is abundantly clear. However, there are times where someone will see a trans person doing something criminal and they'll start to fall back into using the wrong pronouns. This shows that they don't see us as valid as much as they see our identities as a courtesy or a polite gesture that can be taken back when needed. We have been told in the past that people who do not see trans women as women, trans men as men, or trans people in general as valid will be perma'd instantly when they reveal this, and I think that willful misgendering should fall into that category as well.

And you're right that trans people are individuals, but you sort of start to counteract that with your very next part. Staff members and regular members are not treated the same way, and it's always been apparent to everyone who posts on this forum to the point that it's a running joke in a lot of circles here. I'm not talking about who makes decisions on reports, but the way that hostility is treated as well as the way that bigotry is actioned. If someone insults another member, they'll get a warning or at most a day ban if they don't have a history. But, if someone comes after the moderation or express frustration they'll more than likely get 5 days to a week at minimum. I don't think that you all should be facing harassment of any kind, but this is one of the easily verifiable things on the site that people have seen.

The way that bigotry is handled by people on Staff is also a bit strange. There was that one transphobic post by a moderator that when posted by anyone else would have been a month ban, but in this case, they were just talked to and allowed to stay on the team. When evidence was presented of how they had said these things throughout their time on GAF before this, it was dismissed and considered resolved. There are also chats that have been shown to people about a moderator on the staff talking in the discord about how Asexuals should not be a part of the LGBT+ community and instead of any challenging or talking through, was essentially told that people could see where they were coming from, to not feel bad, and then dropped.

These things are always going to be treated differently because these people that are on the team are more easily reached, more easily talked to than the people on the forum, but these double standards that people see on top of the regressions that have happened in some topics are going to frustrate people. Of course you guys care about the site, but you often seem to be under the impression that you're the only ones who do and the rest of us are just trying to stick it to you instead of doing what we can from our own end. The users of this site are people too, and you can't expect us to take just as much abuse as you when we have no ways of pushing back against it.

It's not that you all aren't open to listening or feedback, so much as the opinions on people of staff are typically held higher than the rest. Which is somewhat understandable as you're able to have longer and more in-depth conversations as you're in a discord together, but is part of the issue I have with this "Trans people are individuals" line. I get what your point is. There are threads where people are upset about an issue going on and telling someone that they don't care about trans issues without knowing the first thing about the person they're talking to. That isn't good, and that should be taken care of, but when we're able to recognize that trans people are going to differ on some of these minute topics it can't all come down to the weight of whichever trans mod is online at that particular moment to make the call every time. Because I'm dating someone who was on the mod team for almost 2 years and had a lot of conversations with you all, I know that it's rare for more than one trans mod to be around and tackling reports. And I think you all need to be more open to the idea that people aren't reporting what they see as bigotry for no reason.

This post being banned is extremely upsetting, I really hope the ERA adminstration will listen to the concerns of the community. This forum has come so far from where we came, only to be set back like this. This legitimately hurts.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,361
Phoenix
Gonna post your bingo here cause it's really funny...and also extremely depressing

dnebmj5n.png
"Links to alt-right website" might as well be the free space on ERA in regards to trans issues.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
Cosigned. The decision to ban someone for an unstated quantity of time, then framing that ban as being over abuse when questioned, has a chilling effect. I'm sorry, but that's... not remotely OK on the part of moderation. I guess maybe being stressed justifies making up concerns about abuse where there are none, but maybe moderation should lend a thought to the people who feel unsafe discussing their concerns here now and see if that fits their definition of stress.

It's the dishonest framing that really angers me. Calling it abuse? Are you kidding me?
 

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,023
Acknowledging that one has a personal insight that helps inform their opinion and criticisms should not be equated to abusing a personal relationship. Open to discussion or not, a ban like this will only discourage people from expressing their legitimate concerns.
To be very clear: We're talking about inappropriate access of private conversations between staff members. Saying more than that would involve violating the privacy of the individuals involved, which we will not do. No one has been banned for offering sincere feedback. Again this is a personal matter and it will remain that way.
 

OniLinkPlus

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
600
To be very clear: We're talking about inappropriate access of private conversations between staff members. Saying more than that would involve violating the privacy of the individuals involved, which we will not do. No one has been banned for offering sincere feedback. Again this is a personal matter and it will remain that way.
Where in ketkat's comment did ANYTHING like that occur?
 

Deleted member 3968

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
888
Cosigned. The decision to ban someone for an unstated quantity of time, then framing that ban as being over abuse when questioned, has a chilling effect. I'm sorry, but that's... not remotely OK on the part of moderation. I guess maybe being stressed justifies making up concerns about abuse where there are none, but maybe moderation should lend a thought to the people who feel unsafe discussing their concerns here now and see if that fits their definition of stress.
+1
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
To be very clear: We're talking about inappropriate access of private conversations between staff members. Saying more than that would involve violating the privacy of the individuals involved, which we will not do. No one has been banned for offering sincere feedback. Again this is a personal matter and it will remain that way.

I believe this response will not improve things.
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,608
I've never been one to call out administration/moderation openly on a forum, except in cases of egregious injustice. This is one of those instances. If staff is comprised of as decent of people as I hope them to be, right about now they're only wishing such a thing as a bonafide redo existed in Forum Land(TM).

Please reassure me I am not mistaken?
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I'm still extremely confused and frustrated as to why Ketkat was banned. She was excellent on this forum and I don't see where wrongdoing occurred.
 

Pirate Bae

Edelgard Feet Appreciator
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,792
??
The thread that started out as a place to highlight a lack of regard shown to trans concerns ends in trans people being afraid to voice their honest concerns for fear of either being banned or upsetting the moderation staff. No winners to be found here.

Months. Trans threads following the same template:

Page 1: Concern is highlighted
Page 2: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
Page 3: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
Page 4: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
Page 5: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
Page 6: Concern is dismissed and trans people mocked or insulted
etc.

You're speaking directly to the trans community on the forum and saying our upset is unwarranted, disproportionate. That we are mistaken in our perception. That there isn't really an issue and that the general application of moderation hasn't had issue surrounding this. While this very thread was made by someone outside of the trans community, concerned at what they and others had noticed.

You are inadvertently replicating the very issue being brought forward.

Policing exactly how and where we may express discontent while we endure week on week of being mocked, dismissed and insulted on the forum. Telling us to be mindful of those that have allowed that to continue, while simultaneously not acknowledging the issue that has been present nor apologising for the utter trash that people have had to endure if they wish to persist in any wider trans thread beyond a single post of support. To focus on intent regardless of impact. These are all things we have all heard before, in the exact threads this topic is about.

I have no desire to insult or upset any of you, and I have zero doubt that you do indeed care about trans people. Please just talk to us as people instead of framing us as intent on upsetting the staff while avoiding the very real context behind the emotions at playresulting in recent frustrations and aggravations. That this isn't an isolated occasion, that it comes off the back of repeat past issues.

Please step back and pause on it. I don't want to lose my account, I really don't. I care for the forum and enjoy participating within it. That is diminished though, when people a part of the community I hold dear are left upset and frustrated perpetually at the discourse here. That they're less vocal outside of niche threads. That they avoid threads about them and their issues because they don't have the stamina to take part and give their thoughts.

That sucks, and something I know you will be saddened by. It's the truth though, and this type of response in general doesn't help resolve that. Just listen and take onboard the feedback within the context it is in, all we really ask and were asking for.

Just wanted to pop in and say that I hear you. Do we, as a staff, always "get it right"? Not in the slightest. We discuss every report we receive as a team, and ask for the input of staff who may have further insight and a different perspective. I am LGBT+ myself, and although I am not trans, I know what it feels like to feel invisible.

So, I myself apologize if I have ever made you or anyone else in the trans community here feel unwelcomed, ignored, or brushed aside. That is never our intention, nor is it mine. We have been discussing these concerns and the overall issue for a lengthy period of time, to make sure we did our best and got it right. This is why we made the staff post, and why we will be actioning such instances of transphobia or a dismissal of the issues harshly.
 

Bio

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
Denver, Colorado
The ban in question involves the abuse of a personal relationship between the poster in question and a former moderator. This is now a private matter and not for public discussion. It has nothing to do with the valid feedback in the rest of the post.

This basically makes it sound like moderators cannot be called out for behavior that would absolutely get called out were anyone else to do it. If that's not the intended takeaway of this post and the moderation action you're currently undertaking in private, I'd have to say y'alls intentions were not at all communicated clearly, at least in my opinion.
 

Maximus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,586
we're open to hearing feedback, and we want to know how we can improve going forward.

Really because anytime anyone openly questions a mod or decision, they seem to get banned, warned or thread locked? Feels more like a dictatorship than a community at times with how a lot of things tend to be handled or silenced.

Edit: not looking to cause a problem, but I think as others have mentioned there is perceived hypocrisy here.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,090
I appreciate the effort. There's a lot of work, which I've no doubt you probably feel up to.

But upon examining this thread, who would genuinely feel inclined to post any sort of feedback?

Banning of members frustrated with their constant experiences of being demeaned, put down, misgendered, etc—signals that their frustrations are somehow wrong. And that if you share similar frustrations and voice them, you can get banned too.

That is upsetting. I think we can all agree that LGBTQ+ members should, at the very baseline, feel safe here.

I absolutely agree with that baseline, Pekola. I'd actually like to talk more about this personally, but unfortunately I'm fighting the clock to get something done for school while also following the thread. So I apologize in ahead of time for being delayed in my responses.

I also think Kyuuji brought up some good points as well, and would like to discuss them when I can.
 

Ergo Goon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16
To be very clear: We're talking about inappropriate access of private conversations between staff members. Saying more than that would involve violating the privacy of the individuals involved, which we will not do. No one has been banned for offering sincere feedback. Again this is a personal matter and it will remain that way.

I understand that, and I am in no way advocating the violation of anyone's privacy, but I still stand by my belief that banning Ketkat for her post was an overreaction. Regardless of what entails by "inappropriate access," she did not name names or oust any identifying information. No screencaps or receipts were posted. What was mentioned, however, were the root causes for her concerns. If the clarification was inappropriate, a warning could have sufficed. A ban in this situation is effectively silencing a trans woman's voice.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
The last handful of threads that involve trans people and their place on this forum have made me really nervous about these important voices being driven out. Whether by ban or disappointment.

I really hope that I don't wake up one morning to see an exodus because people don't feel heard or safe.

I think people are just frustrated because the mod team was watching things progress but not communicating that with the community. It feels like the latest staff post was in response to having their hand forced and may or may not have happened otherwise.
 

Clov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,929
Just wanted to pop in and say that I hear you. Do we, as a staff, always "get it right"? Not in the slightest. We discuss every report we receive as a team, and ask for the input of staff who may have further insight and a different perspective. I am LGBT+ myself, and although I am not trans, I know what it feels like to feel invisible.

So, I myself apologize if I have ever made you or anyone else in the trans community here feel unwelcomed, ignored, or brushed aside. That is never our intention, nor is it mine. We have been discussing these concerns and the overall issue for a lengthy period of time, to make sure we did our best and got it right. This is why we made the staff post, and why we will be actioning such instances of transphobia or a dismissal of the issues harshly.

I really hope that things are able to improve. This place honestly can be depressing to read at times. I'd really appreciate it if the rules were enforced more harshly on transphobes.

At the same time...

This basically makes it sound like moderators cannot be called out for behavior that would absolutely get called out were anyone else to do it. If that's not the intended takeaway of this post and the moderation action you're currently undertaking in private, I'd have to say y'alls intentions were not at all communicated clearly, at least in my opinion.

This right here. It's not a good message at all. If a mod starts acting transphobic somewhere, will I just get banned for calling them out? I understand that you're all trying to do better, and I truly appreciate it. But this makes me nothing but worried about what kind of place we'll have on this site in the future.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,714
Our last word on Ketkat:

Her post mentions "the staff talking in the discord" with a very specific reference to a conversation that happened in a private channel in the staff server. This was a channel that had been created as a safe space for minority members of the staff. Only a very limited number of individuals had access to the channel in question.

This compounds previous suspicions that Ketkat had inappropriate access to the staff server -- she has previously (and has continued in emails) to reference policies using wording found only in staff literature. She has also contacted individual staff members with apparent knowledge of things they mentioned in private.

Ketkat has been unable to explain her access to these conversations, but by process of elimination we are confident that we know how it was done, and that it was highly inappropriate. This is extremely serious and not a situation where inaction was possible.
 

Link

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,623
the problem to me is not dissenting opinions, it's the fact that cis people with no skin in the game feel as though they can determine what is or isn't transphobic for trans people. this leads to the opinions of trans folks getting dismissed entirely, especially if the responses are especially emotional. i don't really know how to articulate my point, but it is painfully clear to trans people when cis folks do not care about the issue and just want the problem to go away.

i think that if i were cis the best way to approach one of these discussions would not to jump in and immediately share my opinion. obviously if i weren't trans i wouldn't have as much of a connection to the topic, right? so i might be more willing to let something slide. i think cis people should take a step back and read what trans people are saying before coming to any conclusions. ask honest questions, do the research, listen to trans people, and don't speak for others.

i don't know, this post is kinda just a stream of consciousness, but i hope it makes sense.
Your post makes sense, but I do see where Jeremy is coming from. I was called a transphobe and banned for a week because I said I thought "And I oop" was a stupid meme. That seemed completely unnecessary and excessive to me. It had nothing to do with it being popular among the trans community, I just thought it was dumb.

That being said, I will admit that I do not know a lot about the trans community. It's definitely a blind spot for me. Admittedly, as a cis straight white guy, I'm playing the game on easy mode. That doesn't mean I don't want to learn. A more recent example is the She-Ra thread. I'm a big fan of the show, and I thought Double Trouble was a great addition to the cast. But then I see complaints that they are not good representation because they are a bad guy, or that they are just a plot device and not a real character. I just don't understand those complaints, and I'm hesitant to post about it because I feel my opinion will be dismissed and punished. Sometimes I just don't know what trans people are looking for with these things.
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
You'd think a community that started the way this one did would maybe be a bit more... cognizant of the important role that banning people who specifically pinpoint problems in the administration/moderation plays on the optics of a response. Sorry, but paragraph four of Ket's response isn't abuse-- it's someone blowing the whistle on papering over abuse. Guess what? RESETERA WOULDN'T EXIST IF PEOPLE DIDN'T DO SHIT LIKE THAT.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Okay so here's the thing that staff do not understand.

Having these conversations amongst yourself and amongst the LGBTQ members of your staff privately is all well and good. But here's the thing. If we are unable to see discussion happening, and discussion between members and the staff is silenced-- as it routinely is-- those discussions may as well not exist. (To steal another member's posting quirk. Sorry, Kyuuji ). The internet, by and large, lacks object permanency. This is what I mean when I say the Era staff lacks an understanding of optics. We are unable to percieve these discussions by nature, and you can insist that you are talking to people all you want, but closed door discussions by nature lock out public perception of a wilingness to actually improve or hear our concerns. In the age of PR-guided apologies by mass corporations, everyone here is incredibly jaded with the language that you have forced yourself to use out of a desire to shield this discussion from the public eye.

It only looks worse with the bans and the strongarm attitude towards criticism of the moderation. The good faith garnered by intention is being bled out behind closed doors, and the minority members of your community are the ones taking the hit. You have been trying to provide context, and this forum is leagues above others, but your method of taking these things and working on them is, by it's own very nature, not perceptible to even the keenest of eyes-- and the only thing we see are the bans.
 
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Pirate Bae

Edelgard Feet Appreciator
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,792
??
I really hope that things are able to improve. This place honestly can be depressing to read at times. I'd really appreciate it if the rules were enforced more harshly on transphobes.

At the same time...



This right here. It's not a good message at all. If a mod starts acting transphobic somewhere, will I just get banned for calling them out? I understand that you're all trying to do better, and I truly appreciate it. But this makes me nothing but worried about what kind of place we'll have on this site in the future.

Transphobia is not, and will not be tolerated, no matter who it is.

If you see something that is concerning, report it. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, use the "Contact Us" button at the bottom of the page and the appropriate staff will address it as soon as they can. You may also reach out to a captain directly via PM.

Here's the active staff roster: https://www.resetera.com/threads/active-staff-roster.7164/
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,468
Coming in here to say that trans members of Discords I go to have decided to no longer post on ResetEra due to the bans in this thread.
 

Bio

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
Denver, Colorado
Our last word on Ketkat:

Her post mentions "the staff talking in the discord" with a very specific reference to a conversation that happened in a private channel in the staff server. This was a channel that had been created as a safe space for minority members of the staff. Only a very limited number of individuals had access to the channel in question.

This compounds previous suspicions that Ketkat had inappropriate access to the staff server -- she has previously (and has continued in emails) to reference policies using wording found only in staff literature. She has also contacted individual staff members with apparent knowledge of things they mentioned in private.

Ketkat has been unable to explain her access to these conversations, but by process of elimination we are confident that we know how it was done, and that it was highly inappropriate. This is extremely serious and not a situation where inaction was possible.

Maybe it's better to work immediately to restrict her access, however that needs to happen, and bring it up with her in some other time/place, not ban her in a thread specifically dedicated to calling out mistreatment of trans people and y'alls deaf ears to their issues.

If y'all do not understand the problem of perception you just created/hugely exacerbated, you have an even bigger problem on top of it.
 

OniLinkPlus

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
600
Nice to know ResetEra staff have a policy of banning whistleblowers. Still waiting on my ban that I requested.
 

Clov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,929
Transphobia is not, and will not be tolerated, no matter who it is.

If you see something that is concerning, report it. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, use the "Contact Us" button at the bottom of the page and the appropriate staff will address it as soon as they can. You may also reach out to a captain directly via PM.

Here's the active staff roster: https://www.resetera.com/threads/active-staff-roster.7164/

I appreciate the response, and I'm happy to hear that there won't be any tolerance for hate. I sincerely hope that the staff will work to rebuild trust with us.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,545
In general, I find that the meta-discussions that pop up tend to devolve into something unproductive at best.

Having said that, there needs to be some consistency in terms of how off-site behavior or actions are used as a basis for moderation. (Because that would open a whole other can of worms, to be sure.) If the accusations are true, then there should probably be action taken against the individual in question. Additionally, it would make sense for the person providing the inappropriate access to private staff communications to be actioned in this case (if it had to be anyone at all).
 

Tezz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,269
Ketkat has been nothing less than a pillar of the community. Banning her would be a mistake.
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
Ketkat has been nothing less than a pillar of the community. Banning her would be a mistake.
Well, they made that mistake. They made that mistake to cover for someone who said some transphobic shit and got preferential treatment-- and what's worse is, they admitted that allegation was true by banning her.

And they expect to come off looking good after admitting that.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
You'd think a community that started the way this one did would maybe be a bit more... cognizant of the important role that banning people who specifically pinpoint problems in the administration/moderation plays on the optics of a response. Sorry, but paragraph four of Ket's response isn't abuse-- it's someone blowing the whistle on papering over abuse. Guess what? RESETERA WOULDN'T EXIST IF PEOPLE DIDN'T DO SHIT LIKE THAT.


I didn't want to comment, but this is crazy. So if someone is getting access to conversations/discords/chats they should not have, (and it sounds like she should not have had said access) and then posting said conversations to make a point yes the person should be banned.

And it sounds like there was/is a LOT more going on with that situation than was revealed here.

So yes she should have been banned no matter how popular or visible she was. You don't do that shit.
 

Clov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,929
I didn't want to comment, but this is crazy. So if someone is getting access to conversations/discords/chats they should not have, (and it sounds like she should not have had said access) and then posting said conversations to make a point yes the person should be banned.

And it sounds like there was/is a LOT more going on with that situation than was revealed here.

So yes she should have been banned no matter how popular or visible she was. You don't do that shit.

So someone who found proof of staff making transphobic/aphobic statements should be banned, while the people who said those things in the first place should stay?

Like, I get it; it's not my site, I don't get to determine what the rules are. But doesn't something about what you're suggesting seem wrong?
 
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